User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 10 11

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[8:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh, I don't want to mess up the collision.
[8:00]	Seifert Surface:	only through name, i dont know what it does
[8:00]	Mercia McMahon gave you Flight Feather 1.1.
[8:00]	Dnate Mars:	Hello Andrew
[8:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I don't want to teleport into a wall, just through it
[8:00]	Andrew Linden:	Hello
[8:00]	Burnt Page:	back before they had a terminal velocity with falling you could fall through buildings
[8:00]	Incredible Tomorrow:	hi
[8:00]	Seifert Surface:	mm
[8:01]	Seifert Surface:	neat effect
[8:01]	Burnt Page:	fly up to 768 adn stop flying
[8:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	A 200 limit to apply impulse doesn't let me do that consistently. I can still do it however
[8:01]	Incredible Tomorrow:	hey , i notice ou guys are dome pretty serious scripters
[8:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Only around half the time
[8:01]	Incredible Tomorrow:	sorry to interrupt
[8:01]	Seifert Surface:	does it send you a reliable distance?
[8:01]	Dnate Mars:	I pretent I know what I am doing ;)
[8:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	OmniPhaze, or llApplyImpulse?
[8:02]	Seifert Surface:	omniphase
[8:02]	Andrew Linden:	hehe, Ryozu are you demonstrating the avatar tunnelling through objects?
[8:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I use a combination of effects with the OmniPhaze
[8:02]	Seifert Surface:	oh ok
[8:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yes Andrew, that's the main purpose of the OmniPhaze =)
[8:02]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder when that will break... which version of Havok?
[8:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I use llApplyImpulse for an extra burst of speed to tunnel through the object, and llMoveToTarget to stabilize the final position
[8:02]	Dnate Mars:	It seems to be Havok 4
[8:02]	Andrew Linden:	starting with Havok3 they provide continuous collision detection
[8:02]	Seifert Surface:	theres one with continuous physics
[8:02]	Kooky Jetaime looks at Andrew suddenly feeling like he's in a bond film....
[8:02]	Seifert Surface:	right
[8:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh, I can still go through an object
[8:03]	Andrew Linden:	but we aren't using it yet.
[8:03]	Andrew Linden:	that is, continuous collision detection (sweeping objects through their paths instead of making jumps each step) is an option
[8:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I tell you what', I'd compromise with having llSetStatus(STATUS_PHANTOM, TRUE) work on avatars =P
[8:03]	Andrew Linden:	that can be enabled/disabled at compile time
[8:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	heh
[8:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Even then, I think the limits on force are arbitrarily low right now
[8:04]	Andrew Linden:	setting the avatar phantom... that would be cool in some cases, not others
[8:04]	Dnate Mars:	Just a question, why aren't these meeting held on the beta grid?
[8:05]	Andrew Linden:	it would make certain game content impossible...
[8:05]	Andrew Linden:	such as a room that you couldn't enter until you actually found the key
[8:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew: Unfortunatly, that's a lost cause already.
[8:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The only way to unbreak it is to implement some kind of script restrictions.
[8:05]	Burnt Page:	why not make phantom av's a land flag?
[8:06]	Andrew Linden:	yes, Ryozu, but mostly because of a variety of bugs and mis-features
[8:06]	Burnt Page:	like llPushObject
[8:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	What you see as bugs and misfeatures, I see as an open ended platform
[8:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	At least in that reguard
[8:06]	Andrew Linden:	that is what a mis-feature is, I believe, a bug that others consider a feature
[8:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[8:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	love those mis-features
[8:07]	Andrew Linden:	Why aren't we holding these office hours in the Havok4 preview?
[8:07]	Andrew Linden:	Because these are my official office hours.
[8:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Here's one reason, now that I think of it. Not everyone can log into Beta
[8:07]	Andrew Linden:	I may even continue to hold them after Havok4 is done.
[8:07]	Andrew Linden:	Right, and ultimately these hours are not just about Havok4
[8:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	if you do, try and push them to 8:30.... Zero's is 7:30-8:30 on Thursdays
[8:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Just the hot topic at the moment, eh?
[8:08]	Andrew Linden:	but... I've put off holding them until now because I was too busy working on Havok4
[8:08]	Andrew Linden:	and I didn't want to talk about it until we actually had it in preview
[8:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[8:09]	Andrew Linden:	at the moment I'm not even sure I should continue to hold office hours. They may not work for all LL devs.
