User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 11 13

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Hey Ryozu
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	have a seat Cliff
[11:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heya =)
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu, I used your chair array for a few of our internal meetings.
[11:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Glad it came in handy =)
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	It works well for voice meetings, since everyone is nicely ordered.
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	so the spatial info in the audio makes it easy to discriminate who is talking
[11:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	I guess this time is not as convenient for most of the regulars. Someday we'll get some euro participants as word goes around.
[11:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I think most are just unaware righ tnow
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	I was thinking about eventually moving an hour to the Teen SL. But maybe when things settle down.
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	BTW, I'm going to log in at the traditional Tuesday hours for only 30 min
[11:06]	Harleen Gretzky:	Also, Robin's hours are at this time
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	in case someone did not know it had changed
[11:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh, are Robin's hours right now?
[11:06]	Harleen Gretzky:	yes
[11:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Not to be crass but.
[11:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'd rather that be the case
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	I'll be in long enough to build an object to notify people that the hours have changed, and maybe catch anyone who shows up on time
[11:06]	Redux Dengaku:	hey harley
[11:06]	Redux Dengaku:	hi andrew :)
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Hi Redux.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah well... we can't schedule all Linden office hours to not conflict.
[11:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The usual crowd that would go to Robin's hours, I don't imagine have much to do with the more technical side of things.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	There are already a large number of Linden's with office hours, and there is only going to be more.
[11:07]	Lex Neva:	shoop
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Hey Lex.
[11:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hey Lex!
[11:07]	Lex Neva:	Allo.
[11:07]	Lex Neva:	Not here for long... just wanted to poke my head in
[11:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I wanted to talk to you about some of your Jira's lex, but I forget which ones
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so here is the Havok4 update:
[11:08]	Lex Neva:	Well, you can do a search on me :)
[11:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heya Simon
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	The Havok engineers think they have found a solution for the crash modes I was talking about.
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	hi everyone
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	They'll probably finish that today
[11:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Awesome: On that note, those crash bugs that Warkirby reported on, do they look like the same modes?
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	and if so, we'll certainly update the preview as soon as we can after that
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	I believe at least one of WarKirby's crash modes is distinct.
[11:09]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	I think Simon is working on that one, is that right Simon?
[11:09]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I figured they were different in some way, since they were so specialized on avatar collision.
[11:10]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure where the crash I'm working on now came from, but it involves too much collision processing
[11:10]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That could be either
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Well, we'll be able to test it under the Havok engineer's fix once that is checked in.
[11:10]	Hevenz Vansant:	hey everyone
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	But Simon thinks there are some problems in the code he's looking at.
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Lessee, what else...
[11:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Not sure when/what change dbut
[11:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	llMoveToTarget on avatar attachments is behaving perfectly now
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	I'm working on a fix for the "selected objects collide with their shift-drag duplicates" problem.
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	I've got it fixed for when there is only one object selected
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	but am working on also solving it for multi-select right now
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	that bug is considered a "blocker" for us trying Havok4 out on our own little private estate/continent on SL proper.
[11:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh?
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	That is great to hear that llMoveToTarget is now working right Ryozu
[11:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I logged in a couple hours ago to test and was overjoyed
[11:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	;)
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Whew! I'm glad to finally get that to your satisfaction
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Cool. Things are looking good. We're getting close.
[11:13]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	There's still some minor issues with avatars, well, at least not -huge- issues
[11:13]	Lex Neva:	Last I checked (a few weeks ago), there were some pretty major functional regressions in scripted physics behavior...
[11:13]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I read the log from the meeting I missed. You said there were 3 heighfield modes in Havok4?
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	I've got one volunteer for testing their estate on Havok4, but we're focusing first on finding some candidates by searching for private estates that crash alot
[11:14]	Lex Neva:	I'll volunteer my region :)
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	then we sort through those to see if any meet our more stringent requirements
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Does it crash a lot Lex?
[11:14]	Lex Neva:	In fact, it's already up in beta (Suffugium)
[11:14]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I wish I had a region!
[11:14]	Lex Neva:	I'm not sure. I do know it crashed the first time dan brought it up.
[11:14]	Ryozu Yamamoto chuckles
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Maybe you should put up some content that occasionally crashes it... every hour or so.
[11:15]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	XD
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	So it shows up on the crash-rate radar ;-)
[11:15]	Lex Neva:	On the other hand, it has a ton of automated physics stuff... almost all of which doesn't work properly right now.
