Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.11.13

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden Anton Benedict Baker Linden
Darien Caldwell Davido Chrome Dee Kass
Duckie Dickins Inara Pey Jonathan Yap
Lexbot Sinister Lucia Nightfire MartinRJ Fayray
Nalates Urriah Qie Niangao Rex Cronon
Siana Gearz Simon Linden Sonya Haight
TankMaster Finesmith Theresa Tennyson Yuzuru Jewell


[12:01] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Andrew.

[12:01] Andrew Linden: Hello everyone.

[12:02] Inara Pey: Hi, Andrew

[12:02] Andrew Linden: Ok let's get started...

[12:02] Inara Pey: Izza Baz

[12:02] Andrew Linden: First of all, as I mentioned at last Friday's User Group...

[12:03] Andrew Linden: we aren't going to be meeting on Fridays anymore

[12:03] Andrew Linden: we're keeping this User Group hour

[12:04] Andrew Linden: I, Simon, and a few other LL devs will be participating in the Thursday afternoon User Group

[12:04] Andrew Linden: now chaired by Maestro Linden

[12:04] Nalates Urriah: Remember to change the user groups page...

[12:04] TankMaster Finesmith: howdy andrew

[12:04] Andrew Linden: The Thursday User Group is held in Morris on the beta grid.

[12:04] Andrew Linden: @ 15:00 SLT

[12:04] Lexbot Sinister checks baker Lindens nutritional facts

[12:05] Andrew Linden: On to news... Simon, do you have an update on server deploys and RC's this week?

[12:05] Andrew Linden: Thanks for the reminder Nalates. Yeah I need to update that wiki page.

[12:05] Simon Linden: Let's see .. the main channel was rolled out this morning

[12:06] Simon Linden: Everything went smoothly, except for one case that was a bit exciting

[12:06] Davido Chrome: Did you do a Skynet?

[12:07] Sonya Haight: what was exciting?

[12:07] Simon Linden: The region/estate debug setting to "disable collisions" was changed so it actually works -- it had been disabled a while back, I think when Mesh went out

[12:08] Simon Linden: There was one area (maybe more, I'm not sure) that had that checked ... so when it came back up on the new code, nothing worked as before

[12:08] Simon Linden: Once we figured out what was going on, it was easy to fix, but there was fear something big has broken

[12:09] Simon Linden: But if you're an estate or region manager and can use that setting, it is definitely helpful if you get a very bad physics overload. Check that and you should be able to clean up the problem objects

[12:09] Andrew Linden: Ah, someone had disabled collisions somewhere, the change hadn't had an effect, so they left them disabled

[12:09] Andrew Linden: until we shipped code that made that feature work again.

[12:10] Simon Linden: Tomorrow all the RCs will get an update with the next maintenance code ... it's the same stuff that's on Bluesteel and LeTigre today, I think, with a few minor last-minute fixes

[12:10] Simon Linden: Exactly, Andrew

[12:10] Simon Linden: Next week there will not be any updates due to the Thanksgiving holiday in the USA

[12:10] TankMaster Finesmith: fun times

[12:10] Lexbot Sinister: Thank you very much .

[12:11] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'll give an update about what I've been working on, since otherwise I won't have much to talk about...

[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith: not much in dec either, right?

[12:11] Andrew Linden: as I've mentioned before, I'm working on some improvements to the server interestlist

[12:11] Andrew Linden: which is the code that does the server-side culling of object updates

[12:11] Andrew Linden: and figures out what to send to the viewer

[12:11] Simon Linden: There will be updates in a couple of weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas. I think the 2 weeks around the holidays will also not have changes

[12:12] Andrew Linden: I think I'm nearly done, and I'll try to have a demo up for Thursday's User Group

[12:12] Andrew Linden: I'm expecting improved performance, but for the most part it isn't drastic enough to be able to measure in a haphazard way

[12:13] Andrew Linden: that is, if we all piled onto some region and started trying to lag it

[12:13] Jonathan Yap: When you arrive in a new place will the server send near things first now

[12:13] Andrew Linden: I doubt we'd come back with meaningful conclusions

[12:14] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, the sorting is a little better, but it isn't rigorously near-to-far yet

[12:14] Andrew Linden: and the overall performance is a little better

[12:14] Andrew Linden: and improved visibility culling -- it sends less stuff that is not visible

[12:14] Davido Chrome: Will it still skimp on updates of vehicles and dynamic objects?

