Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.04.27

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden Ardy Lay Falcon Linden
Fancy Detector Flip Idlemind Ima Mechanique
Jonathan Yap Kallista Destiny Lillith Rhapsody
Motor Loon Moundsa Mayo Nalates Urriah
Rex Cronon Sahkolihaa Contepomi Simon Linden
Sopherian Yumako TankMaster Finesmith Vincent Nacon


[15:59] Jonathan Yap: Ardy, you can still tip me if you want :)

[15:59] Ardy Lay repeats for Andrew's amusement.

[15:59] Vincent Nacon: since when poker become a bribe?

[16:00] Kallista Destiny: I'm Shocked, Shocked do you hear, to discover that there is gambling in this establishment.

[16:00] Ardy Lay: I don't see any cards, just money.

[16:00] Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group

[16:00] Vincent Nacon: and Andrew get large stack of money at his side

[16:00] Ardy Lay: Hehe

[16:00] Ardy Lay: Oooh

[16:00] Ardy Lay: That is a STACK

[16:00] Ima Mechanique: that bribe was less than subtle lol

[16:00] Andrew Linden: I'm RICH!

[16:00] Ardy Lay: Oh wait, that's a registered trademark.

[16:00] Kallista Destiny: We have a deal for you that you can't refuse

[16:01] Andrew Linden: Ha! Philip Linden's face is on the $100

[16:01] Andrew Linden: hey, now I can't see

[16:01] Vincent Nacon: there, now Andrew's face is blocked

[16:01] Andrew Linden: the piles are too high

[16:01] Vincent Nacon: are you complaining?

[16:01] Ima Mechanique: Andrew is facing a heap-stack collision

[16:01] Ardy Lay: Dig the serial number on that bill.

[16:01] Fancy Detector: Simon Linden has arrived!

[16:01] Andrew Linden: good point, I'm rich after all

[16:01] Jonathan Yap: oups, I see duplicate UUIDs :p

[16:02] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[16:02] Andrew Linden: So news...

[16:02] Ardy Lay: THey are all the same. That's how you know the are authentic.

[16:03] Vincent Nacon: yup

[16:03] TankMaster Finesmith: i think andrew is winning

[16:03] Vincent Nacon: made those dollar textures

[16:03] Andrew Linden: I realize I don't have much... I'm working on pathfinding but didn't get much done this week.

[16:03] Andrew Linden: I'm currently tracking down a file permissions problem between the simulator and some web service that want to write to the same dir

[16:04] Vincent Nacon: because of the unexpected maintenance yestorday?

[16:04] Kallista Destiny: I *can't imagine why

[16:04] Andrew Linden: that is, I tracked down the problem, now I've got to come up with a way to fix it.

[16:04] Andrew Linden: No, that "unscheduled maintenance" was at the network layer

[16:04] Vincent Nacon: k

[16:04] TankMaster Finesmith: tell the web service to bugger off :D

[16:04] Andrew Linden: but I don't know the details

[16:04] Andrew Linden: er, network or hardware layer

[16:05] Ardy Lay: Should hire me to run that. I used to manage a metro-ethernet.

[16:05] Andrew Linden: as far as I know it was all centered at a particular colocation facility

[16:05] Vincent Nacon: I figured it was hardware since it was down for a while

[16:05] Ardy Lay: Ah, colocation facilitie issues are second in line to backhoe fade.

[16:05] Ima Mechanique: Steven Linden told us a little about it at Oskar's UG yesterday, so it will be in the chat log

[16:06] Andrew Linden: Ardy, do you live in SF, Seattle, Bostor, or Virginia/DC area?

[16:06] Motor Loon: Steven the engineer releaser

[16:06] Andrew Linden: er.. Boston

[16:06] Ardy Lay: Andrew, not yet.

[16:06] Rex Cronon: hello everybody

[16:06] Jonathan Yap: LL has a lot of job postings right now

[16:06] Ardy Lay: Interesting

[16:06] Kallista Destiny: Baston?

[16:07] Simon Linden: Bawston

[16:07] Kallista Destiny: Where Haaavad is?

[16:07] Andrew Linden: These days we pretty much only hire within the main offices, not many in remote locations.

[16:07] Rex Cronon: just when i missed oskars oh, something intresting happened?

[16:07] Vincent Nacon:

[16:07] Moundsa Mayo: Beantown! YUMMM!

