Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.09.18

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden Ashiri Baker Linden
Chieron Tenk Davido Chrome Kelly Linden
Lares Carter Liisa Runo Lomoco Binder
MartinRJ Fayray Motor Loon Nalates Urriah
Qie Niangao Rex Cronon Sahkolihaa Contepomi
Simon Linden Sonya Haight Stickman Ingmann
Theresa Tennyson Yuzuru Jewell


[12:00] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Nalates.

[12:00] Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group

[12:00] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Andrew.

[12:00] Andrew Linden: Hello

[12:01] Nalates Urriah: Hey Yuz

[12:01] Rex Cronon: greetings everybody

[12:01] Rex Cronon: hello andrew

[12:01] Chieron Tenk: hi everyone

[12:01] Stickman Ingmann: Hi Andrew, Rex.

[12:01] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Rex.

[12:01] Rex Cronon: hi

[12:01] Lares Carter: Hey Andrew

[12:01] Qie Niangao: Hi Simon and Andrew

[12:01] Rex Cronon: hi stickman, yuzuru

[12:01] Simon Linden: Hi everyone

[12:01] Rex Cronon: hi simon

[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Simon.

[12:02] Andrew Linden: Ok news...

[12:02] Andrew Linden: I thought my interestlist project was ready for QA... well it is, but I've got some reports about problems with it

[12:03] Andrew Linden: so I'm going to be tracking those down today and tomorrow at least

[12:03] Andrew Linden: I think it is up on aditi... I'll try to find a list of regions.

[12:04] Andrew Linden: My hope is that objects still show up correctly, and there is a little less lag per-avatar

[12:04] Andrew Linden: but we'll see.

[12:04] Andrew Linden: I'm going to try to throw a pile of test avatars at it to stress it out. Later this week.

[12:04] Andrew Linden: Go ahead Simon.

[12:05] Simon Linden: Let's see ... there was some issues with today's rollout, but it should be fixed up soon

[12:05] Simon Linden: Tomorrow's RC updates will go out as scheduled

[12:06] Stickman Ingmann: What was the problem with today rollout?

[12:06] Lomoco Binder: Yeah... I noticed. The status page doesn't mention region outages though.

[12:06] Lomoco Binder: Just some rezzing and lag issues

[12:06] Simon Linden: It wasn't really an outage, but they had to re-start regions again and things were fine. The problems were cosmetic with what you saw or didn

[12:07] Simon Linden: ... didn't see in-world

[12:07] Stickman Ingmann: Was looking more for a where to point fingers, Lomoco. Like, "this feature that was added" or "this setting was turned on on the servers, and should have been off."

[12:07] Theresa Tennyson: They rolled back to last week's code from what I saw.

[12:07] Stickman Ingmann: I've got a region that restarted 20-30 minutes ago and hasn't hit full sim FPS since it started. Should I just restarted it?

[12:08] Andrew Linden: Stickman, which region is that?

[12:08] Simon Linden: It should have rolled to what's on the RCs

[12:08] Stickman Ingmann: Aggro.

[12:09] Motor Loon: (can someone send me first 8 mins logs, I got held up today)

[12:09] Simon Linden: The code that's going to RCs tomorrow has Baker's large-region support, so it will be interesting to get some reports on how that goes wiht real groups

[12:09] Lomoco Binder: There you go Motor

[12:09] Davido Chrome: Large region?

[12:09] Kelly Linden: not large-region. large-group.

[12:09] Simon Linden: sorry, large groups

[12:10] Simon Linden: I'd LOVE to have large-region support, lol

[12:10] Davido Chrome: Ah. Freudian slip.

[12:10] Simon Linden: exactly

[12:10] Theresa Tennyson: How will this affect people with viewers that don't support the large-group changes?

[12:10] Davido Chrome: Booom!

[12:10] Andrew Linden: Hrm... Aggro is running at about 39 fps from what I can see

[12:10] Lomoco Binder: Darnit, I got excited for a moment there.

