Open Source Meeting/2009-12-03

Transcript

[13:50] Thickbrick Sleaford: hi people
[13:50] Ardy Lay: Hi
[13:50] Aimee Trescothick: lo
[13:50] Twisted Laws: hi
[13:50] Questar Utu waves.
[13:50] Sahkolihaa Contepomi waves too.
[13:50] Thickbrick Sleaford: wow, big agenda
[13:51] Aimee Trescothick surfs
[13:51] Ardy Lay: Sorry. Think I got lost trying to narrow it down.
[13:51] Thickbrick Sleaford: heh
[13:51] Thickbrick Sleaford: anybody knows where RobinC's media test parcels are?
[13:52] Ardy Lay: I am playing with writing a Python script to make "bug triage" lists so that's basically what you are looking at on the agenda, after I manually moved the media issues to the top section.
[13:53] Thickbrick Sleaford: cool
[13:54] Thickbrick Sleaford: hi Robin
[13:54] Robin Cornelius: Hey
[13:54] Aimee Trescothick: hi :)
[13:54] Ardy Lay: I kinda thought media was still the hot topic but I see other interest stated in the mailing list. Can we prioritize by criticality and votes on JIRA or do you like another method?
[13:54] Thickbrick Sleaford: I was looking for your media test parcels erlier
[13:55] Robin Cornelius: They are over the other side by the expo hall
[13:55] Thickbrick Sleaford: merov is preparing another media merge
[13:55] Thickbrick Sleaford: oh
[13:55] Robin Cornelius: so far its only a video test parcel as thats been the biggest cross platform gripe
[13:56] Robin Cornelius: but it gives one video in multiple formats
[13:56] Ardy Lay: Of course, I understand that you take advantage of your exsisting knowledge and pick any topic you want to work on.
[13:56] Ardy Lay: Robin, that's nice. Merov was asking for media URLs to check against last night.
[13:57] Robin Cornelius: *sigh* i told merlov about that and gave the slurl
[13:57] Thickbrick Sleaford: there's a few test parcels in Bug Island too
[13:57] Ardy Lay: I see he put his results in a new JIRA issue.
[13:57] Ardy Lay: Robin, he was fighing a media server that was sending him the wrong mime type.
[13:58] Thickbrick Sleaford: aka IIS...
[13:58] Robin Cornelius: haha
[13:58] Robin Cornelius: goog old iss
[13:58] Robin Cornelius: iis
[13:58] Robin Cornelius: mine is light-http based
[13:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Has anyone here tried OpenSolaris?
[14:00] Ardy Lay: I saw Soft moved 5 or so VWR issues to SNOW and commented. :-)
[14:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Right now I'm trying to find some OS that doesn't use PuleAudio but has GNome. :(
[14:01] Robin Cornelius: DEBIAN!
[14:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I felt debian was too advanced for me.
[14:01] Ardy Lay: Hi Merov.
[14:01] Robin Cornelius: nah it will be fine
[14:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Especially when it came to installing the nVidia driver.
[14:01] Merov Linden: hi guys
[14:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: And hey Merov.
[14:01] Johan Laurasia: Hello
[14:01] Robin Cornelius: there is a nvidia package if you enable the non free repository
[14:01] Merov Linden wonders where to sit...
[14:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Yeah, but you can't just install that - it didn't work for me, anyway.
[14:02] Ardy Lay: I wish to appologise ahead of time for the scary looking agenda. :-)
[14:02] Ardy Lay: But now it's "time" so I am too late.
[14:02] Merov Linden: thanks Ardy for the agenda...
[14:02] Merov Linden: it's not as scarry as thinking about *fixing* all those things :)
[14:03] Ardy Lay: I would like to ask everybody a question: Who does NOT see the SL green hand rendered properly on the media display here?
[14:03] Merov Linden: ok, it's 2:03pm here so let's declare this meeting open
[14:04] Aimee Trescothick: me, cos I'm viewing the webpage on it :D
[14:04] Ardy Lay: Hehe... Okay
[14:04] Pixel Gausman sneakily waves
[14:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Renders fine for me on the normal viewer.
[14:04] Merov Linden: k, I'd like to open with 1.2.4 as it went "live" as an official Snowglobe download since last time we met
[14:05] Thickbrick Sleaford: enabling the debug setting MediaOnAPrimUI can be helpful today to scroll the agenda...
[14:05] Merov Linden: how is this holding for you guys?
[14:05] Merov Linden: using it? (right now I mean)
[14:05] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Well, I'm not on snowglobe right now as it keeps locking up on me. :(
[14:06] Merov Linden: ? locking you up? how?
