User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 03 13

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:02]	Kitto Flora:	Hello
[17:02]	Gypsy Paz:	howdy
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	Hi
[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi......................
[17:03]	Gypsy Paz:	hehe, should I put on my xerox tag too?
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I'm going to let Sidewinder start off this hour.
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	Go sidewinder!
[17:04]	Sidewinder Linden:	heh .. oh?
[17:04]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok...
[17:04]	Sidewinder Linden:	well we're still working through quality assurance for the latest build
[17:04]	Sidewinder Linden:	it has another 13 fixes in it, if i recall correctly
[17:05]	Sidewinder Linden:	hopefully that will end up being deployed to the beta preview over the weekend, and to the early adopters early next week
[17:05]	Sidewinder Linden:	that will end up our next release candidate for the havok4 simulator
[17:05]	Tryptofaa Sands:	evening
[17:06]	Sidewinder Linden:	one thing that several folks have raised with me lately is region crossings,
[17:06]	Sidewinder Linden:	and that is not something that we've focused on for this project
[17:06]	Sidewinder Linden:	it's a somewhat bigger issue, and we've been sticking to making the havok4 simulator as compatible as possible with the existing second life simulator
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Region crossings are as bad as ever? Or region crossings are worse than before?
[17:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	some posted on the blog pointing to an older jira, saying that at around 1.18 they got worse for sailors
[17:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	although i seem to recall that they have had the same sorts of issues for a while
[17:07]	Rex Cronon:	i think sidewinder is talking about the blog comments:)
[17:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	i don't think this is about havok4 region crossings being worse
[17:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	yup
[17:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	more that ppl had hoped we'd work on that along with the havok1-havok4 update
[17:07]	Rex Cronon:	actually in h4 corssings are worse:(
[17:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmm really?
[17:08]	Sidewinder Linden:	i've done a lot of flying with aircraft, but not a lot of sailling across boundaries...
[17:08]	Sidewinder Linden:	what have you been seeing as problems rex?
[17:08]	Rex Cronon:	even walking is worse
[17:08]	Sidewinder Linden:	consistently?
[17:08]	Rex Cronon:	rubber banding
[17:08]	Rex Cronon:	yes
[17:08]	Rex Cronon:	even if the sims aren't laggy
[17:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmmm
[17:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	maybe afterwards we can do a quick demo...
[17:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	so you can show me an example... i just haven't been running into that at the level it sounds like you have
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	I've got to run at 18:00. I won't be able to stick around after this hour.
[17:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok... i'll be happy to wander with rex and whomever else to check this out
[17:10]	Rex Cronon:	here on main grid moving from one h4 to another rubberbanding takes affect
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	sorry, bad sit aiming :(
[17:10]	Rex Cronon:	happened to me to. simon:)
[17:11]	Rex Cronon:	it seemed i sat on andrews head:)
[17:11]	Gypsy Paz:	lol
[17:11]	Sidewinder Linden:	are region crossings always worse, or occasionally, or only in certain spots?
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	the delay doesn't last long, but is there, it seems always
[17:12]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	usually between 2 and 10 seconds
[17:13]	Sidewinder Linden:	wow that's a lot longer than i've seen... ok let's work this after the meeting
[17:13]	Les White:	hiyas
[17:13]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi les
[17:13]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[17:13]	Simon Linden:	Hi Les
[17:14]	Rex Cronon:	is it normal when using attchments to push yourself to only go to around 70 m high after 100 pushes at max value?
[17:14]	Sidewinder Linden:	andrew, i didn't have a lot of specific items for this meeting, other than that one - which i thought would be different ;) do you want to go through some other things?
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, more context please.
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	100 pushes from what at max value?
[17:15]	Rex Cronon:	double:)
[17:15]	Rex Cronon:	i have a something u could call a flight asist
[17:15]	Rex Cronon:	assis*
[17:15]	Rex Cronon:	assist*
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	and it seems to run out of gas?
[17:16]	Rex Cronon:	yes
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	which push feature is it using? llApplyImpulse()? Buoyancy? llMoveToTarget()?
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	llPushObject()?
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	and what is "max value"?
[17:17]	Rex Cronon:	i just tried it. i use it to force my HUDs to show up
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	100? 2^28?
[17:17]	Rex Cronon:	push object
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	There are currnently some bugs deployed where "script energy" consumption rates are wrong.
