Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2014.03.04

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List of Speakers

Adamburp Adamczyk Duckie Dickins Ima Mechanique
Inara Pey Jenna Felton Jonathan Yap
Kelly Linden Lucia Nightfire Mona Eberhardt
Nalates Urriah Oz Linden Rex Cronon
Simon Linden Talarus Luan Tankmaster Finesmith
Whirly Fizzle Yuzuru Jewell


[12:03] Simon Linden: OK, let's get going with the news ...

[12:03] Simon Linden: The server updates this week are in the forums :

[12:03] Inara Pey: Hey, Oz!

[12:03] Mona Eberhardt: Hello Oz.

[12:03] Oz Linden: hi all

[12:04] Rex Cronon: hi oz

[12:04] Adamburp Adamczyk: happy birthday Oz

[12:04] Simon Linden: We updated the main channel today with a minor change in the system image, there really wasn't anything visible or that should have affected the world at all

[12:04] Mona Eberhardt: Oz, did the email I sent you yesterday help at all?

[12:04] Simon Linden: Tomorrow the BlueSteel and LeTigre channels will get another maintenance project with a few bug fixes

[12:04] Oz Linden: I have not had a chance to look at it yet, Mona

[12:05] Simon Linden: The Magnum channel will have the same code with the new inventory system support

[12:05] Simon Linden: ... which you need new viewer code for

[12:05] Simon Linden: Oz - do you have any news or things to pass along?

[12:06] Mona Eberhardt nods - I hope the description and the attached snapshots will be helpful to you, especially w.r.t. the nifty visual effect that setting provided (and without any need for post-processing too, which is a very nifty bonus).

[12:06] Oz Linden: Only that it looks like we'll have a viewer with support for getting LSL hints from the server very soon

[12:06] Rex Cronon: what kind of hints oz?

[12:07] Simon Linden: ah nice .... I saw that the latest editing pass of LSL info was moving through the development process

[12:07] Simon Linden: The syntax info for LSL will come from the server, Rex, and not be baked into your viewer

[12:07] Whirly Fizzle: (Obtain LSL syntax table from simulator ) :D

[12:07] JIRA-helper: [#STORM-1831] Obtain LSL syntax table from simulator - Second Life Bug Tracker

[12:07] Oz Linden: syntax, tooltips... same stuff the built-in editor has now, but instead of using hints built into the viewer they'll be fetched from the server, so they'll be in sync with what the server really does

[12:07] Talarus Luan: Finally. :P

[12:07] Tankmaster Finesmith: the viewer download a list of lsl comands the server supports

[12:08] Tankmaster Finesmith: basicly

[12:08] Rex Cronon: this one:

[12:08] Rex Cronon: ?

[12:08] Ima Mechanique: damn, that's news to me

[12:08] Oz Linden: that's the copy that the viewer will have as a backup, but it may not be current

[12:08] Ima Mechanique: ;-)


[12:09] Oz Linden: Ima has been doing this, and we're in the home stretch now

[12:09] Oz Linden: along the way, we've improved a lot of the help content actually

[12:09] Talarus Luan: Cool. Glad it is seeing the light of day.

[12:10] Talarus Luan: Been waiting a long time for it. :)

[12:10] Oz Linden: Watch for a Snowstorm release candidate...

[12:10] Rex Cronon: i am curious. could that uptoday xml file be accessed with a regular web browser?

[12:10] Rex Cronon: uptodate*

[12:11] Ima Mechanique: sure, you'd want a style sheet for it though

[12:11] Tankmaster Finesmith: yeay fr more duplicate viewer code to remove during mergeing..

[12:11] Oz Linden: not easily

[12:11] Oz Linden: what good would it be?

[12:11] Oz Linden: it's not really organized for human consumption

[12:12] Simon Linden: It's passed to the viewer as a capability URL, fwiw

[12:12] Nalates Urriah: It could be accessed by other programs like LSL Editor...

[12:12] Rex Cronon: lets say u have lsl obfuscator and u need it to parse that file to extract the latest functions and constants:)

[12:12] Ima Mechanique: that's why he'd need a style file to organise it for reading ;-)

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire: lsl obfuscators are redundant, heh

[12:12] Talarus Luan: A LSL obfuscator? Really? :P

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: compiling is server side

[12:13] Jonathan Yap: Ima, where does that file get stored on one's local HD?

[12:13] Ima Mechanique: in the cach Jonathan

[12:13] Ima Mechanique: cache

[12:13] Rex Cronon: yes talarus:

[12:13] Tankmaster Finesmith: what good is a lsl obfuscater?

[12:14] Talarus Luan: Educational project?