[14:06] Thickbrick Sleaford: I've been seeing a few content-dependant crashes that look like SNOW-169
[14:06] Viewer crash: LLViewerImage::doLoadedCallbacks: ASSERT (mRawImage.notNull())
[14:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: The viewer just freezes and the system monitor reports 0% CPU usage.
[14:06] Melinda Latynina: 1.2 is the first SG release that's usable for me on Win 7
[14:06] Merov Linden: cool Melinda
[14:07] Robin Cornelius: i think 169 is a race again
[14:07] Merov Linden: Sahkolihaa: I suggest you log a PJIRA report with the details on your platform
[14:07] Robin Cornelius: the raw image is deleted once the texture is pushed to the GL buffer
[14:07] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hm, ok.
[14:07] lufpleh Obstreperous: 1.2.4 is far more stable for me than any of the other previous 1.2's
[14:08] Merov Linden: he thanks
[14:08] Ardy Lay: Merov, I can run for about 16 hours then my chat scrollback buffer hits a size that pauses rendering significantly to add a line.
[14:08] Merov Linden: thanks was the idea for holding 1.2 that long
[14:08] Robin Cornelius: you could double check the raw mage is valid, and if not read back from the GL, but its probably bady show deleting the raw image when loaded call back listenreds exist
[14:08] Merov Linden: Ardy: yes, this has been reported by Mm Alder IIRC
[14:08] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Well um, hello Nyx. :p
[14:09] JB Hancroft: wow
[14:09] Merov Linden: I don't remember off the top of my head if there's a SNOW record for it
[14:09] Merov Linden: I think there is
[14:09] Ardy Lay: A hippo ate Nyx?
[14:09] JB Hancroft: urp
[14:09] Nyx Linden burps
[14:10] Merov Linden: ok, off to 1.3 now and the loooong list put by Ardy
[14:10] Merov Linden: my!
[14:10] Merov Linden: do we really want to go through them one by one?
[14:10] Pixel Gausman: Merov: so get busy on all those, ok? :-)
[14:10] Ardy Lay: Well, no. Hit what can be worked. I guessed you wanted media first.
[14:10] Merov Linden: ay ay sir!
[14:11] JB Hancroft: funny
[14:11] Merov Linden: yeap, lets talk about media
[14:11] Merov Linden: in a lump :)
[14:11] Merov Linden: so, I'm ready to commit the SNOW-301 patch
[14:11] Update pluginapi code so to support newest API
[14:12] Merov Linden: which will make us up to date with the internal media code
[14:12] Robin Cornelius: o/
[14:12] Merov Linden: allegedly, this code does fix a bunch of issues we've seen and reported against Snowglobe
[14:13] Robin Cornelius: sounds good
[14:13] Merov Linden: at least, the idea (for me) is that, if we still experience a bug, I can now effectively go pest the media team with our problems :)
[14:14] Ardy Lay: So we should try to reproduce the bugs we found with this latest code?
[14:14] Merov Linden: so, once done with the commit, we should go down those bugs and test and close those that are not reproing anymore
[14:14] Ardy Lay: I am running it now.
[14:14] Robin Cornelius: sounds like a win-win +1 merlov
[14:14] Merov Linden: whai Ardy, I haven't committed SNOW-301 yet
[14:14] Ardy Lay: I patched. :-)
[14:14] Merov Linden: Ah! :)
[14:14] Thickbrick Sleaford: the snow-301 patch probably needs testing on 64 bit
[14:15] Merov Linden: correct Thickbrick
[14:15] Thickbrick Sleaford: since it changes how the address is passed to the plugin
[14:15] Robin Cornelius: agreeded, but if it brings in sync with the internal media team its just as well as to commit to trunk then fight it live and get changes right back internally
[14:15] Merov Linden: I'm hoping the 64 bit fan club in there steps up to the plate :)
[14:15] Robin Cornelius: does it change the address to the way llmonrow wanted to do it?
[14:15] Merov Linden: yeap
[14:16] Robin Cornelius: great, we had a nice discussion about that
[14:16] Merov Linden: cool! glad you agree on that one
[14:17] Merov Linden: so, I'm asking for help testing here
[14:17] Robin Cornelius: i'll check ASAP
[14:17] Shawn Kaufmat: so how does this meeting compare vs IRC? :)
[14:17] Merov Linden: I spent soem time yesterday with Ardy BTW and that was super useful
[14:18] Ardy Lay: Glat to hear it.
[14:18] Merov Linden: logged SNOW-374 as a result
[14:18] Add file extension / mime type association for common file extensions
[14:18] Merov Linden: I also spent time with another resident and logged SNOW-372
[14:18] t launch on Windows 2000
[14:19] Robin Cornelius: VCRT issue?
