User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 02 28

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:03]	Suku Ming:	Howdy. I wasn't sure we were supposed to talk yet. XD
[17:03]	Sofia Westwick:	hi Andrew
[17:03]	Les White:	hiya Andrew
[17:04]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[17:04]	Suku Ming:	Hey there.
[17:04]	Yuriko Nishi:	wwwwhi
[17:04]	Kara Outlander:	Hello everyone so nice to be in presence of such smart people
[17:05]	Aybabtu Aabye:	Simon, what's your area? I can't seem to find you on the office hours list.
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	I usually come to Andrew's and hang out there ... I work with him on the havok project
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	ok, so looks like we had the update finally get deployed to SL proper today
[17:05]	Les White:	yes. been messing with it
[17:05]	Aybabtu Aabye:	havok, good
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	The only news I've heard about it is from Sidewinder, reporting that some crowded regions are indeed showing some performance improvement
[17:06]	Yuriko Nishi:	good
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	I've been working on vehicle bugs the last several days, the Dominus Shadow and Kart in particular.
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	I think I've got some decent fixes
[17:07]	Sofia Westwick:	The update also fixed the Rezzer box Issue i sent you and simon note cards about
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	so I'm going to have a "vehicle session" tonight, after this hour if anyone wants to test their *ground* vehicles on the bleeding edge
[17:08]	Aybabtu Aabye:	on tuesday, i heard you mention more testing after this meeting, can we send you some cars to test on terrain now?
[17:08]	Les White:	nice andrew
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	I'll be updating PSU CS199 on the preview in a few minutes
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	and then I'll try to open it to the public (it is normally a private estate) for the hour after this... 18:00 - 19:00 SLT
[17:09]	Les White:	it's semi private. i can flick the switch there if need be
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	Aybabtu, if you'd like to test vehicles you can bring them to the vehicle session.
[17:09]	Yuriko Nishi:	very nice, i have some issues with my bikes, if you like i can send you a box with a test bike and description of the problems later
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	Les, that would be nice if you could flip it open.
[17:10]	Aybabtu Aabye:	do you need to see a before to go with the after? a terrain track to see what theyre supposed to act like?
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	Yuriko, I'll be needing those test vehicles on the preview grid
[17:10]	Yuriko Nishi:	ok
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	I can migrate them there from this grid, but it takes a while
[17:10]	Yuriko Nishi:	ok will create one there
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	and I don't have the time to migrate some over today before the tests
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	lessee... other news...
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	there is a way to crash Havok4 regions that isn't too hard...
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	you can create a very large pile of objects in one spot and set them all dynamic at once
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	this has been used to grief some regions already
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	some of us are currently working on it
[17:11]	Simon Linden:	(like me)
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	and I hope to join that effort tomorrow
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	so hopefully we'll see some fixes around there in the NEXT update
[17:12]	Yuriko Nishi:	hi sidewinder
[17:12]	Les White:	hiya Sidewinder
[17:12]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi yuriko
[17:12]	Sidewinder Linden:	and les
[17:12]	Sidewinder Linden:	and all :)
[17:12]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i didnt follow what you were saying on the migrate thing? will you be able to test current cars on current terrain tracks?
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	Sidewinder, I announced the vehicle test session today, in PSU CS199 on the Preview
[17:13]	Sidewinder Linden:	ahh great
[17:13]	Les White:	beta grid uses a snapshot of main grid and your latest stuff might not be in it
[17:13]	Sidewinder Linden:	if we need another region on there for some sort of vehicle tests i can set that up while you're starting on psu cs199
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	Aybabtu, who was that question directed at? I don't think I understood it.
[17:13]	Aybabtu Aabye:	can we go to a live track and test?
[17:13]	Sidewinder Linden:	if you need your account updated to match current inventory i can do that as well
[17:14]	Sidewinder Linden:	but let me know now so that i can set your accounts up to refresh on login
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... me. I get it. If you give me a copy of an inventory item here, I won't necessarily have it on the preview.