[12:10] Simon Linden: They won't be able to kill the back-end anymore :)

[12:11] Andrew Linden: and it typically runs around there

[12:11] Motor Loon: non-supported viewers will not be able to show memberlist of groups with more than 10K members

[12:11] Nalates Urriah: Baker says old viewers will not be able to edit groups larger than 10k on regions with the new code.

[12:11] Rex Cronon: how do u kill the back-end?

[12:12] Simon Linden: Sometimes by trying to show memberlists of groups with more than 10k members, I think

[12:12] Rex Cronon: i didn't realize that v1.23 killed the back-end

[12:12] Andrew Linden: Aggro jumped from about 735 scripts to 1.5k this morning, starting sometime after 09:10

[12:12] Stickman Ingmann: Yeah? Hm. Any idea why it would run so slow? It's got ~17ms spare time per frame. I'm not sure why it would be so slow.

[12:12] Simon Linden: "kill" is probably the wrong term ... in any case, the system doesn't scale well to groups that size. They really don't work well now at all, hence all the work done on it

[12:13] Rex Cronon: oh. ok. no kill. just lag

[12:13] Andrew Linden: I'll look some more.

[12:14] Simon Linden: Some non-SL news ... if you go to you can see two new projects linked there.

[12:14] Qie Niangao: ooo

[12:14] Simon Linden: There's a press release as well if you dig for it

[12:15] Liisa Runo: will that toy thing work on prim surface?

[12:15] Simon Linden: I'm not sure what you mean, Liisa

[12:15] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I can see Creatorverse was inspire by Algodoo.

[12:15] Qie Niangao: (press release:

[12:15] Lomoco Binder: Ooh, site redesign?

[12:15] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: inspired*

[12:15] Liisa Runo: creatoverse for example, will it work on face 4 of a cube in SL?

[12:15] Simon Linden: Both of these are not connected to SL

[12:16] Lomoco Binder: "Patterns"... Minecraft with triangles?

[12:16] Motor Loon: will this be seperate divisions of LL or a shared thing with the current devs?

[12:16] Rex Cronon: i don't get it. what is patterns?

[12:16] Simon Linden: I'm not sure what aspect of them may work in a browser (if at all) and thus might be done via media-on-a-prim, but they are not designed to be part of SL

[12:17] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Unfortunate Creatorverse is iPad only.

[12:17] Lomoco Binder: "Explore caverns and valleys, while you harvest substances with real world densities. Build large scale structures that reach the sky or bridges that traverse chasms. Challenge real-world physics to see which creations will tumble -- or withstand -- the power of gravity. "

[12:17] Lomoco Binder: OK, so, Minecraft with triangles and a physics engine

[12:17] Lomoco Binder: Ooh

[12:17] Motor Loon: oh dear... LL jumps on the Apple wagon

[12:18] Motor Loon hates apples with a passion

[12:18] Simon Linden: I'm really not familiar with details on these, as I've remained focused on SL

[12:18] Rex Cronon: isn't there already a sl-viewer for the ipad?

[12:18] Simon Linden: So the materials you find there are the best info

[12:18] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Rex, no.

[12:18] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: There's one for Android.

[12:18] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Lumiya is full 3D capable on android devices.

[12:18] MartinRJ Fayray: and it's very basic

[12:18] MartinRJ Fayray: full-oid, koli

[12:19] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Laggy unless you've got a good device. :p

[12:19] Rex Cronon: well. looks like there might be a slviewer on ipad:)

[12:19] Simon Linden: That's all I have for news

[12:19] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I say 'full' as in it renders prims and sculpts properly.

[12:19] MartinRJ Fayray: but it has no content-creation capabilities, right?

[12:20] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Newp, 'view & chat only'.

[12:21] Motor Loon: How far along is the 2nd rolling restart by now?

[12:21] Simon Linden: 90+ %

[12:21] Motor Loon: ok almost there then

[12:21] Simon Linden: Should be finishing soon

[12:21] Motor Loon: excellent

[12:22] Motor Loon: Could we perhaps have a little more info on what caused the issues? I know it was more than just restarting them again...