[14:19] Merov Linden: anyway, all that to say that testing the plugin architecture with you guys is very important
[14:19] Merov Linden: Robin: I don't know but now you mention it, that sounds like a pretty good guess
[14:20] Merov Linden: that MVCRT issue drove me to the brink of insanity last month...
[14:20] Questar Utu blinks. "2000? Are recent things even supporting that anymore?" o_o
[14:20] Merov Linden: Questar: nope but some people are still using them...
[14:21] Questar Utu: Silly them then.
[14:21] Merov Linden: ehm... that's not something we say to our residents...
[14:21] Merov Linden: :)
[14:21] Questar Utu shrugs.
[14:22] Merov Linden: ok, so, lots of media work for 1.3
[14:22] JB Hancroft: It's the Commmodore 64 fanatics... *they* are just way too vocal.
[14:22] Ardy Lay: Merov, Quicktime won't run on Windows 2000 will it?
[14:22] Shawn Kaufmat: brb, testing snowglobe trunk build
[14:22] Melinda Latynina: win 2k was one of the last really stable versions. now with win 7 avaliable, i'd encourage them to make the jump.
[14:22] Merov Linden: I'll personally will be spending most of the coming few weeks on this
[14:22] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey now, demoscene is awesome. ;)
[14:23] Merov Linden: I'd like to see 1.3 with a good stable media infrastructure and stop the downpour of "Snowglobe broke my content" issues
[14:23] Ardy Lay: Yes, I suspect that mime type issue is most of it.
[14:23] Robin Cornelius: did you see the http agent discussion on #opensl?
[14:24] Merov Linden: Robin: I did
[14:24] Thickbrick Sleaford: Merov: any chance of a media ui merge?
[14:24] Merov Linden: I'm very warry about mucking with the user agent string to "mock" anything anywhere
[14:24] Merov Linden: it's sort of the reason why every browser will have "Mozilla" somewhere for the rest of times
[14:25] Robin Cornelius: i agree, but as long as we know some content will break, but we need a way to fix this somehonw
[14:25] Merov Linden: sort of defeats the purpose
[14:25] JB Hancroft: Robin - what was the http agent discussion about? If you have a text capture of it, I'd appreciate it. (We're using a lot of http-in this year for Relay For Life)
[14:25] Robin Cornelius: JB some in world TV retailers use http agent to filter access to prevent you just opening the media url in firefox for example
[14:25] Merov Linden: Thickbrick: about the UI merge, it's hopeless :(
[14:26] Merov Linden: I tried and failed miserably
[14:26] Thickbrick Sleaford: :<
[14:26] Robin Cornelius: they look for the mozlib http agent string, qtwebkit uses a different string so fails to connect
[14:26] JB Hancroft: ah, ok... thanks :)
[14:26] Merov Linden: I suppose that some, resonable doctoring of the user agent is OK
[14:26] Thickbrick Sleaford: there is also a similar problem for gstreamer/quicktime: apple.com hosted streams only allow Quicktime user agent strings
[14:27] Merov Linden: a straight "union of all possible strings" is likely not
[14:27] JB Hancroft: (brb)
[14:27] Merov Linden: Thickbrick: really? how unpleasant from Apple...
[14:28] Thickbrick Sleaford: there's also the problem that most people who use user-agent filtering for security probably don't match patterns in a sane manner
[14:28] Shawn Kaufmat: yes
[14:28] Merov Linden: o yes
[14:28] Shawn Kaufmat: thats ticking me off :/
[14:29] Shawn Kaufmat: it would good if the viewer in-browser can let you adjust the viewer string or maybe make it a config option
[14:29] Merov Linden: anyway, FYI, I've been bringing that issue to all the media team folks (who conveniently sit in the same office as me...) and they are well aware of the issue
[14:30] Merov Linden: that's something they'll need to analyze and take a stand on for viewer 2.0 for sure
[14:30] Merov Linden: so it's all good we're raising it to their attention with Snowglobe ahead of time
[14:31] Merov Linden: Shwan: letting users fiddle with the user agent is really a super power feature, not open to casual users
[14:31] Merov Linden: I remember that Opera had such a feature back in the days... not sure they still have it
[14:31] Shawn Kaufmat: true, but why take that away from users who know how to do that vs keeping it hidden? you could put it under the advanced menu even as a debug flag
[14:32] Thickbrick Sleaford: it's needed less often now on the web
[14:32] Thickbrick Sleaford: since most web devs have already learned the lesson
[14:32] Shawn Kaufmat: but not SL content folks
[14:32] Robin Cornelius: or banks
[14:33] Shawn Kaufmat: the problem is if you give them something, they will exploit it's use even if thats not the original intent.
