Scripting User group/Transcripts/2011-03-07
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List of Attendees
- Ashur Constantine
- Cummere Mayo
- dantia Gothly
- Draconis Neurocam
- flexi campfire
- Flip Idlemind
- Jira Helper
- Jonathan Yap
- Jonno Stromfield
- Kaluura Boa
- Kelly Linden
- LaRPS Meter
- Liisa Runo
- Markbyron Falta
- Neobokrug Elytis
- Qie Niangao
- Second Life
- Sista Mixemup
Transcript
[09:03] | Kelly Linden: | okay. I think we are on triage today |
[09:03] | Kaluura Boa: | Calendar is broken because it sorts days alphabetically |
[09:03] | Kelly Linden: | https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Kelly_Linden/script_jira_triage |
[09:03] | Kelly Linden: | Anyone in touch with haravikk? |
[09:05] | Kelly Linden: | Maybe if I start messing with his jiras he will magically show up. |
[09:06] | Draconis Neurocam: | GodLoginAndTeleport heh |
[09:06] | Kelly Linden: | SVC-6432 seems like a no brainer. Only trick is that sometimes the displayname won't be available |
[09:06] | flexi campfire: | https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-6432 |
[09:06] | Markbyron Falta: | not tiny friendly |
[09:07] | Kaluura Boa: | (Use your AO) |
[09:07] | Liisa Runo: | the sofa can be tiny friendly, just select from the menu to not animate you, will remember your setting so you dont need to do it every week |
[09:07] | Jonathan Yap: | Kelly, will you fix your fireplace jira-helper with the one I am about to give you -- the new one knows how to display the Summary correctly |
[09:08] | Kelly Linden: | SVC-1432 |
[09:08] | flexi campfire: | https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-1432 |
[09:08] | ||
[00:00] | Jira Helper: | (#SVC-1432) llDetectedNormal() - provide normal vectors (or rotations) for collision events |
[09:09] | dantia Gothly | has entered the area.)) |
[09:09] | Kaluura Boa: | Might eventually be useful... tho I don't for what right away... |
[09:09] | Kelly Linden: | I'd have to defer to Falcon for this one. |
[09:10] | Draconis Neurocam: | would be good for anything really, probably mostly mesh |
[09:10] | Neobokrug Elytis: | https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4632 ? |
[09:10] | ||
[00:00] | Jira Helper: | (#SVC-4632) People getting past Estate and Land bans |
[09:10] | Kelly Linden: | On the LSL side - extending the data returned in llDetected* functions is kind of tricky, unfortunately. It isn't a very extensible system. |
[09:11] | Kelly Linden: | Neo: I keep a triage wiki page here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Kelly_Linden/script_jira_triage feel free to add yours to the end of the new features section. |
[09:11] | Neobokrug Elytis: | Thanks |
[09:12] | Kelly Linden: | For everyone else - I am working through that page now. :) moving on to the third. |
[09:12] | Kelly Linden: | SVC-377 |
[09:12] | flexi campfire: | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-377 |
[00:00] | Jira Helper: | (#SVC-377) LSL functions to access the description of objects in an object's inventory |
[09:12] | Kelly Linden: | I wish that was easy. |
[09:12] | Draconis Neurocam: | Is that even possible? |
[09:12] | Kaluura Boa: | Please, pretty please... |
[09:12] | Kelly Linden: | for some definition of possible, yes. |
[09:13] | Kelly Linden: | However the description is part of the asset, so we would have to fetch the inventory asset (akin to rezing it) to get that information, I think. |
[09:13] | Draconis Neurocam: | dataserver call? |
[09:14] | Kelly Linden: | Actually I may be wrong. |
[09:15] | Kelly Linden: | I think we could get the description. |
[09:15] | Kelly Linden: | We couldn't set it, but we could get it. Is that really useful? |
[09:15] | Neobokrug Elytis: | Done and edited. |
[09:15] | Kaluura Boa: | That would be a start... |
[09:16] | Draconis Neurocam: | isnt that how llRequestInventoryData for landmarks works? |
[09:16] | Kelly Linden: | well, it would be an 'end' too probably. |
[09:17] | Qie Niangao: | is the Set problem just as bad for the script's own description? ( https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2382) |
[09:17] | ||
[00:00] | Jira Helper: | (#SVC-2382) lsl functions llGetScriptDesc() and possibly llSetScriptDesc() |