[12:14] Ima Mechanique: currently there's a default file for fall back in the same location as keywords.ini is now. but that may be removed

[12:14] Rex Cronon: it can have different uses...

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire: obfuscated lsl code can easily be unobfuscated

[12:15] Talarus Luan: Simon, has Andrew had any time to look at that Keyframed animation bug that's been around since, like, forevah?

[12:15] Jonathan Yap: Andrew?

[12:16] Rex Cronon: lol lucy. even good scripter need around 20 minutes to do it and they still don't get the original version:)

[12:16] Nalates Urriah: I'm pretty sure Andrew has not looked at it....

[12:16] Simon Linden: Andrew hasn't had any time, no

[12:16] Talarus Luan: Did Andrew leave or something?

[12:16] Simon Linden: he is no longer at Linden

[12:16] Ima Mechanique: yes

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire: would be nice if that auotreturn defeating KF exploit was fixed too

[12:16] Talarus Luan: I missed the memo

[12:16] Inara Pey: Given Andrew's at High Fidelity, probably not ?

[12:16] Nalates Urriah: He went to High Fidelity

[12:16] Talarus Luan: So I guess that bug is now a lavaflow.

[12:17] Simon Linden: which bug is that? Do you have the jira number?

[12:17] Simon Linden: Speaking of jira numbers, it will open up Real Soon Now

[12:17] Whirly Fizzle: Lucia's is I guess

[12:17] Whirly Fizzle: Other one is probably

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, sadly deemed expected behaviour when set pos doesn't do taht

[12:18] Simon Linden: Talarus - you're talking about keyframed motion and returns?

[12:18] Rex Cronon: we have to sing a contribution agreement to use jira?

[12:18] Talarus Luan: SVC-7556\

[12:18] Rex Cronon: sign*

[12:18] Talarus Luan: SVC-7556

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: only KF travel across parcels prevents autoreturn

[12:18] Simon Linden: ah ok ... it's ping-ponging between parcels

[12:19] Yuzuru Jewell: I can't see BUG-1624..

[12:19] Lucia Nightfire: its a favorite amonog certain griefers of teh Linden WT region, heh

[12:19] Talarus Luan: No, it's the translation-stops-on-sim-restart bug

[12:19] Lucia Nightfire: until I shut them down with a request to make the parcels no entry

[12:19] Oz Linden: The new Jira configuration that will let you browse BUG is not active yet... coming soon

[12:19] Simon Linden: That is how parcel timing is designed ... it measures the current time in the parcel, so if you leave and come back, it's reset

[12:20] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Oz.

[12:20] Simon Linden: So there's a loophole there, yes ... and I don't think we've come up with a good alternative

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire: setting a prim position in and out of teh parcel eventually causes teh prim to return, except when it leaves teh region and comes back in

[12:21] Talarus Luan: So nothing for SVC-7556?

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire: kf can go in and out of the parcel for literally weeks w/o return

[12:21] Talarus Luan: Well, so can any physical object, really.

[12:22] Simon Linden: Are you still seeing that one, Talarus?

[12:22] Talarus Luan: Yes

[12:23] Jonathan Yap: Simon, you can keep track of the autoreturn countdown when the prim is in the parcel, when it leaves and comes back resume the countdown

[12:23] Talarus Luan: I have had the same object on my work platform for years now, and it still stops if the sim restarts after I have reset it

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: not sure if kf can keep going if time has lapse greater than its inputted setting, which is why it stops since that time has elapsed globally since the restart?

[12:23] Talarus Luan: UNless it has been addressed in the last month or so

[12:24] Simon Linden: yeah, that's a good point ... suspending in the middle of KF motion and resuming with that huge time jump sounds really ugly

[12:24] Simon Linden: I haven't tried it, but if you want to code for that, it might be best to detect the region restart event, reset the position and re-start the key frame motion

[12:24] Bear Hunt Start: Bear Quest Start touched by Oz Linden

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: ^

[12:25] Talarus Luan: OK, so lavaflow.

[12:25] Simon Linden: I don't know what you mean by that, but sure :)

[12:26] Talarus Luan: It is a programming term which means that some anomaly has become so ingrained in the system, it becomes "the way things are done now".

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: like group chat lag, heh

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: "Oh thats group chat lag. You'll get used to it. Welcome to SL btw, lol"

[12:27] Talarus Luan: Though it usually applies more to unintended features that everyone uses, like WarpPos

[12:27] Tankmaster Finesmith: never heard of it before, talarus...

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire: Warppos sucks now that we have region pos

[12:27] Talarus Luan: What? WarpPos or Lavaflow?