[14:33] Merov Linden: ok, I propose to move on to non media issues now :)
[14:34] Merov Linden: action item for all: test media and log content problems when you see them
[14:34] Merov Linden: don't forget the SLURL and possibly the content URL itself
[14:34] Merov Linden: thanks!
[14:34] Merov Linden: next, there's a long list of misc bugs
[14:34] Merov Linden: and features
[14:35] Ardy Lay: Some of them people may already be working on.
[14:35] Merov Linden: well, I do hope so :)
[14:35] Merov Linden: there are patches attached, quite a few
[14:36] Merov Linden: I'll be taking care of some but
[14:36] Merov Linden: I'd like to see some of the folks with commit privileges to jump in and review and commit patches as well
[14:36] Merov Linden wink wink nudge nudge
[14:36] Ardy Lay: I have been playing with some of the cosmetic issues people bring up.
[14:37] Ardy Lay: It's helping me learn a few things.
[14:37] Merov Linden: Great Ardy! Thanks for doing this
[14:37] Merov Linden: Others: any chance we'll get some of your time to review patches and commit them?
[14:38] Aimee Trescothick: if someone could give SNOW-188 the once over I can commit it shortly
[14:38] Allow panning of the mini-map
[14:38] Ardy Lay: I use that every day.
[14:39] Ardy Lay: I do like it and it works well. I should look to see if you made any changes. :-)
[14:39] Merov Linden: I saw you commented Ardy, which is great, it gives us some confidence it's tested
[14:39] Merov Linden: I'll look at the code then Aimee :)
[14:40] Aimee Trescothick: thanks :)
[14:41] Merov Linden: There's also this proposal from Argent on sldev to be more aggressive in taking in patches that some other 3rd party viewer has been merging in
[14:42] Thickbrick Sleaford: yes please...
[14:42] Merov Linden: I already said on list that I approve of this approach
[14:42] Merov Linden: still, it's quite a bit of work so, again help appreciated
[14:44] Shawn Kaufmat: im out of the loop on that, but I thought taking 3rd party patches goes against the contribution agreement(?)
[14:44] Merov Linden: if there is some VWR patch that you think we *need* to take in, please comment on them and bring them to my attention (in PJIRA)
[14:44] Ardy Lay: I found 799 issues in JIRA project VWR with patches attached. 529 are fixed. 147 are unresolved. Many of those patches are old or beyond my understanding.
[14:45] Merov Linden: Shawn: I'm talking about patches that have been contributed to PJIRA and for which we do have a CLA
[14:45] Shawn Kaufmat: ok, got it
[14:46] Thickbrick Sleaford: oh. one of the limitations in that case is that as non-lindens, who don't know if the original submitter has signed the agreement
[14:46] Merov Linden: Ardy: yes, some old patches will need some dusting before being ready for Snowglobe
[14:46] Thickbrick Sleaford: *we don't know
[14:46] Ardy Lay: Mine is in the mail.
[14:46] Ardy Lay: Just in case I figure out how to write something useful. :-)
[14:47] Merov Linden: Thikbrick: good point though, you can look in the "contributions" doc and, if the person is listed in there, that means we do have a CLA on file
[14:47] Merov Linden: so those patches should be safe and clean
[14:48] Aimee Trescothick: it should also say in their JIRA profile
[14:48] Aimee Trescothick: they should be in the contrib-agreement group
[14:49] Merov Linden: but yes, check with me first before committing code contributed by others so that I run a CLA check
[14:49] Boroondas Gupte: doc/contributions.txt ?
[14:49] Merov Linden: correct Boroondas
[14:49] Merov Linden: I think we have CLA for all those guys
[14:49] Boroondas Gupte: I'm in there, but I haven't signed the agreement (yet, still unanswered questions)
[14:49] Merov Linden: I should chech though
[14:49] Thickbrick Sleaford: there are a few patches that were accepted without a CLA because they were short, so there may be names in contributions.txt that dont' have a CLA
[14:49] Shawn Kaufmat: hmm, im just in jira-users group not the CLA group
[14:49] Dzonatas Sol: people with contracts aren't in the contributors list
[14:50] Merov Linden: Dzonatas: you mean, people hired by LL? (either full time or as contractors)
[14:51] Dzonatas Sol: as contractor
[14:51] Robin Cornelius: but are still in doc/contributions.txt
[14:51] Dzonatas Sol: some are
[14:52] Robin Cornelius: i guess the others did the work via their real name anyway so won't have any link to their SL identity
[14:52] Merov Linden: contractors are as full time meaning that their contributions is "work for hire" I think for the length of their contract / employment
[14:53] Merov Linden: but that would be an abuse I think to claim ownership of all their IP for the rest of their life!
[14:53] Dzonatas Sol: contract is good until terminated by both parties. it can be active or inactive inbetween jobs
[14:54] JB Hancroft: Merov, stranger things have been done, I'm sure.
[14:54] Merov Linden: hmm... so that needs to be check on a one on one basis
[14:54] Merov Linden: ok, contributions.txt is just a loose proxy and a bad idea
[14:55] Merov Linden: so, to answer Thickbrick, please check with me if you have a doubt before committing code that's not yours
[14:55] Merov Linden: I certainly always check when *I* commit code for others
[14:55] Govern Overland: I have a question. Perhaps it's been asked or answered before.. Is snowglobe or default viewers going to incorperate the additions that Emerald has put forth in regards to attachment points. They've basicly caused an incompatibility in viewers in such a way that now you have to use emerald or you see messed up avatars.. which is annoying because I am a minimalist and prevery the very basic default LL viewer.
[14:56] Govern Overland: prefer the bvery basic*
[14:57] Merov Linden: Govern: as alluded by Shawn before, we can't just go on Emerald svn repo (or any 3rd party viewer) and just rip off patches there
[14:57] Merov Linden: we can only incorporate patches that are given to us under the CLA
[14:57] Thickbrick Sleaford: this is even more complicated because Emerald doesn't have a publixc repo
[14:58] Nyx Linden: additionally, the way they have implemented additional attachment points is not ideal for how we would want to do so in the future.
[14:58] Thickbrick Sleaford: *public
[14:58] Govern Overland: I just landed here sorry to go over it again.
[14:58] Merov Linden: no problem Govern
[14:58] Ardy Lay: At this time I would prefer to not render the added attachements at all.
[14:59] Merov Linden: this is a tricky mind boggling issue
[14:59] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: does the Contributor's Agreement govern only specific patches explicitly given to you under it? Or does it cover all of a contributor's work on the same code?
[14:59] Ardy Lay: I know two people that only use that -2 points in an attempt to force otheres to switch to Emerald.
[15:00] Govern Overland: Well then. if I may make a suggestion, Add a few extra attachment points the way *you* want to have it implimented. then share the open source code!.. I know.. you've probably already gone over it.
[15:00] Nyx Linden: that would be ideal, yes.
[15:00] Ardy Lay: A resource utilization limit needs to be established and implimented.
[15:01] Merov Linden: Morgaine: the CLA covers all code contributed to the viewer by the person
[15:02] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think whoever lands the job of Rob's replacment should try to negotiate a new CLA with the Emerald people, or some other way to bring them into the fold. It's kind of demotivating seeng so much wasted work.
[15:02] Merov Linden: so you don't have to sign a CLA for each contribution... but you don't sign away your soul either... :)
[15:02] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: so if a person has signed the CLA, and makes a patch to a 3rd party viewer that is being developed expressly NOT under the CLA, then you take the code anyway regardless of the contributor's intentions?
[15:03] Merov Linden: nope, that person needs to give us the code specifically
[15:03] Aimee Trescothick: hmm, you have a good point there, just because someone has signed a CLA, doesn't mean you can take the code
[15:04] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: kk, thanks for clarifying that. The CLA would be pretty evil otherwise.
[15:04] Thickbrick Sleaford: Morgaine: IIRC the CLA defines "contribution to the second life viewer project"
[15:04] Aimee Trescothick: so checking the person has a CLA is not enough, you have to explicitly have their ok also
[15:04] Morgaine Dinova: Thickbrick -- that's not what Merov says
[15:04] Boroondas Gupte: so what about contributions to snowglobe?
[15:04] Merov Linden: yes, as I said, you're not signing away your soul to Linden...
[15:04] Aimee Trescothick: ... just to be clear
[15:04] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: Thickbrick is wrong, correct?
[15:05] Merov Linden: I need to check the exact terms
[15:05] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: please check, that's pretty major
[15:06] Thickbrick Sleaford: Morgain: http://tinyurl.com/yzu8osl
[15:06] Merov Linden: why? would you consider that "Snowglobe" is not "the second life viewer project"?
[15:06] Boroondas Gupte: Btw, have you seen my questions to contribution@lindenlab.com, yet?
[15:07] Merov Linden: Boroondas: I have not! I think you should email that to me directly
[15:07] Boroondas Gupte: I thought Philip announced it as a seperate project (whatever that means).