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	The Preveiw uses a different database
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	so I would have to manually copy the items from this database to the other
[17:14]	Yuriko Nishi:	i can just copy paste the script to the beta grid
[17:14]	Sidewinder Linden:	yuriko - if it's in your inventory now
[17:14]	Sidewinder Linden:	i can set your account to update when you log into the beta grrid
[17:15]	Sidewinder Linden:	and then it will be there when you log in
[17:15]	Yuriko Nishi:	ok
[17:15]	Aybabtu Aabye:	whatever steps i need to take to get current cars tested on current terrain tracks, so you have an idea how they perform, thats what i want to do
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	if the items have been in your inventory for a month or longer it is probably also available in the Preview database
[17:15]	Sidewinder Linden:	aybabtu - do you have them in your inventory right now?
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	I can't recall exactly when the last sync was done on the preveiw database
[17:15]	Sidewinder Linden:	i think it's almost two months at this point
[17:15]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i do, but they wont be in there from a month back i'm afraid
[17:15]	Sidewinder Linden:	we're about to do another on monday
[17:16]	Sidewinder Linden:	that's ok i'll setyour account to update
[17:16]	Aybabtu Aabye:	ok, thank you, so when i log theyll be updated on the preview?
[17:16]	Sidewinder Linden:	yes
[17:16]	Sidewinder Linden:	all set
[17:17]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	Sorry for the loud entrance. Forgot I had that on.
[17:17]	Aybabtu Aabye:	and this preview thing, i dont think ive done this, its on H1 or H4?
[17:17]	Les White:	both and a bit of mono too :)
[17:17]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ayb: The preview grid has a mix of sims running Havok1, Havok4 and Mono
[17:17]	Aybabtu Aabye:	ok, very nice
[17:17]	Aybabtu Aabye:	are there any open terrain areas?
[17:18]	Andrew Linden bounces PSU CS199 on the preview to come up on new code
[17:18]	Yuriko Nishi:	sidewinder do you want me to give you that demo box now we talked about?
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	no, that region doesn't have much for open terrain
[17:18]	Les White:	the default linden vehicle area is there.. i think
[17:18]	Les White:	which is mostly terrain
[17:19]	Sidewinder Linden:	sure - actually if you could hand it to simon and andrew as well that would be great
[17:19]	Aybabtu Aabye:	can we take a few minutes during the test to find a live open area to test H1 on? i have a few in mind
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Yuriko, this is a sim performance problem object?
[17:19]	Sidewinder Linden:	any others who want their beta preview inventory to update to your current second life inventory for this exercise?
[17:19]	Yuriko Nishi:	ok put everything in a notecard
[17:19]	Yuriko Nishi:	yes andrew
[17:19]	Sidewinder Linden:	thanks yuriko
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	it is some kind of skirt? but not an attachment?
[17:20]	Yuriko Nishi gave you yuris boxed lag demo.
[17:20]	Yuriko Nishi:	i noticed it in a skirt, but created a simple demo for you
[17:20]	Les White:	i'm good
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	ok I'll examine it later. Thanks.
[17:20]	Yuriko Nishi:	np =)
[17:20]	Simon Linden:	Got it, thanks!
[17:21]	Les White:	i found my mass bug...makes a prim snap from 4 units to almost 2000 units as you cut it smaller. (hands it to simon)
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	ok, I don't think I have much else to announce. If anyone has something to announce then now would be a good time. Otherwise we'll just open the table to all topics.
[17:22]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	How does this work? I came here bcause there is a major Havok4 bug in vehicles. I noticed it today, though it could be older that this patch.
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	actually, I'd like a copy of that mass bug object too.
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	Cheshyr, what is the bug? Perhaps you can describe it.
[17:22]	Sofia Westwick:	only thing new I have is that the update today fixed the prefab rezzing issues
[17:22]	Les White:	i'll demo
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	I've been working on vehicles lately. I might have some updates on it.
[17:22]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	I built a new TARDIS that changes shape. Works fine in that regard.
[17:23]	Les White gave you Crazy MASS bug example.