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire: and fails when no entry parcels are in line of sight to the target pos

[12:28] Adamburp Adamczyk: they did "phat bass"

[12:28] Simon Linden: That's likely to be the way it is for a while ... given the other things that need attention, it's not likely to get to the top of the list soon

[12:28] Adamburp Adamczyk: excellent biking track#

[12:28] Adamburp Adamczyk: *CENSORED*

[12:28] Adamburp Adamczyk: warp bros, not warp pos

[12:28] Talarus Luan: Also, what's the status of update/interest list issues with high-prim avs?

[12:29] Rex Cronon: u just need to convince the ceo that it needs to be done...

[12:29] Talarus Luan: Still seeing a lot of linksets not fully updating alpha and such.

[12:29] Adamburp Adamczyk: where's baker?

[12:29] Whirly Fizzle: The llSetLinkAlpha issue?

[12:29] Talarus Luan: Oh, yeah, "LL CEO of the week". P

[12:29] Simon Linden: that's un-related to the objects being on an AV, I believe ... it's a known bug for trying to change lots of prims in a large linkset

[12:29] Ima Mechanique:

[12:30] Talarus Luan: Well, it applies to various ways of updating large linksets

[12:30] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah it repros on rezzed linksets too

[12:30] Simon Linden: ... and I don't have any news or vague promises on it

[12:30] Simon Linden: Baker is not able to make it today

[12:30] Mona Eberhardt: And llSetLinkColor too, Whirly.

[12:30] Talarus Luan: Yes, I know, but it is particularly noticeable on certain avs which have prims sticking out all over the place.

[12:30] Talarus Luan: It increases our support load.

[12:30] Whirly Fizzle: is the JIRA for that

[12:31] Talarus Luan: k.still can't see it.

[12:31] Whirly Fizzle: Soon!

[12:31] Talarus Luan: Heh. that's a loaded word around these here parts. :P

[12:31] Simon Linden: It's useful vocabulary for making promises

[12:32] Whirly Fizzle: Ta but this is the normal definition of soon, not the usual Linden-soon :P

[12:32] Talarus Luan: ..that are likely never to be kept anyway. :P

[12:32] Tankmaster Finesmith: at least its not the trademarked version of soon :P

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt: I can't see that JIRA, Whirly. I thought the overhaul of the JIRA would have allowed me to.

[12:32] Simon Linden: we're doing what we can, Talarus

[12:32] Simon Linden: The change in permissions hasn't happened yet

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt: Ah.

[12:32] Talarus Luan: Yeah, I know. It's always the frustration

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt: When should we expect it, Simon?

[12:33] Rex Cronon: its weird. when jira acces was turned off it happened a lot faster

[12:33] Simon Linden: and I don't know what the decision on previous bugs will be, fwiw ... there are valid questions about earlier bugs being opened up. I believe only _new_ bug reports will have general visibility

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: I half way agree

[12:34] Nalates Urriah: Oh that will ne awkward.

[12:34] Talarus Luan: Wasn't that Rod's big idea... to close public JIRA projects?

[12:34] Adamburp Adamczyk: a lot of the jira talk is pure conjecture atm - best wait til it;s open for business then start a grumbling

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: mainly for misfilings of stuff taht should have been SEC, but was never changed

[12:34] Adamburp Adamczyk: once we see waht is/is not visible

[12:34] Simon Linden: well, let's say I filed a bug 6 months ago that was "my embarassing attachment isn't working" with the expectation that it was between me and Linden Lab ... I don't want everyone to read that now

[12:34] Whirly Fizzle: lol

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: theres a ton of mp failure jiras too, heh

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: and partner failures

[12:35] Ima Mechanique: mp?

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: mp = marketplace

[12:35] Rex Cronon: SEC is imo useless. its the same thing as security through obfuscation;)

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle: Oh but theres a workaround for that partner bug finally!

[12:35] Adamburp Adamczyk: new dude tweeted that mp is on his list of stuff to do, right after he figures out teh coffee pot

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: SEC isn't useless, theres stuff you don't want the educated griefers seeing, heh

[12:35] Simon Linden: Right .. I am not sorting out the details but I believe that is why only new jiras will be open. There may be some shuffling of old BUG to a jira type like "OLDBUG"

[12:35] Ima Mechanique: yes Whirly, don't get a paertner ;-)

[12:36] Ima Mechanique: that way your partner never gets buggy!!

[12:36] Talarus Luan: Is there any potential for new(old) suggestions to remotely having a chance to see the light of day?