[16:07] Vincent Nacon: mostly programmers

[16:08] Ardy Lay: I-R-!-CODER

[16:08] Moundsa Mayo: Programmers? Hey, I wrote in COBOL before it was Object Oriented!

[16:08] Ima Mechanique: hehe the US is a little too far for me to even think about applying

[16:08] Andrew Linden: But if you're in one of those areas, or know someone qualified then they should look on the list of employment opportunities.

[16:08] Ardy Lay: I am an infrastructure engineer.

[16:08] Vincent Nacon: I'd have to move across USA

[16:09] Jonathan Yap: Is the table open yet?

[16:09] Ima Mechanique: COBOL got object oriiented?

[16:09] Andrew Linden: We definitely have more work than people to get it done.

[16:09] Vincent Nacon: no, it's flooded with cash

[16:09] Ardy Lay: I think you farm out all the hardware work.

[16:09] Andrew Linden: Simon, if you have any news go ahead. I'm all done.

[16:09] Ardy Lay: I do everything from antennas to optical fiber

[16:10] Moundsa Mayo: Ima, it must have, being as it's still around B^P

[16:10] Andrew Linden: ok Jonathan, I guess the table is open.

[16:10] Vincent Nacon: maybe Simon can't hear you around your stacks of cash

[16:10] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, I was wondering if you could tell us a little how the upload avatar works

[16:11] Jonathan Yap: vwr-28841

[16:11] JIRA-helper:

[#VWR-28841] Blocking Asset Avatar prevents future uploads

[16:11] Simon Linden: I was quiet, just counting it

[16:11] Kallista Destiny: 23KL$

[16:12] Flip Idlemind: Ugh, the JIRA takes 5 minutes to load for me because of "Google analytics"

[16:12] Vincent Nacon: yup, 23,200L$ on the pile

[16:12] Andrew Linden: Hrm... I'll have to read more of that jira to see if I know anything about it...

[16:12] Andrew Linden reads

[16:12] Simon Linden: That bug came up in a meeting recently and both Kelly and I were mystified by it

[16:12] Vincent Nacon: surprised you don't block Google analytic yet

[16:13] Simon Linden: Here's what we think ... the AV does not really exist from the sim point of view

[16:13] Vincent Nacon: agent or child agent?

[16:13] Andrew Linden: What is an "upload avatar"?

[16:13] Simon Linden: But the viewer fakes itself out and creates this non-existing avatar in the region, as it sees it, so that it can draw clothing on it for the preview images

[16:13] Vincent Nacon: wait what?

[16:13] Vincent Nacon: O-o

[16:14] Flip Idlemind: Hmm I've never heard of this. Maybe it's an (unintentional) representation of what textures / animations get preview-ed on

[16:14] Simon Linden: However, it appears some of the info about this is not being filtered correct out of viewer to sim messages

[16:14] Motor Loon: sounds like a freaking joke dont it

[16:14] Ardy Lay: llGetAgentList

[16:14] Ardy Lay: See if it's there

[16:15] Jonathan Yap: hmmm, the jira says if you block it you cannot upload/preview any more, but then Whirly did some tests and the UUID keeps changing

[16:15] Simon Linden: well, it sounds like a lot of trickery to get an AV with clothing drawn on the viewer

[16:15] Rex Cronon: hi

[16:15] Motor Loon: Mabye it's "the ghost in the machine"

[16:15] Vincent Nacon: heya

[16:15] Andrew Linden: Ah I see.

[16:15] Sopherian Yumako grabs all the money and runs

[16:15] Jonathan Yap: So if the UUID is always different then the block shouldn't apply

[16:15] Ardy Lay: What viewer is creating this ghost?

[16:16] Jonathan Yap: There would not be a match

[16:16] Simon Linden: So that's all I know about it ... if someone who knows more about viewer code figures out more, I'd love to learn

[16:16] Jonathan Yap: Ardy, when you have the image preview floater showing it appears

[16:16] TankMaster Finesmith: i know with the radiar we use, we have to add in hacks to remove displaying a messagt "(???)(???) had entered the region" when someone uploads an image on the same region you are on

[16:16] Vincent Nacon: I'd like to know what's this "upload avatar" is all about.... might not be as it sounds

[16:16] Flip Idlemind: I have the upload texture preview window open, and I do see an unidentified agent at the southwest corner

[16:17] Flip Idlemind: And on my nearby list, an agent with just a UUID for a name

[16:17] Rex Cronon: ninjas?