[8:09]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Depends on what you're doing I suppose
[8:09]	Seifert Surface:	its certainly good for pr
[8:09]	Andrew Linden:	I think Zero does a good job in his hours
[8:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	get your hours on the main OH Wiki page
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	but I'm not positive that mine will be as useful. We'll see.
[8:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	you'll get more of a turnout
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I need to finish posting my hours in the wiki.
[8:10]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	No Sidewinder today?
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	Let's talk more about phantom avatars...
[8:11]	Andrew Linden:	btw, SL "phantom" actually is a collision group that I call "collides with terrain only"
[8:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	well, the page their on now don't seem to be useful... others are listed by who's office, these are listed by topic which goes against the grain
[8:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[8:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	uhm
[8:11]	Dnate Mars:	Has anyone else noticed that if you make a chain of prims in Beta, they tend to blow up instead of acting like a chain?
[8:11]	Seifert Surface:	this is a philosophical difference it seems to me
[8:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh that does
[8:11]	Andrew Linden:	should phantom avatars be allowed by default?
[8:11]	Andrew Linden:	should it be a per-parcel setting?
[8:11]	WarKirby Magojiro:	actually, prim chains work fine, aside from one bug
[8:11]	Andrew Linden:	a per estate setting?
[8:12]	Andrew Linden:	both... with estate overriding parcel settings?
[8:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'd implement it this way.
[8:12]	Object: Hello, Avatar!
[8:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Settable only by script, resets on teleport
[8:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	And that's it
[8:12]	Seifert Surface:	?
[8:12]	Dnate Mars:	what is this one bug?
[8:12]	WarKirby Magojiro is tring to sit down -_-
[8:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto chuckles
[8:13]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Grab some ground Kirby =)
[8:13]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Dbate, let me get the issue number
[8:13]	Seifert Surface:	i think its clear that there are some places you wouldnt want people able to teleport through walls
[8:13]	Andrew Linden:	That seems fairly reasonable Ryozu, for phatom avatar settings.
[8:13]	Andrew Linden:	Right Seifert, that was my main worry.
[8:13]	WarKirby Magojiro:	dseifert
[8:13]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It's the simplest of answers. I understand the arguments against it, however
[8:14]	WarKirby Magojiro:	whether you want it or not, is pretty irrelevant
[8:14]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	None of them hold water in the big picture.
[8:14]	WarKirby Magojiro:	it can be done in many ways
[8:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ryozu - I hate script only settings
[8:14]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The only way to actually deal with scripted abilities breaking things is to devise a way to restrict scripts by area
[8:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	if you want to restrict it to the upper echelon of rezidents, attach it to my jira on an advanced mode.
[8:14]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	"No Script" parcels are not effective
[8:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	VWR-2438
[8:15]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I think I take offense at that....
[8:15]	Andrew Linden:	I also don't agree with script only settings. Many features that are settable only by script now should be settable via the user interface.
[8:15]	Seifert Surface:	yes
[8:15]	Andrew Linden:	such as "floating text"
[8:15]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[8:15]	Seifert Surface:	or sittargets etc
[8:15]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I agree for the most part there
[8:15]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I'll agree there
[8:15]	Andrew Linden:	yes, sit targets too
[8:15]	Kooky Jetaime:	Part of my advanced mode includes the addition of more building tools, including text, particles, sit targets, attach points, etc etc
[8:15]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	My idea is probably not THE ideal implementation
[8:16]	Andrew Linden:	what do you mean "no script" parcels are not effective Ryozu?
[8:16]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	They are effective aside from a few quirks, but mostly, useless to me
[8:16]	Kooky Jetaime:	but I'll quit pluggin my own jira... feel free to check it if you like
[8:16]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Andrew
[8:16]	WarKirby Magojiro:	wear that
[8:16]	WarKirby Magojiro gave you no script test.
[8:16]	WarKirby Magojiro:	then enter a no script parcel
[8:16]	WarKirby Magojiro:	and click it
[8:16]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	A no script parcel restricts all scripts, except those that take controls (Vehicle hack)
[8:16]	Andrew Linden:	Then what happens WarKirby?
[8:16]	WarKirby Magojiro:	the no script setting is very ineffective
[8:16]	WarKirby Magojiro:	due to the taking controls hack
[8:17]	WarKirby Magojiro:	it shouts
[8:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh is that the case?