[15:07] Boroondas Gupte: ok, will do
[15:07] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: no, not thinking about Snowglobe, but about 3rd party viewers being developed under the terms of the GPL license, you DONT want any of their contributions usable under non-GPL terms.
[15:07] Morgaine Dinova: who* DONT
[15:08] Boroondas Gupte: Morgaine, IANAL, but I don't think contributions to third party viewers are covered by the CLA at all.
[15:09] Morgaine Dinova: In other words, projects that don't want their code to be closed-sourced by anyone, not even LL. Need to clarify whether a CLA signer becomes ineligible to commit code to such projects, because her contributions could be taken by you under CLA.
[15:09] Merov Linden: I understand that but the CLA is between a contributor and LL, specifically
[15:09] Merov Linden: I don't see why a GPL contribution to another project would fall under this
[15:09] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think an english/common-sense reading of the agreement implies a contribution is something submitted to a Linden-controlled medium, like jira or svn.
[15:09] Nyx Linden: if you do not submit your code to LL, we cannot take that code
[15:10] Merov Linden: what Nyx said
[15:10] Nyx Linden: if you have signed a CLA and submit your code to LL, then we can incorporate it into our viewers
[15:10] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: yes, but need to know whether it does or not. I hope it covers only direct contributions too, would limit a dev's freedom of movement.
[15:11] Morgaine Dinova: Nyx: that's not in question. What's in question is what happens with code that a CLA signer submits to another 3rd party viewer project, not offering the patch to LL
[15:11] Nyx Linden: if you submit code to a non-LL viewer, we are not involved in that. can check with legal that the wording of the CLA is clear on this - its been a while since I have read it directly
[15:11] Nyx Linden: Morgaine: thats why I started by saying "if you do not submit your code to LL, we cannot take that code"
[15:11] Morgaine Dinova: Nyx: that's not the question. We're talking about LL-based viewers only./
[15:12] Morgaine Dinova: LL-based viewers that are NOT agreeing to the CLA.
[15:12] Morgaine Dinova: Pure GPL
[15:12] Thickbrick Sleaford: it is kind of vague: "1. "Contribution" means any source code, object code, patch, tool, sample, graphic, specification, manual, documentation, email, comment, posting, communication or any other material posted or submitted by you to the Project."
[15:12] JB Hancroft: That's not vague; just very broad.
[15:13] Nyx Linden: anyone have a link handy to the CLA?
[15:13] Merov Linden: I think it's clear actually : it identifies an emitter (you) and a receiver (the Project)
[15:13] Ardy Lay: http://lecs-opensource.secondlife.com/SLVcontribution_agmt.pdf
[15:13] Merov Linden: not just *any* project
[15:13] Thickbrick Sleaford: and "Project" is: "Second Life open source project, including the wiki documentation and bug/feature-tracking project (collectively, the “Project”)"
[15:13] JB Hancroft: (thanks for the link, Ardy)
[15:13] Morgaine Dinova: Thickbrick seems to be right. According to that wording, you can take code from any CLA's contribution to any project, so a CLA signer cannot submit code to another LL-based viewer project without you being able to close that code;
[15:13] Shawn Kaufmat: I know when I signed the CLA, i did not sign away my rights to contribute to other projects or viewers, i just cant take code from other views and give it to LL unless *I* wrote it.
[15:14] Thickbrick Sleaford: i don't read that this way, Morgaine.
[15:14] Morgaine Dinova: Thickbrick: which part?
[15:14] Thickbrick Sleaford: all of it...
[15:14] Merov Linden: me neither, you'd have to read "Second Life open source project" as "any project using SL code"
[15:15] Merov Linden: that's really a stetch
[15:15] Morgaine Dinova: The CLA provides LL with the legal right to close GPL code. The question is whether that applies when the patches are submitted not to LL but to 3rd party LL-based viewer projects too.
[15:15] Morgaine Dinova: I'm talking about LL-based viewers only. Eg. Emerald
[15:15] Nyx Linden: Morgaine: you are interpreting "Second Life open source project" to be "any project based on SL code", correct?
[15:15] Merov Linden: OK Morgaine, we are not lawyers here but I *think* it's not the interntion
[15:16] Shawn Kaufmat: Emerald can take any patches they want, the GPL lets them do so, Emerald can give LL patches but only of those developers agree to LL's SLA
[15:16] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: well you know lawyers, must not give them an inch or they'll take a mile. :-) So I want it clarified.
[15:16] Merov Linden: so, as Nyx said, if that makes folks more confortable, we can have that reviewed by legal and clarified
[15:16] Shawn Kaufmat: of->if
[15:16] Morgaine Dinova: Shawn: that's not the question
[15:17] JB Hancroft: Morgaine, is this a hypothetical question, or one that actually impacts a decision or action?