[11:15]	Lex Neva:	I don't actually know what content crashes it... I haven't had time :/
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Doesn't work properly in Havok4 you mean, Lex?
[11:15]	Lex Neva:	Right.
[11:15]	Lex Neva:	Do you only care about crashes right now?
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Ah
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	I think the plan is to bring candidate regions over onto the preview first
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	so the estate owners can review them and make sure Havok4 doesn't totally destroy some crucial bit of content there.
[11:16]	Lex Neva shrugs
[11:16]	Lex Neva:	Gotcha.
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	In other words... we'll be moving slowly and carefully when we do move.
[11:16]	Lex Neva:	Good.
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, we sorta only care about crashing regions right now.
[11:16]	Lex Neva:	Unfortunately I don't have much time to get into my region in beta and sit down and actually list out what's broken...
[11:16]	Lex Neva:	okay
[11:16]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh! I remember now Lex
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Philip really wants to see the "crash rate" needle move
[11:17]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	SVC-889: Are the objects doing the collision using vehicle code in particular?
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	so he wants us to focus on helping people who have crashtastic regions
[11:17]	Lex Neva:	No, _none_ of them are using the actual Vehicle api.
[11:17]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Or is it happenign with just stripped down phantom physical objects using basic movement calls?
[11:17]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Huh, weird.
[11:17]	Lex Neva:	Well, I can go re-enable my automated vehicles, which were so broken they were dragging the region's dilation down to 0.2
[11:17]	Lex Neva:	I couldn't get a stripped-down script to do it, ryozu
[11:17]	Hypatia Callisto:	the ones in caledon that are more crashtastic also have vehicles, yes :)
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	I'll put on on the candidate list for the 2nd pass deployment Lex.
[11:18]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I just couldn't glean enough info from that jira to figure out what could be causing it.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	The very first pass will be totally focused on crashers... not just enthusiastic bleeding-edge risk takers ;-)
[11:18]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That is, what's the common factor
[11:18]	Lex Neva:	Awesome, Andrew. There's just a heck of a lot of physical content there... so I think it's a very good testbed for "before/after"... you can see how things should work in the main grid, and then go to the test grid and see how nothing works at all ;)
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	ok lex, good to know
[11:19]	Lex Neva:	I'll go re-enable my automated stuff... hopefully it'll crash for you.
[11:19]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hehe
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	Lex, I may also be able to bring your region up on the preview for a while anyway.
[11:19]	Lex Neva:	that'd be great :)
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	If I can fit it in for a while I'll let you now.
[11:19]	Lex Neva:	One thing -- will you take the simstate from the main grid or from the existing one in beta?
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	People who show up at my office hours and beg for special treatment may get some... until the demand is too high.
[11:20]	Lex Neva nods
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Lex, the simstate would be pulled from the "main grid"
[11:20]	Lex Neva:	I'm not begging... just offering our services as canary :) We have so much intricate code in Suffugium that every update that causes some kind of problem causes a problem in Suffugium.
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	btw, I'm trying to not use "grid" anymore
[11:21]	Lex Neva:	Gotcha. Can you email when you bring it up in preview? I just want to disable my vendors... just on the very off-chance that some kind of LSL-viewing exploit comes up.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	but we don't have a common term for the different "worlds" within the SL space.
[11:21]	Lex Neva:	Hmm.
[11:21]	Redux Dengaku:	"chicken coup"
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Lex, if I can bring it up I'll emal you
[11:21]	Lex Neva:	rockin
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	however I wouldn't even try to do it until I get the next update out.
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	Lessee... what other updates...
[11:22]	Lex Neva:	right
[11:22]	Lex Neva:	I'm in no rush :)
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not really on top of any small bugs that have been fixed recently. I think there are a few but I haven't quite caught up since the weekend.
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	So, I think that concludes any announcements or updates I have.
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	The floor is now open for whatever.
[11:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	heightfield
[11:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	And Avatar friction computation
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	What about heightfield?
[11:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I believe you said you've switched from one heightfield mode to another?
[11:23]	Lex Neva:	Oop, sorry, I shoulda waited till the floor was open.
[11:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hehe
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	The avatar friction is somewhat interesting. It has changed a lot since Havok1
[11:24]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It's changed a lot since the last build I tested of Havok4 as well
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	We uses to use "dynamic friction" for the avatar, to modulate its walk speed
[11:24]	Lex Neva:	eew
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	It was a curve, as a function of avatar speed, that had a local minima around the ideal walk/run speed
[11:24]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	There's a couple issues I've noticed in the current beta build
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	however Havok4 does not handle dynamic friction... it caches the friction value in some data structures
[11:25]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'm not sure if they relate, but from the meeting before last log, I think they do?