[12:22] Theresa Tennyson: The code that was on the RC's worked fine last week - what happened when it was promoted?

[12:22] Andrew Linden: Actually, I think it is done except for a little bit of cleanup. I see only 4 regions on the first roll's version

[12:22] Andrew Linden: probably a host was skipped during the rollout, someone will manually fix that one

[12:23] Simon Linden: yeah, there always are a few machines that need clean-up

[12:24] Qie Niangao: apparently there was a version "" that went out first... I guess. This new one seems to have the same version number as the ones on the RCs last week.

[12:24] Davido Chrome signs up to hopefully get to be beta testing Patterns.

[12:25] Andrew Linden: Right, the version that went out didn't match what was in RC.

[12:25] Qie Niangao: ah

[12:25] Qie Niangao: thanks.

[12:25] Motor Loon: yeah figured it was just a typoo but mabye that was the issue then

[12:25] Simon Linden: It's part of our grand conspiracy

[12:25] Motor Loon: lol

[12:25] Kelly Linden: sshhhhhhh simon

[12:25] Motor Loon hands out tinfoil hats

[12:26] Davido Chrome: Oooh, shiny!

[12:26] Lomoco Binder: Well I'm 11% tin, so I'm covered

[12:26] Rex Cronon: thanks. i am already in tincan. no need for tinfoil hat:)

[12:26] Motor Loon: 11.01721% ... remember the little details Lomoco

[12:26] Davido Chrome puts Rex on his head.

[12:26] Lomoco Binder: Specs specs...

[12:26] Rex Cronon: lol.

[12:27] Andrew Linden: Stickman, Aggro

[12:27] Motor Loon: well, ok then... what next for the RCs?

[12:27] Stickman Ingmann: Yessir?

[12:27] Motor Loon: "There will be a new maint-server on this channel. Details soon."

[12:27] Andrew Linden: Aggro's lag looks mysterious -- we expect better performance there

[12:28] Andrew Linden: we're going to look into that a bit more.

[12:28] Simon Linden: I mentioned that earlier - the big items is Baker's large group support

[12:28] Stickman Ingmann: If it's a long standing issue, I've been hearing reports of rezzing issues as well.

[12:28] Rex Cronon: maybe the scripts on the sim affect the sim performance?

[12:28] Simon Linden: Plus a bunch of localized notifications, but that's not too exciting

[12:28] Motor Loon: aah sorry, i missed that

[12:28] Motor Loon: excellent project

[12:28] -/_TinFoilHat Vendor: Hello, Avatar!

[12:28] Theresa Tennyson: Is there a way of knowing how many people are in a group without loading it?

[12:29] Stickman Ingmann: I appreciate you looking into it, Andrew. Is there any information I should provide?

[12:29] Lomoco Binder: Rex, they shouldn't if there's still as much time left over as Stickman said there is

[12:29] Rex Cronon: it might depend on what the scripts r doing

[12:29] Simon Linden: Theresa - I don't think so

[12:29] Andrew Linden: No Stickman, not yet.

[12:30] Andrew Linden: It isn't spending too much time in scripts, so I don't think that is the problem.

[12:30] Stickman Ingmann: Most of the scripts are idle, waiting for a touch event. A good chunk are in trees that can catch fire.

[12:30] Davido Chrome: I have a queastion, you upgraded Havoc at the same time you rolled out pathfinding, right? Did the new version have higher system demands?

[12:30] Andrew Linden: No Davido, there wasn't any major changes in that version of Havok.

[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[12:31] Andrew Linden: Mostly we were picking up the latest bug fixes for the new features we were using: pathfinding and navmesh stuff.

[12:31] Motor Loon: and changed to LI calculation

[12:31] Motor Loon: changes

[12:31] Andrew Linden: We encountered a few performance problems in the pathfinding stuff

[12:31] Andrew Linden: some of the Havok bugs were already fixed

[12:31] Andrew Linden: and some were newly discovered, but they fixed them when we provided some repro recipies.