[09:17] | Kelly Linden: | so you wouldn't be able to use it as a datastore. Yes Qie |
[09:17] | Qie Niangao: | okay, never mind. Thanks. |
[09:18] | Ashur Constantine: | It'd be useful even without a setter function. |
[09:18] | Kelly Linden: | Ashur: can you give me some examples, all the ones in SVC-377 only make sense if you can set it as well I think. |
[09:20] | Kelly Linden: | Well, Haravikk makes a good case for storing parameter data for animations in their description. |
[09:20] | Ashur Constantine: | I haven't read that JIRA, but I make my own vendor board when I need to sell something for example. A lot of times I'll butcher the objectname with a CSV to say...ItemName,VersionNumber |
[09:21] | Ashur Constantine: | and if I could put some of the ugliness in description that'd be one case it'd make sense; where I had to manually set the description once anyway and not have to set it in any automated way. |
[09:21] | Kelly Linden: | There are two subtasks .... I'll comment on those specifically |
[09:21] | Ashur Constantine: | I could have 5 objects named the same thing, with different metadata like version number. |
[09:21] | Ashur Constantine: | alright |
[09:21] | Kelly Linden: | SVC-5892 and SVC-5893 |
[09:21] | flexi campfire: | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5892 |
[00:00] | Jira Helper: | (#SVC-5892) string llGetInventoryDesc(string name) |
[09:21] | flexi campfire: | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5893 |
[00:00] | Jira Helper: | (#SVC-5893) llSetInventoryDesc(string name, string description) |
[09:22] | Draconis Neurocam: | especially since you cant edit the name of an attachment while its on you and have it saved, so people would have to live with the butchered object name |
[09:22] | Kelly Linden: | You can't have identically named items in object inventory I think. |
[09:22] | Ashur Constantine: | Right I forgot about that; so that wouldn't change that aspect. |
[09:22] | Draconis Neurocam: | it adds numbers to the end i thought |
[09:22] | Kelly Linden: | but I like the idea of storing meta data or other properties in the description. |
[09:22] | Ashur Constantine: | Yeah it does. My bad. |
[09:26] | Kaluura Boa: | (ping) |
[09:26] | Kelly Linden: | PONG |
[09:26] | Jonno Stromfield: | Would it be possible to have a new differently handled property that would be settable in an inventory, or would they all suffer from the same problem? |
[09:26] | Kelly Linden: | sorry, updating jiras as we go. |
[09:26] | Kelly Linden: | They'd all suffer the same problem. |
[09:26] | Jonno Stromfield: | :( Thought you'd say that. |
[09:27] | Draconis Neurocam: | im still curious how it knows the position from landmarks then |
[09:27] | Kelly Linden: | draconis: it does an inventory fetch with the dataserver event |
[09:27] | Kelly Linden: | that doesn't mean it is a great idea. |
[09:27] | Draconis Neurocam: | ah |
[09:27] | Cummere Mayo: | sorry for getting here late... is there an agenda? |
[09:27] | Kelly Linden: | I think I should hold off on SVC-6300 for Haravikk |
[09:27] | flexi campfire: | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6300 |
[00:00] | Jira Helper: | (#SVC-6300) llStartAnimationSynced() - start an animation synchronised with a given timestamp |
[09:28] | Kelly Linden: | Working through triage today cummere https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Kelly_Linden/script_jira_triage |
[09:28] | Cummere Mayo: | ty |
[09:28] | Kelly Linden: | So, moving on to SVC-6441 |
[09:28] | flexi campfire: | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6441 |
[00:00] | Jira Helper: | (#SVC-6441) Allow us to decide which llDetected*() functions are populated to save on memory/processing |
[09:29] | Jonno Stromfield: | er, just a sec |
[09:29] | Jonno Stromfield: | what happened to start animation synched? |
[09:29] | Jonno Stromfield: | of sorry, you said |
[09:29] | Kelly Linden: | That is haravikk's baby. He is extremely invested in it - it would be unfair to discuss without him. |
[09:29] | Jonno Stromfield: | missed the comment |
[09:30] | Jonno Stromfield: | just want to say I'm really interested too |
[09:31] | Kelly Linden: | Feel free to comment/watch the issue. We'll get back to it some time when he is here. |
[09:31] | Jonno Stromfield: | kk |