[11:25]	Lex Neva:	(more seats available, folks...)
[11:25]	Lex Neva:	(grab one and a new one'll appear)
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	and it is expensive to update the friction constantly
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	so, the avatar really only has two friction states in Havok4... very little or a lot
[11:25]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I believe you said when you changed the heighfield type, the issue with avatars who couldn't fly down was fixed?
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	if it is walking or flying its friction is set to very little
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	if it is trying to stop or stand it is set to a lot
[11:26]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'm a bit confused about that one
[11:26]	Lex Neva:	Does that impede llPushObject() on stationary avs?
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	No, the avatars that could not fly down was a different issue, but was fixed around the same time
[11:26]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Well, odd things now
[11:26]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	There appears to be no air friction in flight mode
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	What do you mean "no air friction"?
[11:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Or something, I'm not entirely sure. I just noticed If I flew up, and stopped
[11:27]	Lex Neva:	lots of flight assists use llSetForce(), to balance with the friction...
[11:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I kept going up
[11:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	And up
[11:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	And vice versa
[11:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It may very well have been my flight assist
[11:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I didn' thave time to narrow it down before the meeting
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... ok I wouldn't be surprised if there were a problem there.
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	The avatar control code is... messy and fragile.
[11:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'll do some more testing and post a Jira on it after the meeting
[11:28]	Simon Linden:	There were some recent changes to avatar mass that should make it (now) much closer to havok1 values
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	And I recently made some changes that would affect flying high
[11:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The other issue is definatly heighfield related though
[11:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Remember the issue of an avatar being rotated on the X/Y axis?
[11:28]	Lex Neva:	I've gathered that the avatar control code is fragile... llPushObject(), in havok1, completely fails on an avatar if their user is holding an arrow key
[11:29]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Appears to be a heavy issue with walking on the ground in the current build
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	The most helpful thing to do from my perspective is to file an SVC bug describing the problem, with a script that reproduces the problem
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	If no script, at least an object given to me in the preview so I have it in my inventory.
[11:29]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	As long as it's a problem involving a script, I can try ;)
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	"heavy issue with walking on the ground" ? That intrigues me
[11:30]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Long story short though, walking on anything prim is fine, my avatar maintains 0 values for the x/y rotation
[11:30]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Speaking eulers here
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	I do recall the issue with avatars being rotated.
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	There was another recent bug where the avatar would NOT rotate. But I thought I fixed that beforethe last update.
[11:31]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Simply walking across the ground however will cause the avatar to rotate widly.. it appears to attempt to correct itself, but never does so completly
[11:31]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Around the x/y axis that is.
[11:31]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The attempted correction even appears to make the avatar bounce a little
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... rotations on the x and y axes is bad. I thought I had fixed that too.
[11:31]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	This is stricly with the ground however
[11:32]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	And only showed up again after the heightfield change
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, describe how you cause the bad behavior in an SVC bug and I'll look at that one myself.
[11:32]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Alright
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	I take all of the avatar control bugs.
[11:32]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The last issue I wanted to bring up is just a rehash
[11:32]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Scripted force calls affecting an avatar in "Landing" mode
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes.
[11:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Still planning on letting them happen?
[11:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	At least from attachments if nothing else?
[11:33]	Lex Neva:	You mean, like, when an avatar is splatting?
[11:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yeah
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	I'm willing to re-examine that problem. It is a design issue but is very open to changes at the moment.
[11:33]	Lex Neva:	So that'd be a new feature... havok1 completely locks down the avatar while it's splatting
[11:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	If I "Splat" into a vertical wall, And end up tunneling through it, I end up flying.. very far, as my script cannot stop me.
[11:34]	Lex Neva:	oh, that's interesting.
[11:34]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Actually Lex, Havok1 does not
[11:34]	Hevenz Vansant:	:p
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	Best thing to do is to file a bug describing exactly (with repro script or object) where it failes. Mostly so I don't forgeet to address it.
[11:34]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I can "splat" and scripted physics will still move me.
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	If you haven't already filed the bug.
[11:34]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[11:34]	Lex Neva:	It doesn't? huh.
[11:34]	Lex Neva:	I coulda sworn it did.
[11:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I just have a hard time scripting a repro for such behaviors, it's a little odd.
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	Who here is in a European timezone? (just curious)
[11:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Lex: Positive it doesn't, I've been doing it for over a year now ;)
[11:35]	Lex Neva:	hah, k
[11:35]	Lex Neva:	not I, andrew
[11:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It locks out avatar control from the keyboard, just not scripted physics
[11:35]	Lex Neva:	Interesting.
[11:35]	Masaw Umaga:	I'm GMT-2
[11:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Havok1 that is
[11:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	More seats available to anyone who wants to sit down
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu. it locks push control for your attachments? or external objects?
[11:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Everything
[11:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	If I have any momentum, and say, hit a verticle wall at a 45 degree angle
[11:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I can't stop, I keep flying
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, in Havok4 it blocks out everything when "landing"
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	however in Havok1 it does block out some things.
[11:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	IN Havok4 that is
[11:37]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	In Havok1, my scripts are able to stop me
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	But in particular... YOUR objects... are they attachments or external objects?
[11:37]	Wind Key 2: Redux Dengaku has completely wound down!
[11:37]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Attachments
[11:37]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sorry for the confusion
[11:37]	Wind Key 2 whispers: Lex Neva winds up Redux Dengaku
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, that is good to know. Mention that in your bug.
[11:37]	Redux Dengaku:	^_^
[11:37]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... one thing I've been meaning to say in previous office hours...
[11:38]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Obligatory Vehicles are still acting funny, and that's all I had to talk about today =D
[11:38]	Lex Neva:	Has there been any change to how the "strength" of a llPushObject() is calculated?
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	If you ask a question and I ignore it.... it is probably because I didn't actually see it go by in the chat history.
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not very good at following old comments, especially when the input rate is high, or I'm busy typing some long comment.
[11:39]	CindyLou Deerhunter:	hi
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	So the best thing to do is just re-ask.
[11:39]	Lex Neva:	Has there been any change to how the "strength" of a llPushObject() is calculated?
[11:39]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	^_^
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu, we're punting all vehicle bugs for later.
[11:40]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Right, I know, I'm just being a pest ;)
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	We'll be looking for regions that DON'T use a lot of vehicles for the early bleeding edge trials.
[11:40]	Lex Neva:	ah, I see
[11:40]	Lex Neva:	don't pick me then :P
[11:40]	Redux Dengaku:	people still use vehicles outside of sandboxes?
[11:40]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	lol Redux
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Lex, I changed how llPushObject() strength is calculated...
[11:40]	Hevenz Vansant:	:p
[11:41]	Lex Neva:	well, I suppose it depends on whether you mean "vehicles" or "Vehicles"
[11:41]	Lex Neva:	Argh, andrew :( Can we get some kind of pseudocode?
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	I capped it in some circumstances
[11:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Vehicle API
[11:41]	Redux Dengaku:	also, does it depend on what the definition of "is" is?
[11:41]	Lex Neva:	Well... you broke something of mine :(
[11:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto smacks Redux.
[11:41]	Redux Dengaku:	ow ;.;
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Lex, yes pseudo code may be possible.
[11:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto kisses Redux's cheek.
[11:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Dork
[11:41]	Redux Dengaku:	<3
[11:41]	Lex Neva:	That'd be oh so very much appreciated... for so long llPushObject()'s been a black box
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	It occurs to me that if I publish the pseudo code, I should do so sooner rather than later.
[11:42]	Lex Neva:	we have "jump points" on the roofs in Suffugium... they apply very precise pushes to get your avatar to another roof
[11:42]	Lex Neva:	And, well, they're broken :(
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	So that if anyone finds a problem when they review it, I can change it before Havok4 goes out.
[11:42]	Lex Neva:	And that cap makes me fear they'll never be fixable.
[11:42]	Lex Neva:	I know this isn't a crasher so it's not a priority right now
[11:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Lex: I'm pretty sure any changes made are actually relaxing the limitations at this point
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Lex... the problem with the jump points is probably more to do with how the avatar motion is computed than the llPushObject() capping itself.
[11:43]	Lex Neva:	right
[11:43]	Lex Neva:	the possibility occurred to me
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think the llPushObject() code changes will affect pushes from nearby objects that are well within their "script energy" budge.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	budget
[11:43]	Lex Neva nods.
[11:44]	Lex Neva:	It's probably the av movement code, then. I know I had a HELL of a time getting them to work in the first place, because there are certain times (like when a user has the forward key held down) when llPushObject() is almost completely dampened
[11:44]	Lex Neva:	EXCEPT pushes along <0,0,1>
[11:44]	Lex Neva:	It's a mess :(
[11:44]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Weird
[11:44]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I never even knew that
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	hehe - watch where you click :)
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	yes, it is a mess
[11:44]	Lex Neva:	Took me a lot of experimentation to figure out that workaround. The jump point first does the up component of its push, then the forward.
[11:45]	Redux Dengaku:	i noticed a bug in havok 1 where holding forward while walking dampens all physics, but if always run is enabled or you're stnading still theres no dampening. maybe related?
[11:45]	Lex Neva:	So... well, this is one for the preview, but (and this probably goes without saying), feel free to take a look at any of the code in Suffugium, Andrew :)
[11:45]	Lex Neva:	perhaps, redux
[11:46]	Redux Dengaku:	it seems like walking has a significant impact on overriding physics, at least with havok 1. i'm not sure how they go together but it may have to do with the way the lsl calls are being sent and not directly related to the physics engine
[11:46]	Redux Dengaku:	just a thought...
[11:46]	Lex Neva:	I think it's more to do with how the sim is convincing havok to move the avatar
[11:46]	Lex Neva:	ie the avatar movement code is overriding LSL
[11:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I didn't think pushing the avatar around in Havok1 would cause a noticable load on the physics engine
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	unless the avatar were in the middle of a pile of dynamic objects
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	I would hope that such a problem would be fixed in Havok4
[11:47]	Redux Dengaku:	it's pretty low stress unless the avatar hits something
[11:48]	Redux Dengaku:	i.e. with regard to ryo's "bouncing off a wall" issue
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	Dan Linden wants to do an "avatar load test" on the preview before we try to deploy it... even to our own private estate
[11:48]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hmmm
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	so we'll probably try to do that sometime this week
[11:48]	Lex Neva:	oh, going back to earlier... yes, llPushObject pseudocode sooner rather than later would rock :) People in the community have wished for that for ages. Having it going forward in havok 4 would be nice.
[11:48]	Red Bull Machine whispers: Enjoy your free beverage queenbeeUAE Akina!
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	usually we just try to convince fellow Linden's to pile into a region
[11:48]	Hevenz Vansant:	:p
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, any more questions? About whatever?
[11:49]	Redux Dengaku:	any chance of all gestures being disabled in havok4?
[11:49]	Redux Dengaku:	i would like to see that
[11:49]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	lol
[11:49]	Lex Neva:	hahaha
[11:49]	Lex Neva:	seriously
[11:49]	Hevenz Vansant:	roflmao
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Hehe, no. That is outside the scope.
[11:49]	Lex Neva:	How about just booting those jerks? ;)
[11:50]	Hevenz Vansant:	:p
[11:50]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That actually makes me think of something
[11:50]	Redux Dengaku:	but what about freedom of expression! what will the philistines say??
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	I'm looking for a better location to hold office hours
[11:50]	Lex Neva:	Okay, well, I noticed one issue in my brief foray into the beta grid... some scripted, physical, phantom devices were colliding with some stationary nonphysical nonphantom objects.
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	but I haven't been able to explore yet.
[11:50]	Redux Dengaku:	oh actually me too; how is banning/ejecting being handled in havok4?
[11:50]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	More on Avatar Rotation: Andrew, do you remember the reasons why scripts can't rotate avatars? I can't....
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Lex, was that recent?
[11:50]	Lex Neva:	about 2 weeks ago, lemme pull up the jira
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	I think Kelly fixed some phantom collision issues
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Ah good, if they are that old I would hope they're fixed.
[11:51]	Lex Neva:	I couldn't whittle it down to a small repro
[11:51]	Lex Neva:	ooh, neat
[11:51]	Hevenz Vansant:	You could always use our Empyrean sim for office hours, we got a nice club built elevated up with nice lighting :p
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	I'll try to remember to search the public jira for those objects and point Kelly Linden at them
[11:52]	Lex Neva:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-889
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Hevenz, I'm not opposed to using a private estate... as long as it is publicly accessible.
[11:52]	Hevenz Vansant:	Well just let us know then you're more than welcome there anytime
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Ok thanks Hevenz. I'
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	I'll try to survey the area when I narrow down my choices.
[11:53]	Hevenz Vansant:	Very well
[11:54]	Redux Dengaku:	if you guys need space for a meeting area i'm happy to sacrifice something for the good of the hive
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I'm just looking for a different location. It is only a matter of time before this office hour conflicts with some other event at this spot
[11:55]	Redux Dengaku:	talk to me after i have a mess of space, just need an idea of what you'll need :)
[11:55]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	And jumpy locals
[11:55]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Redux: A mess of space probably covers it
[11:55]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heh
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Ok Redux.
