Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2014.09.23

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List of Speakers

Duckie Dickins Elle Ellsmere Emily Aries
Jenna Felton Kitto Flora LegoMan Karu
Lexbot Sinister Lucia Nightfire Mona Eberhardt
Nalates Urriah Oz Linden Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon Simon Linden Tankmaster Finesmith
Yuzuru Jewell


[12:02] Simon Linden: Let's see ... this week's server updates aren't very exciting. The main channel did not get an update today, as we need to update the RC version tomorrow morning for a bug fix

[12:02] Simon Linden: The details are here:

[12:02] LegoMan Karu: Cool

[12:02] Simon Linden: I don't have any other news

[12:03] Rex Cronon: hello everybody

[12:03] Jenna Felton: hi Rex

[12:03] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Rex.

[12:03] Simon Linden: As people were discussing before we got started, there's an odd viewer bug somehow related to having the latest version of iCloud installed

[12:04] Rex Cronon: hi yuzuru

[12:04] Simon Linden: Thats in ... there's a lot to read there but it sure is a strange one

[12:04] LegoMan Karu: That does not sound good

[12:04] Mona Eberhardt: An iCloud-related bug? Does it automatically upload your nude selfies to Reddit without even asking for permission?

[12:05] Oscitancy: Its a feature not a bug.

[12:05] rcdsQueChatLog: State changed.{click me to get the url}

[12:05] Simon Linden: I think the nude selfie uploads are failing, actually

[12:05] Nalates Urriah: You haven't actually tried it?

[12:05] Simon Linden: but it seems there's a conflict somewhere in the disk or network communication now

[12:05] Rex Cronon: lol. u r jocking simon. right?

[12:06] Simon Linden: I am joking, yes, but it seems to kill mesh uploads, snapshots and textures

[12:06] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Nicky (FS dev) was looking at it. She thinks its some dll injection poisoning issue

[12:06] Mona Eberhardt: This bug sounds really weird.

[12:06] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): It absolutely does nasty things to KDU though

[12:06] Simon Linden: it's a pretty strange breakage, yeah. We were all speculating about it at an earlier meeting

[12:07] Mona Eberhardt: Apple: The new Microsoft.

[12:07] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Im gonna install iFail and see if I can repro it. Im sure Ill be able to.

[12:07] Mona Eberhardt: Hi Oz.

[12:08] Simon Linden: So obviously if you're a Mac user you'll want to keep an eye on that one

[12:08] Oz Linden: hi all

[12:08] Rex Cronon: hi oz

[12:08] LegoMan Karu: Hello oz

[12:08] Gibson (gibson.firehawk): greetings Oz

[12:08] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Oz.

[12:08] Simon Linden: The table's now open for questions or topics

[12:08] Rex Cronon: maybe the icloud thing uses one or more of the ports the the viewr uses?

[12:08] Duckie Dickins: I wanted to bring up BUG-1786

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire: is the fix for tomorrow as proposed in the assoc jira?

[12:09] Kitto Flora: Simon, what did you learn from the logs of the 2-minute delayed border crossing problem?

[12:09] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Its windows Simon, not Mac. Mac didn't get that iCloud update yet

[12:09] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Everyone affected so far has been Windows

[12:10] Gibson (gibson.firehawk): it "might" not break on Mac...things are implemented very differently for iCloud in each OS

[12:10] Simon Linden: Not much, Kitto. I didn't have time to look deep into it.

[12:10] Simon Linden: Also, fwiw, it's much better if you use the LL viewer for logs ... I need to match messages to the actual source code

[12:11] Simon Linden: ah, thank you Whirly about Mac vs Windows

[12:11] Kitto Flora: I just use a viewer that I can understand...

[12:12] Duckie Dickins: BUG-1786 was posted in early 2013 and Maestro responded to it but no progress seems to have been done. This llSetLinkAlpha glitch seemes to be interest list related and affects things likes weapons which use llSetLinkAlpha for draw/sheathing action where a large linkset needs to be toggles back and forth resulting in some of the prims not going transparent when they should be.

[12:12] Kitto Flora: Simon, can I reset the regions so that riders dont get crashed - do you have all the data you need from the problem?