[09:32] | Kelly Linden: | I think this jira over estimates the memory and processing involved in the llDetected* data |
[09:32] | Ashur Constantine: | Would that actually result in a lot of savings? i.e. is llDetectedPos always populated even if I'm only ever getting llDetectedName? |
[09:32] | Ashur Constantine: | probably. |
[09:33] | Kelly Linden: | That is correct - all the llDetected data is populated for each 'hit' |
[09:33] | Cummere Mayo: | dumb question but ... why? |
[09:33] | Kelly Linden: | The biggest savings is probably the name - it is the only string value. |
[09:33] | Kaluura Boa: | Maybe that would be useful not to populate everything.. from the sim point of view... |
[09:34] | Qie Niangao: | I'd think there'd be some overhead in having variable format event records. |
[09:34] | Neobokrug Elytis: | You'd probably need a filter like llCastRay has. |
[09:34] | Jonathan Yap: | I would think the number of touch events/second is not going to be very large, or am I missing something? |
[09:34] | Ashur Constantine: | stuff like collision() happens a lot, and sensors. |
[09:35] | Draconis Neurocam: | even so changing any of how it works could possibly break existing content, so unless it just knew what was needed, it would just be a new set of functions anyway |
[09:35] | Ashur Constantine: | but its a question of whether sim changing savings are actually there, doesn't sound like it. |
[09:35] | Kelly Linden: | Honestly it is about 100 bytes plust the name. |
[09:36] | Liisa Runo: | i guess the proper way to tune it is to make the compiler see what llDetected* functions are used when it comples, and the tunes go to the server. So that would not need any changes to the actual LSL code |
[09:37] | Kelly Linden: | that would be even trickier. |
[09:37] | Draconis Neurocam: | you would have to unroll everything |
[09:37] | Draconis Neurocam: | that sounds horribly unfun |
[09:37] | Jonathan Yap: | The server would have to keep a lookup list for every script and check it for every event |
[09:38] | Draconis Neurocam: | i feel like this is just not worth it. |
[09:38] | Ashur Constantine: | doesn't sound like it. |
[09:38] | Cummere Mayo: | thats kinda my impression to |
[09:38] | Cummere Mayo: | *too |
[09:38] | LaRPS Meter | v0.25: ((dantia Gothly's meter has been detached.)) |
[09:39] | Kelly Linden: | Ok. |
[09:39] | Liisa Runo: | all im saying, why should we decide what llDetected* is populatesd when the compiler already see that just fine, it can be automatic, and that way it would also help with old scripts |
[09:39] | Kelly Linden: | Because it is more difficult to do that. :) |
[09:39] | Draconis Neurocam: | severly so |
[09:39] | Kaluura Boa: | Changing LSL btecode is a no-no... |
[09:40] | Kaluura Boa: | bytecote* |
[09:40] | Qie Niangao: | maybe the name could be retained internally as a handle, instead of a string, and only dereferenced when llDetectedName is called... if that would save enough mem to be worth the effort. |
[09:40] | Liisa Runo: | difficult for 3 hours for a linedn vs difficult for the future scripters to the end of the time |
[09:40] | Kelly Linden: | 3 hours? |
[09:41] | Draconis Neurocam: | no its not the time it would take Liisa its the extra strain on everything it would place. |
[09:42] | Kelly Linden: | Ok, next |
[09:42] | Kelly Linden: | SVC-6532 |
[09:42] | flexi campfire: | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6532 |
[00:00] | Jira Helper: | (#SVC-6532) agent() event for detecting changes in avatar state, ideal for animation overriders |
[09:42] | Liisa Runo: | i dont see the difference in automated thing vs user settable thing, both create the same strain when being run on server, only difference is when the script get compiled |
[09:43] | Draconis Neurocam: | agent() would be great |
[09:43] | Liisa Runo: | yes |
[09:43] | Kaluura Boa: | Yep! |
[09:43] | Qie Niangao: | yeah, this *would* be great |
[09:43] | dantia Gothly: | yeesss |
[09:44] | Kaluura Boa: | That or just a function to replace the default anims... |
[09:44] | Liisa Runo: | that |
[09:44] | Draconis Neurocam: | its useful for more than animations though |
[09:44] | Liisa Runo: | lot more |
[09:44] | Kelly Linden: | Kaluura - yeah I'd love to see animation overrides more fully supported |