[12:32] Davido Chrome: There is something weird going on with positional updating of visual information for avatars. There has been a lot of them floating away, not showing to be where they actually are since Pathfinding went live. It's not so bad if you play two vs two in Simball, less floating away, but in a 3 vs 3 it becomes a probelm.

[12:33] Andrew Linden: We'll be upgrading Havok again soon as we transition to VisualStudio 2010 for the server code.

[12:33] Theresa Tennyson: It would really help general performance in some areas if "movable obstacles" weren't constantly asked for updates with no pathfinding characters on the sim.

[12:33] Lares Carter: Group size is displayed in on your dashboard page on the right hand side, Theresa. I don't think it's displayed in world.

[12:33] Motor Loon: Please dont hurry - we're NOT looking forward to another havok upgrade

[12:34] Motor Loon: atleast not if it's deployed like the last one

[12:34] Andrew Linden: Yeah Theresa, Falcon and I were talking about that. Dunno what Falcon is going to decide to do.

[12:34] MartinRJ Fayray: it's displayed in the small info-window, Laress

[12:34] MartinRJ Fayray: (when you press the 'i' icon)

[12:35] Davido Chrome: Does movable objects include avatars on physical vehicles?

[12:35] Lares Carter: Ah, thanks.

[12:35] Motor Loon: does makes sense if the pathfinding kinda went "to sleep" while there wasn't any active PF characters present on the regions... which would likely be most of them

[12:35] Andrew Linden: Yes Davido. Avatars and vehicles can block an intended path of some pathfinding "character".

[12:36] Andrew Linden: So the pathfinding code will update the navmesh locally (sorta), and re-route the character around the obstacle.

[12:36] Davido Chrome: Ok, then it seems logical that it would help to turn pathfinding off in Simball regions. Except, it doesn't help...

[12:37] Andrew Linden: Which is where the extra CPU cycles are going -- maintaining some data structures to make the path-reroute efficient

[12:37] Ashiri: use an exclusion volume perhaps?

[12:38] Motor Loon: be careful if you experiment... some settings will make your objects become phantom... I mananged to do that to an entire sim with 10.000+ objects before I realised it made changed to my actual objects on the sim.

[12:38] Motor Loon: Took a while to fix I can tell ya

[12:38] Davido Chrome: Can you make Exclusion objects from Megaprims?

[12:38] Andrew Linden: Hrm... I wonder wonder what actually happens when you "disable pathfinding". I'll have to ask Falcon or hunt through the code.

[12:38] Theresa Tennyson: Call it the "Biker Ghost Town."

[12:38] Andrew Linden: Davido, what command or UI element do you use to disable pathfinding?

[12:39] Davido Chrome: I don't, I have no region. I just see if it's on or off by the icon that Firestorm displays.

[12:39] Andrew Linden: A giant exclusion volume that covered everything... I think that would mean the region would get an empty navmesh data structure.

[12:39] Motor Loon: "set dynamic_pathfinding false"

[12:39] Motor Loon: thru sim console

[12:40] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'll try to follow that thread in the code to see what happens.

[12:40] Davido Chrome: So I have played in some regions before it was shown as off, and after. Doesn't seem to be a difference.

[12:40] Motor Loon: (interesting new look there baker)

[12:40] Baker Linden: haha

[12:41] Ashiri: hmm, lunch on lehs

[12:41] Andrew Linden: Davido, you noticed a performance shift when the pathfinding simulator was deployed to your SimBall region?

[12:41] Davido Chrome: Andrew, would a Megaprim work though? If it does, it would make more sense to use that ti cover a simball arena as they tend to be much larger than 64*64*64.

[12:42] Andrew Linden: Work for what purpose Davido?

[12:42] Davido Chrome: Andrew, on all simball regions. Physics seem to update as before. It's visual representations of other plays that suffer a lot of lag spikes.