[8:17]	Andrew Linden:	ah yes
[8:17]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	But there's cases where you WANT scripts to run
[8:17]	WarKirby Magojiro:	That hack is now being exploited by a LOT of objects
[8:17]	Andrew Linden:	the vehicle hack for no script parcels needs work
[8:17]	Kooky Jetaime makes note to add some permissions
[8:17]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Let me use The Electric Sheep Company as an example
[8:17]	WarKirby Magojiro:	which have no business working in such places
[8:17]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	They're putting together a game for an upcoming movie
[8:17]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You get a HUD, and a gun
[8:17]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Obviously, being owned by the avatar means No Script can't be used
[8:18]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	But disableing no script means they can also use other scripts, such as the OmniPhaze
[8:18]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	So there's no middle ground
[8:18]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Allow game breaking scripts, or disable game scripts
[8:18]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, we need finer grained control over what scripts, and maybe what calls are allowed on parcels.
[8:18]	WarKirby Magojiro:	like rezzing
[8:18]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Exactly!
[8:18]	WarKirby Magojiro:	perhaps disabling some functions
[8:19]	Seifert Surface:	or you get only scripts owned by the parcel owner working
[8:19]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I have a proposal up on jira somewhere
[8:19]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	"Script signing"
[8:19]	Kooky Jetaime:	or you can run scripts in the group
[8:19]	Kooky Jetaime:	though that does enable them all, n/m
[8:19]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That's not restrictive enough Kooky, if you're set to group, all your scripts work
[8:19]	Andrew Linden:	Does Babbage Linden or Don Linden hold office hours?
[8:19]	Kooky Jetaime:	Not on the wIki
[8:19]	Andrew Linden:	They would be the right people to bounce these ideas off of.
[8:20]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	My proposal is pretty simple.
[8:20]	Andrew Linden:	These are things that we've often kicked around the Lab
[8:20]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	When you make a script, assign it a Script Key or some unique string
[8:20]	Andrew Linden:	but there are currently some things that block work on such features
[8:20]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	In the parcel/estate properties, you could restrict scripts to only scripts with that key
[8:20]	Andrew Linden:	however, I'm not currently up to date on what they are and when those blocks might get done/removed.
[8:21]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	So when someone makes a game, they can have only the scripts meant for the game work in there estate
[8:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	uhm.... the downside is the bytecode gets a new key I believe
[8:21]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I don't mean the scripts themselves key
[8:21]	Andrew Linden:	Some simple rules for script whitelists might be the easiest changes to make.
[8:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	my inventory knowledge gets a little..fuzzy around scripts
[8:21]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I mean something like llSetScriptSignature("MyPassword");
[8:21]	Multi Gadget v1.52.0 by Timeless Prototype
[8:21]	Couples MultiAnimator v2d whispers: * Abranimations Couples Animator Ready...
[8:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	like a remote pin
[8:21]	Andrew Linden:	"created by parcel owner" for example
[8:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yes, like a remote pin
[8:22]	Seifert Surface:	that could work
[8:22]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Arg. Ctashed
[8:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	not a bad idea
[8:22]	Andrew Linden:	but that will quickly be declared not enough
[8:22]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Dnate I found the issue
[8:22]	WarKirby Magojiro:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2603
[8:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You set a "Run Pin" and whitelist that pin
[8:22]	Andrew Linden:	many parcel owners are not the scripters
[8:22]	WarKirby Magojiro:	makes it very hard to build with physical objectds
[8:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Or a set of pins
[8:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	right, and if it can't be set prior to entering noscript land
[8:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh, that reminds me
[8:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	it would never be set
[8:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew, there's a major bug on Beta right now
[8:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Any chance you could fix it and roll out new code ASAP?
[8:23]	WarKirby Magojiro:	A on_no0_script event was suggested in one issue
[8:23]	Andrew Linden:	what is the bug Ryozu?
[8:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	When resizing a prim, the X scale is mirroeed to all axis
[8:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You can only make X,X,X sized prims
[8:23]	Andrew Linden:	oh... that sounds like a cut and paste error
[8:23]	WarKirby Magojiro:	really? yikes
[8:23]	Dnate Mars:	:O
[8:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It's made it increaseingly hard to test
[8:24]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, I could probably try to update this morning after the office hours
[8:24]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Thanks
[8:24]	Andrew Linden:	first I have to find the error
[8:24]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[8:24]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The key part is, the X size
[8:24]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Any time a size commit is made, it just bouncesd back to the X value
[8:24]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu, is it also true for scale changes by script? or just via the UI?
[8:24]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Just UI
[8:24]	WarKirby Magojiro:	that's not good at all
[8:25]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I believe...
[8:25]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Let me check real uick
[8:25]	WarKirby Magojiro:	might be a viewer bug?
[8:25]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	quick
[8:25]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, that is a "blocker". We shouldn't have updated the preview with that.