[15:17] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: I'm not making a case in either direction, but only in the direction of having it known 100% clearly, whichever way the ball falls. :-)
[15:17] Merov Linden: ok guys, we're over time by 15 min
[15:17] Thickbrick Sleaford: hmm, the pdf version is clearer than the wiki version about this.
[15:17] Shawn Kaufmat: I don't see why any of this is an issue. if you signed the CLA you can give patches to LL as long as you wrote the code, period.
[15:17] Morgaine Dinova: Shawn: wrong subjecty
[15:18] Morgaine Dinova: Shawn: you're missing the topic completely :P
[15:18] Thickbrick Sleaford: Morgaine: read the first paragraph in the pdf.
[15:18] Morgaine Dinova: Thick: kk
[15:18] Shawn Kaufmat: im not understanding yes LL can take a snapshot of Snowglobe and close it the CLA lets them, but those patches contributed STILL are GPL
[15:19] Merov Linden: ok, I'll bring the issue to legal and see how we can make clear what the intent is
[15:19] Nyx Linden: "the Second Life Viewer project managed by Linden Lab (the "SL Viewer Project")"
[15:19] Morgaine Dinova: Shawn: that's not the question. We know that already
[15:19] Shawn Kaufmat: so whats the exact issue?
[15:19] Nyx Linden: thus, anywhere we say "SL viewer project", we mean only the viewers produced by LL
[15:20] Merov Linden thinks Nyx is right
[15:20] Nyx Linden: thus, emerald does not fall under the SL Viewer project, and the CLA does not enable us to take emerald patches.
[15:20] Nyx Linden: does that make sense Morgaine?
[15:20] Shawn Kaufmat: Nyx: you couldn't anyway
[15:20] Morgaine Dinova: Yes Nyx, that seems clear
[15:21] Shawn Kaufmat: Nyx: you could only do so under the GPL but not close it
[15:21] Nyx Linden: Shawn: exactly
[15:21] Govern Overland: And bit of tongue and cheek.. when is the office ours for TOS AUP EULA etc etc.. I think a clause should be added that disallows avatar chest bouncing, at the very least the ability for each individule person the ability to restrict their chest from bouncing on other people's viewers.
[15:21] Merov Linden: anyhow, I'm not keen on legaleze battle in a language that's not even my native language so I'll ask legal to clarify
[15:21] Morgaine Dinova: Nyx: actually, I'm not so sure. You know lawyers. They could claim that any LL-based viewer is "The SL Viewer Project"
[15:22] Shawn Kaufmat: Morgaine, not individual addons Emerald made
[15:22] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: no battles, just seeking clarity :-)
[15:22] Shawn Kaufmat: you cannot put terms on the GPL outside of it's scope
[15:22] Boroondas Gupte: they can claim that, but they'd never get through with that on court (or so I hope)
[15:22] Nyx Linden: Morgaine: the part I quoted defines the SL viewer project as "the Second Live Viewer project managed by Linden Lab". That doesn't seem ambiguous to me.
[15:22] Morgaine Dinova: Shawn: LL can, as primary authors, because they can relicense.
[15:22] Shawn Kaufmat: the GPL would say only code written by LL is under "The SL Viewer Project"
[15:22] Shawn Kaufmat: Morgaine, not code they didn't write
[15:22] Morgaine Dinova: Nyx: great"
[15:22] Shawn Kaufmat: that would violate the GPL
[15:22] Morgaine Dinova: Nyx: great!
[15:23] Merov Linden: o, I've a question for Twisted
[15:23] Morgaine Dinova: Shawn: no, you're not getting the GPL. Those terms do not restrict the author, only downstream. LL isn't downstream
[15:23] Merov Linden: about SNOW-352
[15:23] Thickbrick Sleaford thinks Twisted is eponymous with this discussion
[15:23] Add optional double-click teleport
[15:23] Shawn Kaufmat: Morgaine, the GPL restricts who wrote what code
[15:24] Twisted Laws: ok
[15:24] Merov Linden: did the patch in there makes the feature "off" by default?
[15:24] Twisted Laws: yes
[15:24] Morgaine Dinova: Shawn: wrong. An author can licence her code multiple ways simultaneously, all of them with incompatible licences if they want, including GPL. Only the author has that freedom.
[15:24] Shawn Kaufmat: Morgaine, consider Emerald a fork, it does not need to abide by LL at all other than the GPL license to release the code. That's it.