[12:15] Andrew Linden: There is one easy feature to demo on Thursday... the improved culling of updates for actively changing objects that are outside the view frustum

[12:15] Simon Linden: One of the reasons I want to go to the Thursday user group is to do testing like that, so we may be asking people there to try pile-ons like that more often

[12:15] Andrew Linden: Davido, no it shouldn't skimp on updates for things that are visible

[12:16] Andrew Linden: but it does skimp more on things that it thinks are not visible

[12:16] Davido Chrome: Does that include dynamic objects that aren't behind you?

[12:16] Darien Caldwell: does that include avatar animations?

[12:16] Davido Chrome: That ARE behind you, but not hidden.

[12:16] Andrew Linden: I doubt we'd be able to pile onto a region on the beta grid and notice a difference

[12:17] Andrew Linden: but someone with a popular region that has lots of crowds and moving objects might be able to notice a difference

[12:17] Duckie Dickins: That's based on your cam position and not your avatar position, correct?

[12:17] Andrew Linden: when it gets to RC I'll be interested in hearing anecdotes about performance changes

[12:17] Rex Cronon: greetings all. sorry for being late:(

[12:17] Andrew Linden: Right Duckie, that is true.

[12:18] Lexbot Sinister: Sure, there's a few spots we visit where all kinds of performance issues tend to become really obvious

[12:18] Andrew Linden: Davido, no we aren't skimping any more on avatar animation changes. I didn't touch that bit of code.

[12:18] Andrew Linden: I actually expect some improvements in regions where people play shoot-em-up games with lots of bullets

[12:19] Andrew Linden: not improvements in physics, but some slight improvements to the "Agent" time in the CTRL+SHIFT+1 stats.

[12:19] Nalates Urriah: IS that as far as you intend to take this Interest List revision or do you have plans to do more?

[12:19] Davido Chrome: Answering the wrong person. My question is, well, to phrase it more correctly, have you fixed that problem with people on physical vehicles floating away and not apearring where they should be if there is a lots of manouvring going on?

[12:20] Darien Caldwell: no, i'm the real Davido ;p

[12:20] Darien Caldwell: *giggle*

[12:20] Andrew Linden: Davido, yes I think I've reduced that specific problem.

[12:20] Davido Chrome: Yay!

[12:21] Andrew Linden: Oh, one other bit... there was an action item for me from Friday to look into why "Sunny Point" region isn't on the map.

[12:21] Davido Chrome: Darien and I switched accounts, and then computers, and now we are all confused.

[12:21] Andrew Linden: I didn't get to looking into that until right before this meeting.

[12:21] Andrew Linden: So, not much info on that yet except that it appears that the map generators are actually running well

[12:22] Sonya Haight: its not just Sunny, others are missing too

[12:22] Andrew Linden: but that there may be something wrong with the data they are reading for "Sunny Point"

[12:22] Andrew Linden: I'll be looking into that more later today.

[12:22] Simon Linden: I seem to remember there were some issues last week with the map system not completing it's regular pass to re-generate map data - that problem that leads to missing stripes of the map

[12:22] Sonya Haight: the islands in a line above and below it are missing also

[12:22] Andrew Linden: What others Sonya?

[12:22] Andrew Linden: ok, I'll look at those too.

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: theres several strips on teh map that are missing no matter teh zoom

[12:23] Sonya Haight: yes stripes are missing

[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray: Andrew there is still a huge part of mainland missing

[12:23] Theresa Tennyson: That's how map failures usually work.