[12:13] Simon Linden: sure Kitto, go ahead

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: I noticed the wiki was changed for so I'm hoping the fix matches that list output (even though the wiki still say 5 components instead of 6) heh

[12:13] Kitto Flora: OK, TY

[12:13] Mona Eberhardt: Duckie, there's a similar bug to BUG-1786, but I can't remember the JIRA number. It's to do with llSetLinkColor

[12:14] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): The effects of BUG-1786 are much less if you raise the maximum bandwidth setting. Note if you have a slower connection, raising that setting can cause you problems (packetloss)

[12:14] Simon Linden: yes, it's a known update issue and is on our backlog of work

[12:14] Duckie Dickins: on the demo on the ground the red button will toggle transparency in a large linkset of prims. It seems firestorm's fail rate of some of the prims not toggling is much lower than the official viewer.

[12:15] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Duckie, check you have same max BW setting in each viewer

[12:15] Lexbot Sinister: it's not only about a slow connection, but seems to be affected by ping, too. I have a great connection, but about 200 ping... and i get the bug _every_ time

[12:15] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Ill bet you're on a higher setting on FS, hence less fail

[12:15] Duckie Dickins: I use the same max bandwidth of 1500 on both viewers

[12:15] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Hmmmm

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire: on cable, dsl , wifi?

[12:16] Mona Eberhardt: Generally, though, people are usually advised to keep their bandwidth setting low.

[12:16] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Are you on an older FS version without interesting code? Its worse since interesting heh.

[12:16] Duckie Dickins: I'm on 45 megabit fiber, no wifi connection

[12:17] Duckie Dickins: I'm using the latest version of firestorm..

[12:17] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Theres the added problem on interesting viewers that if the state changes while you're not looking at the objects, it may never change until you right click on the object & sometimes that doesn't even work.

[12:18] Lexbot Sinister: i'm on the newest firestorm. i'm on wifi. I get more fails than Duckie, but both get fails. Out of this linkset, on average 3 are always updating wrong (random) , in both ways- being transparent when they should not be, etc

[12:18] Mona Eberhardt: I'm on the same as Duckie, on a 24Mbps copper cable ADSL line, which syncs at 10Mbps. And my bandwidth is set to 500.

[12:18] Simon Linden: There is an inherent design issue with updates ... that may be part of this problem. I believe they are udp packets and not 100% reliable. This problem occurs when there are lots of updates at the same time, and some get lost or dropped

[12:18] Lexbot Sinister: Actually, funny thing about "clicking" it to update

[12:18] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Changing gr5oup tag will fix it too :P That old voodoo lol

[12:19] Lexbot Sinister: not only does it solve nothing, but if i change any other parameter of the bugged prim, like change color etc, the prim will now appear bugged for everyone.

[12:19] Qie Niangao: Is there prospect of updates moving to TCP eventually?

[12:19] Kitto Flora: Qui - can you edit client code?

[12:19] Simon Linden: I don't see that anytime soon

[12:19] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Yeah seen that too Lex.

[12:19] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): That ones new since interesting I think

[12:20] Qie Niangao: Kitto: not in a way that preserves its ability to compile :p

[12:20] Lexbot Sinister: this is a rather frustrating bug, because EVERY single weapon in entire SL that has a slinging function, appears bugged for me

[12:20] Lexbot Sinister: 8and everything else that uses transparencies for changing an object)

[12:21] Lexbot Sinister: which means pretty much every mesh body, too

[12:21] Jenna Felton: A question. is there a chance a viewer gets a button. So when i notice i dont see something in the scene although i should. I simply click it and get all updates again regardless if the sim sent them already or not?

[12:21] Duckie Dickins: I was able to fix the issue with a work around by first running llSetLinkAlpha on the linkset and then using llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast to set each block with a transparent hovertext to force an update to the prim.

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire: @Jenna I'd like something liek that for settext after using metadata, heh

[12:22] Lexbot Sinister: ..without the transparent hovertext, it didn't force the update.

[12:22] Simon Linden: That's an interesting idea, Jenna ... I've wanted the same things for AVs, so I could force a refresh on someone that's stuck not drawing right

[12:22] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Jenna, changing active group tag pretty much does that

[12:22] Duckie Dickins: in the send demo, any left over prims that haven't toggle get toggled on the 2nd pass of forced updating

[12:23] Simon Linden: there's a related question about getting rid of any cached textures for those objects

[12:23] Simon Linden: or meshes

[12:23] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): But don't achange active tag if not everything on the region has loaded yet (soon after you enter) because that actually breaks objects appearing since interesting

[12:23] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): They never appear. You have to relog to fix it

[12:23] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Its a real pain heh

[12:23] Lexbot Sinister: OH!

[12:24] Lexbot Sinister: so if you go to a place that gives you a group invite, wait til everything rezzes before accepting the invite?

[12:24] Lexbot Sinister: since it automatcally changes group tag?

[12:24] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): I would LOVE to know what changing group tag actually does. It fixes so much, yet since interesting it can really break object rendering too

[12:24] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Yes Lex!

[12:24] Jenna Felton: talking about group tag. I am using firestorm with RLV and i have a hud that automatically changes my title in respect of what sim i am entering. so i am having the correct group at places i have to rez next time... And with that feature i seemed ave a massive bug of scene not load after teleport. After i deactivated group title changing, the sim seems to have load after teeport correctly. So i wanted ask if that is just my observation or can be a solution :)

[12:24] Gibson (gibson.firehawk): any progress on fixing that? its been around for months now

[12:24] Simon Linden: I think it's just forcing a full update, Whirly

[12:25] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Like the hair fair lol. Land, take group invite. Oh.... why is the region empty.... lol

[12:25] Lexbot Sinister: Oh poor shop owners.. " I went to your store, it was a laghole, inothing rezzed, leaving your group now!!"

[12:25] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Yeah never ever change group tag as soon as you land somewhere now

[12:26] Qie Niangao: wow. how prescient of us not to offer group invites. :p

[12:26] Jenna Felton: so when you change the group title *when you enter a sim and before you complete load the sim scene* your scene will fail to load after that?

[12:26] Mona Eberhardt: Today, on another machine (one with a pathetic Celeron CPU and an ancient Intel graphics chipset), nothing rezzed in the area where I logged in. I had to zoom way out and then press "Esc" for things to rez.

[12:26] Lexbot Sinister: (the prims floating by my hand is the failed gun holstering)

[12:26] Mona Eberhardt: This something I had never encountered before.

[12:26] Mona Eberhardt: This is*

[12:27] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Gibson JIRA'd it

[12:27] Gibson (gibson.firehawk): months ago ....

[12:27] Duckie Dickins: most of my guns will appear holstered properly to me but Lex will see prims floating around my hand that didn't turn transparent for her.

[12:28] Lexbot Sinister: it's not much of a "shared expirience"

[12:28] Mona Eberhardt: Whirly, which JIRA is the bug where llSetLinkColor fails for parts of a linkset and you have to tp out and back in or detach the object and re-wear it? It looks like it's similar to BUG-1786.

[12:30] Jenna Felton: anyway thank you for confirmng about not change grou titles too early :)

[12:30] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Hmmm ?

[12:30] Mona Eberhardt: Let me see.

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: I think the one she meant had red colored prims

[12:31] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Oh!

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire: idkw but I thought martin filed it too, heh

[12:31] Mona Eberhardt: Two differences, Whirly.

[12:31] Mona Eberhardt: 1. It also affects objects with fewer pieces; for instance, this mesh body I'm wearing, where sometimes certain faces will remain unchanged in colour.

[12:32] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): this one?

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: ya

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt: 2. Changes don't have to be rapid; it seems it has to do with *multiple* changes at the same time.

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt goes to have a look.

[12:32] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): I think its the same bug. Failing updates

[12:33] Mona Eberhardt: Yes, that's the one.

[12:34] Duckie Dickins: I thought the same thing about the UDP packets not all arriving since when I would toggle the link set I would see a spike in UDP packets

[12:35] Duckie Dickins: I believe both demos are set as full perm so you should be able to grab a copy for yourself to mess with

[12:35] Emily Aries: So are some of the boxes supposed to be missing? when it updates?

[12:35] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Need to set "anyone can copy"

[12:36] Lexbot Sinister: Yes,some of the boxes go missing when they are supposed to appear, and some of the boxes will be left when all are supposed to dissapear.

[12:37] Emily Aries: I can see all of the little boxes there are non missing. Is your router throttling udp or something?

[12:37] Duckie Dickins: I see both demos set to anyone can copy

[12:37] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Hmm I can't take a copy.

[12:38] Lexbot Sinister: are you seeing the permissions as something else, Whirly?

[12:38] Emily Aries: Huh if I click it several times quickly then some are missing.

[12:38] Lexbot Sinister: Yup Emily. Thats how the bug works. for some quickly, for others... every time

[12:39] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Weird. You guys can take a copy?

[12:39] Tankmaster Finesmith: probably just a missing udp packet

[12:39] Yuzuru Jewell: no, I can't.

[12:39] Mona Eberhardt: No, I can't. At least for the one that's directly in front of me, no.

[12:40] Lexbot Sinister: i see them both as full perms and i took copies O.o

[12:40] Tankmaster Finesmith: what copybot viewer are you usin :P

[12:40] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Hmmmm

[12:40] Lexbot Sinister: Firestorm XD

[12:40] Simon Linden: I remember digging into this and it seemed like lost packets. It's really hard to predict when they'll get lost, but it seems it's not slowing down updates quite right when there's a sudden flood

[12:40] Tankmaster Finesmith: i cant take a copy either

[12:41] Qie Niangao: I can move them though.

[12:41] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Can someone on official viewer take a copy?

[12:41] Duckie Dickins: I've toggled both that allows anyone to copy and move

[12:41] Tankmaster Finesmith: the packet witht he kill update really should be done via http

[12:41] Tankmaster Finesmith: imo

[12:42] Qie Niangao: the scripts inside are also set so Anyone can Copy?? (although somehow Lex got a copy, so perms must be okay)

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: more viewer permission bugs

[12:42] Yuzuru Jewell: I use Officeal Viewer, and I can't take copy.

[12:42] Kitto Flora: ANYONE know if the Statistics 'Packet Loss' indicator in Firestorm actually works?

[12:42] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Ok phew

[12:42] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Lex got em though lol

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire: mod rights?

[12:42] Emily Aries: Can't things like this be moved to TCP. I was under the impression UDP was only supposed to be used for things that are outdated quickly like position, time, keypresses etc. Updating the world should be more reliable surely :-/

[12:42] Duckie Dickins: ok the scripts inside are set too

[12:42] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Okay whatever you just changed fixed it

[12:43] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): ahhh!

[12:43] Simon Linden: can you just make it for sale for L$0 ? There may be some component that's not set for the permissions

[12:43] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Okay, no bug. Carry on! :D

[12:43] Lexbot Sinister: Duckie just rusty ;)

[12:43] Simon Linden: "Can't reproduce" :P

[12:43] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Oh I can't take the other one though

[12:43] Tankmaster Finesmith: try a different fertility clinic

[12:44] Simon Linden: so everyone should hit ctrl-alt-shift-u and watch all the updates these things make

[12:44] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): yuk lol

[12:44] Lexbot Sinister: thats how they all work though.

[12:45] Simon Linden: that, btw, is a good thing to do if you're trying to optimize a region or some objects. You'd be amazed sometimes how something unexpected is using your bandwidth

[12:46] Yuzuru Jewell: Ah I can take copy one. but another I can't.

[12:46] Duckie Dickins: i just set them for sale

[12:46] Lexbot Sinister: usually toggling transparency on and off is something done sparsely, i mean, with a gun? You don't hammer the holster button. but if it keeps updating wrong, you just might, until it looks "right2... but then it only looks right to you

[12:46] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Duckie. I can buy it.

[12:48] Lexbot Sinister: Apparently the scripts show fullperms to Duckie, but for me they don't

[12:49] Elle Ellsmere: hi

[12:49] Oscitancy: I didn't think pressing ctrl+alt+shift+U was so hard. All I got was a U with an umlau thing above it :P.

[12:49] Jenna Felton: hi Elle

[12:50] Lexbot Sinister: So Simon, is there anything going to be done about this, or just shrug?

[12:50] Object: Hello, Avatar!

[12:51] Kitto Flora: I have a lareg setam locomotive that has a lot of mesh that I trying to fade in and out (changing transparency) - it often only partly rezzes. mesh chunks are simply 'not there'

[12:51] Kitto Flora: Mesg seems flaky. mexh + changeing transparency seems flaky ^ 2

[12:51] Simon Linden: I'll mention it to our group with the product people and maybe they'll push it up higher in priority, but I'm not optimistic that it's going to move ahead of many other problems

[12:52] Kitto Flora: Mesg/Mesh

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire: what is coming down the pipe, heh

[12:52] Duckie Dickins: I'd rather see this bug fixed before new features to be quite honest.

[12:53] Lexbot Sinister: Agreed. Unless LL wants us to use dirty workarounds instead.

[12:53] Kitto Flora: I'd rather see any of the hudreds of old bugs fixed before new stuff

[12:53] Kitto Flora whispers: But - LL puts glssy new before problems :(

[12:54] Simon Linden: I spend most of my time fixing stuff, not new features

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire remebers my client side animated alpha feature request that got shot down, heh

[12:54] Lexbot Sinister: Btw, whole mesh body market is a dirty workaround- thats one new shiny, new avatar mesh, that i could place in front of the bugs XD

[12:54] Simon Linden: and fwiw, I hope we'll finally see the next version of group chat out soon. I think that's going to be un-stuck soon

[12:54] Duckie Dickins: one thing I do like is the CDN stuff..the map does load wicked fast now.

[12:55] Kitto Flora: Simon - the problem is - what gets fixed is the bugs introduced with the new glossy features. the old real-hard problems no one has the guts to deal with,

[12:55] Tankmaster Finesmith: eventually all textures and mesh will use CDN

[12:55] Rex Cronon: btw. something weird happend to me at swt. i think something hit me and after that suddenly hud attachments were no longer showing parts that were updating. i had to atach/detach to make it work

[12:56] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Has anyone reported any problems on the CDN regions yet? I havnt seen any problems

[12:56] Tankmaster Finesmith: yeah, i got one, theres not enough regions using it :P

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire: ^

[12:56] Simon Linden: This is one, btw

[12:56] Tankmaster Finesmith: id like to see bare rose on it

[12:56] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Oh?

[12:56] Emily Aries: Is there a way to request a region be changed to shiny new CDN?

[12:57] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Can you say what Simon?

[12:57] Tankmaster Finesmith: its kinda my go to place for texgture loading testing

[12:57] Simon Linden: I don't understand your question, Whirly

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire: there isn't one for mainland regions sadly, heh

[12:57] Oz Linden: send email to

[12:57] Duckie Dickins: I think private regions could be set to it but they only had a limited number of slots

[12:57] Tankmaster Finesmith: yes, emily, what Oz said

[12:57] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): I thought you were answering that the is one bug reported on CDN regions.

[12:57] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): *there

[12:58] Tankmaster Finesmith: no, he said that this region was one with CDN

[12:58] Simon Linden: I meant this was a CDN region ... it's on the Second Life RC Snack channel

[12:58] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): ahhh!

[12:58] Oz Linden: You're soaking in it!

[12:58] Emily Aries: Can we request mainland regions be changed to CDN? I'm practically the only person in my region so not like anyone around to complain if it breaks.

[12:59] Oz Linden: You can ask... neither of us make the call about that, so we can't predict what will happen

[12:59] Emily Aries: Ok, thank you :)

[12:59] Duckie Dickins: mainland region owners usually get the shaft with those tests...even if you are the only parcel owner. lol

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire: they'll tell you the estate owner needs to request it

[12:59] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Id love to see what Bre Rose performs like on VDN heh

[12:59] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): *Bare

[12:59] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): C

[12:59] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Gah

[13:00] Qie Niangao: that would be a great test

[13:00] Nalates Urriah: Geez, Whirly you type like I do....

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire: that or any major hair vendor

[13:00] Simon Linden: I don't know exact plans but since there hasn't been big problems, hopefully this will move along into the RC releases soon

[13:00] LegoMan Karu: cool

[13:00] Tankmaster Finesmith: this isnt jira, so she doesnt have use of her 5,000 pre made scripts :P

[13:00] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Hmm can that region be cloned over to Aditi? Have 1 copy of it on non-CDN and one on CDN?

[13:00] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): That would be an interesting test

[13:01] Tankmaster Finesmith: looks like i did loose my wall of testures

[13:01] Tankmaster Finesmith: textures*

[13:01] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Make it again Tank :P

[13:01] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): It should only take a week :P

[13:01] Tankmaster Finesmith: it took me hours last time :P

[13:01] Tankmaster Finesmith: but i still may

[13:01] Tankmaster Finesmith: the constant crashing didnt help, but new we have a 64bit client....

[13:01] Simon Linden: I need to get going .. thanks everyone for coming and the good chat

[13:02] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon

[13:02] Lexbot Sinister: Thanks for having us!

[13:02] Tankmaster Finesmith: have a good week, simon and Oz

[13:02] LegoMan Karu: ok Thanks Simon

[13:02] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Simon.

[13:02] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle): Ty Lindens

[13:02] Nalates Urriah: Bye all - Thx too

[13:02] Simon Linden: I will pass along the interest in that update bug

[13:02] Mona Eberhardt: Thanks Lindens!

[13:02] Rex Cronon: tc simon

[13:02] Qie Niangao: and thanks Oz

[13:02] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Oz.

[13:02] Duckie Dickins: thanks!

[13:02] Rex Cronon: tc nal

[13:02] Oscitancy: Thank you lindens.

[13:02] LegoMan Karu: Thanks Oz


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