[15:25] Merov Linden: that was requested by Tofu
[15:25] Shawn Kaufmat: Morgaine, but not added code, you cannot clobber someone else's copyright for added code
[15:25] Merov Linden: ok, thabks Twisted L(
[15:25] Merov Linden: thanks
[15:25] Twisted Laws: it is off by default
[15:25] Twisted Laws: yw
[15:25] Morgaine Dinova: Shawn: we know that. We were talking in the opposite direction. And Nyx seems to have answered it with the "Managed by LL" phrase. Emerald is not mamaged by LL
[15:25] Morgaine Dinova: Seem clear to me.
[15:25] Shawn Kaufmat: right, Emerald isn't at all
[15:26] Boroondas Gupte: Emerald isn't managed?
[15:26] Morgaine Dinova chuckles
[15:26] Shawn Kaufmat: any code I contributed on the CLA is GPL/closed
[15:26] Shawn Kaufmat: on/under
[15:26] Govern Overland: Well they managed to annoy me.. does that count?
[15:26] Morgaine Dinova: lols
[15:26] Thickbrick Sleaford: still, the CLA could be made clearer. I thin kit was written before non-LL forks were considered seriously.
[15:26] Shawn Kaufmat: it does not preclude me from reusing that patch in another viewer however.
[15:26] Morgaine Dinova: Thick++
[15:27] Morgaine Dinova: Shawn: nobody said it did. You really didn't grasp the question here.
[15:27] Shawn Kaufmat: im still not understanding what the problem is
[15:27] Boroondas Gupte: will LL accept patches to the CA ? (what does the "L" stand for, anyway?)
[15:27] Morgaine Dinova: Shawn: I'll explain in IM
[15:27] Merov Linden: bye guys and see you next week
[15:27] Aimee Trescothick: bye Merov :)
[15:27] JB Hancroft: tc Merov :)
[15:27] Merov Linden: keep these patches coming please :)
[15:28] Thickbrick Sleaford: see you Merov
[15:28] Shawn Kaufmat: bye :)
[15:28] Morgaine Dinova: But Nyx seems to have found the key clarification anyway
[15:28] Ardy Lay: Bye Merov
[15:28] Twisted Laws: bye
[15:28] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Merov, Nyx, and rest :-)
[15:28] Nyx Linden: glad I could help!
[15:28] Morgaine Dinova: :-)
[15:28] Nyx Linden: have a good weekend all :)
[15:28] Morgaine Dinova: You always help, Nyx :-)
[15:29] Thickbrick Sleaford: Shawn, the GPL+closed vs GPL only issues is pretty clear. The question was the corner case of whether LL can take a ptach written by someone who signed the CLA but submitted the patch only to 3rd party projects.
[15:29] Aimee Trescothick: tc Nyx :)
[15:29] Dream Firecaster: Usability group is nearby: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/43/104/25
[15:29] Shawn Kaufmat: Tichbrick: thats not an issue, if I wrote the code it remains GPL and is under my decision
[15:29] Morgaine Dinova: Thick++ for explaining it concisely.
[15:29] Shawn Kaufmat: I may relicense it as I wish also, provided nobody made changes to it after i contributed it
[15:29] Thickbrick Sleaford: unless it was contributed to LL. morgain asked what "contributed" means.
[15:30] Shawn Kaufmat: hmmmmmm
[15:30] Shawn Kaufmat: well, if i made a patch for emerald say, and i did sign the CLA, why couldn't you? *unless* someone else made changes to the patch
[15:30] Shawn Kaufmat: in which case you'd have to get me and the other person to agree.
[15:31] Morgaine Dinova: It's clear now because of the "Managed by LL" phrase. Without that phrase, LL would be able to grab a contribution you made to Emerald and close-source it in their own viewers. They cannot do that because of the wording that Nyx pointed out.
[15:31] Thickbrick Sleaford: the CLA apparently only applies on patches that were explicitly contributed.
[15:31] Shawn Kaufmat: no they would not...
[15:31] Thickbrick Sleaford: not just made public.
[15:32] Thickbrick Sleaford: I'm off to the UX meeting... see you people
[15:32] Boroondas Gupte: cu
[15:32] Shawn Kaufmat: Morgaine, actually... they would hav eright
[15:32] Boroondas Gupte: why?
[15:32] Shawn Kaufmat: because I would still retain copyright and they could use it since i signed the CLA
[15:32] Morgaine Dinova: Thick: where does it say that? Nyx's point merely means that anything you contribute to LL viewer and Snowglobe is covered, and nothing else. It doesn't mention "explictly contributed"
[15:33] Morgaine Dinova: Oh yeah, UXIG now. See you later peoples, take care :-)

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Open Source Meeting/2009-12-03

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