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: not sure if the map server is still borked or catching up

[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray: for example the sim Harshap. That's a huge missing vertical stripe, there, Andrew

[12:23] Andrew Linden: I did a quick search in the logs right before this meeting Sonya and found a mention of "Sunny Point" there... the map generator servers had tried to generate a map for the region

[12:23] Darien Caldwell: well, according to some, it's the same sims, day after day, week after week

[12:23] Darien Caldwell: so would seem to be a regular issue on some areas

[12:23] Andrew Linden: or at least, they had received a request to update the map there

[12:23] Rex Cronon: maybe the map generator encounters an error and stop generating map tiles?

[12:23] Andrew Linden: but the map tile must not have been made

[12:24] Andrew Linden: I'm going to look for more clues.

[12:24] Andrew Linden: Right Rex, that is my theory.

[12:24] Theresa Tennyson: There's a chunk out of Gaeta V right now.

[12:24] Andrew Linden: Ok that's all I've got for news.

[12:24] Simon Linden: I wonder if they're choking on some new special setting for the content -

[12:24] Sonya Haight: I use my map constantly to move around the region so I know it went invis last Tuesday

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire: I can count over 8 vertical strips of missing tiles on the world map so far

[12:25] Sonya Haight: if so it choked during a restart Simon

[12:25] Rex Cronon: u should have a log file with all completed sim maps

[12:25] Davido Chrome: I sometimes see adjacent regions (not on the map, inworld) flicker in and out of existence. Why is that?

[12:25] MartinRJ Fayray: Andrew, here is a huge part of missing mainland map tiles:

[12:26] Andrew Linden: Hrm... interesting MartinRJ

[12:26] Nalates Urriah: Andrew, are the current changes to the Interest List as far as you intend to take this Interest List revision or do you have plans to do more?

[12:26] Qie Niangao: there are different problems with the map, some very persistent. There are parts of Zindra that I don't think have ever been mapped at one resolution ("3", if memory serves)

[12:26] Andrew Linden: Nalates, we're planning on doing more. This will just be the first installment.

[12:26] Nalates Urriah: Nice! Thx

[12:26] Andrew Linden: I wanted to actually ship improvements as they get done

[12:27] Andrew Linden: so I didn't do a major overhaul, but tried to look for ways to clean it up, speed it up, or make it more correct

[12:28] Sonya Haight: thanks Simon, that excitement earlier was still going on on someones sim.

[12:28] Andrew Linden: ok thanks for that info Qie. Sounds like the map needs some work.

[12:28] Davido Chrome: Is it google maps API?

[12:29] Andrew Linden: Yes, I thought our was using the Google maps API

[12:29] Qie Niangao: (Andrew, is that particular detail. which isn't the most recent "vertical strips missing" problem)

[12:29] Davido Chrome: I often see adjacent regions (not on the map, inworld) flicker in and out of existence. Why is that?

[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[12:30] Andrew Linden: The regions flicker when you change zoom levels

[12:30] Andrew Linden: the regions are visible in one tile level, but not another.

[12:31] Andrew Linden: There are a variety of bugs that can cause that, actually, so I'm not sure which one is at work for what you've been seeing.

[12:31] ZephyraSpathi: Can I ask a question about sim memory allocation?

[12:31] Andrew Linden: Sure Zephyra.

[12:32] Davido Chrome: This was separate from the maps. I see it in world, the looking over to the adjacent region it sometimes, kind of flickers. Poofs like it was restarted, only it is rerendered a second later.

[12:32] ZephyraSpathi: What would cause a sim's memory allocation to spike to over 1500mb in less the 24 hrs after a restart? Causing little lag but stopping attachements from being added and cause scripts to stop running?

[12:32] Qie Niangao: I think Davido might have meant the "50-seconds after you leave a sim, it blinks off momentarily, then returns" thing. if you can get to it.

[12:32] MartinRJ Fayray: hi Siana!

[12:32] Andrew Linden: Ah yes, BUG-141

[12:32] Siana Gearz: ohais.

[12:33] Davido Chrome: Nope..

[12:33] Simon Linden: Zeph - there was a problem with a lot of sensors doing that recently, but it's been since fixed

[12:33] Andrew Linden: It turns out that I think I fixed BUG-141 in my interestlist work

[12:33] ZephyraSpathi: So you've fixed it since last night?

[12:33] Andrew Linden: however, there is another viewer-side bug that also happens on region crossing

[12:33] Davido Chrome: Accidental bug fix?

[12:33] Andrew Linden: I fixed it several weeks ago in my interestlist project, which is not deployed anywhere except for some regions on the beta grid at the moment

[12:33] Davido Chrome: The one where all the objects come with you?

[12:34] Simon Linden: Zeph - no, this was earlier, like a week ago

[12:34] Andrew Linden: It was an intentional bug fix, but it was only somewhat related to what I was actually working on.

[12:34] Theresa Tennyson: They're talking about a different problem then yours, Zeph.

[12:34] Simon Linden: You had a restart, and the memory was used up quickly on Monday?

[12:34] ZephyraSpathi: Yes

[12:35] Andrew Linden: Oh right, sorry ZephyraSpathi, I got sidetracked by the other question...

[12:35] ZephyraSpathi: less then 12 hours

[12:35] Davido Chrome: [12:33:26] Andrew Linden: however, there is another viewer-side bug that also happens on region crossing

[12:35] Simon Linden: Do you know if anything new was added to the region?

[12:35] Davido Chrome: You never told us which?

[12:35] ZephyraSpathi: no nothing new was added.

[12:36] Simon Linden: ... and if you send me the region name, I can look in our tools to see if it changed release channels or anything

[12:36] Andrew Linden: Hrm... I can think of some things that might spike the memory to 1.5GB, but not something that would also prevent attachments from rezzing or scripts from working.

[12:36] Andrew Linden: Meanwhile, teleports and logins to that region work fine?

[12:36] Dee Kass: Simon It is Jinxies ,, currently offline due to 2nd server chage in less than week

[12:37] ZephyraSpathi: teeporting is fine and you login fine but all you attachments are off

[12:37] Davido Chrome: ?

[12:37] Dee Kass: exacty Andrew

[12:37] Andrew Linden: ZephyraSpathi, the problem is the same for everyone? Or only some people?

[12:37] ZephyraSpathi: everyone

[12:37] ZephyraSpathi: no matter what viewer

[12:38] Andrew Linden: I don't have many ideas on what would cause that.

[12:38] Andrew Linden: What was the region name, and when did the problem happen? What date and hour?

[12:39] Dee Kass: Andrew to answer for Zeph Jinxies sim Happening for over a month ...

[12:39] ZephyraSpathi: Jinxies it started back in september but has gotten porgressively worse to now where the memory leak went to over1500 before sim crash

[12:39] Dee Kass: restarts every 12 hours or less since Nov 4th

[12:40] Dee Kass: to correct issues

[12:40] Simon Linden: Does that get a lot of traffic?

[12:40] Dee Kass: Jinxies sim is offline at the moment due to 2nd server change

[12:40] Dee Kass: 12K to 15K a day

[12:40] Andrew Linden: Interesting... Jinxies is currenly offline. What do you mean by "2nd server change" Dee?

[12:41] Dee Kass: but it happens with only 1 on sim as well

[12:41] Simon Linden: Is that the traffic score? I have no idea what that number means ... what's a typical number of AVs there?

[12:41] Dee Kass: we were on main server .. Bianca moved sim to RC Magnum last week

[12:41] ZephyraSpathi: they moved it from main channel to magnum now to letigre

[12:42] Dee Kass: asked for move to Le Tigre over a hour ago

[12:42] Davido Chrome: I thought region ram usage was capped at 300?

[12:42] Andrew Linden: Well, tomorrow all RC's will have the same code on them.

[12:42] Simon Linden: ah, if that's the sensor bug, then you want to be on LeTigre

[12:42] Simon Linden: or Bluesteel

[12:42] Dee Kass: ok Simon Thank you Maybe all issues will be solved

[12:42] Andrew Linden: Currently two have the same version... LeTigre and BlueSteel I think, but I'll have to double check

[12:42] Simon Linden: That's correct, Andrew

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: she means region memory, not attached memory

[12:43] Dee Kass: memory allocated

[12:43] Simon Linden: All 3 will have the same version tomorrow, which will be a new one with a few more fixes

[12:43] Dee Kass: plus we get a cinstant rebake region message

[12:43] Dee Kass: constant*

[12:44] Dee Kass: with PF turned off

[12:44] Theresa Tennyson: Interestingly enough, it sounds similar to what I've heard about problems on the region Zerango and they're both escort sims.

[12:44] Andrew Linden: ok, Jinxies shouldn't be down for so long. Something went wrong when moving it to the specified channel. What channel did you want it on?

[12:44] Simon Linden: Hmm, the sensor problem should be all fixed grid-wide now. You must be hitting something else, but the RCs (as of tomorrow) should be better than the main channel

[12:44] Dee Kass: Le tigre

[12:44] Andrew Linden: Oh, Jinxies is starting now.

[12:45] Davido Chrome: Ah, reminds me. Sometimes I get rebake failure messages when I try to rebake. It also tells me I might need to relog to rebake, but relogging never works.

[12:45] Davido Chrome: The Nav mesh I mean.

[12:45] Dee Kass: yes navmesh rebuilding all the time

[12:45] Dee Kass: like it is stuck

[12:46] Davido Chrome: Dee, if you have general rez rights, could it be a new method of griefing?

[12:46] Andrew Linden: I don't have any ideas about Jinxies failure to rez attachments or run scripts.

[12:46] Dee Kass: no one gets to rez but senior staff

[12:47] Dee Kass: plus I check parceks every day

[12:47] TankMaster Finesmith thought the PF devs would be joining this UG :P

[12:47] ZephyraSpathi: it happens when the mem hits 900

[12:47] Andrew Linden: I'd have to do some forensics when it is happening, or examine the logs in detail from a past event.

[12:47] Rex Cronon: might have something to do with group permissions?

[12:47] Dee Kass: parcels*

[12:47] Dee Kass: exactly Zeph issues all tied to memory allocated

[12:48] Andrew Linden: ZephyraSpathi, where are you getting your memory number from? Some number reported in the viewer user interface?

[12:48] ZephyraSpathi: yes in the stats bar. in both= phoenix and sl

[12:48] ZephyraSpathi: slv3

[12:48] Andrew Linden: in the CTRL+SHIFT+1 stats?

[12:48] ZephyraSpathi: yes

[12:49] Dee Kass: after restart it is around 50-70 rising 100 per hour until issues at 900+ then I have restarted sim until today went to over 1600 then crash

[12:49] Qie Niangao: Simulator / Phystics Details / Memory Allocated

[12:49] Andrew Linden: Oh, in physics memory.

[12:50] ZephyraSpathi: its the only number that is so drastically changing

[12:50] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I thought physics memory was capped somewhere around 300MB, however perhaps that changed after pathfinding was added

[12:50] Andrew Linden: I'll have to ask Falcon to see what he thinks might be going on.

[12:50] ZephyraSpathi: I've never seen it go that high with out a crash anywhee else

[12:50] Dee Kass: Thank you Andrew

[12:50] Simon Linden: yeah, it usually only gets near that when there's a ton of collisions happening

[12:51] Dee Kass: hardly any collisions as I have been telling everyone to sut down

[12:51] Andrew Linden: Tell you what, next time you see it happen send me an IM with the region name and the timestamp when the physics memory spiked.

[12:51] ZephyraSpathi: ok

[12:51] Dee Kass: Thank you Andrew I will

[12:51] Andrew Linden: The timestamp is important because without it there are a lot of logs to look through.

[12:52] Dee Kass: yes understood

[12:52] Davido Chrome: And as that reminded me. Sometimes I get rebake failure messages when I try to rebake. It also tells me I might need to relog to rebake, but relogging never works.

[12:52] Dee Kass: I have a log now as well but on Magnum ..lets see if move to Le Tigre worked

[12:52] Davido Chrome: The Navmesh

[12:53] Andrew Linden: I don't know why it would suggest a relog. Are you sure its talking about a navmesh rebake Davido?

[12:53] Dee Kass: Thank you Andrew & Simon ... going to go to Jinxies now ... & Hope for the best

[12:53] Davido Chrome: It happens when I try to rebake the nav-mesh, after having terraformed and stuff.

[12:53] Davido Chrome: So yes.

[12:54] Andrew Linden: Davido, do you recall the exact or approximate wording of the alert?

[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[12:55] Davido Chrome: It says I might not have build rights. And and tells me that I might need to relog to solve the issue.

[12:56] Andrew Linden: Oh I see, it is a permissions problem, or the region thinks permissions aren't allowed.

[12:56] Andrew Linden: But you were able to modify the terrain? or not?

[12:57] Davido Chrome: Yes, I can mod the terrain, rez, return stuff. I don't own the region, my role can best be described as Janitor/landscaper.

[12:57] Andrew Linden: Davido, it sounds like there is a mismatch between the code checking for perms to modify terrain and perms to trigger a navmesh rebake.

[12:57] Davido Chrome: I do that stuff, and the people who owns it lets me have a house there for free.

[12:58] Andrew Linden: So what we would need is: who, when, where and we could probably reproduce and examine what is going wrong.

[12:58] Davido Chrome: It's weird, because it works a couple of times, and then pop, that message.

[12:58] Andrew Linden: That is weird.

[12:59] Davido Chrome: Yeah, I think what I might do different than others is that I think I am done, rebake, then I see a detail in the landscape I want to fine tune, do it, and rebake, then I realize I wasn't done after all again, and do it again.

[13:00] Davido Chrome: I haven't counted, but I think it generally happens around third or fifth rebake.

[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[13:00] Simon Linden: Are you on the same parcel? I wonder if your location has an effect

[13:01] Andrew Linden: So... did you create a jira for that problem Davido?

[13:01] Davido Chrome: Could be, I totally loose track of my avatar when I do that stuff. I cam around instead.

[13:01] Davido Chrome: No, hum, I should, shouldn't I?

[13:02] MartinRJ Fayray: Andrew I just added the screenshot I've posted before to BUG-694.

[13:02] Davido Chrome: I'll post a Jira the next time it happens, then I can copypaste the error message.

[13:03] Andrew Linden: ok thanks MartinRJ

[13:03] Andrew Linden: That would be helpful Davido.

[13:03] Davido Chrome: Gotcha.

[13:04] Andrew Linden: ok thanks for coming everyone.

[13:04] MartinRJ Fayray: goodbye Andrew, Simon, Baker!

[13:04] Davido Chrome: Thank you!

[13:04] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Lindens.

[13:04] Anton Benedict: bye

[13:04] Inara Pey: Thanks, Andrew, Simon, Baker

[13:04] Rex Cronon: tc andrew

[13:04] Baker Linden: Thank you inara!

[13:04] Baker Linden: Thanks for coming everyone!

[13:04] Rex Cronon: tc baker

[13:04] Darien Caldwell: Bye Lindens, and Andrew ;p

[13:04] Inara Pey: Love the avie, Baker

[13:04] Sonya Haight: thanks Andrew, Simon and Baker

[13:04] TankMaster Finesmith: take care baker

[13:04] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today -- see you on Thursday

[13:05] Baker Linden: Thanks!

[13:05] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens

[13:05] Davido Chrome: Oh crap, I was gonna ask how to make Pathfinding characters move in water. Next time...

[13:05] Rex Cronon: tc simon

[13:05] TankMaster Finesmith: thanks for all your work, simoin, andrew

[13:05] Rex Cronon: tc everybody and have nice day:)

[13:05] MartinRJ Fayray: Davido you can't

[13:05] MartinRJ Fayray: water isn't part of the navmesh

[13:06] Davido Chrome: Martin, i'de be happy if it can just go on the bottom...


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