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	Those have been fixed, but will be in the next update.
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	It could be that your attachment that should normally not run out of script energy is doing so.
[17:18]	Gypsy Paz:	what about mass differences?
[17:18]	Rex Cronon:	3.402823466E+38
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	If so, the pushes it invokes get attenuated.
[17:18]	Rex Cronon:	i know is reduced, but the cut seems to be too much
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	Uh... Rex that's what you meant by "max value"?
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	ok, try it again in next update
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	I did have one item to talk about...
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	my max value=3.402823466E+38;
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	there is some content that we know will break, we understand exactly why it is breaking, and we can't fix
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	There are two examples that come to mind
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	I'm sure there are more
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	but I figured I would mention these two here...
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	(1) llTargetOmega(<0,0,0>, 0, 1)... does anyone know what that does in Havok1?
[17:21]	Les White:	not much
[17:21]	Gypsy Paz:	turns it off?
[17:21]	Les White:	wouldnt have effect i think
[17:21]	Rex Cronon:	nothing?
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	it is a null op... however it does actually create a TargetOmega action
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	but there was bugged code that caused it to do nothing
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	or consider llTargetOmega(<0,0,1>, 0, 1)
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	where the axis is non-zero
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	that is a null op in Havok1... but silently creates a do-nothing action
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	if you rez an object in Havok4 with that do-nothing action... it will now kick in and try to keep the object at zero spin velocity
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	The Havok1 code was just wrong, but now fixed, and any content that relied on that being a no-op may break.
[17:23]	Les White:	i use that in a few vehicles to force an object update on unseat to prevent the sinking in ground o-o
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	The Mocassin 1200 Jet Ski is the main thing that comes to mind -- it turns too slow in Havok4... sometimes.
[17:23]	Tryptofaa Sands:	What about the issue of child prims using targetomega causing the whole object to rotate when physical?
[17:24]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Isn't that one fixed?
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	Tryptofaa, could you elaborate on that?
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know if it is fixed or not. Anyone?
[17:25]	Tryptofaa Sands:	Hmm, I could check
[17:25]	Pandora II w/TCS: Have a nice day, Gaius Goodliffe!
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	(2) llPushObject() uses up "script energy" but as some of you may know after reading the pseudo code I posted on the wiki...
[17:26]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I'm not seeing it, but then my actual spinning prims on that are pretty small compared to the whole.
[17:26]	KFengine2-1 12.1.4 X whispers: Set to channel 1
[17:26]	KFengine2-1 12.1.4 X whispers: Reading card, please WAIT....
[17:26]	KFengine2-1 12.1.4 X whispers: Set to channel 1
[17:26]	KFengine2-1 12.1.4 Green whispers: Set to channel 1
[17:26]	KFengine2-1 12.1.4 Green whispers: No nearby track!
[17:26]	KFengine2-1 12.1.4 Green whispers: Home set
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	it's energy consumption is very sensitive to the distance between the centers of the pusher and pushee
[17:26]	KFengine2-1 12.1.4 Green whispers: Read card
[17:26]	KFengine2-1 12.1.4 Green whispers: Configured
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	so, if you have an object that barely has enough script energy to push in the first place... you may notice differences in Havok4 just because of small distance changes
[17:27]	Rex Cronon:	if my attachment pushes me i quite close
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	the "script energy" of an object is proprotional to its mass... up to some max
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	anyway... if you've got an object that runs out of energy after just one push... you should try to figure out how to give it more mass
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	if it isn't up to the max already.
[17:28]	Tryptofaa Sands:	Hmm, looks like it's fixed :)
[17:29]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Thought so. :)
[17:29]	Rex Cronon:	in h1 i get a few hundred meters up
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	I'm sure there are other examples of content that will break, that we understand but can't fix, but I can't remember them all right now.
[17:29]	Gypsy Paz:	I accually have the oppisate problem with something that only pushes a little bit on h1, but pushes me accross the sim in h4
[17:30]	Sidewinder Linden:	we'll be adding release notes so that these are documented when we get there
[17:30]	Tryptofaa Sands:	I have a question about one of those ones :)
[17:30]	Sidewinder Linden:	gypsy is that an attachment to your avatar?
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	We have Kelly Linden to thank for fixing most of TargetOmega
[17:30]	Gypsy Paz:	I think I narrowed that down to the fact that flexi prims still have full mass
[17:30]	Sidewinder Linden:	or a weapon?