[09:45] | Cummere Mayo: | okay so just to make crystal clear the only thing these could be used for is to better time and clean up animations? |
[09:46] | Draconis Neurocam: | no, it could be used for objects changing anything about them if an agent was doing x |
[09:46] | Draconis Neurocam: | theres more than just animations that this is useful for |
[09:46] | Kelly Linden: | The permissions issue isn't touched on here - who should a script be able to observe? |
[09:46] | Ashur Constantine: | I think it'd be particularly useful if agent() had change flags for things we poll for in llGetAgentInfo |
[09:46] | Draconis Neurocam: | probably who is worn or sat upon kelly |
[09:47] | Qie Niangao: | hmmm. perhaps a new permission, auto-granted for attachments and sat-upon things. |
[09:47] | Neobokrug Elytis: | Owners Only. |
[09:47] | Ashur Constantine: | Could it bet setup to work like sensor? llSetAgentEvent(key agent)? |
[09:47] | Liisa Runo: | just make it use the same perms system everything else already have, autogrant when attached or sat and dialog grant otherwise |
[09:47] | Cummere Mayo: | yeah... i -could- see where like huggers/sex huds could use it too.... but in that case it would need to trigger a dialogue |
[09:49] | Qie Niangao: | (just in passing: those skirt-sitter scripts, whatever they're called, also sample agent state frequently) |
[09:49] | Ashur Constantine: | The use case I'm thinking of is say I want to detect if someone is flying, who's just in my sim. If I could attach an agent event to them and get a change flag of AGENT_FLYING, I could do something. |
[09:49] | Kelly Linden: | Well, is the pemissions needed? I don't think llGetAgentInfo and llGetAnimation require any permission to check |
[09:49] | Ashur Constantine: | Or an AWAY, etc. |
[09:49] | Neobokrug Elytis: | THat's a good point, since it doesn't act upon an avatar. |
[09:49] | Draconis Neurocam: | yeah |
[09:50] | Kaluura Boa: | Yes... No perms... That's even better |
[09:50] | Qie Niangao: | I think that's correct. no need for perms. |
[09:50] | Liisa Runo: | someone will cry about privacy, but yea i agree, no need to keep those secret. no need for permission check |
[09:50] | Kelly Linden: | This is a fairly large undertaking |
[09:50] | Cummere Mayo: | llgetagentinfo is sometimes abused though isnt it? |
[09:50] | Draconis Neurocam: | this is just a replacement for calling those anyway with some other form of call |
[09:51] | Kaluura Boa: | Ppl are already cryiing about privacy because we have radars who can say where they are... |
[09:51] | Second Life: | Entering god mode, level 200 |
[09:51] | Qie Niangao: | don't see how, Cummere. although llRequestAgentInfo() is controversial because it gets online status remotely. |
[09:51] | Ashur Constantine: | Well its just change events. |
[09:51] | Cummere Mayo: | because of svc-4823 and others... |
[09:51] | flexi campfire: | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4823 |
[00:00] | Jira Helper: | (#SVC-4823) block online status at server level |
[09:51] | Neobokrug Elytis: | Well, since Web Profiles don't show if people are on or offline... |
[09:52] | Draconis Neurocam: | or since you can entirely stop your web profile from being seen |
[09:52] | Cummere Mayo: | sorry but agent info and anything that replaces it should trigger a dialogue imo |
[09:52] | Neobokrug Elytis: | As an estate owner, it's hard to try to contact people if they all appear offline. |
[09:52] | Draconis Neurocam: | indeed |
[09:53] | Cummere Mayo: | you drop them an offline |
[09:53] | Cummere Mayo: | problem solved |
[09:53] | Sista Mixemup: | agrees with Cummere |
[09:53] | Neobokrug Elytis: | Not everyone forwards IMs. |
[09:53] | Cummere Mayo: | so? |
[09:53] | Neobokrug Elytis: | ANd some things are time sensitive. |
[09:53] | Draconis Neurocam: | like whether or not a sim is kept or sold |
[09:53] | Cummere Mayo: | so drop them a notecard |
[09:53] | Cummere Mayo: | even capped ims that is always forwareded |
[09:53] | Qie Niangao: | but two very different things, GetAgentInfo and RequestAgentData... unless we're thinking of agent() events seeing online state transitons, too. |
