Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2014.03.25

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List of Speakers

Adamburp Adamczyk Duckie Dickins
Inara Pey Jenna Felton
Lucia Nightfire Martinrj Fayray
Mona Eberhardt Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon Simon Linden
Stickman Ingmann Theresa Tennyson


[12:01] Simon Linden: Welcome everyone ...

[12:01] Martinrj Fayray: hello Simon

[12:01] rcdsQueChatLog: Rex Cronon, you can read the log here:

[12:01] Adamburp Adamczyk: ayup

[12:01] Simon Linden: this week is fairly light on news as there was no server update today

[12:01] Jenna Felton: hello Kelly

[12:02] Simon Linden: Tomorrow there will be a new maintenance release going into the Magnum RC channel

[12:02] Lucia Nightfire: we can always talk about bugs and shineys

[12:02] Stickman Ingmann: I noticed a lack of region reboot messages.

[12:03] rcdsQueChatLog: Duckie Dickins, you can read the log here:

[12:03] Simon Linden: The notes are here

[12:04] Simon Linden: The most interesting part of the release is the LSL syntax update, I think ... that system should be working better

[12:04] Lucia Nightfire: lol, siwo

[12:04] Duckie Dickins: I think Laggy is stuck behind the chair. :0

[12:05] Simon Linden: yeah, he seems pretty stuck

[12:05] Simon Linden: and now he's stuck on the next one

[12:05] Duckie Dickins: phantom chairs for the win

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire: no kf kat

[12:06] Simon Linden: So the table's open for questions or topics ... fire away :)

[12:06] Stickman Ingmann: I had a long gap without coming to meetings. Is Andrew still with us?

[12:06] Mona Eberhardt: Can I haz LSL control of normal & specular maps and their parameters?

[12:06] Rex Cronon: nope

[12:06] Stickman Ingmann: I double that motion, Mona.

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire: ^

[12:06] Simon Linden: No Stickman, he left Linden Lab at the end of the year

[12:06] Stickman Ingmann: Or second. But that's trademarked or something.

[12:07] Stickman Ingmann: Aw. Sad I didn't get to say goodbye.

[12:07] Simon Linden: It's on the list of stuff to do, Mona, but I don't have any updates

[12:07] Duckie Dickins: It was brought up at Nyx's meeting if there was any progress with sound functionality being expanded like was discussed a few times with pitch changing and playing sounds in a child link from the root prim, etc etc.

[12:08] Stickman Ingmann: Sound functionality is changing? I've been wanting better sound controls. Everything is always too loud or too quiet.

[12:08] Mona Eberhardt: Duckie's proposition is also a really good one. llLinkPlaySound, I think?

[12:09] Duckie Dickins: I think it was Motor Loon's idea initially but it was discussed here several times.

[12:09] Mona Eberhardt: That way, we could drop a script in the floor of a big room and have sounds coming from a radio somewhere in it or from other parts - and without too many scripts in the sim!

[12:09] Mona Eberhardt: I stand corrected. :/

[12:09] Simon Linden: yeah, the sound functions could use an overhaul ... there are definitely things that could be done with it. I haven't heard of any actual work, however, in that area

[12:10] Mona Eberhardt: Now that Vivox reportedly started fixing its code, are there any hopes of seeing SEC-1376 getting fixed?

[12:11] Simon Linden: There's always hope, I hope

[12:11] Rex Cronon: hopefully:)

[12:12] Inara Pey: Anything interesting come to light in the logs from last Thursday's mini group chat test?

[12:12] Jenna Felton: that was a big group chat test?

[12:12] Simon Linden: I know someone had approached them about it ... we have a regular meeting with Vivox so I'll add it to the next agenda to check on the status

[12:12] Mona Eberhardt: Thanks Simon.

[12:13] Rex Cronon: big in the sense it was very spammy;)

[12:13] Simon Linden: It didn't have any surprises, Inara, but that was a good result

[12:13] Jenna Felton: i was not there, read in the log just :)

[12:13] Inara Pey nods

[12:14] Inara Pey: So going ahead with the Agni group testing as discussed at the meeting?

[12:14] Simon Linden: That test was mostly checking out the new statistics it gathered, which worked fine too.

[12:15] Simon Linden: yes, that's the next big step but it's been delayed a bit due to some people being out of the office. I'm hoping to do something next week ... I think that's the earliest possible

[12:15] Simon Linden: In the mean time I'm working on another layer in the back-end system that is inefficient, so I'm hoping to finish that up today or tomorrow and roll it in together

[12:16] Inara Pey: Good stuff

[12:17] Simon Linden: There is some code we call the "presence system" which tracks where you are in the grid ... the group chat relies on it heavily as it must distribute the messages out to the regions you're on. I think I can make that run better

[12:17] Stickman Ingmann: What's LL's next step, by the way? We had Windlight, and avatar imposters, and mesh. There were several shelved projects, like C#. Are we housekeeping right now, or is there another big item being planned? I haven't been keeping up with things.

[12:19] Seewo (siwo): LSL3 would be nice :)

[12:19] Simon Linden: I can't talk about anything that's not announced, sorry, or general plans for LL or our products.

[12:19] Jenna Felton: i have also a question. Is there a relativelly easy explanation how to build vehicles that will cross sims with less problems. I have one that can not cross sims without crashing me off the vehicle. Is there something the creator can do, and is there a relativelly simple way to find out what is the most problem, scripts, prims, avatar or something else?

[12:20] Stickman Ingmann: So for now, "housekeeping." Alright.

[12:21] Simon Linden: I'm not sure I know any way, Jenna, that you probably don't already know ... certainly keeping the script and mesh load minimized is good

[12:21] Stickman Ingmann: When I'm troubleshooting, I strip the thing down to the barest test case. In this case, get a plywood cube, make it a basic vehicle, and drive it across. if it works fine, start adding things that your vehicle has. Up the prim count to equal that vehicle, add in the extra scripts one at a time, etc.

[12:21] Simon Linden: As you know there is some problem there we haven't been able to pinpoint and fix ... it's still too common to have a vehicle crossing go bad

[12:22] Rex Cronon: its like when kids go in a empty box and preted its a car:)

[12:22] Simon Linden: Sometimes it's not the vehicle but the AV that doesn't get there in time too ... so AV costs become a factor

[12:22] Jenna Felton: ok, thank you

[12:23] Jenna Felton: i tested that vehicle with a library avatar and the mesh i have now on, with 15 scripts and with cuffs and 300 scripts, with firestorm and with linden viewer :) was the same with the car

[12:23] Simon Linden: AFAIK it's not a simple, hard limit of X prims or Y scripts ... there are a lot of other factors about timing that come into play and can make it go bad

[12:23] Simon Linden: they mis-behaved the same way, Jenna?

[12:24] Martinrj Fayray: can't you just have a phantom-duplicate of the avatars of region x in the surrounding regions already loaded, so you don't have to load all at once at the moment of the region crossing?

[12:25] Jenna Felton: yes, mostly when you cross the sim, the vehicle looked as move backwards, than you dont see it at all and then you land somewhere, and the car somewhere else or in last&found

[12:26] Simon Linden: You already to have a connection and object there, Martin ... that's what child agents are

[12:27] Simon Linden: but at the moment of crossing, it needs to stop, pack up your AV state in entirety (and scripts are by far the most costly part of it), send that to the next region, unpack it, start up your scripts and convert that child agent into a full one ... and do the same for the vehicle, and make sure you end up attached to it

[12:28] Simon Linden: all without noticeable lag, of course :P

[12:28] Martinrj Fayray: and it's not possible to have all that already loaded ?

[12:28] Martinrj Fayray: (like a real-time dupe of the avatar in adjacent regions)

[12:28] Simon Linden: no, your scripts are likely to change state every frame

[12:28] Jenna Felton: is there a way to split that information, for example send some scripts before you go over the border?

