User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 02 14

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:04]	Simon Linden:	I bumped it up the MOTOR limit to 256m/s
[17:05]	Areth Gall:	o.O
[17:05]	Creem Pye:	is that active in thsi sim?
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	I can never keep track of what's pushed vs. in QA :) ... let me look when I made the change...
[17:05]	Zwagoth Klaar:	a sim per second should be sufficient no?
[17:05]	Sidewinder Linden:	is that in the deployed build, simon?
[17:06]	Sidewinder Linden:	79818 is the release
[17:06]	Areth Gall:	Being able to travel that fast would cause effects that would ultimately be bottlenecked by sim-borders. I've traveled faster than that and it literally looks like you're stuck against a window for a few seconds.
[17:06]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi andrew
[17:06]	Creem Pye:	it's going to be most useful for stuff that doesn't get anywhere near the limit
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	woah, 256 m/sec huh?
[17:06]	Renee Faulds:	hi Andrew
[17:06]	Andrew Linden wonders what will happen
[17:06]	Creem Pye:	if you use a large linear motor timescale, you only reach a fraction of the target velocity
[17:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	i saw a ferry last night - cruise ship that's 3 sims long - it pauses at the region borders to resync before keeping on going...
[17:07]	Creem Pye:	so for a locomotive, i'd use a timescale of 200s or so, then a very big motor direction to compensate =P
[17:07]	Sofia Westwick:	hey have you seen how avatars float when standing and walking in Havok 4 about 0,078 Meters off the ground https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1520
[17:07]	Gypsy Paz:	if we can get over 256m/sec maybe that will lead to traveling backwards in time?
[17:07]	Simon Linden:	No, the change was done on Tuesday, so it's not out yet
[17:07]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[17:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok so that would be in the next deploy
[17:08]	Sofia Westwick:	what about the floating avatar issue?
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	very large motors would be clamped to 40 on set, so setting it very large would not quite compensate
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	however, under the new change... that vehicle may get frisky
[17:08]	Areth Gall:	agreed.
[17:08]	Renee Faulds:	I've noticed that also Sofia
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	What is the floating avatar issue?
[17:09]	Sofia Westwick:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1520
[17:09]	Sofia Westwick:	there
[17:09]	Sofia Westwick:	you float about 0.078 meters off the gorund in havok 4
[17:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	this is feet not quite on terrain
[17:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	like the bugs about not standing right on prim surfaces
[17:09]	Renee Faulds:	AV's float off the ground or object
[17:09]	Renee Faulds:	right
[17:09]	Drugdealer Tripsa:	hey all :)
[17:09]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[17:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	from what i've heard the one for prim surfaces has been fixed though.. yours is on terrain, right?
[17:10]	Sofia Westwick:	that in the pics was on prim floor but at the time of the pics it was the same issue on the normal terrian
[17:10]	AlexanderThe Benelli:	I'm stil floating and this is a prim surface
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	The avatar shape was optimized in Havok1 to get the feet close to the actual surface, even though it actually hovers above it.
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	The avatar may still need tweaks in havok4... however Havok4 has some slight differences
[17:11]	Sofia Westwick:	will that be an easy fix?
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	supposely implicit spheres don't have the "collision tolerance" boundary as most of the other shapes do
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	and the tuning of the avatar shape is to hide that collision tolerance. So we'll get the wrong thing happening on large implicit spheres... maybe
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	It would be nice to make the client make any small adjustments necessary to get the feet in the right place, if the adjustments are small.
[17:13]	Creem Pye:	is this related to sit targets appearing a bit different too?
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	But... the real answer is... we don't consider the floating avatar a very high priority. it could be fixed after deploying H4 to everywhere
[17:14]	Gypsy Paz:	its sounds like it might be, sittargets is what I came by to discuss today
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	before we open the table up, I've got a few announcements...
[17:14]	Sofia Westwick:	yes I figured it wasn't priority but it looks kind of silly and I hope its fixed at some point not far off
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Some of these I'll try to reiterate at the end of the meeting in case anyone else shows up.
[17:14]	Rex Cronon:	how high is the priority for collision detection, between objects and avatars?
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	First of all... I'm going on vacation next week, and won't be able to attend these office hours.
[17:15]	Wolfhaven Teleportation HUD v2.0 Ready
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	However, Simon is going to show up and make any announcements and answer questions.