[12:36] Whirly Fizzle: I have one. He's stupid (literlally hehehe)

[12:36] Rex Cronon: nevertheless it is security through obfuscation:)

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire: your statement is obfuscated, lol

[12:37] Talarus Luan: Passwords are security through obfuscation, but I don't see anyone harping on tossing them out anytime soon. :P

[12:37] Rex Cronon: now u don't a pass, u need a finger;)

[12:38] Rex Cronon: fingerprint that is

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire: Simon and Kelly, what are your thoughts on reducing the reported script timing trend from 30 min to 1 min?

[12:38] rcdsQueChatLog: Duckie Dickins, you can read the log here:

[12:38] Simon Linden: Sorry, had a visitor for a bit

[12:39] Simon Linden: I don't understand what script timing / data you mean, Lucy

[12:39] Simon Linden: 30 minutes sounds like a long time, however

[12:39] Kelly Linden: I don't either lucy.

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: the script timing metric with llGetObjectDetails()

[12:40] Kelly Linden: ahh.

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire: OBJECT_SCRIPT_TIME

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: some would rather have 0 minute trends, but I feel a trend is still necessary, but only a quick trend

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire: def not over 30 min though

[12:41] Simon Linden: yeah, that seems really long .. you'd have to wait a lot to measure the effect of adding and removing scripts

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: and seeign scripts in use and stopping

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: if a person has been in teh region for >30 min and then starts using a particular script its avg into the time its been active

[12:43] Kelly Linden: I think the current interval is ~10 minutes. not 30

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: I'd like to see near real tiem usage as well as near real time decay

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: but not abs 0

[12:43] Jenna Felton: hello all

[12:43] Rex Cronon: hi

[12:44] Whirly Fizzle: Heya jenna

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire: a quick trend is still useful

[12:44] Kelly Linden: I don't think 1min of data gives you enough time to find what caused a momentary issue

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire: then 2 min, lol

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: I just don't want changes being avg into 30 min of idle data

[12:45] Kelly Linden: its averaged into 10min, not 30.

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire: or 10 min, whatever the actual limit is atm

[12:48] Talarus Luan: So, I take it that the large prim linkset bug is something we just need to tell our customers to deal with, as it is a SL/LL issue?

[12:49] Kelly Linden: The overhead in tracking that stat goes up the shoter the rolling window. I kind of think 10m is a good balance between overheaf, being able to find offenders and being short enough that offenders show up even if they only briefly spike. However I'd consider akternate proposals especially with specific examples where the current system fails.

[12:49] Simon Linden: It's a known bug, Talarus, and we'd like to fix it but I can't promise a date on it

[12:50] Talarus Luan: Well, I am not looking for a date; never do. Just that it is something that someone is actively looking into with some hope of being resolved.

[12:50] Kelly Linden: wow, lots of typos, sorry.

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: One problem is the decay of script time for people entering a region.

[12:51] Tankmaster Finesmith: speel check ftw!

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: It takes too long to down trend script time.

[12:51] Simon Linden: It's on our list of things that needs to be done, and doesn't have anyone assigned to it now

[12:52] Mona Eberhardt: Weee... Adobe Flash: Crashing people's computers ever since Macromedia was purchased by Adobe.

[12:52] Rex Cronon: ?

[12:53] Mona Eberhardt: I crashed... Thanks to Flash. :/

[12:53] Adamburp Adamczyk: Flash! Aaaaaaa! Saviour of the universe!

[12:53] Ima Mechanique: Mona, that was a little random

[12:53] Rex Cronon: oh

[12:53] Ima Mechanique: ahh, makes more sense

[12:53] Tankmaster Finesmith: then dont use flash!

[12:53] Mona Eberhardt: Youtube uses it, Tank. :/

[12:53] Rex Cronon: were u watching videos:)

[12:53] Whirly Fizzle: Disable hardware acceleration for flash Mona. - if it was your graphics driver that crashed.

[12:54] Ima Mechanique: I try not to, but it gets every where ;-)

[12:54] Tankmaster Finesmith: you dont have to use flash to see youtube vids

[12:54] Tankmaster Finesmith: not if you have a html5 compliant browser anyway

[12:54] Mona Eberhardt: I'm on the latest Firefox.

[12:54] Simon Linden: if anyone has SL topics, please feel free to toss 'em out there ....

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: exp perms

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: when are we geting the details, heh

[12:55] Simon Linden: how about weather?

[12:55] Tankmaster Finesmith: cloudy but warm

[12:55] Nalates Urriah:

[12:55] Talarus Luan: Where are we going with SL? What's the new CEO pushing for?