[17:30]	Gypsy Paz:	no, its not an attachment
[17:30]	Gypsy Paz:	its a push on unsit
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	? Flexi prims didn't have proper mass on Havok1?
[17:31]	Gypsy Paz:	the nubmer after the / is the mass as flexi
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Gypsy Paz, it doesn't happen to be a diving board, does it?
[17:31]	Gypsy Paz:	no, its a tarzan style swinging rope I made last night
[17:31]	Simon Linden:	Gypsy - I just spent a day debugging such an object, a diving board
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	Well, we were looking at a diving board that was suffering from the same problem... but it was also a push-on-stand-up thing.
[17:32]	Simon Linden:	The distance between the object and avatar right after the unsit is very sensitive
[17:32]	Gypsy Paz:	hmm
[17:32]	Simon Linden:	It affects the push energy limits
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	but in the diving boards case... it didn't have enough mass to properly push in Havok1
[17:33]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Too bad there's still no way to set an unsit position.
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	so its energy budget was attenuating its Havok1 push
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	but in Havok4 it happened that the avatar was *closer* and used less energy
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	so the push got more effective
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	Gypsy, perhaps your tarzan rope doesn't have enough "script energy"
[17:34]	Gypsy Paz:	like the difference between a baby and superman? lol
[17:34]	Andrew Linden hates the script energy system more than ever.
[17:34]	Gypsy Paz:	well, I outputed the energy on H1, and it was at 1.0 before the push and 0 after the push
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	Unfortunately, removing the script budget would cause all sorts of stuff to break.
[17:35]	Simon Linden:	So you used it all up, and it probably limited the push to some fraction of what you requested
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	right Gypsy, so the push requires all of the object's energy
[17:35]	Rex Cronon:	we need red bull:)
[17:35]	Gypsy Paz:	yes
[17:35]	Gypsy Paz:	I accually had put put a push of <2500000,0,0>*llGetRot() to get a slight push that I wanted on H1
[17:36]	Rex Cronon:	in rl suppossed tu give u wings
[17:36]	Kitto Flora:	Thats a big push
[17:36]	Gypsy Paz:	but theres also the case of it having a flexi prim, so it has 1.2499999 more mass
[17:36]	Gypsy Paz:	well, I'm thinking the push was so hard, beacuase the rope has very little mass
[17:36]	Kitto Flora:	How man kilometers did you want to push the Av?
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	How many?
[17:37]	Gypsy Paz:	lol, about 2-3 meters
[17:37]	Gypsy Paz:	and it works very well in H1
[17:37]	Sidewinder Linden:	/rex... i just discovered that i'm going to have to run sooner than i thought... will you be around tomorrow for a bit of region crossing experimentation?
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	lessee... I don't have much stuff to announce...
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	Right now I'm working on some broken swimmer attachment, and a grief crash mode.
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... I know...
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	does anyone know much about vehicle actions on attachments? Do they work really well in Havok1? or at all?
[17:38]	Kitto Flora:	llPushObject(SitAv, <-10,20,30>, ZERO_VECTOR, TRUE); // moves the Av about 1M
[17:39]	Rex Cronon:	tomorrow ok, after 12
[17:39]	Les White:	i'm not sure
[17:39]	Rex Cronon:	qarl has his office hour at 11
[17:39]	Gypsy Paz:	well Kitto, the rope has very little mass, so that wouldn't even move the avatar on H1
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	An Av attachment with 'Vehicle Code' in it??
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	Gypsy, there was this problem with Havok1 llPushObject()... you could feed it arbitrarily large impulses and they would be attenuated by an *additive* distance^3 energy consumption term
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	but 2^28 >>> (256^3)
[17:42]	Gypsy Paz:	ok, I will experment with it more, its really a brand new problem for me
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	so you could push things arbitrarily hard from very far away
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	but I fixed that problem
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	which means just scaling the magnitude of the push doesn't scale in Havok4 like it did in Havok1
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	beyond some maximum, anyway
[17:43]	Gypsy Paz:	ok
[17:43]	Sidewinder Linden:	i have a quick question... which relates to a problem that i have not been able to reproduce
[17:43]	Sidewinder Linden:	has anyone seen a behavior where an object being rotated stops rotating after a while - on the order of 12-24 hours?