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	And of course, Sidewinder can usually make the Thursday hour.
[17:16]	Sidewinder Linden:	actually this tuesday i can be here, although that is usually a tricky time for me
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	Second thing... there is a bug where vendors may rez collections of objects in the wrong spot
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	that bug is fixed in the tip of our codebase, but won't be out until next update
[17:17]	Sidewinder Linden:	which will hopefully be early to mid next week... we'll push it as fast as we can, since this is important
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	Oh yeah... another thing
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	we're getting close to "good enough" that some of us are itchy to declare Havok4 as "done"
[17:18]	Gypsy Paz:	;)
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	which means, we'll be trying to sort the bugs into to categories... those that prevent us from deploying it everywhere
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	and those that we're willing to ship and fix later
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Of course, we'll be trying to listen to feedback to help us make those decisions
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	so to those of you interested in influencing the final blocker bug list I would say
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	collision(integer total_number) doesn't work right
[17:19]	Sidewinder Linden:	hold please rex...
[17:20]	Rex Cronon:	ok
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	that you may want to continue your vigilence and participation in the public jira bugs, comments and other discussions
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	the blog is a channel,
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	as are these office hours
[17:20]	Sidewinder Linden:	one thing that i'd like us all to keep in mind is that "shipping" is not necessarily the end of fixing things...
[17:21]	Sidewinder Linden:	right now we have many regions that have a pretty high crash rate
[17:21]	Sidewinder Linden:	and they are itching to have havok4, in order to rduce their crash rates
[17:21]	Sidewinder Linden:	so part of this is to figure out "how good do we need to be" in order to safely deploy to the whole second life grid, and then finish lower priority issues
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, there is pressure from some mainland parcel owners
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	also some pressure internally. There are a few projects that are waiting for Havok4 to get merged into the codebase
[17:22]	Renee Faulds:	if mass deployment does not not create HAVOK in itself
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	Visual Studio 2005, for example
[17:22]	Sidewinder Linden:	hehe
[17:22]	Sidewinder Linden:	yup renee... we're trying to avoid that ;)
[17:22]	Gypsy Paz:	VS?
[17:22]	Renee Faulds:	if I may reiterate a question from last Tuesdays meeting,"is there work being done on a protocol t=for client server swap of inventory as far a backup system goes"?
[17:22]	Sofia Westwick:	one thing I can say is 2 of my islands were suffering with time dilation issues and after switching thme to havok 4 it fixed the issues
[17:22]	Sidewinder Linden:	backup is a whole separate project, unrelated to the havok4 update project
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	No work being done right now that I'm aware of Renee
[17:23]	Renee Faulds:	ty
[17:23]	Gypsy Paz:	a 3rd party did a inventory backup thing
[17:23]	Sidewinder Linden:	interesting sofia - we are lokoing at performance optimization... some folks have seen your results, and others the other direction... that's good to hear
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	Speaking of performance problems. Simon might want to talk about some work he's been doing to address some Havok4 problems there.
[17:24]	Sidewinder Linden:	which regions in particular were those, sofia?
[17:24]	Sofia Westwick:	you should of seen Odessa Grand and Odessa Enchanting before the change its been a big improvement
[17:24]	Renee Faulds:	yes
[17:24]	Sidewinder Linden:	cool...
[17:24]	Sidewinder Linden:	simon?
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	Those regions were probably suffering from mini-deepthinks
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	jumping dolphins maybe?
[17:25]	Sofia Westwick:	yes I think so
[17:25]	Simon Linden:	Well, I spent today doing profiling and performance tuning, and while I still need to do some more tests, I hope we can get H4 frame rates to be better than H1
[17:26]	Simon Linden:	We've seen too many cases where the frame rates drop with a large number of avatars, but I did make improvements today
[17:26]	Renee Faulds:	will H4 support more AV's
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	We were doing detailed handling for too many collision callbacks, right Simon?
[17:27]	Simon Linden:	Yes, and our internal data structures were unnecessarliy complicated, so it's been cleaned up
[17:27]	Sofia Westwick:	I've seen that too in Sanctuary Rock time dilation would drop alot to where you had problems with moving with alot of avatars in it and its on havok 4
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	Since that code falls into some per-avatar stuff, we should see an improvement for large crowds. I think that was Simon's test case... a little crowd.