[12:56] Rex Cronon: come on simon. we don't really want to toss them;)

[12:56] Tankmaster Finesmith: new ceo is taking a 'lets see whats going on now first; approach

[12:56] Mona Eberhardt: How about reviewing the master account idea?

[12:56] Simon Linden: We're a lot more focused on short term work here, Talarus, but personally I'll say I'm happy with the attention Ebbe is giving to SL and the things he's talking about. I think the change in jira is a good example that he's not afraid to adjust things

[12:56] Jonathan Yap: Was there any talk about bringing back choseable last names?

[12:56] Tankmaster Finesmith: yes

[12:57] Rex Cronon: lets hope that the new ceo gets to adjust the TOS too:)

[12:57] Talarus Luan: Oh, it has been a few months so I guess I should put in my token request for SCR-4

[12:57] Whirly Fizzle: Ebbe did say he was looking at the last name situation on the forum

[12:57] Talarus Luan: Sorry.. hit a function bind

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk: Give Ebeb a chance I say

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk: he has a LOT of customers to win over

[12:57] Tankmaster Finesmith: ebbe tweeted he was willing to readd them and would look into it, but also saud that current accounts with a last name of 'Resident wouldnt be able to change that

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk: Ebbe*

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk: his tweets so far are positive

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk: that he's lsitening

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: The throwaway acct griefers will like being able to make silly full names again, heh.

[12:58] Adamburp Adamczyk: only a coupel of weeks into the job, jira

[12:58] Adamburp Adamczyk: positive results s o far, no?

[12:58] Mona Eberhardt: Can anything be done about trolls, griefers and stalkers and their armies of alts?

[12:58] Adamburp Adamczyk: I say we all buy him soem headache aspirirn and coffee

[12:59] Mona Eberhardt: They're *really* bad for LL's business, mind you.

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: @Mona, sadly, no

[12:59] Rex Cronon: it would be a very positive sign if chat group starts working fine:)

[12:59] Duckie Dickins: unicode character stripping out of display names. That's my pet peeve. :)

[12:59] Adamburp Adamczyk: Mona, the gov linden accs have been seen lately

[12:59] Talarus Luan: End free accounts?

[12:59] Mona Eberhardt: Heh. I wouldn't mind if free accounts were axed.

[12:59] Rex Cronon: haha talarus

[12:59] Adamburp Adamczyk: I pm;d Ebbe about moving AR away from S*****k and back to LL

[13:00] Talarus Luan: I'm not joking. <.<

[13:00] Rex Cronon: u so funny:)

[13:00] Tankmaster Finesmith: oh, baker said that the group chat lag was assigend to someone now

[13:00] Ima Mechanique: heh, is there anyone here that didn't start with a free account?

[13:00] Tankmaster Finesmith: WorkingOnIt Linden

[13:00] Kelly Linden: I didn't start with a free account.

[13:00] Talarus Luan raises claw

[13:00] Mona Eberhardt raises hand

[13:00] Whirly Fizzle: I did

[13:00] Jonathan Yap: I have friends who started with a paid account

[13:00] Ima Mechanique: me neither, but there aren't many of us

[13:00] Whirly Fizzle: My alts are all free accounts.

[13:01] Ima Mechanique: $9.99 just to sign up ;-)

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt: My first account was premium, and I started this one premium, then downgraded...

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: theres no resource restriction on free accounts, sadly

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt: And then went premium again.

[13:01] Rex Cronon: starting without a free account is like buying a car without testdriving it:)

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt: I wonder how many of the "36 million users" are actual users and not sockpuppets and throwaway accounts.

[13:02] Talarus Luan: Well, enjoy the armies of griefers and trolls then

[13:02] Duckie Dickins: probably 1/3 users

[13:02] Ima Mechanique: however I'd like all new accounts to verify their email address, which I didn't have to do last time I signed up an alt

[13:02] Simon Linden: I'll wrap up and say that there's a lot of good talking going on about what works in SL, what doesn't, what we've tried before and all that ... as you know some changes take a lot of time and work, others can be done quickly. But overall I'm more optimistic than I was 6 months ago, and I like that

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire: griefing is still considered an edge case, heh

[13:02] Talarus Luan: The only way you're ever going to effectively rid SL of most of them is to make it expensive.

[13:02] Mona Eberhardt: Speaking of which, something should be done about the rampant sockpuppetry in the forums and feeds.

[13:02] Kelly Linden: I need to go eat lunch. o/

[13:02] Rex Cronon: how many people would start nowdays with a paying account if they really understand the tos?

[13:03] Tankmaster Finesmith: good to hear, simon

[13:03] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today ... I'll see you next week


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