[17:43]	Sidewinder Linden:	one person reported that a set of night club spotlights would stop after a while
[17:43]	Sidewinder Linden:	and i haven't been able to reproduce it - wondering if it's seen elsewhere?
[17:43]	Gypsy Paz:	with a targetomega? that I have not noticed
[17:44]	Les White:	not I
[17:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok...
[17:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	<- feels a little better
[17:44]	Tryptofaa Sands:	I saw that twice today in an H1 sim
[17:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	but i'm not sure what could cause that
[17:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	oh!
[17:44]	Gaius Goodliffe:	client-side TargetOmega seems to randomly fail...
[17:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmmmm
[17:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok
[17:44]	Rex Cronon:	if the sim crashed, maybe
[17:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	supposedly restarting the region resolved the problem until the next hiccup
[17:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	which seemed pretty odd
[17:44]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Sometimes I show up and something isn't spining, but if I right-click edit and close, it starts up again.
[17:45]	Tryptofaa Sands:	Same
[17:45]	Rex Cronon:	.
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	oh right... yes... we've had a few bugs cleared like that...
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok thanks guys
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	Lost packet?
[17:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Could be.
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	dunno....
[17:45]	Gypsy Paz:	I have 2 more minor details I'd like to bring up
[17:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That would fit the "seems random" mode of it.
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	i was trying to check to see if this is an "everyone knows this" kind of problem, which it sounds like it isn't :)(
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	sure - go gypsy
[17:46]	Gypsy Paz:	last week I was making a horseshoe game, and when I tried it over here, they would bounce 5 times as far after landing
[17:46]	Gypsy Paz:	I have them turn non-phys after a 1 second sleep
[17:47]	Les White:	material types maybe?
[17:47]	Gypsy Paz:	they are purely physical small mass objects
[17:47]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Material: Flubber? ;)
[17:47]	Gypsy Paz:	I tried a few different materials, I was not able to get any difference, but I will experment more with that
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	well, perhaps not too suprising... but I haven't played with many small mass bouncing objects...
[17:48]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Does material type actually affect bounce?
[17:48]	Gypsy Paz:	I could probably adust it by adding some negative bouancy, the question is, do I adjust for how it behaves now, or will that still be tweaked
[17:48]	Gypsy Paz:	everyone I asked said no it doesn't ;)
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	I had to recalibrate the material friciton coefficients to recreate the Havok1 sliding behaviors as close as possible
[17:49]	Les White:	sure does in H1. not sure h4
[17:49]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Buoyancy is currently messed up.
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if I need to also tweakd the "restitution" parameters (bounciness)
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	What is wrong with Buoyancy Gaius?
[17:50]	Gaius Goodliffe:	See SVC-1567, SVC-1760, and so on...
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	Remember, that buoyancy uses "script energy" and the energy consumption rates were wrong (fixed in next update)
[17:50]	Gypsy Paz gave you Horseshoe.
[17:50]	Gaius Goodliffe:	As noted by Cubey, things with Buoyancy 1.0 still sink.
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-1567 is fixed in the next update.
[17:50]	Gaius Goodliffe:	w00t!
[17:50]	Tryptofaa Sands:	Probably not top of your concerns this but I have a question reguarding mega prims
[17:50]	Gypsy Paz:	and the other thing I wanted to ask Andrew if you still plan on tweaking the float height for vehicles or if I should adust for how it behavies now?
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	Wait on that Gypsy, until the last minute.
[17:51]	Gypsy Paz:	ok
[17:51]	Les White:	(vertical attraction could be a little stronger in vehicles too)
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	I've been meaning to revisit it, but have been buried under other stuff.
[17:51]	Gypsy Paz:	heh, totally understoon ;)
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	What is your megaprim question Tryptofaa?
[17:52]	Tryptofaa Sands:	I simulate a "suction" effect in H1 by rapidly switching a mega prim between phantom and non-phantom. This has the effect of pushing you upwards out of it, but also still allowing you to move through it. I guess due to changes in the way objects push each other out in H4, this effect no longer works. I realise this was never the most desiarable "feature" of mega prims in the first place, so would I be right to assume there's not a lot that could be done about that?
[17:52]	Les White:	o-o
[17:52]	Sidewinder Linden:	oh wow
[17:52]	Tryptofaa Sands:	typed that fast huh
[17:52]	Andrew Linden witholds his emotional outburst...