[17:23]	Les White:	mass of 1843...
[17:23]	Aybabtu Aabye:	what can you relate to us on the vehicle library dampener strengths begin too strong in some cases, to weak in others
[17:23]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	However, after the first change, physics breaks. It can no longer steer.
[17:23]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	It does fly fine on havok1 sims, but in a Havok4 sim it refuses to turn left or right.
[17:23]	Les White:	ding!
[17:23]	Les White:	cut tube in this case
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	Cheshyr, is this a ground vehicle, hover, or other?
[17:24]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	Hover, sorry.
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	I'm unaware of that bug, so I have no news about it.
[17:24]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	Whatever is happening, occurs at the object or prim level. Simply replacing the scripts or resetting them doesn't undo the damage.
[17:24]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	I have to make fresh prims.
[17:24]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	In itself, it's not really new. Dead prims have been occuring for ages.
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	best thing would be to come to the vehicle session and drop a copy on me there
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	alternatively... if we're updating the preview database on Monday, then you can just give me a copy now and I'll have it on hand on
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	monday
[17:26]	Aybabtu Aabye:	what sort of modifications does havok let you do? or do you need to have them modify the physics engine
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	Cheshyr, you aren't using the STATUS_ROTATE_X,Y,Z FALSE feature are you?
[17:26]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	No. This is an old hovercraft script. I didn't write the flight engine.
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	Aybabtu, could you rephrase that question? I need more context.
[17:27]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	It works perfectly everywhere else though, and even in Hvaok4 until I change the size or shape fo any prim in the object. After that it breaks permanently.
[17:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sounds like another bug when updating the prim properties
[17:27]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	As I said, it's not really a new bug. Prims have been dying during prim manipulations for years.
[17:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Thanks les
[17:27]	Les White:	welcome
[17:27]	Aybabtu Aabye:	in the past youve mentioned some problems like friction, are in fact not friction but a side effect of the way the physics engine handles small scale collisions
[17:28]	Aybabtu Aabye:	is this something havok has explained or are those inner workings visible to you
[17:29]	Aybabtu Aabye:	are you able to modify things at that level, change settings, fix bugs
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	Havok4 provides lots of "hooks" for getting at the internals.
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	What I meant was... changing the coefficient of friction will not fix or alter the bug you are noticing.
[17:30]	Aybabtu Aabye:	the increase in friction, on objects travelling parallel to each other, that bug
[17:30]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	At the risk of opening a can of carnivorous worms, Havok4 is several releases old. Fixing things that they've already corrected in version 5.5 would seem to be a waste of time.
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	The source of the problem lies in how Havok's collision system modifies velocities during "fast" collisions
[17:30]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Odd, there's some multiplyer being applied erroneiously it looks like
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	by "fast" i mean fast enough to cause the objects to penetrate, though perhaps only a little bit
[17:30]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i find it occuring at speeds around 1 m/s
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Havok has a "solver"... basically a black box for us that computes the results of the collisions
[17:31]	Sidewinder Linden:	agreed cheshyr... but at the rsk of opening another can of worms... the big architectural shift was to get off of h1... from 4 to 5 or 6 ought to be easier... and will drive crash rates down which is a big win on its own :)
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	penetration resolution is built into the solver and can override the normal fricton-type collisions you're familiar with
[17:32]	Aybabtu Aabye:	and this is different from h1?
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	Havok1 did not have penetration resolution built in
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	when two objects started to penetrate Havok1 would simply disable collisions between those two objects by default.
[17:32]	Aybabtu Aabye:	is this the physical interpolation thing id heard some folks (Les) talk about?
[17:32]	Yuriko Nishi:	thats the reason why lesbikes do not crash/lag the sim now when they merge?
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	We wrote our own penetration resolution code for special cases (avatars, and against the heightfield)
[17:33]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	Is that why I can't dash through floors and ceilings anymore, but walls still work fine?
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	Not sure if this is the interpolation thing... describe your particular problem. Is it a vehicle problem?
[17:33]	Aybabtu Aabye:	by disable collisions, is this the cars fusing together we've seen in h1
[17:34]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Chesh: Noticed that too. Seems Havok4 preemptivly stops your velocity if you are already touching an object
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	Cheshyr... I didn't know you couldn't tunnel through floors anymore
[17:34]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	IE standing on the floor. If you give a little room, say a meter, it'll tunnel still
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	probably a result of reduced avatar speeds... the avatar is taller than it is wide
[17:34]	Gaius Goodliffe:	You definitely CAN tunnel through floors...
[17:35]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	I can, but with difficulty. I have to jump up a little first, and my old fast push to ground trick doesn't work at all now.
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	so it probably requires a faster speed in order to tunnel through floors and ceilings
[17:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Chesh: Does it use llSetBuoyancy?
[17:35]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	The latter is no great loss. I don't mind if it means people can't blitz me.
[17:35]	Yuriko Nishi:	oh one thing that comes to my mind now, falling speed seems to be a bit slow in h4 atm
[17:35]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	The TARDIS hoverscript? Yes.
[17:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew: not a faster speed, You can apply max force all at once and you wont' go through the floor if you're standing on it
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	Yuriko, what falling speed? Objects in general? Or avatars?
[17:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I meant the move to ground Chesh
[17:36]	Yuriko Nishi:	avatars and vehicles
[17:36]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	Oh no.
[17:36]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	Just a hard push. It does nothing in Havok4.
[17:36]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	You just sit on the prim as if nothing had happened.
[17:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	llSetBuoyancy is limited to 10 to -10 now, and avatar speed is capped at 256m/sec
[17:36]	Yuriko Nishi:	no only vehicles
[17:36]	Aybabtu Aabye:	maybe if i cover some of our experiences in h1 and what we did to deal with them, it might give you an idea where im coming from, and where my understanding of things is off
[17:37]	Les White:	vehicles have always felt like they were falling in mud when they drop
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	yes, please explain and describe
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	alternatively, you can bend my ear during the vehicle session, and show me at the same time
[17:38]	Les White:	he's got flexi ears
[17:38]	Yuriko Nishi:	:)
[17:38]	Aybabtu Aabye:	ok, i figure my story might take a few minutes, perhaps i should wait?
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	sure, we'll look at the problems in the vehicle session
[17:39]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[17:39]	Aybabtu Aabye:	the other lindens are coming as well?
[17:39]	Yuriko Nishi:	hi
[17:39]	Les White:	hiya Rex
[17:39]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi rex
[17:39]	Aybabtu Aabye:	hello rex
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	oh, another thing changed in the bleednig edge... I brought gravity back to 9.8 (from 9.81) so I expect a few drooping flight assists to work again (but haven't yet tested)
[17:39]	Rex Cronon:	hi....
[17:40]	ShadowZone Kanto:	hi
[17:40]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	Oh, I'll check that. Thanks Andy.
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	do you think that'll fix selkit's sinking floaters? :)
[17:40]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	So why did gravity change? 9.8m/s is not just a good idea. It's the law. :)
[17:40]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ah... maybe this will make neutral buoyancy possible again!
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	rofl cheshyr
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	oh, we were trying to coalesce some mismatched hard-coded values in the codebase
[17:40]	Simon Linden:	Only on earth...
[17:40]	Rex Cronon:	we should have moon gravity:)
[17:40]	Aybabtu Aabye:	les, the cars falling like they were falling in mud, some of that is the vehicle library
[17:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hell, maybe in some future Havok, we can define a point of gravitational pull instead of just down, let alone moon gravity
[17:41]	Les White:	even with linear.z friction at 1000 and - bouyance. they fall as if in water
[17:41]	Yuriko Nishi:	yes
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	llSetBuoyancy() uses the GRAVITY constant in the codebase, so it should flow with whatever we set it to.
[17:41]	Aybabtu Aabye:	right, not using the vehicle library at all helps a lot
[17:41]	Les White:	for that maybe :)
[17:42]	Simon Linden:	Ryozu - yes, that minor tweak set off a bunch of discussion in the office about various gravitational changes. _maybe_ someday...
[17:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	=D
[17:42]	Gaius Goodliffe:	llSetVehicleFloatParams(VEHICLE_BUOYANCY, 1.0) hasn't worked for a while... but that's probably different from llSetBuoyancy.
[17:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	MarioGalaxy in SL anyone?
[17:42]	Jcool410 Wildcat:	Why does a llApplyImpulse( -llGetVel() * llGetMass(),FALSE); not stop all velocity like in havok1?
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	VEHICLE_BUOYANCY doesn't work? This isn't on a "ground vehicle" is it?
[17:43]	Gaius Goodliffe:	No, on an airship. They sink when they're not supposed to. No way to keep them steady in the air.
[17:43]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The Dominus Shadow displays the same problem in hover mode...
[17:43]	Les White:	i found that was related to mass in H1. get too big and it doesnt work. smaller things fine
[17:44]	ShadowZone Kanto:	sry i cant not so good english me germany
[17:44]	ShadowZone Kanto:	;D
[17:44]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Francis mentioned it here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1567
[17:44]	Gaius Goodliffe:	All my airships display the same problem as the Shadow -- they sink to the ground as described there.
[17:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	But I haven't tested with the latest update -- maybe the gravity thing fixed it.
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	No, I wouldn't expect the GRAVITY changes to fix it.
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	Maybe I'll check on it tomorrow.
[17:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	k
[17:47]	Aybabtu Aabye:	is this a physics only session, i had a question on some sim to sim interactions, would that fall under SL architecture?
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	well, as I mentioned a few weeks ago... we think we're getting very close to "done" in Havok4. Or "done enough to foist it onto all the regions in SL proper"
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	So if you really really don't want it pushed out with the current bugs you're going to have to stay vocal and get our attention.
[17:48]	Aybabtu Aabye:	and is it going to be possible to keep a sim at H1 if things are broken enough to affect the business running on a sim?
[17:48]	Sofia Westwick:	Is it a seprate group working on Mono?
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	SL architecture in general is valid subject matter
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	No, we won't be providing Havok1 compatibility for very long, if at all, once we pull the trigger.
[17:49]	Aybabtu Aabye:	is there a way, perhaps set on the client side, to not render anything on neighboring sims
[17:50]	Les White:	i think many people would love that switch Ayb
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Aybabtu, that is possible. In fact, with the open source you could hack that in yourself.
[17:50]	Rex Cronon:	does push finally work on avatars that don't move horizontally?
[17:50]	Aybabtu Aabye:	not just not render graphically, but not get any updates
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	or someone who knows how to compile the client could do it
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	oh, no the server will send the updates
[17:50]	Yuriko Nishi:	tgat woudl help for racing
[17:50]	Aybabtu Aabye:	so wed need to get the code and distribute a custom client then?
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	the only way to reduce that effect is to pull your render distance in as short as it will go (64 meters)
[17:51]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	Or get your own sim with no neighbors. :)
[17:51]	Les White:	ftw :)
[17:51]	Yuriko Nishi:	:)
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	if you set your draw distance short, then you'll get less info from neighboring regions
[17:52]	Aybabtu Aabye:	thats the issue, high prim neighbors, making realtime interactive content nearly impossible
[17:52]	Aybabtu Aabye:	even at minimal draw distance
[17:52]	Gaius Goodliffe:	If performance is an issue, you pretty much have to get a private island anyhow.
[17:53]	Aybabtu Aabye:	and with that distance, using all the tricks i know most of the sim hosting the event doesnt render
[17:53]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	Someone lose the griefer.
[17:53]	Jcool410 Wildcat:	erm
[17:53]	Suku Ming:	Yes , that's been one reoccuring problem in our business. We have to remain on a multi-sim area, moving out would not be very good for what we're trying to do and who we're working alongside. Unfortunately some of our neighbors are a bit 'heavy' yes.
[17:53]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	Cut the cra, Shdaowzone
[17:54]	Les White:	blingtard in a car..feels like mooz o-o
[17:54]	Aybabtu Aabye:	we do the private island thing for some of our tracks, but it makes most non-island sims unusable for such content
[17:54]	Suku Ming:	Doesn't it, Les?
[17:54]	Cheshyr Pontchartrain:	Shadowzone, get out of here. NOW
[17:54]	Yuriko Nishi laughs
[17:54]	AJax Straaf:	man
[17:54]	Les White:	so, we will meet in PSU andrew? if so i'll zip there now and make sure its' all access
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	that would be great Les
[17:55]	Les White:	ok. see you's there
[17:55]	Les White:	anyone needing directions feel free to IM me on beta in 5 minutes
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, I'll be hanging out in PSU CS199 in the Preview if anyone wants to show me their bugged vehicles.
[17:55]	Aybabtu Aabye:	andrew, where can i show you how current non-vehicle library cars behave on terrain tracks
[17:55]	Les White:	unbelievable...
[17:55]	Les White:	ok. bai
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	It is running the latest bleeding edge code, so there are some vehicle fixes there
[17:56]	Sofia Westwick:	see you next week
[17:56]	Simon Linden:	Bye ... thanks everyone
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	"terrain tracks"? Aybabtu, do you mean just regular terrain? Or something else?
[17:56]	Aybabtu Aabye:	yes, running on h1
[17:56]	Suku Ming:	Linden ground on H1.
[17:56]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i need to you to see how theyre supposed to run
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	Aybabtu, probably the best thing would be to drop a copy on me in PSU CS199, and I'll try to look at it tomorrow or next week
[17:57]	Aybabtu Aabye:	on all the h4s ive been to they just nose dive, tires grabbed by the increase in effective friction
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	I can compare in H4 and H1 in my tests
[17:57]	Suku Ming:	Do you need a landmark to our H1 terrain race tracks, so that if you get a chance you can test the vehicles there, as well?
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... sounds like you aren't using any of the "ground vehicle" flags
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	I had to add special "magic" to get Havok4 to behave like Havok1
[17:58]	Aybabtu Aabye:	im getting frustrated
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	however it messes with hover vehicles and airplanes
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	so it is disabled for such vehicles
[17:58]	Aybabtu Aabye:	im trying to explain but i dont think its getting through
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	"ground vehicle flags" are like ... NO_MOTOR_UP
[17:58]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i dont use the broken vehicle library
[17:59]	Suku Ming:	Basically, what I think Ayb is trying to convey here is that Ayb and I would really like you to test our vehicles on our current tracks as well as H4, because we really want you to see how they are -supposed- to handle before you try them in h4. In h4 they are hopelessly broken.
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	ah I see... you are using what? llApplyImpulse()?
[17:59]	Aybabtu Aabye:	llSetForce
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	oh my
[17:59]	Aybabtu Aabye:	applyimpulse is broken
[17:59]	Suku Ming:	And without the scripts, our business is in pretty hot water. We run a second life racing league.
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	well, I've got an idea for a workaround
[18:00]	Aybabtu Aabye:	in that timer() loops are tied to a clients throughput time
[18:00]	Aybabtu Aabye:	so if you use apply impulse on a timer, a faster client will get more apply impulse calls
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	however I don't think I'll be able to make such ground scrapers work correctly by default in Havok4
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	ack... I think my batteries in my wireless keyboard are really going now
[18:01]	Aybabtu Aabye:	the solutions we have now work very well on h1
[18:01]	Rex Cronon:	just crashed:(
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	let's take it to the Preview.
[18:01]	Aybabtu Aabye:	ok
[18:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	andrew - is there a way to implement what they are looking for in a different way in lsl?
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	probably not sidewinder
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	LSL is run asynchronously
[18:02]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok... figured i'd ask... right
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	the physics actions get executed every timestep
[18:02]	Aybabtu Aabye:	the vehicle library is broken on so many levels, we really need less work arounds