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, sounds like we don't have many other pressing issues to talk about.
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	That is good, the hour is almost over.
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	How useful do you view these office hours?
[11:56]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Very
[11:56]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	;)
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	How about a scale... 1 - 10, where 10 is very useful and 1 is a total waste of time
[11:57]	Lex Neva:	8
[11:57]	Lex Neva:	there's only so much a JIRA issue can do
[11:57]	Hevenz Vansant:	9.2
[11:57]	Lex Neva:	and we don't often get direct responses to our issues or questions
[11:57]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	9, The feedback is in valuable in figuring things out.
[11:57]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	invaluable even
[11:57]	Lex Neva:	and sometimes issues fall by the wayside... there's nothing like direct conversation
[11:58]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Direct real time conversation accomplishes a lot when you're not sure if something is intended or just a consequence
[11:58]	Sappheire Demina:	oops
[11:58]	Hevenz Vansant:	heya sapph :P
[11:58]	Lex Neva:	Good point, ryozu
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, issues can definitely fall by the wayside.
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	I need constant reminding, btw.
[11:58]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	XD
[11:58]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	In that case, a 10 for me ;)
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	I've got a lot of stuff on my plate.
[11:58]	Lex Neva:	Yeah, I'll go 10... _I_ just don't often have time to make these meetings ;)
[11:59]	Lex Neva:	for something so fundamental as havok, though...
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	It is kinda a bad question... I don't expect low numbers from anyone who shows up regularly.
[11:59]	Lex Neva:	This is my first havok meeting, sooo
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	But it is nice to hear that they are useful, since I often wonder how to prioritize my time.
[11:59]	Vincent Nacon:	heya, a little late I guess I am?
[12:00]	Lex Neva:	Andrew, I think this kind of thing is a VERY important use of your time.
[12:00]	Hypatia Callisto:	yep, closing up soon Vincent :)
[12:00]	Redux Dengaku:	only by about an hour, vincent :)
[12:00]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Office hours are encouraged by many Lindens internally, btw.
[12:00]	Lex Neva:	I hate to say it, but I've seen a lot of releases where LL has tested stuff to death, and it seemed like it worked GREAT for you... but plenty of residents could have told you something didn't work in beta, averting catastrophe on release...
[12:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Well heck Vince
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Many Lindens recommend them to those who haven't yet set them up.
[12:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Can't say I've never done the same though
[12:00]	Vincent Nacon:	ah no worry
[12:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew: For one thing, it makes you a human to the residents, instead of just a figurehead, that's usually a good thing
[12:01]	Lex Neva:	On the other hand, it's gotta be tough... one of you, 15 of us, tons of text. I've seen some of sidewinder's logs... and I can't imagine keeping up with all those comments.
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	I should mention again that I'll be showing up for the old office hour schedule tonight... for only 30 minutes, in case anyone shows up who did not hear about the changes.
[12:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[12:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Might see Kitto there
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	The nice thing about this office hour is that San Francisco tests their emergency siren at noon on Tuesdays
[12:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Before you go Andrew, Simon, Thanks again for all the hard work.
[12:02]	Lex Neva:	Hah, time's up!
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	so I can easily tell when the time is up ;-)
[12:03]	Hypatia Callisto:	hee
[12:03]	Lex Neva:	How's that oil on the bay? :(
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	Thanks to everyone for testing and writing up jiras - it really helps us too
[12:03]	Hevenz Vansant:	ha i remember those emergency sirens when i lived there
[12:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Things are getting whipped into shape, and you have no idea how much I appreciate having llMoveToTarget work right now ;)
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, thanks everyone for showing up.
[12:03]	Vincent Nacon:	since I missed most of it :P, can someone update me anything new?
[12:03]	Hevenz Vansant:	everyone grab a slice of watermelon on the way out the vitamins are good for you
[12:03]	Masaw Umaga:	bye
[12:04]	Lex Neva:	'wave
[12:04]	Lex Neva:	I fail.
[12:04]	Lex Neva:	there.
[12:04]	Lex Neva:	bye folks!
[12:04]	Hevenz Vansant:	bye everyone
[12:04]	Vincent Nacon:	seeya
[12:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Vince: Uh, let's see. They've done a lot of avatar movement bug fixes, but there's still some left. Havok Engineers have a fix that might go out today for some of the crash modes
[12:05]	Vincent Nacon:	ah ok
[12:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	But it looks like there's another new crash mode involving avatar collisions