[12:28] Simon Linden: we've thought of that ... it gets really complicated to get it right

[12:29] Qie Niangao: sounds scary, to be honest, having duplicate data. Like... which one to believe?

[12:29] Mona Eberhardt: And if, at the last moment, you change your mind and don't cross the border, Jenna? :/

[12:29] Mona Eberhardt: What Qie said.

[12:29] Stickman Ingmann: If it was, it sounds like it would eliminate the ability to have large conferences at the four-corners of several regions. If all avatars are loaded and emulated in all regions. It'd basically turn every region into 4x size and duplicate processing. Then if anything's calculated different or a packet is lost you get desync. Sounds like fun.

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire: I know, huge region size options, heh 1024x1024 2048x2048 65536x65536 stop me when I go overboard

[12:29] Simon Linden: yes ... and how much extra work would be do if someone walks up to the sim edge, but doesn't cross?

[12:29] Martinrj Fayray: or 9x

[12:29] Stickman Ingmann: Yes. 9x.

[12:30] Jenna Felton: than the information remains a while in cache. and only wiped out much later, because you could change mind and cross the border later

[12:30] Seewo (siwo): I must say... I explore mainland a lot, whether by car or on paws... and in last 3 months, I have got not a single "death" on sim crossing. Much better than what it used to be :)

[12:30] Simon Linden: yeah, I would love to work on large regions ... I did a pretty good dive into it a couple of years ago

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: 9x,16x,25x,1000x

[12:30] Stickman Ingmann: Just rebuilt SL to be peer to peer. All users emulate all their own physics and movement and are responsible for transmitting that data to all nearby people themselves. I'm sure that'll work fine.

[12:30] Mona Eberhardt: Speaking of large regions, Simon, do you mean what is usually referred to as a megaregion?

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: lol

[12:31] Rex Cronon: u just need your users to have gigabite network connections:)

[12:31] Rex Cronon: gigabyte*

[12:31] Simon Linden: unfortunately the 256x256 region space is carved into the SL design all over ... from the database to the simuators to the viewer and the messages. Changing that would be huge

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: that def counts poor Rex out

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: SL 4.0 or wth it would be

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt: That'd limit SL's clientele to the city of Chattanooga, Rex.

[12:32] Rex Cronon: what? do all of u guys have that kind of a internet connection?

[12:32] Simon Linden: no

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: yes, we do

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: bah

[12:32] Stickman Ingmann: I would like to see servers decoupled from the grid. Paying for resources -- script processing and land impact -- and have the actual space be nearly unlimited. LL's business model is tied to region rentals, though. But it would allow SL to become a real time collaborate game engine where you can make space games with no ground and zero gravity, and RTS games with huge maps, and all sorts of things. That's what I want SL to be.

[12:32] Stickman Ingmann: Vote Stickman for CEO.

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt: Nope, but Chattanooga's citizens can have gigabit for $70/month.

[12:33] Duckie Dickins: you can make an existing region bigger by scaling your avatar size down...and of course, slowing your walking speed.. It's all about perception really. If you were a petite avatar and built to that scale...your region would be so much bigger. :D

[12:33] Stickman Ingmann: Very true, Duckie.

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: micropolis

[12:33] Rex Cronon: i think u need to go to nano level

[12:33] Stickman Ingmann: What would bigotry against avatar size be called?

[12:33] Mona Eberhardt: Penny Patton's camera offsets are a good way of making a region seem noticeably bigger.

[12:33] Simon Linden: I spent a day looking into the idea of a "region scale" factor ... so you could rez objects and they get resized accordingly. It's a fun idea

[12:34] Theresa Tennyson: One of the things Rift users are noticing is that SL can look odd from a "human" perspective.

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: it looks "tooney"

[12:35] Duckie Dickins: but it is toony.

[12:35] Stickman Ingmann: It doesn't have to be.

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: all depends on what you're looking at

[12:35] Simon Linden: The Rift brings up a lot of really interesting challenges ... like how to add a UI into a 3D space

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: 90% of teh grid is tooney though, he

[12:35] Duckie Dickins: How about changing to cryengine, Simon. :D

[12:35] Qie Niangao: (of course, Rift users look odd from a "human" perspective, too. :p )

[12:36] Simon Linden: That would be fun, Duckie :)

[12:36] Stickman Ingmann: Hah. Yeah. Has SL looked into translating into a new engine? I vote Unreal 4.

[12:36] Seewo (siwo): when you start using almost RL-like scale sims will "become" much bigger:)

[12:36] Rex Cronon: that is hud is 4 simon:)

[12:36] Simon Linden: The new licensing of 3D engines is really interesting ... they're aggressively trying to get developers and market-share

[12:37] Stickman Ingmann: Aye. A lot of engines are "free" to develop, and you just pay royalties.

[12:37] Theresa Tennyson: Blue Mars tried CryEngine. They ended up giving the whole world to Ball State University.

[12:37] Stickman Ingmann: Blue Mars restricted development too much.

[12:37] Jenna Felton: as long Unreal not supported by linux or supports it, i think moving to Unreal Engine is not so good idea :)

[12:38] Stickman Ingmann: I thought they'd added Linux support. I could be mistaken. My news on that is old.

[12:38] Stickman Ingmann: Yep, supported.

[12:38] Jenna Felton: ah, ok. my last info was they dont support it. thank you

[12:38] Stickman Ingmann: UE4 does.

[12:38] Mona Eberhardt: Yes, it does:

[12:39] Stickman Ingmann: After what Gaben said about Linux being the gaming platform of the future, I'm not surprised. They had to have been working on it already, though.

[12:39] Simon Linden: and of course it all has to run on phones, tablets, web browsers, cheap laptops and high-end gaming systems :)

[12:39] Jenna Felton: that is cool

[12:39] Theresa Tennyson: Any new engine will become obsolete before everything can get converted over.

[12:40] Theresa Tennyson: Don't forget PowerPC Macs, Simon... Save the Tiger!

[12:40] Simon Linden: we're not going to support Motorola 68k CPUs, however

[12:40] Seewo (siwo): :D

[12:40] Mona Eberhardt: And let me go on record that, ever since the Xorg update that forced me to get back to Windows (as AMD/ATI's legacy drivers don't support newer Xorg versions), I keep regretting it. Crashes galore. Who said Windows 7 64-bit is stable? On Linux, I didn't know what it was like to crash.

[12:41] Jenna Felton: I beleive if SL moves to new engine, SL would need a prim to mesh converter with meshes that are no more fixe but parametrized like prims are :)

[12:41] Jenna Felton: in order you can convert the all user generated content

[12:42] Duckie Dickins: It's nice to dream..but I don't see that as being cost effective.

[12:42] Stickman Ingmann: Prims can be decomposed into mesh, including LODs. They'll be less efficient than actual mesh tailored for the design, but it'd work.

[12:42] Simon Linden: Yes Jenna -- any new engine brings with it their own requirements for models, animations, etc. It would be really difficult to bring existing SL content into a whole new system like that ... the best you could get might be some sort of converter, but even that gets hard as so many models in SL are inefficient

[12:42] Stickman Ingmann: Yeah. How many petabytes of user content are there again?

[12:43] Simon Linden: I forget ... but far too much :)

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: better question would be how many petabytes of content are not accessed every year on average

[12:44] Mona Eberhardt: Lucy, I think that'd end up being a chase for object that no one uses anymore. This, however, would be quite a wild goose chase.

[12:44] Simon Linden: We have a system that tries to remove inaccessible content ... it's a really interesting problem given how much there is

[12:45] Mona Eberhardt: Like shoes that consist only of prims, Simon?

[12:45] Stickman Ingmann: And then you've got the multiple players. What if an object in an object references a script? Delete the original script from inventory. Is it safe to delete the script?

[12:45] Theresa Tennyson: I was reading a JIRA from someone who was having mysterious lag issues - and a 100,000 item inventory. That's more than the population of 12 European countries.

[12:45] Stickman Ingmann: And what if a script references the UUID of a texture, but that script is in an object in an object?

[12:45] Duckie Dickins: an even more interesting one would be how many petabytes of content is of questionable origin, i.e. possible intellectual property disputes.....

[12:46] Jenna Felton: when an asset is inside another, than its easy to find out

[12:46] Stickman Ingmann: If no one files a DMCA, is it really infringement?

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire: 35% Duck

[12:46] Jenna Felton: because every asset even that in another asset is stil present in the database.

[12:46] Jenna Felton: but when you reffer something in a notecard or script by UUID. than its not so easy

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire: I did a month long eval a few years ago of unique guests entering a few sandboxes and I found 35% were either wearing stuff they copybotted or someone else copybotted, heh

[12:47] Simon Linden: Yes Theresa ... there was some questions about how they got so many items, but that's another story :)

[12:48] Rex Cronon: people get lots of freebies...

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: yes, lol

[12:48] Duckie Dickins: I dunno...I got a 40K inventory and much of it is still packed up.

[12:48] Jenna Felton: i was freeby hunter :)

[12:48] Mona Eberhardt: Or even stuff they reproduced the "pencil-paper-calculator" way, Lucy.

[12:48] Duckie Dickins: and all of my thousands of textures are in an organizer...but textures alone could get ya up there

[12:48] Simon Linden: it takes some work to get an inventory that large ... but it can be done :)

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: offline inv offer spamming

[12:49] Rex Cronon: simon. i doesn't take work. it happens without u realizing:)

[12:49] Jenna Felton: and it takes longer to reduce that large inventory back to normal level :)

[12:49] Jenna Felton: unles a trivial case by close-eyes-and delete-all

[12:49] Qie Niangao: Hard to justify the time needed to tidy-up inventory. Like... who ever deletes email anymore?

[12:49] Duckie Dickins: I remember my first week in SL someone gave me a pack of 21000 textures...I didn't bother unpacking them all :D

[12:50] Simon Linden: yeah cleaning up isn't as much fun

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire: got a question, which I probably already know the answer too, but I'll still ask

[12:50] Inara Pey confesses to being a tad OCD with her inventory & keeping things packed away

[12:50] Rex Cronon: i have around 20k items and i still feel the need of an external file explorer like program to sort my inventory:)

[12:51] Duckie Dickins: I use second inventory to figure out what some of the textures I do have in my inventory are.

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: is there a property for prims that is similar to "rezzer_ID" which is a key of teh person or object that rezzed it?

[12:51] Simon Linden: sorry afk a bit ... some office business

[12:51] Stickman Ingmann: Speaking of browsing. Being able to see textures instead of file names would be handy. I suppose what's what you meant by "texture organizer," Duckie?

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: I knew it, lol

[12:51] Jenna Felton: what was the question Lucy?

[12:51] Jenna Felton: :)

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: read up

[12:52] Duckie Dickins: That's my texture organizer

[12:53] Stickman Ingmann: Fancy.

[12:53] Simon Linden: yes Stickman .. I can imagine that would be good, but you do have to download at least part of each texture to get a visual preview

[12:54] Jenna Felton: ah, found the question but except that would be owner key i dont know the answer :)

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: not owner key

[12:54] Stickman Ingmann: I am ok with this. But I know LL cares about bandwidth usage.

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: rezzer key

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: I'd like to be able to get an object's rezzer key

[12:54] Qie Niangao: where owner changes because... sold original? deeded to group?

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire: which would be the owner'd key if rezzed or attached to world, or an object key if rezzed by obj

[12:55] Jenna Felton: that would be than the "last owner"

[12:55] Qie Niangao: oh, *object* rezzer.

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: which is why I ask if there is a prim proerty with tht value already

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: bah typing

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: not last owner, lol

[12:55] Jenna Felton: but an extra key for the rezed object would be cool

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: although I'd really like to have that info for multipel reasons

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire: esp with deeded objects and obfuscated objects

[12:56] Rex Cronon: u would like to track down bomb rezzers:)

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: no

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: thats impossible, Reex

[12:56] Duckie Dickins: I wondered that too..why isn't last owner uuid available via LSL

[12:56] Jenna Felton: there is a way to give an object this info by the rezzing script. and probably store it in the prim description via script that receives the info

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: at least the ones that are being used to kill all the RC sandboxes

[12:56] Jenna Felton: an automatical way would be nice

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: it would be nice for prims to be able to access that info without any prior communication setup

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: but also for targeting problem rezzers, heh

[12:57] Jenna Felton: ah, you want also to scan this info by external script like llGetObjectDetails

[12:57] Jenna Felton: could be handy

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire: that or its own standalone, llGetObjectRezzerID()

[12:58] Martinrj Fayray: I lost connection. Was there an answer to Lucia's question yet?

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: I was gonna file a feature request anyway, just wanted to know if it was already a prim propety or not

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: otherwise I'll have to file it as a request for teh properrty as well not just teh access

[12:59] Stickman Ingmann: Simon seems to still be putting out real world fires.

[12:59] Jenna Felton: there was no direct anser but we discuss what could be it :)

[13:00] Simon Linden: yeah, sorry, we're suddently getting some network done in the office here ... the tech just showed up and we're following cables all over

[13:00] Stickman Ingmann: Well, that's time.

[13:00] Duckie Dickins: cables?

[13:00] Mona Eberhardt: Simon, I have a question...

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: Simon, read back when you have the time, heh

[13:00] Mona Eberhardt: Is there an LSL function that will allow a script to activate and deactivate a script that's in another prim?

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: Jenna filed a request on that Monan

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: -n

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt: Ah.

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire: along with a bunch of suggestions that would be nice

[13:01] Jenna Felton: yes, that was one of reuested functions :)

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt: We already have llResetOtherScript...

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt: So why not have that one too?

[13:02] Jenna Felton:

[13:02] Simon Linden: Right, I dont' think that function exists

[13:02] Qie Niangao: and we don't like llRemoteLoadScriptPin to have that effect?

[13:02] Jenna Felton: thhis would be very nice when we hat such access

[13:02] Rex Cronon: imagine if that function doesn't work right. it could let others turn on/off scripts in objects that don't belong to them:)

[13:02] Inara Pey: Wheee... Rl... got to run again, folks

[13:02] Inara Pey: Ciao!

[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc inara

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire: Rex, its only for intra object script access

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire: aside from teh script pin

[13:03] Stickman Ingmann: Later! Thanks for the office hours!

[13:03] Duckie Dickins: how about llRemoteLoadScriptPin your object just sits there waiting for a script and then you send it one to run? when it's done you can send it another script that just sits and waits for another script again to run? that's sorta like enabling and disabling a script remotely

[13:03] Jenna Felton: llRemoteScriptPin requires you to set the pin to prims first before you can give scripts and this is not handy

[13:03] Jenna Felton: and you can not give scripts in prims not belonging to you

[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc stickman

[13:04] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt: What I have in mind as a use case scenario is the following...

[13:04] Duckie Dickins: well you shouldn't ever be allowed to disable scripts you don't own

[13:04] Simon Linden: I need to go as well ... thanks everyone for coming today

[13:04] Qie Niangao: not sure this should *ever* be able to affect scripts not belonging to the same owner.

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire: you can give them if you have mod rights on teh target avatar's prims

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt: OK Simon.

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt: Thanks for your time.

[13:04] Rex Cronon: tc simon

[13:04] Qie Niangao: thanks Simon

[13:04] Simon Linden: Sorry for the interruption ... I'll read back when I do the transcript

[13:04] Jenna Felton: thank you Simon, have a nice day and a good week

[13:04] Duckie Dickins: otherwise griefers would run around disabling entire regions.

[13:04] Simon Linden: Thanks for the ideas and chat about SL


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