[17:52]	Les White:	hehe
[17:53]	Sidewinder Linden:	rofl
[17:53]	Sidewinder Linden:	andrew - you're a saint :)
[17:53]	Gaius Goodliffe:	No! Tell me the tornado isn't broken?!
[17:53]	Tryptofaa Sands:	lol
[17:53]	Simon Linden:	Glad my meds are working :)
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	Seriously, the Havok1 "penetration resolution" stuff was code that we wrote, and it only pushes the avatar UP
[17:53]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That's got to be the most awesome weather effect I've ever seen in SL.
[17:53]	Tryptofaa Sands:	ty Gaius
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	Havok4 has its own penetration resolution built into its solver, and it is very hard to override in fancy ways.
[17:54]	Sidewinder Linden:	so maybe the quick answer is "that's quite different now" and not defined behavior that will continue in the same fashion...
[17:54]	Tryptofaa Sands:	yeah, that's what I figured :)
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	That is, you can disable it, disable it for all objects, or just between pairs, but it is hard to wrangle it to still work but do exactly what you want.
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	so... if you were to put the avatar in a megaprim then Havok4 would normally try to find the shortest path out
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	not necessarily UP
[17:55]	Tryptofaa Sands:	I tend to just... bounce arouns a bit :)
[17:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	right - depnds on where the prim is relateive to the center fo the avatar
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	this causes some problems in Havok4... new grief modes, and new trap modes
[17:55]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Last time I tried it, it just trapped you inside. Did this change recently?
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	To solve those problems I added some special code that will disable collisions between the avatar and another object if the avatar is deep inside that other object for too long
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	where too long is something like 1 second
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	so... that suction megaprim flutter trick is not going to work in Havok4, I'm sorry to say.
[17:57]	Tryptofaa Sands:	Fair enough. I was planing to go the attachment / buoyancy route so as long as that's working my bases are covered
[17:57]	Rex Cronon:	so the megaprims will become phantome if u stay to long inside it?
[17:57]	Kitto Flora:	Cap'n the tractor beams are down.
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	One of the problems with the limitations of the Second Life feature set is that the Residents often have to get very creative to do what they want.
[17:58]	Rex Cronon:	i mean to the avatar that is inside
[17:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	or is it that we have incredibly creative residents? :))
[17:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	andthat's not a problem...
[17:58]	Tryptofaa Sands:	I'll take that as a hint Andrew and keep working at it ;)
[17:58]	Rex Cronon:	aren't u one of them?
[17:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	heh
[17:59]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hehe
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	Could be. There are definitely "bugs" in the system that get turned into "features" for very special content.
[17:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	yup
[17:59]	Gaius Goodliffe:	One man's bug is another's feature. ;)
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	Uh oh... the hour is almost over. I'm going to have to run pretty quick.
[17:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	are there any other "really important bugs" that we need to know about at the moment? (reminding all that we are getting closer to a real release, so please don't hold them in your pocket if you've got'em
[17:59]	Creem Pye curses DST for the second time this week
[18:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	heh @creem
[18:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	lol
[18:00]	Rex Cronon:	lets have a vote. which bugs become features
[18:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	i am going to have to run as well
[18:00]	Les White:	i have no big issues. could use more vertical attraction in vehicles.
[18:00]	Creem Pye:	I noticed that land_collision was behaving differently in H4 than H1 for an object (not triggering sometimes in H4 when it would in H1)
[18:00]	Kitto Flora has scripted around all odd things in trains.
[18:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	creem - is that on prims?
[18:01]	Creem Pye:	yeah
[18:01]	Creem Pye:	I haven't tested it with a wide variety of things though, and land_collision_start works fine
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	more veritcal attraction... I think I've already got a bug assigned to me about that.
[18:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	simon - would that be related to the superfloor missing collisions problem?
[18:01]	Creem Pye:	andrew, is it too weak or too strong now?
[18:01]	Les White:	yes a couple other bike makers were IM me about it. so i'm bringing it up
[18:01]	Les White:	thanks for your time today guys :)
[18:01]	Gypsy Paz:	thanks guys
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for showing up everyone.
[18:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	k thank you all too - hope to have you a new build to play with soon
[18:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	g'night
[18:02]	Tryptofaa Sands:	Yes, ty all, take care
[18:02]	Creem Pye:	bye bye
[18:02]	Kitto Flora:	Good night all
[18:02]	Les White:	night
[18:02]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody