Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.04.20

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden Ardy Lay Ashiri Sands
Draconis Neurocam Fancy Detector Flip Idlemind
Ima Mechanique Latif Khalifa Moundsa Mayo
Nalates Urriah Questar Utu Rex Cronon
Sahkolihaa Contepomi Simon Linden TankMaster Finesmith
Vincent Nacon Youri Ashton


[16:01] Youri Ashton: hey andrew

[16:01] Simon Linden: Right, I think OpenSim is the current group of people working on a more dispersed grid

[16:01] Fancy Detector: Andrew Linden has arrived!

[16:01] Fancy Detector: Simon Linden has arrived!

[16:01] Andrew Linden: hello

[16:01] Ardy Lay: I kinda think OpenSim is what they wanted anyway.

[16:01] Nalates Urriah: Pathfinder is running Hypergrid Explorers, I think.

[16:02] Youri Ashton: something like that yeah

[16:02] Ardy Lay: I tried using OpenSim and it was, uhm, "not there yet".

[16:02] Youri Ashton: did see him come online yesterday for a long time though

[16:02] Moundsa Mayo: Periodically i survey several OS grids. Compared to SL, overall, they suck.

[16:02] Vincent Nacon: and back

[16:02] Ardy Lay: I put a lot of expensive hardware behind it too. It just didn't work out.

[16:02] Andrew Linden: Moundsa, in what ways do they suck?

[16:03] Nalates Urriah: I have 9 OSGrid regions for building and testing. Easier than using ADITI

[16:03] Moundsa Mayo: Well, we do have an hour ..

[16:03] Youri Ashton: aditi is a bit laggy indeed

[16:03] Vincent Nacon: lack of support, slow development, and poor scripting support

[16:03] Ardy Lay: OpenSim can work really well for building.

[16:03] Rex Cronon: hello everybody

[16:03] Moundsa Mayo: Physics, vehicles, LSL equivalency

[16:03] Youri Ashton: but i noticed today lots is laggy all over the grid

[16:03] Latif Khalifa: sounds like they copied that part from LL Vincent :P

[16:03] Vincent Nacon: oh and lack of money currency

[16:04] Youri Ashton: LL trying to break somthing?

[16:04] Ardy Lay: Pretty much everything use was severly lacking back when I tried it,, I think.

[16:04] Moundsa Mayo: Yes, it has some advantages for limited purposes.

[16:04] Vincent Nacon: poor market area

[16:04] Youri Ashton: or the servers being borked again?

[16:04] Ardy Lay: Building on my OpenSim was scary-fast.

[16:04] Andrew Linden: Yeah, lack of a trusted portable money system would hurt public OS virtual worlds.

[16:04] Moundsa Mayo: I have migrated a complex messaging-driven system from SL to OS, 0.7.2 last, iirc.

[16:05] Ardy Lay: I guess that's what happens when all the data and the simulator are on the same big host.

[16:05] Youri Ashton: OS is indeed VERY fast, unfortunately there is not much there yet

[16:05] Moundsa Mayo: It was very unreliable and bogged down quickly under load.

[16:05] Vincent Nacon: and it wouldn't help LL if they did had money support

[16:05] Moundsa Mayo: And some long-time LSL functionality is not there, and may never be, since indivduals decide what they think is 'apprppriate' for the environement.

[16:06] Youri Ashton: LL can be good, just needs to stop thinking about money and just fix things. Not focusing on new stuff either

[16:06] Youri Ashton: repairs first, then new things

[16:06] Ardy Lay: States on the web site that they have different goals and directions than SL.

[16:06] Andrew Linden: News... I don't have much. I've been fighting with some problems (that I accidentally introduced) in the code that would update the pathfinding regions

[16:06] Moundsa Mayo: SL only exists becasue LL thinks about the money.

[16:06] Andrew Linden: and I'm still working on some of them

[16:06] Vincent Nacon: if they do stop thinking about money, it won't take long to see their bankers taking over

[16:06] Rex Cronon: if ll stop thinking about $, there might be no more ll...

[16:06] Andrew Linden: we might actually get an update to the patfhinding beta on the main grid later today... dunno yet

[16:06] Youri Ashton: heya rex :p

[16:06] Rex Cronon: hi youri

[16:06] Vincent Nacon: what changed?

[16:07] Youri Ashton: didnt notice you sneaking in :p

[16:07] Nalates Urriah: \o/ Andrew

[16:07] Latif Khalifa: I'm unclear about new ban and flight level limts, RC release notes were not that clear

[16:07] Rex Cronon: i don't sneak. i tp:)

[16:07] Latif Khalifa: anyone can clarify those?

[16:07] Simon Linden: Sure, I can Latif

[16:07] Vincent Nacon: you can fly up to 5km up

[16:07] Simon Linden: You can fly 5km up without a flight assist

[16:07] Vincent Nacon: and the ban is applied up to 5km

[16:07] Andrew Linden: Not much changed on pathfinding... just some bug and crash fixes, but worth deploying.

[16:08] Vincent Nacon: ok good

[16:08] Latif Khalifa: the ban bit i don't understand

[16:08] Simon Linden: The ban extends the height of an _explict_ ban

[16:08] Ardy Lay: Seems to me I can fly a bit above 5,000 meters + terrain height.

[16:08] Latif Khalifa: what about parcels that have "ban lines", ie. restricted access?

[16:08] Vincent Nacon: Latif, the ban only stop at 100m or so

[16:08] Vincent Nacon: and anyone can fly over that banned parcel

[16:08] Youri Ashton: OH! good you talking about that latif

[16:08] Simon Linden: Not group access limits, but your name is in the "banned" list

[16:08] Latif Khalifa: oh i see

[16:08] Youri Ashton: I was wondering about a improvement in that

[16:08] Latif Khalifa: so we can still fly over mainland?

[16:08] Ardy Lay: Explicit ban (by name) seems to go to 5,000 meters absolute.

[16:09] Youri Ashton: which i needed you both Andrew and Simon

[16:09] Vincent Nacon: not if you're over 5km

[16:09] Latif Khalifa: no changes if your names isn't explicitly on the ban list?

[16:09] Vincent Nacon: right

[16:09] Simon Linden: Correct, Latif

[16:09] Latif Khalifa: Vincent, if you don't mind I'd like Simon to comment on it

[16:09] Latif Khalifa: Simon, cool, thanks, that clarifies what I was confused about

[16:09] Vincent Nacon: FINE! I'll send in my resume to LL to get hired and be Vincent Linden. jerk!

[16:10] Vincent Nacon: :P

[16:10] Andrew Linden: so, if someone buys all the parcels that surround your own parcel... you might not be able to navigate there without a teleport?

[16:10] Andrew Linden: or else you'd have to fly >5km

[16:10] Simon Linden: Yeah, please do ... we're hiring and need some good resumes

[16:10] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, and bans you

[16:10] Youri Ashton: can you try to figure out a way to make ban walls, pay walls etc detectable, like giving it a key for example. friend of me is willing to do the scripting part in getting it further into a hud system (for aircraft/boat usage for example)

[16:10] Vincent Nacon: what can you do with graphic artist anyway?

[16:10] TankMaster Finesmith: you cant fly over 4096 witht he V3 client

[16:10] Simon Linden: Tell them I sent you too :)

[16:10] Ardy Lay: Andrew, there remains a passable flight level between 5,000 and 5,000 + terrian height

[16:11] TankMaster Finesmith: theres a viewer side limit

[16:11] Ardy Lay: V3 has a clamp in it that needs to be removed.

[16:11] Ardy Lay: I did that to mine last night.

[16:11] Rex Cronon: a flight assist can't fly u over 4096?

[16:11] TankMaster Finesmith: no, rex

[16:11] Simon Linden: I dunno - I"m just fishing. But we're hiring and need good candidates. It's tough to find people with the competition now

[16:11] Vincent Nacon: sure it can

[16:11] Ardy Lay: Simon, sorry, I am not a programmer.

[16:12] Flip Idlemind: The viewer's "interpolate linear motion" process won't let any object (including your avatar) move above 4096 meters

[16:12] Simon Linden: The jobs are on, fwiw

[16:12] Youri Ashton: no no, i meant if you flying/sailing/driving around in a vehicle (any type) and you run into one of those walls, you get stuck and the vehicle can NOT move further. meaning you need to get out and reset the scripts

[16:12] Ardy Lay: Flip, that's just visual voodoo.

[16:12] TankMaster Finesmith: most TPVs have removed this limit, and V1 never had it afaik

[16:12] Ardy Lay: TPVs exist to remove limits.

[16:13] TankMaster Finesmith: >.<

[16:13] Youri Ashton: but this is not available everywhere so people avoid moving around in vehicles. giving the ability to 'detect' or 'early warning' system of these walls will make peopel more causcious

[16:13] Simon Linden: I have a little bit of news about releases next week

[16:13] Youri Ashton: and there for have a better chance of moving around without running into them

[16:13] Youri Ashton: hense my question

[16:13] Ashiri Sands: most of those parcel attributes can be detectedd, Youri

[16:14] Youri Ashton: yes, but not from far away

[16:14] Ashiri Sands: right, only within the region

[16:14] Moundsa Mayo: All ears, Simon.

[16:14] Youri Ashton: what this friend wants to create is a warning system that shows on the map in colors for example where ban walls are active

[16:14] Vincent Nacon: Simon, I still don't see any job position for "keeping Latif up to date on old news" on LL's website. Sorry :/

[16:15] Youri Ashton: this way you can plot your route easier without needing to go around all the time

[16:15] Ardy Lay: Are you having problems with being explicitly banned?

[16:15] Simon Linden: yeah, I don't think they'll pay for that

[16:15] TankMaster Finesmith: griffer :D

[16:15] Vincent Nacon: why would anyone have problem with being banned in the first place? muhaha!

[16:15] Ardy Lay: So far the only parcel I have found myself to be banned from is one of my own!

[16:15] Youri Ashton: moving over some ones land can some times get them angry and ban you. thats also a good reason to get that installed

[16:16] Simon Linden: Anyways, for releases ... the code in the BlueSteel and LeTIgre channels should get promoted

[16:16] Youri Ashton: no no, i dont say remove the ban walls :p

[16:16] Vincent Nacon: k

[16:16] Youri Ashton: i just say we need a way to move around easier

[16:16] Simon Linden: That has work with the back-end inventory system, so hopefully that should be working smoother

[16:16] Vincent Nacon: teleport, Youri

[16:16] Questar Utu: What about access list walls? Parcels that have an access list you have to be on just to enter.

[16:16] Youri Ashton: there are more and more ways to move around in vehicles, just these walls are messing things up

[16:16] Simon Linden: The maintenance Magnum branch will get a bug fix and be updated on Wednesday

[16:16] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Those exist already, hon.

[16:16] TankMaster Finesmith: idlealy you and the object you are in should bounce off a ban line like an AV alone does

[16:17] Simon Linden: I'm not sure what else might go out

[16:17] Youri Ashton: if you RP, you can not tp around :p

[16:17] Vincent Nacon: yeah

[16:17] Youri Ashton: ever seen a medieval ship poof and re-appear elsewhere? (as example)

[16:17] Questar Utu: No that's what I'm pointing out in regards to the vehicle detection thing system-whatever.

[16:17] Vincent Nacon: all in favor of vehicle bounce instead of force unsit and return object?

[16:17] Vincent Nacon: say aye

[16:17] Questar Utu: It's not just ban lines it has to deal with.

[16:17] Simon Linden: That's all the news I have

[16:17] Youri Ashton: for that matter, you can not rezz everywhere incase you didnt notice :p

[16:17] Ardy Lay: Youri, sure, I think it was in a move called "The Triangle".

[16:18] Flip Idlemind: SVC-4728 still looks very interesting

[16:18] JIRA-helper:

[#SVC-4728] Instanced Parcels - Replacedment for "Ban Line" handling of parcel access

[16:18] Ardy Lay: I wouldn't mind there being two colors of "ban lines". One for implied, one for explicit.

[16:19] Youri Ashton: no ardy, that is not what i mean :)

[16:19] Youri Ashton: for the link that is

[16:19] Ardy Lay: We used to have green "Buy Pass" lines and red "No Entry" lines.

[16:19] Ardy Lay: Youri, don't try to put word in my mouth, please.

[16:20] Ardy Lay: Instance parcels sounds useful.

[16:20] Andrew Linden: The "instanced parcels" is indeed very interesting, but it sounds tricky...

[16:20] Rex Cronon: if u have to "buy" a pass for everyparcel u fly over, u will soon be linden less:(

[16:20] Youri Ashton: indeed rex

[16:20] Vincent Nacon: yeah it sounds very newbie-friendly

[16:20] Simon Linden: yeah, that UI could probably use some attention and design work. It's hard to get it right so it's usable but not in your face

[16:20] Vincent Nacon: (not)

[16:20] Andrew Linden: you'd need duality both in the physics engine, and also in the "interestlist" stuff (visibility culling/sending)

[16:20] Ardy Lay: Rex, I didn't say that either.

[16:21] Youri Ashton: he just stated something ardy :)

[16:21] Ardy Lay: So far I have only found 3 "Buy Pass" parcels in the last 4 years.

[16:21] Youri Ashton: fly around waterhead sim, enough there

[16:21] Rex Cronon: i didn't say that u said that:)

[16:21] Youri Ashton: were alot around there at least

[16:21] Vincent Nacon: anyway...

[16:21] Ardy Lay makes a not to go look.

[16:22] Latif Khalifa: Speaking of pathfinding. I was looking what pathfinding viewer and server were sending over the wire. I noticed that propriatory format Havok assets were transfered around. That's a first. Hopefully Linden Lab has carefully considered the consequences of depending on a 1-vendord closed format when they introduced this. Among other things it will make making web, and mobile clients by LL or third parties next to impossible.

[16:22] Flip Idlemind: Does Havok have a way of basically making some objects (but not others) not physically interact with some people (but not others)

[16:22] Vincent Nacon: phantom filtering?

[16:23] Youri Ashton: but yeah, if you would try to take your ship, aircraft or other type vehicle around, it gets VERY frustrating with all the banlines everywhere and nowhere to respawn your vehicle. so a good way to see those things from distance or another solution to know they are there would be great

[16:23] Simon Linden: There definitely are discussions going on for how that gets licensed with TPVs, Latif. I don't know the details, but it's not forgotten

[16:23] Andrew Linden: That is true Latif. The navmesh data is sent if a very proprietary format.

[16:23] Youri Ashton: not asking for myself, but for several communities in SL

[16:23] Ardy Lay: How high do implied no-access lines go?

[16:24] Andrew Linden: Which means no 3rd party viewer would be able to read it without some code that depends on Havok libs.

[16:24] Youri Ashton: about 400m

[16:24] Vincent Nacon: 5km

[16:24] Ardy Lay: Vote!

[16:24] Youri Ashton: over 400m you can fly over

[16:24] Latif Khalifa: Simon, I don't think it's problematic only to TPVs. Also for Linden Lab, what if releasing an iPad or Web client becomes a priority.

[16:24] TankMaster Finesmith: actually, andew, LL is working on something for the major TPVs in regard to havoc

[16:24] Vincent Nacon: after the update, of course

[16:24] Youri Ashton: ships and cars for example just cant fly....

[16:24] Ardy Lay: 400m .... yeah, that would be a pain, I suppose.

[16:24] Latif Khalifa: When you commit to 1-vendor solution you limit yourself in that way.

[16:24] Ashiri Sands: What functionality in the viewer is dependent on the navmesh?

[16:25] Simon Linden: I understand, Latif, and can only say people who get paid more than me are thinking about it. We're pretty well tied into Havok, and they seem pretty good about issues like this, so I'm optimistic

[16:25] Andrew Linden: Debugging navmesh issues would be helped by being able to viewer the navmesh data.

[16:25] Latif Khalifa: I'm just hoping that "easy, let's just shove Havok assets over the wire", does not have negative consequences, is all

[16:26] Vincent Nacon: you mean like what local police did in early part of "Jaw" film?

[16:26] Andrew Linden: Flip, regarding selective collisons... yes Havok supports "collision group filtering", so that objects of classA might collide with classB but not classC

[16:27] Fancy Detector: Brett Linden has arrived!

[16:27] Flip Idlemind: Coolio

[16:27] Andrew Linden: however the number of classes is limited (31, via a U32 bitmask?)

[16:27] Andrew Linden: for efficient filtering

[16:27] Nalates Urriah: Ashiri, the viewer uses a Havok thing to render and work with the Navmesh. Other wise I don't think the viewer uses navmesh.

[16:27] Simon Linden: I'm pretty sure it would be possible to make a good viewer without the nav mesh features ... you couldn't edit those, but that's somewhat esoteric and not used by a high percentage of people

[16:27] Flip Idlemind: I'm guessing had the answer to that been no, instanced parcels would be even more tricky than it would be already

[16:27] Andrew Linden: there are ways to increase the number of collision classes, but the CPU costs are not attractive

[16:28] Vincent Nacon: might be a good time to throw in collision filter list function

[16:28] Ardy Lay: 31 per region then?

[16:28] Latif Khalifa: Simon, yes as it is now. But I can imagine the temptation to implemeted rigged/animated NPCs say using Havok animation.

[16:28] Andrew Linden: right, 31 per physics engine

[16:28] Ashiri Sands: I was just wondering if the lack of navmesh in the viewer is going to affect the standard user.

[16:28] Vincent Nacon: naa

[16:29] Youri Ashton: think nav mesh is not part of this OH

[16:29] Youri Ashton: but good Q

[16:29] Simon Linden: Right Latif, if it became a core feature that would be a different story

[16:29] Vincent Nacon: not many developers checking out the pathfinding anyway

[16:29] Youri Ashton: i dont even use the LL viewers

[16:29] TankMaster Finesmith: ash, you just cant edit it or view it, but youll still be able to use it

[16:29] Youri Ashton: they lag to much if you ask me

[16:30] Sahkolihaa Contepomi is having no problem with v-d right now.

[16:30] TankMaster Finesmith: ie making a scripted object that uses it can still be done on any viewer

[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[16:30] Rex Cronon: u just can't see/edit the navmesh

[16:30] Vincent Nacon: it's just a visual tool

[16:31] Andrew Linden: Right. If you need to debug navmesh issues then you might need the navmesh viewing capabilities.

[16:31] Andrew Linden: For many cases the navmesh will just work as you expect

[16:31] TankMaster Finesmith: wich it sounds like most TPVs and the LL client will be able to do

[16:32] Youri Ashton: nav mesh is a hell, i know :p

[16:32] TankMaster Finesmith: well, those TPVs based on LGPL anyway

[16:32] Andrew Linden: but some corners of the region might appear to be navigable when they are not

[16:32] Latif Khalifa: tank only those based on v3 code and listed in tpvdir

[16:32] Ardy Lay: Is there a default navmesh in all enabled regions?

[16:32] Youri Ashton: just hope you have a better time then I do. Im doing nav mesh in Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas mods

[16:32] Andrew Linden: or the AI characters might tend to get stuck in one particular spot, and viewing the navmesh could reveal why

[16:33] Rex Cronon: i think the ground acts as the default navmesh

[16:33] Ardy Lay: Rex, that sould seem reasonable.

[16:33] Andrew Linden: no one default navmesh Ardi, but eventually the navmesh will probably be computed for all regions

[16:33] Vincent Nacon: you only need to edit prims to fix navmesh issues

[16:33] Andrew Linden: there was a proposal that we provide a way to disable namvesh on a per-region basis

[16:33] Andrew Linden: however, we haven't figured out exactly how that would be done

[16:34] Nalates Urriah: Why would it be done?

[16:34] Vincent Nacon: throw another checkbox in estate control panel

[16:34] Andrew Linden: in theory the mere existance of the pathfinding calculations on a region would cost CPU cycles

[16:34] Ardy Lay: Hmm.... I'll be interested in per-parcel support. With almost 5 regions of mainland and one region of estate things get kinda lumpy.

[16:34] Andrew Linden: however the AI character navigation is rather fast once the navmesh is precomputed

[16:34] Flip Idlemind: The "region debug console" (or whatever it's called) could stand to be used for more things, I think

[16:35] Andrew Linden: and the navmesh itself is computed on another thread...

[16:35] Vincent Nacon: just like what you did with prim encroaching feature

[16:35] Andrew Linden: maybe some lag consequences, but the region doesn't block

[16:35] Andrew Linden: so disabling navmesh for a region would either be to not do navmesh stuff at all

[16:35] Nalates Urriah: Navmesh calc only happens at regions restart or navmesh edit doesn't it?

[16:35] Vincent Nacon: yeah, hardly the worry

[16:35] Andrew Linden: or to compute the navmesh anyway but disable AI character features on that region

[16:36] Andrew Linden: correct Nalates

[16:36] Vincent Nacon: unless grieffers found a new way to abuse AI bot

[16:36] Andrew Linden: however, editing the terrain will change the navmesh

[16:36] Ardy Lay: I think it would be nice for all the LDPW roads on mainland to have navmeshes.

[16:36] Ardy Lay: Those are kinda parcel-bound, right?

[16:36] Andrew Linden: and moving an object that contributes to the navmesh (a bridge or a road that was set "naviable") would also change it

[16:37] Ardy Lay: Can things move from mesh to mesh, over region boundaries?

[16:37] Andrew Linden: Well, we would almost undoubtedly enable navmesh on all mainland regions

[16:37] Andrew Linden: if we make it an option to disable it then it would be for estate owners

[16:37] Vincent Nacon: pretty much anything that your own avatar can walk on without flying

[16:38] Andrew Linden: The idea being that the SL world really will be a better place when it is navigable via AI characters

[16:38] Vincent Nacon: maybe

[16:38] Andrew Linden: we could eventually allow your avatar to use the navmesh info to get around

[16:38] Vincent Nacon: unless you want AI hookers coming into PG sims

[16:38] Youri Ashton: but what kind of AI characters is LL thinking about?

[16:38] Andrew Linden: right now "AI character" revers to LSL scripted objects that use the new "character" features

[16:39] Andrew Linden: llCreateCharacter(), llUpdateCharacter() etc

[16:39] Ardy Lay wants an AI Character log ride.

[16:39] Vincent Nacon: LL had bigger plan for AI bot but these LSL function is only few small step, I'd believe

[16:39] Flip Idlemind: Two things that come to mind are birds and fish, but as I understand it neither of those would actually work .()

[16:39] Youri Ashton: such as the current bots, stop them from walking into objects or any water pool?

[16:39] Andrew Linden: So... objects that can know how to get from pointA to pointB, using the navmesh data

[16:39] Andrew Linden: Flip is right

[16:40] TankMaster Finesmith: dont forget cats, flip, you can now play a game of herding cats :P

[16:40] Vincent Nacon: yeah Falcon want to make it possible but that'll come later he said

[16:40] Andrew Linden: The initial AI characters must walk.

[16:40] Simon Linden: There are definitely more features we'd like to add

[16:41] Vincent Nacon: or use llSetFrameMotion and do your own AI flight pattern

[16:41] Youri Ashton: why not get the creatures back we had in Linden World?

[16:41] Ardy Lay: Heh, I found a tricycle in the pathfinding area.

[16:41] Ima Mechanique: walk, crawl, or slither

[16:41] Youri Ashton: or something like it?

[16:41] Rex Cronon: and i think hopping too

[16:41] Youri Ashton: sure would be interresting having some random wild creatures running around

[16:41] Youri Ashton: local wild life if you like

[16:41] Ardy Lay: You just want to terraform with explosives.

[16:41] Vincent Nacon: stuff from Linden World is kinda... long gone I think

[16:41] Andrew Linden: Well, the creatures in Linden World weren't very smart, nor were they flexible.

[16:42] Andrew Linden: They were experiments to see if dynamic creatures were interesting enough to pursue.

[16:42] Youri Ashton: i know vincent, but there is no reason why there wouldnt be wild life around :)

[16:42] Ima Mechanique: not surprising they weren't flexible, they rock monsters :-)

[16:42] Vincent Nacon: yeah, something like Linden's plants

[16:42] Youri Ashton: birds for example

[16:42] Vincent Nacon: but rodents

[16:42] Simon Linden: That demo movie at has some interesting creatures in it, and I"m sure those are relatively simple

[16:42] Vincent Nacon: yeah

[16:42] Andrew Linden: Hehe, terraforming via explosives... the good old days.

[16:43] Vincent Nacon: I've seen some rodents that someone did in the beta grid with pathfinding

[16:43] Youri Ashton: haha

[16:43] Youri Ashton: yup

[16:43] Youri Ashton: but yeah, would be nice to see in the water for example dolphins or such

[16:43] Vincent Nacon: except it had some glowing green eyes issue

[16:43] Flip Idlemind: Speaking of flexible, does anyone else feel like the next logical step after pathfinding is easy animation of objects?

[16:43] Flip Idlemind: I'm sure that would be it's own, huge project though

[16:43] Fancy Detector: Brett Linden has arrived!

[16:44] Youri Ashton: dont need to be to many, but occasionally something on wild life would be nice

[16:44] Simon Linden: Do you mean something like that cat reading the book, Flip?

[16:44] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[16:44] Vincent Nacon: I was just thinking maybe small rodents like mice, bird, fish, etc etc could be all viewer side only

[16:45] Ardy Lay: You want "wild life" just go to Ahern infohub and enable voice chat. That gets rather ugly.

[16:45] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: HEH

[16:45] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[16:45] Flip Idlemind: Yes book-reading cats. Or...animated mesh zombies!

[16:45] Youri Ashton: no ardy, didnt talk about your friends :p

[16:45] Vincent Nacon: correction Flip.... animated "rigged" mesh zombies ;)

[16:46] Flip Idlemind: Seems to me, "rigged" mesh already exists, animation assets already exists...

[16:46] Rex Cronon: i want to see an animated "rigged" mesh octopus:)

[16:46] Flip Idlemind: The tools are all there

[16:46] Simon Linden: Yeah, that would be pretty good

[16:47] Vincent Nacon: now I wonder... when we do get animated prim rigged mesh... just how hard is it to enabled ragdoll on it?

[16:47] Youri Ashton: some random chickens for example would be funny as well. haha

[16:47] Andrew Linden: Vincent, ragdoll is as hard as it would be to do client-side physics.

[16:48] Ardy Lay: Chickens should get their marching orders by reading Twitter posts.

[16:48] Youri Ashton: it is possible andrew

[16:48] Vincent Nacon: client-side? you sure?

[16:48] Youri Ashton: shouldnt be to hard

[16:48] Rex Cronon: lol. a chicken army:)

[16:48] Andrew Linden: That is, it would be harder to do ragdoll server-side.

[16:48] Sahkolihaa Contepomi thinks that flexie should get upgraded to use havok.

[16:48] Vincent Nacon: Koli, those are client side

[16:48] Andrew Linden: hrm... yeah maybe not. There must be a clever way to do it.

[16:48] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Vincent - I know?

[16:49] Youri Ashton: actually, I think you should call up Bethesda and see if they have a solution

[16:49] Vincent Nacon: yeah, but then... Ragdoll aren't realistic, so it shouldn't be hard to have some basic physic on viewer

[16:49] Youri Ashton: since Bethesda made the Fallout series etc

[16:49] Youri Ashton: same engine, slightly different physics

[16:49] Vincent Nacon: Youri, they're not best friends.....

[16:49] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I think 3 uses Havok.

[16:49] Questar Utu: They also made Skyrim, which had more physics glitches than any game I've seen before.

[16:50] Youri Ashton: hardly seen problems in skyrim

[16:50] Youri Ashton: well, besides quest related glitches

[16:50] Youri Ashton: load old game and no more problem

[16:51] Youri Ashton: but perhaps another game developer with havok experiences? may be a solution to the ragdoll problem

[16:51] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Valve have plenty of Havok experience. :p

[16:51] Vincent Nacon: not for long

[16:51] Youri Ashton: koli, true you are

[16:51] Andrew Linden: enabling ragdoll isn't the challenge, I think. it would be to stream the results in a timely fashion

[16:52] Vincent Nacon: yeah

[16:52] Vincent Nacon: just brainstorming

[16:52] Rex Cronon: can u convince valve to open shop in sl?

[16:52] Youri Ashton: lol rex

[16:52] Simon Linden: It also gets complicated depending on how well it's integrated with our current prim linking

[16:52] Vincent Nacon: I can convince some guy who took up the name "valve" for his own benefit, sure

[16:52] Youri Ashton: hmm, perhaps we need to look into solutions simon, cant be that hard

[16:53] Vincent Nacon: but Gabe? maybe he'll trick his fanbase into thinking he was gonna make press release about Half Life 3 but talk about opening his shop in SL instead

[16:53] Youri Ashton: HL3 is to far away

[16:54] Youri Ashton: episode 3 should still even be made

[16:54] Simon Linden: We've brainstormed about it sometimes ... it would be a very good but complex change. And as usual we have to keep supporteding new and old stuff, as we can't start with a clean slate like a game release

[16:54] Rex Cronon: u could add versioning...

[16:55] Vincent Nacon: we should get LSL scripting version soon

[16:55] Flip Idlemind: Sure you could, and call it Second Second Life

[16:55] Vincent Nacon: to stop breaking old scripts with new updates

[16:55] Youri Ashton: well perhaps my suggestion about asking around with other companies may bring some light on the subject, never know :)

[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[16:55] Vincent Nacon: Youri, most companies don't play nice

[16:55] Youri Ashton: i know vincent

[16:56] Vincent Nacon: but they can bait their programmers with higher paygrade

[16:56] Simon Linden: Well, they'd be happy to talk and would want to make a big licensing deal

[16:56] Youri Ashton: that is the same with lots of residents here in SL, either odd comments, grumpy or plain greedy

[16:56] Youri Ashton: its the core of humans unfortunately

[16:56] Rex Cronon: if is profitable to all the parties involved...

[16:56] Vincent Nacon: naa baiting programmers is easier, they got no willpower!

[16:57] Vincent Nacon: :P

[16:57] Ima Mechanique: lol yeah give them a newer shiny CPU and they just lose all self controlVincent

[16:57] Vincent Nacon: I speak from experience!

[16:57] Vincent Nacon: but yeah

[16:57] Youri Ashton: just like ardy, always grumpy and making .... comments to me. But just being nice and friendly in return :p

[16:58] Youri Ashton: right ardy :p haha

[16:58] Vincent Nacon: ....

[16:58] Youri Ashton: just teasing ardy a bit dont worry :p

[16:58] Vincent Nacon: only if I added rejection button for his chair

[16:58] Youri Ashton: lol

[16:59] Flip Idlemind: So to recap, things that I think would be fun to experiment with: Instanced parcels, animated rigged mesh objects (that aren't attachments)

[16:59] Flip Idlemind: What else?

[16:59] Vincent Nacon: collision filter with List

[17:00] Simon Linden: what do you mean by "instanced parcels" ?

[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[17:00] Flip Idlemind: SVC-4728

[17:00] Andrew Linden: "instanced parcels" comes from SVC-4728

[17:00] Simon Linden: Thanks, I'll check i tout

[17:00] Andrew Linden: dualistic parcels for the privileged and the non

[17:00] Vincent Nacon: mmmm tout fish

[17:01] Andrew Linden: right up your alley Simon. You've kicked that idea around in the past.

[17:01] Ashiri Sands: FIC parcels?

[17:01] Draconis Neurocam: scriptable return timer, linked sound functions, llMatchGroup

[17:01] Vincent Nacon: there's no such things as FIC, be quiet

[17:02] Andrew Linden: What is the scriptable return timer? You mean llReturnObject() or llSetParcelReturnPeriod()?

[17:02] Draconis Neurocam: more SetParcelReturnPeriod

[17:02] Flip Idlemind: Both would be nice actually

[17:02] Vincent Nacon: like sleep without halting script on the return?

[17:03] Vincent Nacon: oh wait, sorry, thinking about something else

[17:03] Simon Linden: ah, I see, Flip. I played with something similar with that "see avatars" feature ... a parcel could be completely blank until you got on it

[17:03] Youri Ashton: thanks for having us andrew and simon :)

[17:03] Simon Linden: That was a really simple implementation

[17:04] Andrew Linden: or maybe not blank Simon, two versions: one for the invited group and one for everyone else

[17:04] Flip Idlemind: Yes I saw the "see avatars" feature as being a partial response to SVC-4728

[17:04] Vincent Nacon: yeah that should be useful for some RPG games

[17:04] Youri Ashton: before you guys poof :p lol

[17:04] Vincent Nacon: or some games in general

[17:04] Rex Cronon: tc everybody. i g2g. bye

[17:04] Simon Linden: Right, a more interesting case would be the abilty to assign a property so some things could be seen, others not

[17:04] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming.

[17:04] Vincent Nacon: no more peeping toms!

[17:05] Andrew Linden: But the objects would still collide?

[17:05] Vincent Nacon: guess so

[17:05] Andrew Linden: So you could "see them" via lots of llCastRay() calls?

[17:05] Moundsa Mayo: Andrew, Simon, thanks for your time and hard work!

[17:05] Vincent Nacon: yeah but....

[17:05] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Enjoy your weekend, Andrew & Simon.

[17:05] Simon Linden: Those are all the details that change it from a small project to a bigger one

[17:05] Vincent Nacon: you can't see anything worth seeing with castray

[17:05] Vincent Nacon: and they take too long to render the image

[17:06] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming and the good conversation

[17:06] Youri Ashton: happy to be here :)

[17:06] Vincent Nacon: avatars would look like some flying gem stone in castray

[17:06] Nalates Urriah: ty

[17:06] Vincent Nacon: thanks and take care

[17:06] Ima Mechanique: bye all


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