[09:53] | Flip Idlemind: | If you're gonna block online status at the server level you'll have to block sensors as well. If a sensor sees you, you're online. |
[09:53] | Cummere Mayo: | even if they dont forward ims |
[09:53] | Jonno Stromfield: | Would what' s being proposed make this worse? |
[09:54] | Neobokrug Elytis: | Or parcel, etc. |
[09:54] | Draconis Neurocam: | no this evolved into something else, this would not change anything |
[09:54] | Kaluura Boa: | It would change anything |
[09:54] | Draconis Neurocam: | its gotten off topic actually |
[09:54] | Jonno Stromfield: | That's what I thought, Drac |
[09:54] | Kaluura Boa: | wouldn't* |
[09:54] | Draconis Neurocam: | it would be an improvement |
[09:54] | Neobokrug Elytis: | I guess the problem is I don't understand why it's a bit deal to hide if you're online or not. |
[09:54] | Draconis Neurocam: | to have agent() |
[09:55] | Draconis Neurocam: | so a timer could be free from polling other functions |
[09:55] | Draconis Neurocam: | or anything else for that matter |
[09:55] | Cummere Mayo: | yeah... but it needs to be restricted only to the owner or trigger a dialogue when its not (except when sat upon) |
[09:55] | Qie Niangao: | unless agent() events are raised for online status changes, I don't see the point... and that's not realistic, if I understand the presence system at all. |
[09:55] | Ashur Constantine: | My point was that we already have llGetAgentInfo(), but to get the key we usually get it through other events like collision, touch, sensors etc. |
[09:56] | Ashur Constantine: | So it could make some sense to set an agent key with 1 function and have that agent() event work thusly. |
[09:56] | Draconis Neurocam: | it would only be per agent anyway, so it would be tied to a key |
[09:56] | Jonno Stromfield: | only on the current sim (and possibly the immediate surrounds)? |
[09:57] | Cummere Mayo: | definately jonno |
[09:57] | Ashur Constantine: | Same constraints as llGetAgentInfo; we can already get that stuff. |
[09:57] | Qie Niangao: | nice demo, flip. A plywood box is worth a thousand words. :D |
[09:57] | Ashur Constantine: | Its just how we get it. |
[09:57] | Cummere Mayo: | ild argue MORE constraints ashur |
[09:57] | Kelly Linden: | Ok, I think that is all we have time for today. |
[09:57] | Kelly Linden: | Any last minute topics? |
[09:57] | Cummere Mayo: | and that box is a great example of why I would argue for more constraints |
[09:58] | Kaluura Boa: | llIntegerToHex()... Any chance? |
[09:58] | Jonathan Yap: | The proposal is only to do something more efficiently |
[09:58] | Kelly Linden: | Kaluura no not really |
[09:58] | Ashur Constantine: | Not sure what you mean but llGetAgentInfo only shows us what we can see plain as day with our eyes; such as if someone is AFK, its not a privacy breech. |
[09:58] | Cummere Mayo: | ild still like to see some-thing done with svc-4823 kelly |
[09:58] | Kaluura Boa: | Bleh... |
[09:59] | Kelly Linden: | Cummere, I know. I definitely don't have time to get into that today |
[10:00] | Cummere Mayo: | next time? |
[10:00] | Kelly Linden: | It isn't on my triage list, but I'm also not sure how applicable it is to my triages |
[10:00] | Jonathan Yap: | Wil the remaining items carry over to next week |
[10:00] | Liisa Runo: | I know, when people disable their online visibility, automatically TP them to cornfield (or similar) and block all commun iocations and everything, so they can be very alone and in privacy |
[10:00] | Draconis Neurocam: | heh |
[10:00] | Kelly Linden: | jonathan yup that is how it works. Well, in two weeks. Next week is freeform discussion |
[10:00] | Jonathan Yap: | Liisa, look at my profile picks |
[10:00] | Markbyron Falta: | there's plenty of valid uses for online status such as customer service in stores and so forth |
[10:01] | Liisa Runo: | (look at my picks) |
[10:01] | Kelly Linden: | Ok, thank you everyone for coming. See you all next week. :) |
[10:01] | Draconis Neurocam: | Have a good day kelly. |
[10:01] | Ashur Constantine: | thanks kelly |
[10:01] | Ashur Constantine: | see you next week. |
[10:01] | Sista Mixemup: | thank you Kelly |
[10:01] | Jonno Stromfield: | ty |
[10:01] | Qie Niangao: | Thanks Kelly! |
[10:01] | Cummere Mayo: | ty kelly |
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