Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.09.11

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden Baker Linden Draconis Neurocam
Drongle McMahon Kallista Destiny Lares Carter
Lomoco Binder Motor Loon Nalates Urriah
Qie Niangao Raven Juno Rex Cronon
Sahkolihaa Contepomi Sera Lok TankMaster Finesmith
Theresa Tennyson Yuzuru Jewell


[12:03] Motor Loon: Welcome Andrew

[12:03] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello Andrew.

[12:03] Rex Cronon: hello everybody

[12:04] Andrew Linden: Hello

[12:04] Andrew Linden: I was in a meeting and almost forgot about User Group.

[12:04] Rex Cronon: hello andrew

[12:04] Yuzuru Jewell: Here is still offline on my world map.

[12:04] Andrew Linden: I think Simon is out today.

[12:04] Kallista Destiny: Hi Andrew

[12:04] Andrew Linden: Lessee... news.

[12:04] Lares Carter: Hi Andrew

[12:05] Andrew Linden: I'm currently getting some interestlist work ready for test

[12:05] Andrew Linden: which I mentioned last week

[12:06] Andrew Linden: There is a rolling update happening today

[12:06] Rex Cronon: btw. something weird going on? it took attachment scripts over 30 seconds to initialize

[12:06] Andrew Linden: I'm not sure what it has.

[12:06] Draconis Neurocam:

[12:06] Raven Juno: Today I am pretend simon okay thanks :u

[12:06] Kallista Destiny: A tonabunch fixes

[12:07] Motor Loon:

[12:07] Andrew Linden: Thanks for the link Raven

[12:07] Rex Cronon: lol. looks like baker is ready to cut a tree:)

[12:07] Motor Loon: Good to see you put on safety glasses there Baker

[12:07] Kallista Destiny: And ear muffs too

[12:08] Baker Linden: yeah. Always have protection

[12:08] Baker Linden: I'll brb

[12:08] Raven Juno: he is the spirit of a thousand chopped trees manifested into a living being, here to seek vengance for his fallen brethren by cutting down humans at their kneecaps.

[12:08] Raven Juno: :|

[12:08] Andrew Linden: Ah yes, the "excessive ParcelOverlay messages" fix finally gets merged into the trunk server codebase. Good.

[12:08] Andrew Linden: And is deployed everywhere.

[12:08] Motor Loon: hm... some would say,... about damn time

[12:09] Kallista Destiny: Just glad it is fixed.

[12:09] Andrew Linden: Actually, that is all the news I've got.

[12:09] Andrew Linden: Baker will probably have some news later, but he just went AFK.

[12:09] Drongle McMahon: Never mind. Next time nobody will know about it.

[12:09] Andrew Linden: So table is open.

[12:11] Raven Juno: don't everyone talk at once.

[12:11] Raven Juno: >_>

[12:11] Nalates Urriah: When you interest list starts testing, is it going into the Dev Viewer or just server side testing?

[12:12] Andrew Linden: Nalates, most of my changes are server-side only and shouldn't affect the viewers much

[12:12] Andrew Linden: or shouldn't affect them in a bad way

[12:12] Motor Loon: SVC-7959

[12:12] Rex Cronon: i have a little question. how r we going to be able to talk about bugs if there is no jira that we can reference?

[12:12] Andrew Linden: however, there is one experimental change that might cause some viewers to use more memory

[12:13] Andrew Linden: that one change I've left disabled for now

[12:13] Nalates Urriah: :) Let us know which region in ADITI get please?

[12:13] Andrew Linden: and we'll be testing it with a custom viewer

[12:13] Andrew Linden: to try to measure its impact

[12:13] Andrew Linden: and to maybe coordinate better viewer behavior

[12:13] Kallista Destiny: Wonderful.... You know the Beta 3.4.x has a memory leak?

[12:13] Nalates Urriah: Are you planning a project viewer?

[12:13] Motor Loon: I would comment on SVC-7959 if I could... but I cant... so I'll just say it's something we've been "living with" for a long time now, and it's rather annoying

[12:14] Raven Juno: Why is the ratio for Prim to Linden on a homestead So much more ridiculous than the ratio of a full region's ? if you rent TWO homesteads you pay around.. what 15,000L a week and get 7500 prims across the two, but for one full region its 17,000L a week (only 2000L more) and you get 15,000 prims? Its a bit ridiculous no? SHouldn't there be a standard ratio for sim rentals? homestead prim allowances should be relvant to the price you pay. :|

[12:14] Andrew Linden: if it works out, then we'll probably try to get some suggested changes out to 3rd party viewers

[12:14] Raven Juno: have some .. wall text. thats all i have to whine about :[

[12:14] Andrew Linden: Yes Nalates, a project viewer eventually, if the changes help reduce bandwidth.

[12:14] Nalates Urriah: thx

[12:15] Andrew Linden: and imrpove the object cache.

[12:15] Andrew Linden: Raven, I don'

[12:15] Andrew Linden: I don't know much about the homestead product and rates.

[12:15] Raven Juno: ah

[12:16] Andrew Linden: You're saying you pay several L$k a week for a homestead?

[12:16] Andrew Linden: Do we accept L$ payment for homestead or other regions?

[12:17] Motor Loon: She may be talking about rentals?

[12:17] Kallista Destiny: NOot to mu knowledge $US only

[12:17] Motor Loon: private estates rent out for L$

[12:18] Andrew Linden: Kallista, was the 3.4.x beta memory leak mentioned in the opensource-dev mailing list?

[12:18] Raven Juno: i meant more like, a full region and a homestead are the same square meters but the difference in the Prims allowed on a homestead to a full region is not equal to the ration in price. And sorry im just use to talking in L

[12:19] Kallista Destiny: I'm not sure.

[12:19] Motor Loon: well, you're assuming LL are thinking in m2 or number of prims when they set their product prices

[12:19] Andrew Linden: Well, no I hadn't heard about the memory leak.

[12:19] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: 3.4 hasn't been released due to memory leaks and crashes.

[12:19] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Oz stated this.

[12:19] Kallista Destiny: Actually they charge by perfromance

[12:20] Kallista Destiny: plus a little for overhead

[12:20] Motor Loon: nods

[12:20] Andrew Linden: Oh wait, maybe I had heard something about that... the crash rate on 3.4.x was a bit higher than on 3.3.x

[12:20] Motor Loon: it's alot higher Andrew, but yeah

[12:20] Kallista Destiny: More than a bit...

[12:20] Andrew Linden: but there were a number of projects that were merged together to produce 3.4.x and they weren't sure which changes were the real cause

[12:21] Nalates Urriah: ...significantly higher. Enough I don't use the Dev Viewer much right now.

[12:21] Andrew Linden: so some of our devs did some work splitting out the various changes into different versions of 3.4.x

[12:21] Raven Juno: dev viewer = Broken forever =_=

[12:21] Kallista Destiny: My understanding is that a number of people are looking for the leak(s)

[12:22] Nalates Urriah: Locra was saying they were going to try and get the PF stuff out into a sperate build to get it into the next release viewer while other problems were being fixed.

[12:22] Draconis Neurocam: actually he development viewer is sort of better with the latest changes, but it still has the object inventory bug

[12:22] Andrew Linden: if one of the separated viewers looks good then we'll probably try to push that instead so we can proceed

[12:22] Andrew Linden: right Nalates

[12:23] Kallista Destiny: Push Firestorm 4.2.2 *grins*

[12:23] Andrew Linden: that is one of the risks of merging mutliple projects together

[12:23] Kallista Destiny: :p

[12:23] Nalates Urriah: Happens.

[12:23] Andrew Linden: we've become rather wary of merging distinct projects in the server code

[12:23] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Exodus nightly based on 3.4 has been pretty good, except for the always-crash-on-exit.

[12:23] Raven Juno: ^

[12:23] Raven Juno: True that

[12:24] Motor Loon: so... SVC-7959 "Regions that are restarting need to have their sim state saves occur immediately before or during stopping phase to minimize script memory loss and rezzed content loss or duplication".

[12:24] Andrew Linden: I think that is also a problem for work that Baker has been doing

[12:24] Andrew Linden: when Baker forked the viewer he picked up some of the unshipped code

[12:25] TankMaster Finesmith: notty baker

[12:25] Kallista Destiny: I'm sure baker is being bitten by that.

[12:25] Andrew Linden: so now his changes are sorta held hostage by the broke state of that

[12:25] TankMaster Finesmith: :D

[12:25] Baker Linden: Not gonna lie, I have no idea what goes on in viewer-land.

[12:26] TankMaster Finesmith: did i get all the relivent changes btw?

[12:26] Andrew Linden: He could branch from an older version and port his changes over

[12:26] Draconis Neurocam: i would love to say viewer land is a magical place, but its more often then not a frustrating place, in a police state of library licenses

[12:27] Raven Juno: It should be in the job description that all LL employees must clock in a minimum ammount of time on their resident accounts USING SL per week so that they Can be more aware of whats happening int he world and better see the things that irritate them so that they get fixed.

[12:27] Raven Juno: :3

[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith: its majical in that its gotta be majic thats the only thing that makes it work

[12:27] Baker Linden: Tank, it looks like it

[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith: :D

[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith: ok thx

[12:27] Baker Linden: you didn't pick up the merge I did, so it should be ok

[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith: no, i wasnt willing to yet merge in 3.4.1

[12:28] Baker Linden: I also pushed the fix for bad line endings in llviewerregion.cpp

[12:28] TankMaster Finesmith: and now that ll has redone viewer beta and removed some stuff, i get to have fun later today dealing with that

[12:28] Baker Linden: if you wanted to pick that up too

[12:28] TankMaster Finesmith: yeah, i faked the first changeset, added just the chage and not the line ending :D

[12:28] Baker Linden: ahh nice

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith: it was just a one line change, right?

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith: thats all kdiff poined out

[12:30] Baker Linden: well, the new changeset shows every line changed, as every line had a DOS ending to it

[12:30] Kallista Destiny: Oh brother

[12:30] Baker Linden: if that's what you're talking about

[12:30] TankMaster Finesmith: i know, but coode wise...

[12:30] Baker Linden: oh, code wise, yeah, it's probably one line

[12:30] TankMaster Finesmith: ok

[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[12:32] Andrew Linden: ok, not much to talk about, so let'

[12:32] Kallista Destiny: SVC-2845 I realize that this is a little out of the scope of this group.

[12:33] Kallista Destiny: But there doesn't seem to be a group's group

[12:34] Andrew Linden: Well, if LL were to do some group logging we might be involved.

[12:34] Andrew Linden: Hrm... that would require a new table to the database, which might get kinda big.

[12:34] Sera Lok: i did not see any comments about what motor mentioned? "Motor Loon: so... SVC-7959 "Regions that are restarting need to have their sim state saves occur immediately before or during stopping phase to minimize script memory loss and rezzed content loss or duplication"."

[12:35] Motor Loon agrees

[12:35] Motor Loon: ...I was trying to be patient

[12:35] Kallista Destiny: Well I filed a BUG that there is no features request JIRA type so I fined BUG-67 on that, but what I wanted was:

[12:35] Kallista Destiny: It would be very useful for Group Owners and Officers to have the ability to see recent history of Group control activity such as: : joins, leaves, changes in roles (by who), ejects (by who), invites (by who), role assignments(by who) and role deassignments (by who).

[12:35] Andrew Linden: I didn't see that one go by.

[12:35] Kallista Destiny: I was under the impression that they did save state.

[12:35] Andrew Linden: The simulators are supposed sot successfully save simstate as they go down.

[12:36] Andrew Linden: er.. "supposed to"

[12:36] Motor Loon: so... they often dont

[12:36] Motor Loon: and it's not something new

[12:37] Andrew Linden: Problems with saving state have cropped up over the years.

[12:37] Sera Lok: this is probably what causes me to think "am i crazy? i know i changed this already..." to inworld things i was working on and didn't grab copy of before restart. or i am just crazy.

[12:37] Kallista Destiny: Certianally I would expect under a shutdown for reboot they would, for a crash, not so much

[12:38] Andrew Linden: I think I heard something about Simon and Kelly looking into new reports of problems saving simstate on shutdown.

[12:38] Andrew Linden: But I don't know much about new reports about that problem.

[12:39] Andrew Linden: Yes Sera, if the simstate fails to save then the region can experience a rollback to a previous state.

[12:39] Andrew Linden: When it comes back up.

[12:40] Motor Loon: must be "fairly easy" for you devs to track down where it fails

[12:40] Lares Carter: How far back would that rollback go on average?

[12:40] Motor Loon: 45 mins is not uncommon

[12:40] Andrew Linden: on average it would go back an hour or less

[12:40] Sera Lok: yeah that's quite unfortunate because people who don't know this can happen think they've made sometimes very important changes and not know they have been reverted back. or we have bad memories and don't remember what we did^^

[12:41] Kallista Destiny: Andrew, just a text log-file would work for the Group information, a DB is not neaded ot really reasonable.

[12:41] Lares Carter: Yea, I thought I was going insane recently, with things reverting back and I could have sworn to have fixed it before..

[12:41] Theresa Tennyson: I assume there's some sort of autosaving for regions- how often does it occur?

[12:41] Motor Loon: agree... likely 90% of the cases are just tagged as "ah crap, Second Life eat my stuff" and never "officially reported"

[12:41] Sera Lok: i think it's interesting that you can't even export a text file of members in a group O_o

[12:42] Andrew Linden: Theresa, the state saves hourly, I think.

[12:42] Sera Lok: yes Motor, exactly. or "hm i thought i changed that but i guess i never did even though i could swear..."

[12:42] Andrew Linden: Lemme check the record for this region Denby.

[12:43] Motor Loon: Renting our hundreds of regions, we often have a client come to us with complaints that "all they did on their new sim just vanished"

[12:43] Andrew Linden: Yup, Denby is saving state hourly.

[12:43] Andrew Linden: How often is that Motor?

[12:43] Motor Loon: Powerusers usually know when rollingrestarts are going on, and are most careful to make copies of things they work on - or not do important stuff until the roll is complete... but the avarage users don't know this

[12:44] Motor Loon: Mabye every other rollout we got someone asking why they just lost stuff or so... as I said, it's so common we're almost used to it

[12:44] Lomoco Binder: Do rolling restarts still give the "this region is restarting soon, head for the hills!" warning?

[12:44] Kallista Destiny saves things (takes a copy) regularly like every 15-20 minutes

[12:45] Nalates Urriah: Shut downs force a region state save. But, I would assume a server crash or lock up might not?

[12:45] Andrew Linden: Motor, so about once every two weeks. Across how many regions?

[12:45] Motor Loon: that's out of a couple of hundred or something

[12:46] Kallista Destiny: Lomoco the notice is not very in your face... In fact it's quite obscure

[12:46] Motor Loon: we also see it affect our rentalsystem... often when this happens on the sim that hosts our rental system, the rent time held by inworld object become "off" and we have to manually fix this

[12:46] Lomoco Binder: In the old viewer, notices like that were given special priority. Big yellow dropdown box like things. Perhaps this could be a viewer fix?

[12:46] Motor Loon: granted, the rental system is prone to this - and such data should be kept offworld instead, but still...

[12:48] Yuzuru Jewell: Andrew, I tested the mesh road with prim joint at the seam of it. But It is not good. Cars still bumping at the seam of mesh road.

[12:48] Kallista Destiny: VWR-27456

[12:48] Kallista Destiny: SVC-7903

[12:49] Andrew Linden: Well I'll ask around to see if I can learn more about whether we're working on a simstate-save-on-shutdown problem.

[12:49] Sera Lok: i take copies of items, but it is hard to know whether inworld rezzed items (like vendors/displays, etc) are saved or rolled back if there are issues. sounds like if i make a lot of changes on rezzed objects, doing a manual restart might be a solution since it's supposed to force a save

[12:49] Kallista Destiny: SVC-7759

Scheduled restart notices no longer noticeable

[12:50] Lomoco Binder: I have a question regarding moving simulators around. Linden Lab seems to change a hefty price for what seems like is a fairly simple operation. To perhaps encourage people to buy /91568203 rent more sims, why not offer something like one free move per month, or per several months?

[12:51] Yuzuru Jewell: Physical prim floats on mesh object more than normal prim..

[12:51] Andrew Linden: Hrm... Maestro claimed there was a pending fix for SVC-7759 back in May

[12:51] Andrew Linden: and then no more comments about that particular region suffering from the problem.

[12:51] Lomoco Binder: *charge a hefty price, <_<

[12:52] Yuzuru Jewell: You can check it here.

[12:52] Kallista Destiny: It is a , admittedly lowish level, ongoing PITA

[12:53] Yuzuru Jewell: Is it the reason the car bumps on mesh road?

[12:54] Andrew Linden: Yuzuru, regarding the visible collision gap on mesh roads...

[12:54] Andrew Linden: we automatically srhink the collision shape for most legacy prims (not for concave prims, I think)

[12:55] Andrew Linden: to compensate for the aforementioned (in previous user groups) "convex radius" collision buffer that Havok uses to keep its objects from penetrating

[12:55] Yuzuru Jewell: But mesh not shrink collision shape?

[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[12:55] Andrew Linden: however, we don't shrink concave primitives, or mesh objects

[12:56] Drongle McMahon: Mesh covex hulls are smaller than they should be?

[12:56] Andrew Linden: the shrinking utility code does not yet support concave objects

[12:56] Motor Loon: hopefully it'll never shrink mesh objects

[12:56] Motor Loon: that could be a serious problem

[12:56] Andrew Linden: and in fact, some concave objects cannot be properly shrunk, if some parts are too thin already

[12:57] Yuzuru Jewell: I changed mesh road to convex hull.

[12:57] Andrew Linden: as for mesh objects...

[12:57] Andrew Linden: I wonder if we actually shrink *convex* mesh shapes or not

[12:57] Andrew Linden: I'll have to ask Falcon about that later.

[12:57] Motor Loon: doesnt look like it

[12:58] Theresa Tennyson: Yuzuru, the block is floating because of the "curbs"

[12:58] Motor Loon: the box was floating 0.05 over the mesh there when convex shape

[12:58] Theresa Tennyson: Floating that high, that is...

[12:58] Andrew Linden: But, a mesh creator actually has the power to manually shrink the collision shape before upload, or during the mesh construction, as I understand it.

[12:58] Yuzuru Jewell: yes

[12:58] Drongle McMahon: The default mesh convex hulls are smaller than the real convex hulls. but the same hull in a decomposed shape isnn't.

[12:58] Andrew Linden: Since it was technically possible to do that, and since it was very hard or impossible for us to shrink it automatcially, that is where it stands today.

[12:58] TankMaster Finesmith: that is one wild tree over there

[12:58] Motor Loon: not always Andrew... since the physics model is stretched to the same bounding box as the mesh itself

[12:59] Yuzuru Jewell: So make it shrink as normal prim?

[12:59] Motor Loon: so you'll need to use some trickery

[12:59] Baker Linden: still getting used to controlling it with that 3d mouse thing

[12:59] Motor Loon: thats not always possible with all item types

[12:59] Andrew Linden: Right, what you woudl do is provide a collision shape that is about 0.05m smaller at each face.

[13:00] Andrew Linden: Hrm... my memory tells me that the shrinking of mesh is more complicated.

[13:00] Motor Loon: it is

[13:00] Drongle McMahon: The uploader would stretch it back unless you leave some bits protruding to the bb.

[13:00] Andrew Linden: I'll have to get Falcon to remind me of when the mesh objects need to be shrunk and when they don'

[13:00] Motor Loon: yep

[13:00] Yuzuru Jewell: Covex Hull is still floating..

[13:00] Andrew Linden: ... when they don't

[13:00] Motor Loon: thats what I mean by "trickery"... those bits

[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[13:01] Motor Loon: would be nice if the physics model was NOT stretched to fit

[13:01] Motor Loon: although I see why its being currently done

[13:01] Lomoco Binder: That's weird. The meeter was about 50 seconds late or so.

[13:01] Yuzuru Jewell: We will test it. thank you Andrew.

[13:02] time: Hello, Avatar!

[13:02] Andrew Linden: Ok, I've got to get get some food before another meeting coming up.

[13:02] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.

[13:02] Raven Juno: get mexican!

[13:02] Qie Niangao: Thanks Andrew, Baker.

[13:03] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Andrew and Baker.

[13:03] Nalates Urriah: Thx guys

[13:03] Baker Linden: Thanks for coming everyone

[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc andrew

[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc andrew

[13:03] Baker Linden: now it's time to dance.


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