[8:25]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	No, not a viewer bug, my viewer has not changed
[8:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	Andrew - stupid question related to H4 & Prims.. how are mega prims gonna be handled in H4?
[8:26]	Andrew Linden:	I'll ask Babbage what he thinks about whitelists for scripts on parcels.
[8:26]	WarKirby Magojiro:	there was a note on the blog about that
[8:26]	WarKirby Magojiro:	in comments
[8:26]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Kooky: I think I can answer that: I believe the plan is to limit any prims to 256x256 at most
[8:26]	Seifert Surface:	and fit inside the parcel
[8:26]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Eventually
[8:26]	Monandra Cazalet shouts: HELP
[8:26]	Andrew Linden:	The plan for megaprims is that they'll remain as broken/partially-supported as they are in Havok1, but with very large megaprims scales > 256 clamped.
[8:27]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Andrew. I posted a suggestion in the comments there about a possible way of handling them
[8:27]	WarKirby Magojiro:	did you see it?
[8:27]	Andrew Linden:	however... there is still some anti-megaprim code in the Haovk4 preview. I haven't had a chance to pull it out yet.
[8:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	Personally, one of the things I was looking at was possibly adding a way to create up to 40x40x40 prims normally.. if H4 doesn't have the problem with them that H1 does
[8:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	they do have their uses
[8:27]	Andrew Linden:	WarKirby, I probably saw it. Refresh my memory.
[8:28]	WarKirby Magojiro:	It ws to not allow prims over 10x10x10 to link simulation islands
[8:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	((again, an advanced mode option, similar to 100% transparency, other current "Script only" things))
[8:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew: llSetScale() is failing on Beta
[8:28]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes. Technically that is possible, and was something I wanted to investigate WarKirby.
[8:28]	WarKirby Magojiro:	it would result in the megaprim straddling many SIs, but prevent the collapsing into one scenariuo
[8:28]	WarKirby Magojiro:	is it feasible ?
[8:29]	Andrew Linden:	Havok4 has its own internal lingo...
[8:29]	WarKirby Magojiro:	ground sitting messes up animations strangely <_<
[8:29]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	So it's not just UI
[8:29]	Andrew Linden:	in Havok4 terminology.. Havok4 "phatom" == SL "Volume Detect"
[8:29]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I see
[8:30]	Andrew Linden:	Havok4 "keyframed" == SL "static" (no "physics")
[8:30]	WarKirby Magojiro:	so what does volume detect equal?
[8:30]	Andrew Linden:	Havok4 "static" == SL does not use this category of objects yet
[8:30]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	== No longer falling through the ground
[8:30]	Andrew Linden:	so... Havok4 static objects do not span simulation islands
[8:30]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I see
[8:31]	WarKirby Magojiro:	There's an isue about that open too
[8:31]	Andrew Linden:	they aren't keyframed... all static geometry falls into a different structure used for collision tests
[8:31]	WarKirby Magojiro:	perhaps not allowing megaprims to by physical, unless also phantom ?
[8:31]	Monandra Cazalet shouts: HELP???
[8:31]	Andrew Linden:	the reason we haven't been using Havok "static" objects is that in Havok1 it was Very Expensive to toggle an object from "keyframed" to "static"
[8:32]	Andrew Linden:	in Haovk4 the cost of switching an object from static to keyframed and back again is not very high
[8:32]	WarKirby Magojiro:	what's the difference between keyframed and static, exactly?
[8:32]	Seifert Surface:	simulation islands: if i have a 100m long road that i make out of a megaprim (keyframed), it will collapse islands correct? would the same road made out of 10 normal prims (keyframed) also collapse islands?
[8:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	Everyone buy more lindens! its gettin pricey!
[8:32]	Andrew Linden:	so going forward it might be possible to move some of the typically keyframed stuff to the static pool --> get some performance gains
[8:33]	Andrew Linden:	this would solve the "collapse of the simulation islands" problem of megaprims
[8:33]	Andrew Linden:	but would require us to not allow the megaprims to be set "dynamic"
[8:33]	WarKirby Magojiro:	the name static. Does that imply the objects can't be moved or changed?
[8:33]	Andrew Linden:	This is one of the things I would like to look into after Havok4 is "done"
[8:33]	Andrew Linden:	but not before.
[8:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[8:34]	Andrew Linden:	yes, "static" means that it is impossible for the objects to move
[8:34]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'd like to go back to the topic of scripted force calls being capped, and tunneling
[8:34]	Andrew Linden:	btw, "keyframed" objects can move in the physics engine...