[12:42] Davido Chrome: Players*

[12:43] Davido Chrome: As exclusion volume for the Nav-mesh.

[12:43] Theresa Tennyson: A lot of physical animals are flying around randomly too.

[12:43] Theresa Tennyson: Or at least appear to....

[12:43] Andrew Linden: So... the object update packets are arriving too slowly Davido?

[12:43] Ashiri: more than they always did?

[12:43] Davido Chrome: Yeah. I guess so.

[12:44] Davido Chrome: And, yeah, I have asked around. It happens to all players.

[12:44] Andrew Linden: Ok, that is a good clue.

[12:44] Motor Loon: I think generally the object update system needs a look at

[12:44] Motor Loon: alot seems to "get lost"

[12:45] Davido Chrome: It affects the game a lot, it's so fast, so a person floating away for you for a couple of seconds is enough for him to sneak by the defenses.

[12:45] Theresa Tennyson: I also think that in crowded areas the sim frame rate stays "correct" but that's at the expense of running scripts, so a lot of requests to use scripted items fail a few times.

[12:45] Andrew Linden: right

[12:46] Davido Chrome: Before Pathfinding we only got this behaviour during tournaments when the sim is full of thirty people spectating as well as the players.

[12:47] Davido Chrome: But then, everything else lags too...

[12:47] Andrew Linden: Ok. It sounds related to the stuff I've been working on for a while (not done yet).

[12:48] Andrew Linden: So perhaps when I think it is done I'll try to test with a SimBall region.

[12:48] Davido Chrome:

[12:48] Andrew Linden: How hard would it be to get a SimBall game going on the test grid?

[12:49] Davido Chrome: That page shows where there was activity last. :)

[12:49] Andrew Linden: Er... I mean to recruit players for a game?

[12:49] Motor Loon: Im sure we could sort that after an Oskar usergroup there

[12:50] Andrew Linden: Ok. I'm not ready yet, but I'll consider trying to organize such a test when I am.

[12:50] Rex Cronon: u can post on the forums:)

[12:50] Davido Chrome: That user group is one a clock in the morning for me. :(

[12:50] Motor Loon: not an A-person Davido?

[12:51] Davido Chrome: A?

[12:51] Motor Loon: morning-person

[12:51] Davido Chrome: I have work thursdays, usually means I pass out around 18:00 XD

[12:51] Motor Loon: so you should be pretty well rested by 1am then

[12:52] Davido Chrome: Zombie Davido...

[12:52] Baker Linden: So it seems that my large group changes are live on RCs

[12:53] Baker Linden: Magnum, BlueSteel, and LeTigre

[12:53] Motor Loon: neat-o

[12:53] Kelly Linden: baker: tomorrow I think.

[12:53] Kelly Linden: right?

[12:53] Motor Loon: yeah "will be live"

[12:53] Baker Linden: It was supposed to go out tody, but it may have been pushed to tomorrow

[12:53] Kelly Linden: RCs right now match trunk.

[12:53] Motor Loon: tuesday is mainchannel, wednesday is RC rollout

[12:54] Theresa Tennyson: Could you put together some sort of announcement about that to warn users of old viewers?

[12:54] Nalates Urriah: News guys need so much help (sigh)

[12:54] Baker Linden: you'll still have to grab the development viewer from the SVC-4968 Jira (you should still be able to view it)

[12:54] Baker Linden: I have a meeting today about it

[12:54] Baker Linden: it'll be a blog post

[12:54] Motor Loon: Theresa: not that many people with groups of 10.000+ people

[12:55] Ashiri: oh?

[12:55] Theresa Tennyson: Does it only affect group OWNERS or everybody?

[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[12:55] Baker Linden: People that manage those groups will have the largest benefit

[12:55] Theresa Tennyson: Because I think you have to wait for the group to load to turn off notices, etc.

[12:55] Baker Linden: however, regular members can see the member list (which doesn't currently load)

[12:56] Baker Linden: so yeah, it affects everyone, but group managers / owners will benefit much more from it

[12:56] Theresa Tennyson: So it's basically broken now so breaking it again isn't a problem?

[12:56] Baker Linden: correct

[12:57] Theresa Tennyson: Okay.

[12:57] Baker Linden: but it shouldn't be broken

[12:57] Baker Linden: unless you have an old viewer, in which case some things that wouldn't show up before due to the issue will now show up

[12:57] Qie Niangao: Apropos nothing: I *love* the "Scripts Run" % in the statistics floater that comes with the pathfinding beta viewers. It's really informative.

[12:57] Kelly Linden: Qie cool.

[12:58] Motor Loon: ah yes, that was a good addition

[12:58] Motor Loon: Firestorm has that too

[12:59] Motor Loon: wait... baker is a chic with a tuba... this is most confusing

[12:59] Baker Linden: saxamaphone

[12:59] Motor Loon: tinytube

[12:59] Motor Loon: tinytuba even

[12:59] Davido Chrome: How do you enterprit that number?

[13:00] Kelly Linden: 100% means all scripts in the region are getting a chance to run each frame.

[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[13:00] Kelly Linden: 90% means that only 90% of all scripts get a chance to run.

[13:00] Motor Loon: 99.223 is probably close enough to 100

[13:01] Qie Niangao: well, when spare time is low and/or time is dilating, you know that some scripts aren't running each frame. This way you have some hint as to how many.

[13:01] Davido Chrome: Aaah.

[13:01] Kelly Linden: ie you have 1000 scripts then 900 are getting a chance to run each frame.

[13:01] Kelly Linden: yeah what Qie said

[13:02] Motor Loon: is there any mechanism making sure that it's not the same 100 scripts not getting a chance all the time?

[13:02] Davido Chrome: Queue?

[13:02] Kelly Linden: motor yes, we always start where we left off.

[13:02] Motor Loon: excellent

[13:02] Motor Loon: you guys are so damn clever

[13:03] Davido Chrome: FiLo?

[13:03] Lomoco Binder: Umm, in this case I think it'd be FiFo, wouldn't it?

[13:03] Qie Niangao: I think the discipline is called "round-robin"... because "round ostrich" doesn't alliterate. :p

[13:03] Kelly Linden: more like a mobius strip.

[13:03] Davido Chrome: Oh, duh.

[13:03] Lomoco Binder: :P

[13:04] Sonya Haight: Second Life Server

[13:04] Sonya Haight: oops

[13:04] Motor Loon: Pay attention Sonya

[13:05] Davido Chrome: You know you can summon horrible creatures from the deep if you use the wrong math, right? Read The atrocity archives, by Charles Stross.

[13:05] Motor Loon: Some of my best friends are horrible creatures from the ddeep

[13:05] Theresa Tennyson: So Server 9.17 never happened? We get the flashbulb thing used on us?

[13:06] Sonya Haight: can't pay attention Motor, sims screwed up

[13:06] Motor Loon: the neurolizer?

[13:06] Theresa Tennyson: Think so.

[13:06] Sonya Haight: well one of them at least

[13:06] Motor Loon: thats just "expected misbehavior" Sonya

[13:07] Motor Loon: ok, anything else on the program or did all our linden friends just go AFK for more coffee?

[13:07] Rex Cronon: i g2g. tc everybody

[13:07] Qie Niangao: oh... Thanks all... have fun!

[13:07] Rex Cronon: the left silently:)

[13:07] MartinRJ Fayray: goodbye

[13:07] Kelly Linden: o/

[13:07] Rex Cronon: have fun:)

[13:07] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today

[13:07] Motor Loon: ok until next time...

[13:07] Motor Loon: tc

[13:07] Rex Cronon: ok. u guys just fell asleep:)

[13:08] Davido Chrome: Thank you very much for your time!

[13:08] Lares Carter: Thanks for the meeting.

[13:08] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens

[13:08] Stickman Ingmann: Thanks for looking at Aggro.


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