[17:27]	Sidewinder Linden:	i'd like to comment on this a bit...
[17:27]	Simon Linden:	I was using 40 avatars
[17:27]	Sidewinder Linden:	there are a couple of things about "capacity" o think about
[17:28]	Sidewinder Linden:	one is that currently (with havok1) people often use "where does the region crash" as a measure of how many avatars is "safe"
[17:28]	Sidewinder Linden:	havok4 has many fewer crash modes
[17:28]	Sidewinder Linden:	so going forward the real answer will be more gated by real performance
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	"lag"
[17:28]	Sidewinder Linden:	so the good news is that so far, crashing does not define the boundary of how many avatars you can put on a region
[17:28]	Sidewinder Linden:	right
[17:29]	Sidewinder Linden:	the performance work that is going on is to improve the simulator part of "lag"
[17:29]	Sidewinder Linden:	(and everyone here is probably clear that lag also comes from highly loaded graphics cards in busy 3d scenes)
[17:29]	Sofia Westwick:	yes
[17:29]	Sidewinder Linden:	so if simon is successful in raising frame rates, it is *possible* that the amount of lag for a certina number of avatars might go up
[17:30]	Sidewinder Linden:	but it's too early to say for sure
[17:30]	Rex Cronon:	i haven't noticed a difference in frame rates when in wireframe
[17:30]	Sidewinder Linden:	at the same time... at sanctuary rock and other places i've heard many people say that h4 "feels" smoother and faster under high load than h1
[17:30]	Sidewinder Linden:	so i'd think that some of this has to do with how it reacts to high load and the perceived performance, along with the numbers
[17:31]	Renee Faulds:	what about addition graphics i.e. particle displays
[17:31]	Renee Faulds:	along with AV count
[17:31]	Sidewinder Linden:	one thing - and this is a personal hunch... i wonder if we are grabbing stats in a slightly different way that might make direct comparisons not quite "apples to apples" but we haven't had time to look at that too much
[17:31]	Creem Pye:	particles would also be included in graphics, since that's a client-side operation
[17:31]	Sidewinder Linden:	particle systems are rendered on the viewer
[17:31]	Sidewinder Linden:	so most of the limiting factor there is the graphics hardware... in most cases
[17:32]	Renee Faulds:	even running dual 512 cards I experience this
[17:32]	Sidewinder Linden:	unless there is a lot of scripting behind it :)
[17:32]	Kitto Flora:	Is this work going to reduce the Simulator CPU load, due to physics processing?
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	There are many forms and causes of "lag". I figure most of the people here could tell network lag from render lag.
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	Or simulator lag.
[17:32]	Kitto Flora can
[17:32]	Renee Faulds:	lag among the masses
[17:33]	Renee Faulds:	i.e a group on a SIM experiencing it
[17:33]	Sidewinder Linden:	there is some interesting work going on internally, to look at lag sources
[17:33]	Sidewinder Linden:	i'm in the boston area with the windlight team, and they have some intriguing things that haven't seen the light of day yet, but might help to illustrate where the lag sources are for some scenes if the ideas work
[17:33]	Arawn Spitteler visited Isle of View earlier, and had to leave
[17:33]	Creem Pye:	I haven't checked recently, but is it relatively safe to make a phantom+physical object nonphantom while it's intersecting with another object, in recent builds?
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, Kitto. This is CPU usage optimization. However I don't really think Simon has found the source of the 2X cost of some complex vehicles
[17:34]	Renee Faulds:	ty
[17:34]	Sofia Westwick:	I would like to see something like that Sidewinder
[17:34]	Sidewinder Linden:	at the moment, we're mostly focusing on the high avatar count type of scenario, but that doesn't mean we've forgotten trains, kitto :)
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	Creem, no unsetting the phantom bit will still cause the object to get pushed out.
[17:34]	Kitto Flora:	Goody :)
[17:35]	Sofia Westwick:	the floating avatar issue won't be forgotten either?
[17:35]	Creem Pye:	well, pushed out is ok - my concern is simulator time dilation going to 0 or crashing the sim =)
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, no the crashing shouldn't happen.
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	Time dilation may go down, depends on how bad the content is.
[17:35]	Zwagoth Klaar:	Is air resistance something that is calculated in H4, I noticed that objects dont spin forever when they have buoyancy and a rotation is applied to them.
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	but it shouldn't fall to totally unusable levels
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	BTW, that reminds me...
[17:36]	Renee Faulds:	I would like to throw in that H4 and Second Life 1.18.5 (3) seem to run great togetrher so far
[17:36]	Sidewinder Linden:	creem - remind me about td 0 after andrew's done ok?
[17:36]	AlexanderThe Benelli:	Is their actually a resource which enables us to look up values and principles of H4?
[17:36]	Creem Pye:	sure
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	I recently added code that disables collisions on a pairwise basis when the avatar gets embedded deep inside another object. Not in the current deploy, but should be in the next.
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	Perhaps some of you could think to play with it when it goes out and let me know what needs to be tweaked.
[17:37]	Areth Gall:	Pairwise basis? As in the avatar and the vehicle will not collide?
[17:37]	Gypsy Paz:	ohh, that sounds like you might have fixed my problem already?
[17:37]	Areth Gall:	erm, avatar and object* sorry.
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	The idea was to prevent the avatar from getting pinned between object penetration and the heightfield, or another object
[17:37]	Sidewinder Linden:	/alexander - the project wiki is here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Havok_4_Beta_Home
[17:37]	Zwagoth Klaar:	pairwise, it disables collision between the avatar and the object only, not between anything else
[17:37]	Rex Cronon:	so, if i am in a object nothing can touch me?
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	So... if a griefer put a megaprim over your avatar... you should become collisionless with that one object, but not other objects that you aren't penetrating. That's what I meant by "pairwise basis"
[17:38]	Jcool410 Wildcat:	could that pairwise thing be implemented in a way that it could be utilized by scripts between scripted objects?
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	just that avatar and that object cease to collide
[17:38]	Gypsy Paz:	this repo I setup of the bug I found today is going to be auto-returned soon, can I show it
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	until the avatar exits
[17:39]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmm andrew - would that mean that any prim over you would be a shield, as long as it touches you?
[17:39]	Sidewinder Linden:	in terms of weapons / combat style?
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	Whats te implication of 'not collide'? Does that me an that from the Av's pov, the prim becomes phantom? You can walk through/out of it?
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, I suppose it could be used as a new type of shield.
[17:39]	Creem Pye:	I think that would usually be the case already, sidewinder
[17:39]	Renee Faulds:	ooo
[17:40]	Creem Pye:	if you sit insid\e a giant hollow sphere, bullets would hit it instead of you =)
[17:40]	Sofia Westwick:	thats a neat idea Andrew
[17:40]	Areth Gall:	My question is how deep do you have to be? And does it apply on a by prim basis or by a by object basis?
[17:40]	Rex Cronon:	not, really. things can still be rezzed all around/over u
[17:40]	Zwagoth Klaar:	I can see abuse of this already. But anything is going to be abused if its there.
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	heh - makes me wonder why shields are so much more complex in general ;)
[17:40]	AlexanderThe Benelli:	@Sidewinder; I know the wiki page, but i cant find a page telling me -just a really simple example- things like the value of gravity (not that there would be a real need for finding "that" value, but i couldnt find a better example just right now)
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, so this feature that disables collisions between an avatar and a specific object or objects... it doesn't work well for concave objects
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	that is, objects that use the MeshShape
[17:41]	Sidewinder Linden:	ahh Alexander - let's talk offline about what you need... it may not be written yet - but i'd be happy to work with you to figure out what should be there
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	since you collide with the inside surface of MeshShapes
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	Gypsy, what is this bugged object you're talking about?
[17:41]	Zwagoth Klaar:	I always wanted llCollision filter to apply to the actual physics and not just the event.
[17:41]	Gypsy Paz:	the ladder leanin against the e-spaces sign behind you
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	What is wrong with the ladder?
[17:43]	AlexanderThe Benelli:	@Sidewinder:"talk offline"=email?
[17:43]	AlexanderThe Benelli:	use it
[17:43]	AlexanderThe Benelli:	*g*
[17:43]	Gypsy Paz:	lol froze up for a se and nded up way over there
[17:43]	AlexanderThe Benelli:	And you will see you wont get down
[17:43]	Gypsy Paz:	when I climb down and it unsits me it pushes me forward into the wall and that prushes me back up on top
[17:43]	Gypsy Paz:	watch
[17:44]	Kitto Flora:	Thats the new unsit action effect?
[17:44]	Gypsy Paz:	that just started with this last build I believe
[17:44]	Jcool410 Wildcat:	sure that isnt a movelock?
[17:44]	AlexanderThe Benelli shouts: its just putting me up there again
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	oh I see, this is the "object dismount" code that broke it.
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	Good, I've been wanting an object like that to troubleshoot
[17:44]	Renee Faulds:	freebie
[17:44]	Renee Faulds:	lol
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	OK, 'object dismount'. Its a neet idea, but is doomed to fail in some situations
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	It messes up in the front seat of the Monorail
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	Leavs the av trapped in the buffer
[17:45]	Gypsy Paz:	I posted that here hehe, in a way this bug is cool, it gives me an excuse to personaly demo the ladders to some lindens ;)
[17:46]	Gypsy Paz:	ooppss, LMAO I cant believe that was still in my clipboard ;)
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Kitto, but if I could make it give preference to the "offset position dismount trick" then it wouldn't break as much content
[17:46]	Kitto Flora:	(A clever ladder!)
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	and it could be made a bit smarter. That was the first pass.
[17:46]	Gypsy Paz:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1546
[17:46]	Gypsy Paz gave you Ladder Wood 8m lowprim.
[17:46]	Sidewinder Linden:	*wink* Gypsy... like "reply all" eh? :)
[17:46]	Sofia Westwick:	lol
[17:46]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, honestly I'd be happy with ;llPushObject() just working gain like in H!.
[17:46]	Kitto Flora:	H1
[17:47]	Gypsy Paz:	lol
[17:47]	Kitto Flora:	Then we can tune the push to the application
[17:47]	Zwagoth Klaar:	Ryozu mentioned to me that the car over there tilts to one side and stays on two wheels only if two people are sitting in it, and it tends to flip over like that.
[17:47]	Gypsy Paz:	well, I could fix the ladders if things change, but theres allot of them out there
[17:48]	Zwagoth Klaar:	seems to work fine with only one person though
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I grabbed a copy of the car. I'll try to play with it tomorrow.
[17:49]	Sofia Westwick:	what about elevators? i ended up having to take mine out of my office building because after the converation they would go up a little and fall back to the ground
[17:49]	Sofia Westwick:	they used physics to go up
[17:50]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmm have you tried the latest deploy sofia?
[17:50]	AlexanderThe Benelli:	rofl....that must be a crazy experience, especially in mouselook *g*
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	the problem with the elevators is that they no longer move up?
[17:50]	Sofia Westwick:	no I need to
[17:50]	Sidewinder Linden:	if you'd like i can put one of your regions on the beta preview so that you can check each build
[17:50]	Zwagoth Klaar:	I also noticed that spheres have a type of "magnetic" or "sticky" effect when they colide with other objects, causing them to rolling around the objects surface as if it was stuck to the outside of it. I dont think its serious issue, but it might be looked at.
[17:50]	Sofia Westwick:	yes i haven't tested since the last update i'll have to do that
[17:50]	Sofia Westwick:	but before i removed them they would go up a little and falll back down
[17:50]	Zwagoth Klaar:	its most apperent on avatars
[17:51]	Renee Faulds:	Odessa Elegent would like to go Beta is that Trav's Sofia
[17:51]	Sofia Westwick:	yes I already put in for it to be converted
[17:51]	Sidewinder Linden:	btw renee and sofia - i'm talking ab out putting it on the beta preview grid - as opposed to conveting it on the main second life system
[17:51]	Sidewinder Linden:	it's a "separate world" for testing
[17:52]	Zwagoth Klaar:	I will also pass on that Ryozu said that if you have anything that behaves oddly, stick it in that parcel over there and maybe andrew or whoever can stop by and look at them periodicly.
[17:52]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok np
[17:52]	Sofia Westwick:	okay I haven't done the beta testing just the early adopter
[17:52]	Renee Faulds:	that would be good there are tons of scripts running on Elegent
[17:53]	Renee Faulds:	very good variety of them
[17:53]	Renee Faulds:	diverse island it is
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	Alright, since the office hour is nearly over, I want to repeat: I won't be able to attend the normal hours next week, but Simon Linden will be holding hours at the same time and place.
[17:54]	Sofia Westwick:	if you could put Odessa Elegant on beta gird it would be good for performance testing
[17:54]	Simon Linden:	Hey folks, I have to run ... cleaning crew just hit the office and I'm getting gassed with chemicals, so I guess that's time to go home :)
[17:54]	Rex Cronon:	bye simon
[17:54]	Renee Faulds:	I would like to thank you all for your continue efforts to improve our experiences here
[17:55]	Simon Linden:	I'll be here next week, hopefully with others and we'll keep it going
[17:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	i would like to encourage us all to start thinking about which bugs "really have to be fixed" to be safe for a rollout, and which could be safely fixed afterwards.. :)
[17:55]	AlexanderThe Benelli:	Cu, ty for beeing here
[17:55]	Simon Linden:	THanks all!
[17:55]	Gypsy Paz:	yeah I cant wait for h4 to go mainstream ;)
[17:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	thanks alexander
[17:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	thanks everyone... see you next time
[17:55]	AlexanderThe Benelli:	Sidewinder, if u have a min *g*
[17:55]	Creem Pye:	thanks for your time
[17:55]	AlexanderThe Benelli:	=>IM
[17:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	sure
[17:55]	Creem Pye:	and you asked me to remind you about td 0
[17:56]	Sidewinder Linden:	oh creem... the 0 fps thing...
[17:56]	Zwagoth Klaar:	So andrew, is there air resistance in havok 4?
[17:56]	Sidewinder Linden:	someone handed me a supposed sim killer
[17:56]	Sidewinder Linden:	it did manage todrive fps very low
[17:56]	Sidewinder Linden:	but it didn't crash the region
[17:56]	Creem Pye:	a friend of mine made somethig like that
[17:56]	Areth Gall:	Goodluck you guys.
[17:56]	Creem Pye:	with a hundred or so toruses
[17:56]	Rex Cronon:	what is considere very low?
[17:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	i let it cook for 15 minutes really struggling, and still no crash... so the good news is that usually, even when heavily loaded, you or we will be able to get in and remove the problem content without a rollback
[17:57]	Rex Cronon:	like 9fps?
[17:57]	Zwagoth Klaar:	I need to ask somebody for something hold on
[17:57]	Zwagoth Klaar:	crashes havok 4
[17:57]	Creem Pye:	enclosed in a very tight space, like a bomb... setting them physical is a way to reboot the sim =P
[17:57]	Creem Pye:	cool
[17:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	that's part of why we're trying to see when we can roll this, because reducing the need for rollbacks also reduces content loss
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	Such a grief mode won't block Havok4 from being deployed, but it will probably get relatively quick attention after.
[17:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	can you replicate that creem?
[17:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	right
[17:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	@andrew
[17:57]	Creem Pye:	well, I have some content which could take advantage of a phantom+phys object suddenly going nonphys, but i've avoided it because it often made FPS very low
[17:58]	Creem Pye:	I can try
[17:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	well if you want to *use* the region you may not want to do that, but i'd be interested to see if it really crashes the simulator
[17:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	umm right now?
[17:58]	Creem Pye:	maybe a bad idea to have it here =)
[17:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	that's one way to kill th emeting creem... :!
[17:58]	Sofia Westwick:	when is the next betagrid test going to be done?
[17:58]	Creem Pye:	lo
[17:58]	Creem Pye:	lol
[17:59]	Creem Pye:	anwyay, just doubling the toruses until you hvae 300 or so
[17:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi sofia - the beta preview grid is kept up to date with the latest build
[17:59]	Creem Pye:	then suddenly making them all phys at once
[17:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	i can add a copy of your region to it, so that it is there with new versions
[17:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	you can then try things there without affecting your main system region
[17:59]	Creem Pye:	well the beta grid should work =)
[17:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	it copies the whole build, with permissions
[17:59]	Rex Cronon:	before u crash it, can u do a countdown from 3?
[17:59]	AlexanderThe Benelli:	lol...lets go to the neighboor sim
[17:59]	Renee Faulds:	lol, Rex
[18:00]	Gypsy Paz flees before the crash the sim
[18:00]	Sofia Westwick:	when theres a new version will there be a ntoice asi would like to add one of my troubled regions to it
[18:00]	Gypsy Paz:	lol thanks guys, l8