[8:34]	Andrew Linden:	they can move with a constant velocity, or a scripted velocity, and will collide and push other objects
[8:34]	Andrew Linden:	howver, at the moment all of our "keyframed" objects have zero velocities
[8:35]	Andrew Linden:	in a little bit Ryozu, I had one more comment to make
[8:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[8:35]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Ryozu. Is that the issue about high values not working in push and impulse?
[8:35]	Andrew Linden:	regarding keyframed objects...
[8:36]	Andrew Linden:	another feature I want to look into after Havok4 is to provide some script calls that would allow "SL static" obejcts
[8:36]	WarKirby Magojiro nods
[8:36]	Andrew Linden:	(the vast majority of our content)
[8:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	War: That's been "fixed" however I'm not sure I"m happy with it personally
[8:36]	Andrew Linden:	to be movable in keyframed mode... so constant velocities/angular velocities with scripted start/end points
[8:36]	Andrew Linden:	or maybe even real keyframed motions through a series of contro points/velocities
[8:37]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	"Smooth" movement for non_physical objects?
[8:37]	WarKirby Magojiro:	that sounds useful
[8:37]	Seifert Surface:	yes
[8:37]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Many people would rejoice
[8:37]	Andrew Linden:	ok... I just wanted to mention it
[8:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	Andrew - something I was wondering was for size limitations, what about a volume size limit? Instead of say x, y, z must be less than 256m (which is one hell of a big cube) limit the volume (ignoring hollows, and cuts) to a specific volume? 8192 cubic meters would allow a prim to be 256x256x.125 (to make a sim "ground") or a square block whatever the cube root of it is.
[8:37]	Andrew Linden:	now Ryozu, what was it you wanted to talk about?
[8:37]	Seifert Surface:	good for interacting with avatars without worrying about allkinds of ohter physics issues
[8:38]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Am I right in assuming the force limitations on llApplyImpulse et al are intentional?
[8:38]	Andrew Linden:	I'd rather stay with obejct "span" rather than volume. At the moment we have to ask Havok for the object's volume.
[8:38]	Andrew Linden:	We don't yet have our own volume computation utilities.
[8:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	but we don't ask it for the span?
[8:38]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	A quick hack would be Scale magnitude
[8:38]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Have you made a wiki page clearly explaining keyframed and static objects anywhere ?
[8:38]	Seifert Surface:	span seems more sensible
[8:38]	Andrew Linden:	yes Ryozu, we use the scale magnitue in the internal code a lot
[8:39]	Andrew Linden:	the new new linkability rules use "span"... er... span of bounding spheres
[8:39]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Scale magnitude of a full size prim would be 30. Allow any combinatio of that?
[8:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	and if you have the span, I'm talking quick and simple X*Y*Z, ignore cuts, hollows, etc etc. (Cube)
[8:39]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sorry my typing is so poor, bad circulation, fingers are frozen
[8:39]	Seifert Surface:	length + width + height is a strange measurement to be using
[8:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	Cold here too Ryozu, furnace got turned on..
[8:40]	WarKirby Magojiro:	:(
[8:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	Linear Dimension
[8:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	love them
[8:40]	Andrew Linden:	No wiki page on static vs keyframed vs dynamic objects yet WarKirby
[8:40]	WarKirby Magojiro:	it would be a useful resource, if you could find the time
[8:40]	Andrew Linden:	no... scale magnitude in my mind is sqrt(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)
[8:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	or Dimensional Weight if you prefer
[8:40]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	But uh, yeah... Previously, physics calls were failing at high values, now, it seems those values are just capped to whatever value it was that worked before.
[8:41]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu, you're talking about llApplyImpulse() on avatars right?
[8:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yes
[8:41]	WarKirby Magojiro:	what do you mean what worked before?
[8:41]	Andrew Linden:	yes, it is capped at the moment by the avatar controller code
[8:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Mmm
[8:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	War: In relation to what?
[8:42]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I'm not certain I understand what you're describing
[8:42]	Andrew Linden:	that is, when llApplyImpulse() is called on an avatar, we cache the impulse in the avatar controller code and let it apply the impulse later... after it is done doing its controller business
[8:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Before the last code rollout, llApplyImpulse would work with a force of about 200.0
[8:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	But not 500.9
[8:42]	WarKirby Magojiro:	capping at a set value?
[8:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Err, 500.0
[8:42]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu, there were two problems there...
[8:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	This applied only to avatars, yeah
[8:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Now, 500, 5000, 50000 all apply the same force. Which means at least it doesn't fail
[8:43]	Andrew Linden:	one was that the sometimes llApplyImpulse() was being applied to the wrong object and would fail outright
[8:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It still worked though
[8:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Just at low values
[8:43]	WarKirby Magojiro:	hmm
[8:44]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	So I'm not sure I understand that one
[8:44]	Andrew Linden:	the other problem was that the impulse was using the wrong "mechanism"... we have special code for forces on avatars coming from attachments
[8:44]	Kooky Jetaime looks up at Wyn
[8:44]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[8:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	Nice IDIC
[8:44]	Insonio Miles:	Hi!
[8:45]	Andrew Linden:	whether the llApplyImpulse() failed or not depended on whether you attached the scripted object (it would work)
[8:45]	Andrew Linden:	or whether you had changed the script on an existing attachment (in which case it would totally fail)
[8:45]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ah, that one
[8:45]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That's actually a long standing bug
[8:45]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	One I'm glad to see gone ;)
[8:45]	WarKirby Magojiro:	is that going to be fixed?
[8:45]	WarKirby Magojiro:	or it is already?
[8:45]	Andrew Linden:	so there were some... inconsistencies. Really? That was an old bug?
[8:45]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yes War, it's fixed on Beta right now
[8:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	very old bug
[8:46]	WarKirby Magojiro:	yay
[8:46]	Andrew Linden:	Well, it should be fixed now (in Havok4).
[8:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto grins.
[8:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	For that one, I'm highly grateful
[8:46]	WarKirby Magojiro:	^^
[8:46]	Andrew Linden:	At the moment llApplyImpulse() is capped. The cap is somewhat arbitary. What should it be?
[8:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I've spent countless manhours of frustration having to detach, rez, edit, reattach
[8:46]	WarKirby Magojiro:	MAX_INTEGER
[8:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	My only answer to that is... Much higher
[8:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hmm
[8:47]	Andrew Linden:	hang on... lemme look at the code to refrehs my memory...
[8:47]	WarKirby Magojiro:	why is there a need for a cap of anything less ?
[8:47]	Burnt Page:	Andrew, does this mean this fixes the caveat with moving_start and moving_end events?
[8:47]	Burnt Page:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Moving_start
[8:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	they fixed the impulse on script reset on attached whoohoo
[8:47]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Let me phrase it this way Andrew: How high must the force be, before it breaks something?
[8:48]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Burnt: Yes, this should fix it
[8:48]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'll test
[8:48]	Andrew Linden:	Burnt Page, I did not understand your question. Could you rephrase it?
[8:48]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It's the same kind of bug as scripted physics
[8:48]	WarKirby Magojiro:	it seems to be the issue of things failing if compiled while attached
[8:48]	Kooky Jetaime:	Andrew - If you 've fixed that problem, can you go one step farther and fix the problem of llApplyImpulse doesn't work from child prims of an attached object?
[8:48]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu, the current cap is... impulses that push the avatar faster than 80 m/s are capped to effect 80 m/sec
[8:48]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	the moving_start and moving_end events did not fire correctly on scripts compiled inside an attachment
[8:49]	Burnt Page:	The moving_start and moving_end events require special handling when scripting attachments. After adding or editing a script you must: Take off the attachment and then wear the attachment again.
[8:49]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew: Right, I've noticed
[8:49]	Kooky Jetaime:	Wb Wyn
[8:49]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh, yeah, is sitting ont he ground fixed?
[8:49]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	/La
[8:49]	Ryozu Yamamoto chuckles
[8:49]	Burnt Page:	there was mention of attached objects and functions failing
[8:49]	WarKirby Magojiro:	What is the reason for a cap at all ?
[8:49]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You can be pushed around right now
[8:49]	Andrew Linden:	uh... don't know about the moving_start and moving_end events. Someone will have to test and tell me if it is fixed or not.
[8:49]	Burnt Page:	i think they may have been related
[8:49]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Burnt: Yes, that's fixed
[8:49]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'll test it
[8:49]	Burnt Page:	ah good
[8:50]	Seifert Surface:	pushing avatars around at high speeds is not nice for thigns like sim crossings
[8:50]	Seifert Surface:	and it depends if pushing at a speed so that you go through walls is something that we want to be possible or not
[8:50]	Andrew Linden:	sitting on the ground is probably not fixed... I haven't messed with that code in ... maybe two weeks.
[8:50]	WarKirby Magojiro:	perhaps speed could simply be capped when crossing a sim border, then
[8:50]	Andrew Linden:	What is the problem with sitting on the ground?
[8:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	personally I love flying up at 1000+m/s
[8:51]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Seifert. Preventing people moving through walls is utterly impossible in any case
[8:51]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Confirmed Burnt: Fixed
[8:51]	WarKirby Magojiro:	and is a flimsy excuse for breaking other things
[8:51]	WarKirby Magojiro:	sit targets
[8:51]	WarKirby Magojiro:	simple
[8:51]	Andrew Linden:	I'd rather have some max velocity for the avatar... it is mostly to do with how many regions it can cross per second
[8:51]	WarKirby Magojiro:	And if people were unable to move through walls
[8:51]	Andrew Linden:	or ... how many seconds does it take for the fastest avatar to cross the region?
[8:51]	WarKirby Magojiro:	you'd quickly find inescapable griefer cages
[8:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	right War
[8:52]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Thank you War, that's the perfect example of why not allowing tunneling is a BAD idea
[8:52]	Seifert Surface:	well, the "correct" thing to do is have a specific function for short range teleporting
[8:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	I can do it in .25 sec cuz I think 1000m/s is the current limit isn't it?
[8:52]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... griefer cages. One reason for phantom avatar settings
[8:52]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	There are a LOT of cages now that are annoying
[8:52]	Seifert Surface:	and have the other versions not work
[8:52]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Huge cages, sit target cages, deforming cages
[8:52]	WarKirby Magojiro:	it would be nice to just laser all assets that reference that stupid black cage
[8:52]	Andrew Linden:	I'd like to solve the problem of griefer cages, but it is a tough one.
[8:52]	Seifert Surface:	thinking long term, once raytracing is in, it would be easy enough to block sittargets from working
[8:52]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Cage me, I'll show my solution =P
[8:53]	Seifert Surface:	ditto moving so fast that you teleport through
[8:53]	Kooky Jetaime:	Lets not even get into weapons
[8:53]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That is the OmniPhaze
[8:53]	Kooky Jetaime:	I still have the worlds most pain in the assish physics killing weapon
[8:53]	Andrew Linden:	ah, so that is the problem with avatars sitting on the ground
[8:54]	WarKirby Magojiro:	there are numerous problems with it
[8:54]	WarKirby Magojiro:	right now, I appear to have both ankles and my waist horribly broken
[8:54]	Andrew Linden:	yes, I think that problem is solved in Havok4 -- you can't push the avatar around when it is sitting on the ground.
[8:54]	WarKirby Magojiro:	at least on my screen
[8:54]	WarKirby Magojiro:	it has a strange inability to preserve a sititng anim
[8:54]	Andrew Linden:	I wasn't aware that it was a problem in Haovk1.
[8:54]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Care to demonstrate anti-caging techniques War? XD
[8:55]	WarKirby Magojiro:	!
[8:55]	Ryozu Yamamoto chuckles
[8:55]	WarKirby Magojiro:	something strange id going on
[8:55]	WarKirby Magojiro:	my nametag seems to be a significant distance from me
[8:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	I have the simplest anti-caging technique.. ignore it
[8:55]	WarKirby Magojiro:	and the camera centers on it, rather than me
[8:55]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yes, that's another sitting on ground bug
[8:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	yes it does war
[8:55]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The one I demonstrated for ANdrew
[8:55]	Andrew Linden:	WarKirby, you were "pushed" while sitting on the ground.
[8:55]	WarKirby Magojiro:	oh
[8:55]	Andrew Linden:	That problem is fixed in Havok4, I believe.
[8:56]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sitting on the ground does not lock you into place
[8:56]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Whoops, typing
[8:56]	WarKirby Magojiro:	:D
[8:56]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Didn't notice ;)
[8:56]	WarKirby Magojiro:	cage me
[8:56]	WarKirby Magojiro:	wonderful little device
[8:57]	Andrew Linden:	WarKirby, you weren't using extreme negative llBuoyancy() by chance, were you?
[8:57]	WarKirby Magojiro:	nope
[8:57]	Andrew Linden:	to escape the cage?
[8:57]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Nope
[8:57]	WarKirby Magojiro:	the omniphaze
[8:57]	WarKirby Magojiro:	uses apply impulse
[8:57]	WarKirby Magojiro:	tunnels through walls
[8:57]	Kooky Jetaime:	ya know, if I was in a griefing mood I'd love to find out how Omni does vs a temporal
[8:57]	Andrew Linden:	ah
[8:57]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	temporal?
[8:57]	Andrew Linden:	well, the hour is almost up
[8:57]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Well, my final input on ApplyImpulse
[8:57]	Kooky Jetaime:	nasty little physics sucker
[8:58]	Kooky Jetaime:	Black Widow ammo type
[8:58]	Andrew Linden:	right after this I'm going to try to fix the scale <X, X, X> bug and deploy an update to the preview
[8:58]	WarKirby Magojiro:	that just pushes people towards a point
[8:58]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I would like to see the limit raised to whatever won't break things
[8:58]	Andrew Linden:	any last minute questions?
[8:58]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Yes, andrew
[8:58]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	A few million at least
[8:58]	WarKirby Magojiro:	whynot just have no limit
[8:58]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Well, force
[8:58]	WarKirby Magojiro:	at least, within sim
[8:58]	AC:	do you have a Linden Bear ?
[8:58]	AC:	:)
[8:58]	WarKirby Magojiro:	maybe apply a limitation when crossing sim borders
[8:58]	Dnate Mars:	I have a set of torii that are all connected in a chainlike manner. Currently they will act as a chain should act, but when I use it in the beta, my chain blows up.
[8:58]	WarKirby Magojiro:	oh, that too
[8:58]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Velocity, not sure what that should be
[8:58]	Andrew Linden:	I hear you Ryozu on llApplyImpulse(). I'll see what numbers are good.
[8:58]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I need an andrew ear
[8:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Thank you Andrew
[8:59]	WarKirby Magojiro:	bear*
[8:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Kooky
[8:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	About the black widow ammo
[8:59]	Kooky Jetaime:	Yea Ryozu?
[8:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That's a bug, and don't rely on it
[8:59]	Kooky Jetaime:	haha.. I'm sure it is :)
[8:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I know it is =P
[8:59]	Andrew Linden:	Dnate, the problem there is the RCCS ... it is dropping the level of detail of the colision shapes of your chain links... to boxes
[8:59]	Kooky Jetaime:	I should go over to beta and see just how useless that gun is now
[8:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Meet me on Bug Island, I'll be your test target
[8:59]	Andrew Linden:	for best results on physical chains (and this is also true in Havok1) I have the following advice:
[9:00]	Wyn Galbraith needs an Andrew bear too.
[9:00]	Andrew Linden:	(1) make your chain links as big as possible
[9:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Use link sets XD
[9:00]	Kooky Jetaime:	Can I get your bear too Andrew?
[9:00]	Andrew Linden:	(2) use multi-prim objects made from boxes instead of single prim concave shapes
[9:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto chuckles
[9:00]	WarKirby Magojiro:	hm
[9:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ryozu - Bug Island on Aditi?
[9:01]	WarKirby Magojiro:	the bear, andrew?
[9:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yes
[9:01]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not going to worry too much about physical chains breaking, but the RCCS/collision-LOD system needs work
[9:01]	Andrew Linden:	? bear? WarKirby, you want a bear?
[9:01]	WarKirby Magojiro:	everyone does
[9:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heh
[9:02]	Dnate Mars:	I just found it strange that is works so well now, but it never works in beta
[9:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I don't have a bear on this account, amazingly
[9:02]	Wyn Galbraith:	Me do ;)
[9:02]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Andrew Linden bear all round please, if you have one
[9:02]	Wyn Galbraith:	Too
[9:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	But I'm not too worried about it myself
[9:02]	WarKirby Magojiro:	thank you ^^
[9:02]	Burnt Page:	thank you ^_^
[9:02]	Andrew Linden:	Anyone who wants a bear must ask. I don't want to spam everyone with bears.
[9:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	I do.
[9:03]	Kooky Jetaime raises his hand, here please
[9:03]	Dnate Mars:	I will take one too please :)
[9:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	Over here!
[9:03]	IBME Swindlehurst:	I do too!
[9:03]	Seifert Surface escapes before the impending bear epidemic
[9:03]	Seifert Surface:	bye all
[9:03]	Kooky Jetaime waits while inventory is fetched..
[9:04]	IBME Swindlehurst:	ty
[9:04]	Wyn Galbraith:	Whee, thanks. Almost time to expand the collection. Thanks for the meeting, sorry I was late, Zero and powerfailure equals late to havok meetings.
[9:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I might bug you for one later when it's not so busy ;)
[9:05]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, who wanted a bear and didn't get one?
[9:05]	Dnate Mars:	me please :)
[9:05]	Dnate Mars:	ty
[9:05]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm in Ry
[9:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	bye
[9:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Right next to you Kooky ;)
[9:06]	Andrew Linden:	ok everyone, thanks for coming by
[9:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	/gi
[9:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto chuckles
[9:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Take care Andrew =)
[9:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Thanks for the hard work