[16:17] Simon Linden: On your mini-map, Flip?

[16:17] Flip Idlemind: Yes

[16:17] TankMaster Finesmith: and we also foud out if someone adds that tot he mute list, they cant upload and it brakes baking

[16:17] Motor Loon: its local or actually on the sim?

[16:17] Simon Linden: It's local

[16:17] Flip Idlemind: And when I mouse over it on my minimap, no name pops up

[16:17] Jonathan Yap: The agent count numbers do not change

[16:17] Flip Idlemind: Just the name of the sim

[16:17] Simon Linden: I don't see it on the minimap nor in the AV list

[16:18] Jonathan Yap: Simon, are you on the most recent viewer?

[16:18] TankMaster Finesmith: its hidden from that

[16:18] Andrew Linden: The key being generated for that "appearance preview avatar" is just bogus. It is probably using LLUUID::generate() to get some non-zero value.

[16:18] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Aha

[16:18] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Normal viewer shows it in the minimap.

[16:18] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: (I'm on viewer-development)

[16:18] Andrew Linden: Which is why two distinct clients would see different id's

[16:18] Andrew Linden: The real bug is that the preview avatar is actually rendered in the world-frame

[16:18] Flip Idlemind: I'm on a semi-up-to-date viewer...I couldn't bring myself to FUI-ize my viewer

[16:19] Andrew Linden: it is supposed to only be rendered in some side-buffers used to generate the appearance preview images

[16:19] Ardy Lay: Heh, okay, now, next question:

[16:19] Motor Loon: bugs... kill'em with Fire

[16:19] Rex Cronon: so this temp ave is created by the viewer to serve just as temp storage of the textures your own ave is using?

[16:19] Ardy Lay: Can we change the location of this apparition and use it to preview wearbles?

[16:19] Flip Idlemind: Closing the texture preview window made ghost-guy go away

[16:20] Flip Idlemind: Oooh that's a cool idea

[16:20] Simon Linden: It's used for rendering, Rex

[16:20] Ardy Lay: I know, viewer issue.

[16:20] Moundsa Mayo: Thunderstorms - gotta log off. Hope chat log will be posted B^)

[16:20] Andrew Linden: I'll ask Richard Linden if he wants to comment on VWR-28841

[16:20] Flip Idlemind: Free clothing model?

[16:20] Ardy Lay: Just me and my shadow ...

[16:20] Simon Linden: It actually seems like a good idea, if it can be sandboxed enough to keep it off the minimap

[16:20] Jonathan Yap: The inworld avatar does not send out a bake; it is just a cloud

[16:20] Simon Linden: Also, the viewer makes some requests to the sim about that AV that need to be blocked

[16:21] Ardy Lay: You know what? This place just keep getting weirder. ;-)

[16:21] Vincent Nacon: you'll have me to thank for it

[16:21] Jonathan Yap: Simon, Oz and I suspect that a recent change to the nearby list code, which the minimap now uses, is responsible for it showing in the LL viewer. This is almost the same code FS has had around for some time, so they have seen this for much longer

[16:21] Simon Linden: That makes sense

[16:22] Ardy Lay: Blame hackers!

[16:22] Ardy Lay: Heh

[16:22] Ardy Lay: Well, people will take that wrong.

[16:22] Jonathan Yap: That nearby list code was to deal with the new avatar height value the simulator sends for avatars > 255 * 4

[16:23] Rex Cronon: if the viewer could mark this temp ave as non-renderable...

[16:23] Jonathan Yap: we could special case an avatar at 0 0 0 with odd attributes

[16:24] Jonathan Yap: does it have a rezz day?

[16:24] Kallista Destiny: No because some people end up at 0,0,0 under wierd onditions

[16:24] Ardy Lay: now

[16:24] TankMaster Finesmith: @ jonathan, we used to see it via the bridge attachment scrpt, but weve added code so the user no longer sees it

[16:24] Ardy Lay: Oh, yeah, lots of bots that need updated get stuck at 0,0,0

[16:25] Simon Linden: The viewer just needs to put it's UUID somewhere and then we check that for the various places it should block

[16:25] Simon Linden: I think it makes requests to the sim, for example, to check online status

[16:25] Simon Linden: ... for that non-existing AV

[16:25] Simon Linden: So it's wasting some bandwidth and server CPU

[16:25] Motor Loon: wasteful but not really hurtful eh?

[16:25] Simon Linden: Not enough to cause big problems, no

[16:26] TankMaster Finesmith: also, jonathan, dont mute that when you see it on the nearby list... you wont be able to upload anything more :P

[16:26] Jonathan Yap: You can have more than 1 upload floater open at once, makes it trickier to special case the UUIDs

[16:26] Rex Cronon: so if u have 60 avatars in a sim, each one can get a double?

[16:26] Simon Linden: yuck, it'll need a list then

[16:26] Simon Linden: More than one, apparently

[16:27] Jonathan Yap: What UUID is the block code seeeing? As WHirly's tests was showing different UUIDs, so blocking one should not affects others

[16:27] Flip Idlemind: Just need to figure out / invent a way to do tell if an agent is "real"

[16:27] Flip Idlemind: to tell*

[16:27] Rex Cronon: ask for money

[16:28] Ima Mechanique: sounds like you'll be creating a disinterested list

[16:28] Flip Idlemind: (I'm gonna call the thing we're talking about "ghost guy")

[16:28] Flip Idlemind: Someone mentioned something about a rez day

[16:28] Flip Idlemind: Ghost guy's age was "N/A" on my nearby list

[16:28] Rex Cronon: body double?

[16:28] Vincent Nacon: yeah same here

[16:28] Jonathan Yap: if this thing has no rezz day then it can be special cased (not displayed)

[16:28] Vincent Nacon: psi.merlin

[16:29] Vincent Nacon: and Jane1

[16:29] Jonathan Yap: but...rez dates don't load immediately, the server has to send that data out of band

[16:29] Ardy Lay: Name it Manequin Ghost.

[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[16:30] Simon Linden: I think that's the kind of info it's trying to fetch, but won't succeed because they don't exist

[16:30] Ardy Lay: Looks like it's tripping the Ruth Timer too.

[16:31] Rex Cronon: where is double/ghost created in the viewer code?

[16:31] Jonathan Yap: Rex, start looking in the image preview area

[16:31] Rex Cronon: why not put it a special lits, or global var

[16:31] Ardy Lay: THat avatar mesh does wear the texture I am previewing.

[16:31] Andrew Linden: The bogus avatar has been added to the list of real avatar instances, so it is triggering codepaths designed for real avatars.

[16:32] Rex Cronon: than u just look at global var and if the same one with the one displayed...

[16:32] Andrew Linden: It should probably just go on a separate list.

[16:32] Rex Cronon: special list*

[16:32] Simon Linden: Right, this doesn't seem like something that can't be fixed ... it's just a strange hacky feature that has some odd ways of appearing

[16:33] Andrew Linden: Any other topics?

[16:33] Rex Cronon: if u put in global list or var than other parts of the viewer can very fast id it for what it is

[16:33] Flip Idlemind: So...this JIRA describes a pretty serious problem in my opinion, but it's marked as "Won't Finish" for some reason

[16:33] Flip Idlemind: SVC-2743

[16:33] JIRA-helper:

[#SVC-2743] Attachment is attached in viewer, detached on server after TP with high attached prim count

[16:34] Simon Linden: Right rex - or have a routine somewhere like isMysteryGhostAV(const LLUUID & id);

[16:34] Rex Cronon: yes

[16:34] Vincent Nacon: Andrew, do you think CEO or whomever the charge of the development lead could allow vehicle API development after pathfinding project?

[16:35] Ardy Lay: Or unclamp it's position and put it back at -32767,-32767,-32767

[16:35] Andrew Linden: No, because then you need to add that isMysteryGhostAv( avatar->getID() ) in a whole bunch of code

[16:35] Andrew Linden: best to just make sure it never shows up on the regular avatar list

[16:35] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, the call only really needs to be made when trying to block someone

[16:35] Simon Linden: well, we need to filter it at some points ... the viewer shouldn't be asking the sim about it's presence or info

[16:35] Ardy Lay: Yeah

[16:35] Ardy Lay: Filtering on that position was kinda knaff

[16:35] Jonathan Yap: the other place to filter would be in the nearby list code

[16:36] Andrew Linden: put an assert(!isMysteryGhostAv(avatar->getID()) in one of the places where the main avatar list is processed

[16:36] Rex Cronon: u have in viewer an object for avatar, and a new bool var to it named is

[16:36] Jonathan Yap: that would catch it before it got to the block code

[16:36] Rex Cronon: isGost

[16:36] Rex Cronon: isGhost*, and for each object u check it to

[16:37] Ardy Lay: No idea how many places that would be in

[16:37] Rex Cronon: add a new bool*

[16:37] Rex Cronon: boolean*

[16:37] Jonathan Yap: I think enough has been said, let's move on before time runs out

[16:38] Flip Idlemind: Yes. So, SVC-2743?

[16:38] Flip Idlemind: "Attachment is attached in viewer, detached on server after TP with high attached prim count "

[16:38] Simon Linden: Is that a new one?

[16:38] Flip Idlemind: No, in fact

[16:39] Simon Linden: nope, it goes back to 2007

[16:39] Flip Idlemind: It's really old, and marked as "Won't Finish"

[16:39] Vincent Nacon: Andrew, do you think CEO or whomever the charge of the development lead could allow vehicle API development after pathfinding project?

[16:39] Flip Idlemind: But it definitely still happens

[16:39] Andrew Linden: It looks like we did a jira migration and it was closed then

[16:39] Andrew Linden: but not reopened yet.

[16:40] Andrew Linden: When was the last time someone here saw that bug?

[16:40] Simon Linden: There's a comment in Jan 2012

[16:40] Andrew Linden: We recently (finally) deployed the code cleanup around region crossings

[16:40] Andrew Linden: only last week?

[16:41] Andrew Linden: I'm wondering if this bug still shows up after that deploy.

[16:41] Andrew Linden: or maybe that is still in RC?

[16:41] Ardy Lay: void LLModelPreview::createPreviewAvatar( void )

[16:41] Ardy Lay: Heh

[16:41] Ardy Lay reads

[16:41] Andrew Linden: Simon do you know the state of the first stage of region crossing clode cleanup?

[16:41] Flip Idlemind: happens to me, sometimes, when teleporting home from Linden Realms

[16:41] Flip Idlemind: Which is running old(er) code?

[16:42] Simon Linden: Andrew - I think it's going into some of the RCs next week

[16:42] Andrew Linden: You know what? I believe Linden Realms is on a rather old codebase that hasn't been updated in... a few months.

[16:42] Flip Idlemind: Sim Version:

Sim Channel: Second Life RC LR

[16:42] Ardy Lay: It's already marked all sorts of things, dummy, preview, fake, position slammed to 0,0,0

[16:42] Andrew Linden: Yeah, so not updated since end of February.

[16:42] Flip Idlemind: So maybe it has technically been fixed since then

[16:43] Ardy Lay: special render mode 1

[16:43] Andrew Linden: But, if the region crossing stuff still hasn't hit RC then I would not be surprised if SVC-2743 is still happening.

[16:43] Ardy Lay: Hm, I teleported about 300 times two days ago and didn't have that issue but I sayed out of the LR areas.

[16:44] Lillith Rhapsody: Speaking of Linden Realms, when are some of the enhanced experience features going to be available on the rest of the grid?

[16:44] Ardy Lay: Does my tail count as "high-prim"?

[16:44] Andrew Linden: No, that that LR is particularly susceptible to this bug

[16:44] Simon Linden: brb

[16:44] Andrew Linden: but any bug that has been fixed *recently* might still be a problem on LR.

[16:45] Vincent Nacon: Ok I'll ask Simon instead...

[16:45] Vincent Nacon: Simon, do you think CEO or whomever the charge of the development lead could allow vehicle API development after pathfinding project?

[16:45] Vincent Nacon: oh he's away

[16:46] Vincent Nacon sighs

[16:46] Andrew Linden: I don't think a vehicle overhaul is on the short list right now

[16:46] Lillith Rhapsody: Awwww

[16:46] Andrew Linden: but it is definitely on the list of things that Falcon would like to work on

[16:46] Vincent Nacon: yeah, that's why I asked

[16:47] Vincent Nacon: and it would help a lot with game development that Rod wanted to see more in SL

[16:47] Andrew Linden: it may be that Falcon could implement a quick and dirty demo of Havok vehicles in SL to see how feasible it would be

[16:47] Andrew Linden: which is basically what happened with pathfinding

[16:47] Vincent Nacon: I don't like quick demo.. but yeah, one way to do it

[16:47] Vincent Nacon: hm ok

[16:47] Andrew Linden: the pathfinding demo was must faster to implement than pathfinding proper

[16:48] Andrew Linden: because all of the little details could be ignored

[16:48] Ardy Lay: Might be nice to replace the thousands of dumb, driverless things out there piling on on the Linden roadways.

[16:48] Vincent Nacon: oh I understand, just don't like things having some bugs and glitches because it was rushed

[16:48] Ardy Lay: I had great fun shooting a pileup with pinballs a few days ago.

[16:48] Flip Idlemind: Is there a reason why Linden Realms seemingly doesn't get updated with the rest of the grid. That could be problem if, for example, I script a radar HUD that uses llGetAgentList

[16:49] Flip Idlemind: Which is supposed to be "everywhere" starting next week

[16:49] Andrew Linden: like parcel prim limits, object perms, and many other things

[16:49] Flip Idlemind: But would fail in LR

[16:49] Jonathan Yap: Flip, LR is using a modified version of the server code

[16:49] Vincent Nacon: I was thinking more like physic related issues but eayh

[16:49] Jonathan Yap: It's kind of become its own branch I guess

[16:49] Vincent Nacon: yeah*

[16:49] Nalates Urriah: LR has the Experience Tools implemented... Its probably not an easy merge with current code

[16:50] Rex Cronon: a better health/damage system might help more the game development

[16:50] Vincent Nacon: vehicle api is a bit bigger project than health system but I'd agree though

[16:51] Vincent Nacon: maybe some hitzone on avatar?

[16:52] Fancy Detector: Falcon Linden has arrived!

[16:52] Vincent Nacon: maybe he can fill in

[16:53] Ardy Lay adds 52 minutes to the meeting timer.

[16:53] Rex Cronon: btw. before the time is up i have a question about llRequestURL. how can somebody find the url address that for a specific obeject that used llRequestURL?

[16:53] Rex Cronon: url address of a specific object that used llRequestURL to get it*

[16:53] Flip Idlemind: It would have to list itself on an external server

[16:53] Flip Idlemind: Or something

[16:54] Rex Cronon: i mean if the object doesn't share it, u can't fint it?

[16:54] Rex Cronon: find it*

[16:54] TankMaster Finesmith: lol

[16:54] Vincent Nacon: no you can't sit on the money pile!

[16:54] Falcon Linden: mmm, sitting in piles of money

[16:54] Falcon Linden: I like it!

[16:54] Vincent Nacon: :P

[16:54] TankMaster Finesmith: andew has more than you

[16:54] Rex Cronon: u made of dough;)

[16:54] Flip Idlemind: It's "unpredictable" is how Lindens would describe it

[16:54] Ima Mechanique: nest all you want Falcon, that heap will not hatch

[16:55] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[16:55] Simon Linden: ... back

[16:55] Andrew Linden: I believe that is true. I don't think you can query for a list of registered URL's that have been assigned to objects.

[16:55] Sopherian Yumako: wb

[16:55] Rex Cronon: u know there r linden dollar bills that when u click on them give u 1L$:)

[16:55] Rex Cronon: wv

[16:56] Rex Cronon: wb*

[16:56] Vincent Nacon: Falcon, was just asking about if developer lead or CEO could think about approving Vehcie API project right after pathfinding project

[16:56] Falcon Linden: Sure, Rod /could/ do that

[16:56] Vincent Nacon: and Andrew said maybe do a quick demo to please them

[16:56] Falcon Linden: I don't have any reason to think that that's the plan, however :)

[16:57] Ardy Lay: DOes he dig motorcycles?

[16:57] Falcon Linden: sadly, I'm not sure how easy it is to do a "quick demo" with havok vehicles due to some very wonky bits of our code. Replumbing and such. But maybe.

[16:57] Falcon Linden: Personally, I'd rather see animation

[16:58] Vincent Nacon: yeah that's what I was afraid of

[16:58] Falcon Linden: I mean, both are on my list

[16:58] Falcon Linden: but animation seems like a bigger problem right now

[16:58] Vincent Nacon: hmm ok

[16:58] Flip Idlemind: So does anyone think llGetAgentList is a good case for getting the LR servers update? (Even if it's not "easy")

[16:58] Flip Idlemind: Animation as in non-attached rigged animated mesh? /me would also like to see that

[16:58] Vincent Nacon: regrettfully, I agree

[16:59] Sopherian Yumako: im going to bed im so tired. Goodnight everybody

[16:59] Flip Idlemind: Nighty night

[16:59] Vincent Nacon: nighty night

[16:59] Rex Cronon: tc

[16:59] Sopherian Yumako grabs her money and leaves

[16:59] Sopherian Yumako: loool

[16:59] Falcon Linden: Oh right

[16:59] Vincent Nacon: my money!@

[16:59] Falcon Linden: I totally came for a reason

[16:59] Vincent Nacon: do tell

[17:00] Vincent Nacon: you're hatching an egg soon?

[17:00] Falcon Linden: Changes to Land Impact that you'll actually like for a change!

[17:00] Falcon Linden: :P

[17:00] Flip Idlemind: To hang out with us of course

[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[17:00] Vincent Nacon: ...uh oh?

[17:00] Andrew Linden: Flip, you want to be able to use llGetAgentList() on LR regions? Or you want the LR content to be abel to use it?

[17:00] Andrew Linden: (Can you even bring your own scripts to LR?)

[17:00] Vincent Nacon: do tell a little more.... please

[17:01] Falcon Linden: We're changing streaming cost for prims to be capped at 1.0 and we're changing server weight to be: 0.5 * num_prims + (0.25 * num_scripts) but capped at num_prims

[17:01] Falcon Linden: so instead of going from half prim count to prim count by adding one script, it will be a more gradual change to encourage fewer scripts

[17:01] Vincent Nacon: capped at 1,0? what's the difference?

[17:01] Falcon Linden: right now it's not capped :)

[17:01] Vincent Nacon: it's already capped at 1.0 anyway

[17:01] Vincent Nacon: or you mean in total in a linkset?

[17:01] Flip Idlemind: You can bring your own scripts to LR, in attachments. What I want is to make a radar HUD that uses llGetAgentList that, when I TP to Linden Realms, won't complain about an unknown method

[17:02] Falcon Linden: Vincent: it's not capped at 1

[17:02] Falcon Linden: e.g.:

[17:02] Vincent Nacon: for one prim object, it is

[17:02] Rex Cronon: i thought that llGetAgentList was going to be grid wide, not just LR

[17:02] Vincent Nacon: but not in linkset?

[17:02] Flip Idlemind: Well, Rex, it's going to be grid-wide except for LR, unless LR gets updated

[17:03] Rex Cronon: oh. ok

[17:03] Falcon Linden: okay

[17:03] Falcon Linden: here we go

[17:03] Falcon Linden: I have here a linkset of three distorted torii

[17:03] Vincent Nacon: this welder machine is 0.5

[17:03] Vincent Nacon: when scripted, it's 1.0

[17:03] Falcon Linden: The two child prims are shape type NONE and the root is convex hull

[17:04] Falcon Linden: under the current scheme, its download weight is 13.7, its physics weight is 1.6 and its server weight is 1.5

[17:04] Vincent Nacon: eyah

[17:04] Falcon Linden: total LI 14

[17:04] Ardy Lay: My viewer must be lying

[17:04] Falcon Linden: under the new scheme, download weight will be 3, the other weights will be the same in this case, and the overall LI will be 3

[17:05] Vincent Nacon: Ardy, use the "more info" link in editor window

[17:05] Ardy Lay: I did

[17:05] Falcon Linden: if I add one script to it now, the server weight will go from 1.5 to 3.

[17:05] Vincent Nacon: then go burn your viewer

[17:05] Falcon Linden: In the new scheme it will go from 1.5 to 1.75

[17:05] Vincent Nacon: :P

[17:05] Ardy Lay: It's LL's latest

[17:05] Ardy Lay: Ohw wait, I am using and LL dev project viewer

[17:05] Vincent Nacon: so... not capped at 1,0..... you're confusing

[17:06] Falcon Linden: the streaming/download weight is capped at 1.0 per prim

[17:06] Vincent Nacon: you know what....

[17:06] Vincent Nacon: just get rid of server cost

[17:06] Falcon Linden: Err, /will be/ capped at 1.0 per prim

[17:06] Vincent Nacon whispers: :P

[17:06] Nalates Urriah: IS capped at or WILL be capped at?

[17:06] Nalates Urriah: k

[17:06] Falcon Linden: Vincent: you know what? Go away! :)

[17:06] Falcon Linden: Nal: will be. Sorry

[17:06] Vincent Nacon: I've been around here longer than you have

[17:06] Vincent Nacon: :P

[17:07] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[17:07] Nalates Urriah: np

[17:07] Falcon Linden: Vincent: I can still tell you to go away :)

[17:07] Vincent Nacon: thank you but no thanks

[17:07] Lillith Rhapsody: When will this hit the main grid?

[17:07] Falcon Linden: lilith: with pathfinding

[17:07] Ardy Lay:

[17:07] Nalates Urriah: way cool

[17:07] Lillith Rhapsody: Thanks

[17:07] Falcon Linden: it was spurred by PATHBUG-69 but it's been a known issue for a while

[17:07] Falcon Linden: that just made it more important to fix soon

[17:07] Andrew Linden: It is currently just a proposal that has reached consensus.

[17:08] Andrew Linden: Not implemented yet.

[17:08] Falcon Linden: Right

[17:08] Vincent Nacon: but seriously... get rid of server cost, I found myself explaining a lot of times to my builder friends

[17:08] Falcon Linden: actually, latest jira says it was implemented 9 minutes ago. Probably untested, though :P

[17:08] Vincent Nacon: and most of the time they don't get it

[17:08] Falcon Linden: Vincent: no.

[17:08] Falcon Linden: :)

[17:08] Falcon Linden: A better description would be "script cost" maybe...

[17:09] Falcon Linden: but that wouldn't account for the per-object cost

[17:09] Falcon Linden: maybe "bookkeeping and script cost"

[17:09] Vincent Nacon: the scale factor in streaming cost is already hurting the weight cost as much it is

[17:09] Simon Linden: I code reviewed that earlier ... that was my "brb" break

[17:09] Rex Cronon: what script cost? scripts cost nothing:)

[17:09] Vincent Nacon: server cost is useless

[17:09] Andrew Linden: scripts cost CPU cycles to run

[17:09] Vincent Nacon: I know you can't just get rid of it now but that's just how I think about it

[17:09] Ima Mechanique: and RAM to run in

[17:10] Vincent Nacon: in other words, I don't see how it's fair when we have normal and sculpty prims without those factors

[17:10] Flip Idlemind: Oh goodness, my viewer FPS is 0.6

[17:10] Rex Cronon: too bad that even not running scripts take memory space

[17:11] Falcon Linden: vincent: it's not that way

[17:11] Flip Idlemind: And it's all because of "Readback Occlusion"

[17:11] Falcon Linden: you don't have normal and sculpty prims that don't have it

[17:11] Vincent Nacon: yeah.... problem is... people would use more textures on sculpty and normal prims than mesh

[17:11] Ardy Lay: F L I P, what you running SL on, a Timex?

[17:11] Vincent Nacon: and that's more memories

[17:11] Falcon Linden: you have two accounting systems, a legacy prim count and a land impact

[17:11] Falcon Linden: LI has scale factors. legacy doesn't.

[17:11] Vincent Nacon: I know

[17:11] Falcon Linden: It just happens that one way you get forced to use LI is by using a mesh in the linkset

[17:12] Falcon Linden: Or, after pathfinding, by need to make one of your prims not collide while the others due

[17:12] Falcon Linden: because the per-prim phantom hack is going away

[17:12] Vincent Nacon: I know... I'm saying it's a stupid limited option between legacy prims and mesh

[17:12] Vincent Nacon: in builder's point of view

[17:13] Flip Idlemind: But the per-prim phantom official non-hack exists, AKA "None" physical shape

[17:13] Ardy Lay: Vincent wats to build with anti-matter.

[17:13] Falcon Linden: flip: exactly

[17:13] Vincent Nacon: yes.... anti-matter

[17:13] Falcon Linden: Ardy: Vincent wants a pony

[17:13] Vincent Nacon: yes, that too

[17:13] Falcon Linden: And NO PONIES!

[17:13] Vincent Nacon: burn him!

[17:13] Kallista Destiny snickers

[17:13] Falcon Linden: How many times must I tell you, no ponies?

[17:13] Ardy Lay: There are regions full of ponies.

[17:13] Ima Mechanique: unicorns?

[17:13] Ardy Lay: Those too

[17:13] Vincent Nacon: just once because I'm gonna burn you with the cash

[17:13] Simon Linden: I have to run ... I'm on vacation next week, so I'll see you the following one

[17:13] Vincent Nacon: >:D

[17:14] Simon Linden: Take it easy, everyone

[17:14] Ardy Lay: ANd the ones with winfs

[17:14] Vincent Nacon: again Simon?

[17:14] Ardy Lay: wings

[17:14] Falcon Linden: Cheers all

[17:14] Vincent Nacon: take care

[17:14] Simon Linden: This is a full week, not just Friday :)

[17:14] Motor Loon: ok thanks guys

[17:14] Motor Loon: see ya next week


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