User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 03 25

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:05]	Les White:	hiya Andrew
[11:05]	Wolfhaven Teleportation HUD v2.0 Ready
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	sorry I'm late
[11:06]	Kitto Flora is here. You may start :)
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	I was fixing bugs
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:07]	Kitto Flora was reading last weeks log
[11:07]	Alessandra Pinklady:	anoying little buggers
[11:07]	Cinthya Loveless:	So whats new Andrew :P
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect some of you saw the blog post that announced that we'd have another blog post about the eventualy deployment of Havok4 to everywhere.
[11:07]	Les White:	yes...
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Sidewinder was a little sad that such an announcement went out
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	no, the last blog i read was about the copyright
[11:07]	Les White:	not much fanfair for such an improvement. kinda stepped on his toes i'd think :)
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	since it makes it difficult for us to NOT release should we find some problem that would block it
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	however, it appears to be shaping up well and we may be able to deliver
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	like this week?
[11:08]	Cinthya Loveless:	best off to have it come properly working then fast and majyor issues
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know ecactly when, but soon
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	not this week though, I don't think we'll make it that soon
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	Maybe April 1 ?
[11:10]	Alessandra Pinklady:	lol
[11:10]	Cinthya Loveless:	In my oponion its better to be slow release and have all of the big issues fixed then a fast release and alot of problems
[11:10]	Rex Cronon:	that would be the perfect day to launc it:)
[11:10]	Rex Cronon:	launch*
[11:10]	Les White:	i'd like to see it dropped asap. i think it's vast impovement in most areas
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	(And Typo it as 'Havok 40'
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Lessee... before I get started on a revisit to megaprims... I think I just fixed SVC-1272... boats hover too low, so hopefully that will make the SL sailors happy
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	That's the balance - we've dropped the crash rate a lot, but there are still specific things to clean up
[11:11]	Les White:	like the mass bug.
[11:11]	Enrico Genosse nods.
[11:11]	Les White:	hiya Ayb
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Which "mass bug" Les?
[11:11]	Aybabtu Aabye:	howdy
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Is this the sculpty mass bug?
[11:11]	Les White:	the one you get from cut/hollow/dimple of prims
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:12]	Cinthya Loveless:	and Andrew as I keep saying everytime I see you. im still pushing for the floating avatar fix
[11:12]	Les White:	makes small prims at mass of 1000 units or more
[11:12]	Les White:	it's really screwing up some vehicles
[11:12]	Les White:	i also suspect it creates lag, though im not sure
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes Cinthya, it might be time to actually revisit that bug finally. I'm running low on the critically important ones.
[11:12]	Les White:	it was found in 4 or the car models we race (out of about 9)
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	Cinthya - the drifting?
[11:12]	Scalar Tardis:	I am worried about my projects. It seems the collision volume is .050 thicker in H4. Just filed a report over the weekend.
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	I've got that, and also some vehicles hit prim seams bad.
[11:13]	Cinthya Loveless:	That would be great Andrew
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Scalar, more context on that collision volume bug please.
[11:13]	Cinthya Loveless:	no Simon where you stand and float 0.078 meters off the fround
[11:13]	Cinthya Loveless:	and same whne walking
[11:13]	Cinthya Loveless:	when*
[11:14]	Les White:	yes. collisions seem to happen when things are very far apart
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	You don't actually mean "volume = m^3" I take it
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	Ah, right, I remember that one
[11:14]	Scalar Tardis:	I sent a demo object to you showing the problem. It's sitting in the sandbox over there.
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	but probably more like "dimensions off by 0.05 m" ?
[11:15]	Cinthya Loveless:	Im pulling up the jira its got pics of it in a h4 and none h4
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Well ok, I'll actually try to look at it later then. I get submitted buggy objects constantly and they pile up.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	I don't usually get around to them until I pick up their corresponding jira item.
[11:15]	Collision Tolerance Test Cube v3.5: 1. Enabling physics, 2. suspending in midair with llMoveToTarget, 3. locking rotation to Z axis only, 4. applying rotational force with timer. Touch to stop.
[11:15]	Collision Tolerance Test Cube v3.5: 1. Enabling physics, 2. suspending in midair with llMoveToTarget, 3. locking rotation to Z axis only, 4. applying rotational force with timer. Touch to stop.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	but perhaps it is time to clean out my inbox
[11:16]	Cinthya Loveless:	okay here is the jira http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1520
[11:16]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Nice demo!
[11:16]	Scalar Tardis:	rez that in an H1 sim and both cubes spin without colliding
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	Ah I see, these spinning objects are your demo?
[11:17]	Scalar Tardis:	yes
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	this is like show and tell:)
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, we're using explicit cylinders in Havok4, new shape
[11:17]	Scalar Tardis:	it's the best way to do it
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	so the actual triangles used for collision may be different slightly
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	What are the dimensions of that pillar?
[11:18]	Scalar Tardis:	I have not tested all objects. I intend to build several more, for cylinders, spheres, etc
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	er... no matter, I don't think our boxification code is kicking in for that pillar... it is too large on the x and y sides
[11:18]	Scalar Tardis:	X- 0.500 Y- 0.500 Z- 3.600
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, way too large
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	well, the collision tolerance still exists in Havok4 and I don't think I'll be able to tweak it just right to get 100% compatibility with Havok1
[11:20]	Scalar Tardis:	also, there's a weird one I am tryign to figure out how to test. the cubes seem to stop moving and freeze after a while, and nothing I do makes it physical again
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	we also use explicit spheres in Havok4
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	so there will be cased that collide or don't in Havok1 that will not collide, or will, in Havok4
[11:21]	Rex Cronon:	yes, i thik i saw something similar. physcal objects that can't be moved
[11:21]	Scalar Tardis:	here's a stuck cube. It's broke, I don't know what's wrong
[11:21]	Scalar Tardis:	fully physical, free to rotate, physics is ON
[11:21]	Scalar Tardis:	I even replaced the script with a different one
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	Got any ideas on that unmovable dynamic object Simon?
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	is it actually collidable?
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	u tried pushing it with scripts?
[11:22]	Scalar Tardis:	haven't tested that
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	Well, we have plenty of ways that an object might get stuck, but it's really odd that something you rez and edit stays that way
[11:22]	Les White:	boing!
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	hrm....
[11:23]	Scalar Tardis:	I believe a copy of it works normal
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	I grabbed a copy to look at later
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	was that related to the script?
[11:23]	Scalar Tardis:	yes, the copy is a normal object
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	that is, the strange velocity picked up on collision?
[11:23]	Les White:	there was a secodn prim above it you hit
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	yeah, the copy is fine
[11:24]	Scalar Tardis:	I've seen several spinning objects that spin for hours seize up
[11:24]	Scalar Tardis:	I don't know when the seize occurs. I need to write a logging program to track this
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Scalar, are these dynamic objects that sieze, or static?
[11:24]	Scalar Tardis:	they are dynamic. This WAS a spinning cube from the test you see over there.
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	i think my shield might have something to do with what happened right now
[11:24]	Scalar Tardis:	I came by one time and both cubes were froze
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Ah ok. that is a clue.
[11:25]	Rex Cronon:	since my shield refuses to rezz i don't know if i am wearing it or not:(
[11:25]	Scalar Tardis:	I can't find any hidden colliding objects so this is just unknown
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	I'd been hearing rumors about the siezing rotating objects, but thought they were static.
[11:26]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Try not. Shields grief 10 normal users for every one griefer they prevent shooting you.
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I had a topic I wanted to talk about... megaprims.
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	hopefully megap is not borked
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	As some of you may know, the plan is to clamp megaprims > 256 on a side to 256 in Havok4
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	I've been rethinking that plan, and have lost some of my resolve. I was wondering what you all thought about it.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Here's more info...
[11:27]	Cinthya Loveless:	will this help cut the problems mega prims cause down?
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	We did a scan to see how many regions are using such prims
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	and found 84 private estates using them
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	I did a spot check and found that the majority of those regions were using them for distant horizon or cloud layer visuals
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	and they were properly set phantom
[11:28]	Rex Cronon:	i don't see megap causing problems right now. have u?
[11:28]	Les White:	i use them for a smooth road. 256X256X1
[11:28]	Les White:	set solid
[11:28]	Gaius Goodliffe:	256 would still be legal..
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	right, but in your case Les the megap would not be changed in Havok4
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew - is that only megaprims > 256M ?
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Kitto
[11:29]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Can you make it so they're forced phantom? That would permit their use in the current fashion...
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	So, it turns out that the theoretical physics performance hit for a 256^3 megaprim is about the same as a 1024^3 megaprim... they both collapse the Havok4 simulation island to one
[11:30]	Rex Cronon:	u want to force all of them pahntom?
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	I say "theoretical" because I haven't actually tested for performance problems of megaprims in Havok4
[11:30]	Les White:	a 1024 mega prim would be great...we've tested making out of sim back drops, mountians, with 4 256 prims. looks cool and doesn't seem to have bad points
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	no the main thing I'm worried about is using megaprims as grief objects
[11:31]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Les: You need a 1024x1024x100 prim?
[11:31]	Aybabtu Aabye:	Andrew, any idea why occasionally, in h1 and h4 while driving on a solid mega prim, vehicles get launched millions of meters in the air?
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	if someone drops a megaprim in a region with a bunch of avatars in havok4 it won't interfere with the avatr motions... as long as the avatars are inside the megaprim
[11:31]	Cinthya Loveless:	generaly mega prims have cused collission issues when people are walking on them and bumping into them
[11:31]	Les White:	yes, assuming they will work at that size
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	they'll still hit the outside surface
[11:32]	Les White:	thanks Gaius :)
[11:32]	Gaius Goodliffe:	np :)
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	How about limit > 256 Megaprims to Isolated Island Sims?
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Aybabtu, dunno about Havok1, however in Havok4 there is some object penetration resolution code that might do that
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Another grief mode I'm worried about...
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	is dynamic megaprims. Setting one physical in any region just seems like a bad idea
[11:33]	Aybabtu Aabye:	its hard to reproduce consistently, it seems like about every 15 minutes or so of solid driving i can expect to get such a pop
[11:33]	Gaius Goodliffe:	hehe
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	of course, we could force objects above a certain size to NOT be settable dynamic
[11:34]	Cinthya Loveless:	it is andrew I've had people intentionaly take down different of my islandss with mega prims like that
[11:34]	Rex Cronon:	u don't need megaprims to grief
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	and we could force objects above some other threshold to always be phantom
[11:34]	Les White:	that would work for me Andrew
[11:34]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I think that would work. The really big ones are just used for scenery mostly anyway.
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	I'm curious to know what you all think, and what the thresholds might be
[11:34]	Aybabtu Aabye:	those sound like good limits
[11:35]	Les White:	256 for solid. 10m for physical
[11:35]	Alessandra Pinklady:	i dont llike the always be phantom part . but obejcets above a certain size not beein wearable would be great
[11:35]	Kitto Flora agrees with Les
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	I didn't state the size thresholds Aybabtu
[11:35]	Rex Cronon:	u r jocking. 10m
[11:35]	Cinthya Loveless:	yes I agree nothing over 10 meters for physics
[11:35]	Gaius Goodliffe:	10m would physical would be way too small.
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	No, there are alreayd linked sets > 10m
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	you can link up to 54 meters span in Havok4
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	using normal prims
[11:35]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	that is, 54 meters diameter for the bounding sphere
[11:35]	Les White:	maybe 256 for both limits then?
[11:36]	Cinthya Loveless:	I think talking about 10 meter prims not 10 meters total
[11:36]	Cinthya Loveless:	that would keep the mega prims from being able to do damage
[11:36]	Rex Cronon:	isn't 256 the way it is right now?
[11:36]	Gaius Goodliffe:	There's no reason prim limits should be differnt from object limits in that respect, Cynthya.
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	well... walking the entire link set to find the biggest prim doesn't really make sense
[11:36]	Gaius Goodliffe:	A 60m physical megaprim is no greater menace than a 60m object.
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	why allow two 10^3 cubes side by side to be dynamic and not a single 10x10x20?
[11:37]	Les White:	i see
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	Its a good point
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	I was thinking maybe... 54m * 2 for the max span of a dynamic object... 108 meters span
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	and maybe >256 megaprims must be phantom
[11:38]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That makes sense.
[11:38]	Enrico Genosse:	hear hear!
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	How large a physical linkset can one make at present, In meters max Diameter?
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	and then clamp the absolute size to something like 2048 or so
[11:38]	Scalar Tardis:	megaprims could trigger that server crash at sim startup where hundreds of objects are colliding, sucking up too much memory..
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	(there are a few 65km megaprims out there)
[11:39]	Cinthya Loveless:	that sounds Good Andrew
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... a megaprim collision bomb
[11:39]	Les White:	yeah. that might make everyone happy
[11:39]	Scalar Tardis:	I assume the megaprims would be killed by the goo limiter
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	no the grey goo fence only throttles event rates
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	it knows nothing about size
[11:40]	Rex Cronon:	server crash at startup can be triggered by filling the whole sime with phycs. isn't that true?
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, I"m not sure how many dynamic objects the region could handle on load
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	yes there is a problem if you put them all in one spot
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	however if they were all distributed so that they were only colliding with their nearest neighbors... it might load many more
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	but just lag once it is up
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	when u say 108m span what u mean? a bounding box that is 108x108x108?
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	no, a bounding sphere with max diameter of 108
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	that was a threshold I was thinking might be useful
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	but not sure
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	it would allow a 62^3 cube to be set dynamic
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	but not a 63^3 cube
[11:43]	Rex Cronon:	so any megaprim that doesn't fit inside the sphere, is made phantom?
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	the span would be from one corner to the opposite
[11:43]	Les White:	no, just not physical
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	no that was the threshold I was thinking about using for determining if it could go dynamic or not
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps it could just be 54 meters span
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	since that is the limit for linked normal prim object
[11:44]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It would need to be at least 60m to prevent breaking existing content.
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	how about allowing temp megaprims to become physical even a 256^3 ones?
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, there are some megaprim vehicles
[11:44]	Gaius Goodliffe points to the working blimp overhead.
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	of what use is a dynamic 256m prim?
[11:45]	Squirrel Wood:	griefer toy at most
[11:45]	Rex Cronon:	not griefing
[11:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Dynamic 256 is worthless, I should think.
[11:45]	Scalar Tardis:	a megaprim would be great for a full-size airplane body, a full-size train car..
[11:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Sim-wide elevator? Naw...
[11:46]	Aybabtu Aabye:	sim wide earthquake simulator
[11:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	hmmm
[11:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That would be kinda cool.
[11:46]	Rex Cronon:	gauis, if u can't think right now any uses for it, that doesn't make it useless
[11:46]	Les White:	every time it moved it would be in a new sim :)
[11:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Not if it moves up and down.
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	No, it only gets moved to a new region if the center goes over the boundary
[11:47]	Les White:	falling sky prim!
[11:47]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hehe
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	that's the best idea I've heard yet
[11:47]	Rex Cronon:	there are uses for temp dynamic megaprims
[11:47]	Scalar Tardis:	256 might be useful to construct special large torture shapes, cut down to 1/100th volume. except you have inside curves
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	The sky prim is falling! The sky prim is FALLING!
[11:47]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hehe
[11:47]	Scalar Tardis:	er, hate inside curves
[11:48]	Squirrel Wood:	I can guarantee you that any physical megaprims will be abused by griefers. even if its just temp prims. And the normal replicators are nasty enough already.
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	our UI and server infrastructure is not designed to handle such super-cut prims well...
[11:48]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Scripting is abused by griefers, but we don't disable scripting.
[11:49]	Rex Cronon:	how about allowing and 128m spam?
[11:49]	Cinthya Loveless:	it doesn't take but 1 big mega prim to be set to physics to crash a sim
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	a lot of logic pivots on the "geometrical center" position
[11:49]	Aybabtu Aabye:	is it something that could be toggled at the sim level? allow sim owners to decide?
[11:49]	Cinthya Loveless:	and it doesn't take long for it to do damage
[11:49]	Rex Cronon:	wrong cinthya
[11:49]	Cinthya Loveless:	no
[11:49]	Cinthya Loveless:	I've dealt with this problem in many of my islands
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Cinthya, are you talking about a Havok1 simulator, Havok4, or both?
[11:49]	Rex Cronon:	i did that and sim didn't crash
[11:49]	Cinthya Loveless:	yes havok 1
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	Eventually the UI will have to be capable of editing megaprims.
[11:49]	Scalar Tardis:	yeah well where do you draw the line? is 200m3 too big? how about 150m3?
[11:50]	Cinthya Loveless:	haven't had to deal with this issue yet in any of my H4 islands
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	cinthya, we are talking here about havok 4
[11:50]	Squirrel Wood:	500 nonphantom physical megaprims colliding with each other and anything at ground level... teh horror
[11:50]	Cinthya Loveless:	Rex I know what we're talking about
[11:50]	Simon Linden:	A large physical prim does add overhead ... it means Havok has so consider everything near it as one group. It works better with more smaller, independent groups when figuring out all the collision combinations
[11:51]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I'm liking the 128m suggestion the best. But then I like round numbers. :)
[11:51]	Enrico Genosse:	This doesn't have to be a final decision, does it? You could start with higher settings, and reduce them if they are causing trouble later, no?
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Well... megaprim policy changes could be decoupled from Havok4 and done as a separate project.
[11:51]	Rex Cronon:	u can disable physics on your land can't u?
[11:51]	Scalar Tardis:	due to the fact that mass is related to volume, and you cannot control mass independently, I'm not sure a 256x256x.1 prim could be lifted, by anything
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	However, to fix megaprrims right is a big project
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	so it would have to be broken up into incremental steps
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	a few of those steps could go out in Havok4 if they were easy
[11:52]	Cinthya Loveless:	no you can't disable physics
[11:52]	Alessandra Pinklady:	i certainly would love to disable physics on my land
[11:52]	Cinthya Loveless:	tonly by estate ttools
[11:52]	Cinthya Loveless:	for the whole sim
[11:52]	Cinthya Loveless:	then noone will be able to move
[11:53]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Avatar, you are a dynamic physical object. :)
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Cinthya, you're saying "no dynamic objects in region, except for avatars"?
[11:53]	Scalar Tardis:	well, no, people would be able to move, but they would not collide. all would be ghosts and move through anything
[11:53]	Les White:	and products wouldnt' work
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... avatars don't collide with each other is slightly distinct
[11:53]	Gaius Goodliffe:	If you mean how it currently works, last time I checked, no, you can't move at all.
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	does anyone think that is a good idea? Sounds confusing to me
[11:54]	Les White:	you can turn off collisions and physics leaves, but avs move
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	sometimes you collide, but sometimes not
[11:54]	Rex Cronon:	what is confussin
[11:54]	Rex Cronon:	?
[11:54]	Scalar Tardis:	disable physics on all objects where physics can be disabled. For all else (avatars) leave physical.
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	well, we already get bug reports about something not working, when it turns out to be a parcel setting, or an estate setting
[11:55]	Les White:	yes...
[11:55]	Cinthya Loveless:	I actually think avatars being able to run into eachother is something that should remain as people like to play running into eachother with those colliders that make you fall down and it would mess up stuffl ike hugs if avatars couldn't run into eachother and collide
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	so if avatar collidability were a per-estate or per-region setting... --> more confusion
[11:55]	Les White:	agreed
[11:55]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I'm not sure if I like the idea of the laws of physics changing on a parcel by parcel basis. region-wide might make sense in some cases...
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	I get 2 or 3 a year where someone turned off estate collisions, and wonders why vehicles dont move.
[11:55]	Les White:	yes kitto
[11:56]	Enrico Genosse:	me too with dogs
[11:56]	Scalar Tardis:	heh, just make it so when it happens, a warning appears on the client screen that cannot be disabled, so they KNOW it's an estate condition.
[11:56]	Rex Cronon:	why shouldn't somebody be able to turn physics off on their parcel?
[11:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Quick question before this is over.
[11:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Any idea when the client is going to be updated to allow the build tools over 768m?
[11:57]	Cinthya Loveless:	I really do think that avatar colision with eachother should remain unchanged as it is now
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	No I don't know where those changes are happening Gaius
[11:57]	Simon Linden:	It would also create some 'traps' - drive your physical car onto a parcel with it disabled, and you're stuck. I think it would create too much confusion with residents
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Kelly Linden would know. I'll ask him.
[11:57]	Aybabtu Aabye:	how difficult is it to allow sim to alter the strength of gravity
[11:58]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Is there some reason that check is done client side, rather than just letting the client try any value and having the server move the object within the limits?
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	The individual parcel setting for no entry, no script and such are already a BIG problem.
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	No worries, I'm not changing avatar collisions. Much of this is just brainstorming, and changes like that get much more scrutiny before they go out.
[11:58]	Enrico Genosse smiles
[11:59]	Scalar Tardis:	Gaius, I would ask if the flying height limiter is really still needed? It's back from when LL wanted people building stuff near the ground, on purpose
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	If any of you have some conclusions or opinions about what the megaprim policy changes should be, if any, please state them now and I'll consider them later today.
[11:59]	Les White:	256 max solid. 128 max physics work good for me :)
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	Aybabtu - changing the basic number is fairly easy, but doing it right - with a UI, proper permissions, notification when you enter the sim, etc. gets complicated. Not to mention the number of things that will break because they have 9.8 hard-coded in them
[11:59]	Rex Cronon:	use a 128m spam, at least
[12:00]	Enrico Genosse:	I would say decouple them from h4 as much as possible, set limits on the high side and tighten in later releases as necessary.
[12:00]	Second Life:	[ALL-CLEAR] It is now safe to transfer L$, land, and no-copy assets. Thanks for your patience this past hour!
[12:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Scalar: It's utterly pointless at this point. Except it's one of those legacy things that will probabbly linger. :p But that's unrelated to the build-height issue. I think the max build height is needed for limiting the physics simulation.
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	and allow 256 temp dynamic objects
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	ok, thanks for the input
[12:01]	Super Collider v2.1 whispers: Super Collider commands: collide on, collide off
[12:01]	Cinthya Loveless gave you Super Collider v2.1.
[12:01]	Les White:	thanks for your time Andrew
[12:01]	Scalar Tardis:	yes
[12:01]	Squirrel Wood:	Keep up the good work :)
[12:01]	Les White:	and Simon
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	Gaius - fwiw I did some flying fixes yesterday, so please check them out when we push the next version
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	andrew, there might be others that would be unhappy even with 128m spam
[12:01]	Les White:	indeed. great job so far :)
[12:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Simon: Looking forward to it. That was the last major problem preventing early adoption for me.
[12:02]	Gaius Goodliffe gets tired of being blown through the floor of his castle.
[12:02]	Scalar Tardis:	I would like more megaprims for my marble roller toys
[12:02]	Squirrel Wood:	I spy a Sidewinder ^^
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	The sinking while hovering should be better, and the rocketing down when you're high (in the air) is fixed
[12:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Excellent!
[12:03]	Les White:	hiya Sidewinder
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	Hey sidewinder, we've all decided when the Havok4 release would be.
[12:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi - sorry - tues my schedule is pretty tricky on making it here
[12:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	oh cool
[12:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	when?
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	(c'mon guys, play along with me)
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[12:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Any idea how long before that fix hits the beta grid and early adopters?
[12:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	april 1st at midnight right? :)
[12:04]	Cinthya Loveless:	This is fuloln weare it and to turn it on say collide on and when people run into you and so on you'll fall down Andrew
[12:04]	Enrico Genosse:	how did he know?
[12:04]	Les White:	do it !
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Day after tomorrow, I think ;-)
[12:04]	Rex Cronon:	right. the 1st:)
[12:04]	Sidewinder Linden:	maybe noon - we'll all wear big hats, and the version we ship will assuredly have gravity inverted
[12:04]	Sidewinder Linden:	hope your ceilings are flat :)
[12:04]	Enrico Genosse:	ha!
[12:04]	Gaius Goodliffe:	hehe
[12:04]	Les White:	yeah. turn all the sims upside down heheh
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	lol
[12:04]	Cinthya Loveless:	oops wrong
[12:04]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That'll be great for all those malls with no ceiling
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	Gaius - beta grid should have it by the end of the week
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	up/down and away
[12:04]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Thanks, Simon.
[12:04]	Sidewinder Linden:	the other day i was thinking - boy wouldn't it be funny to have an inverted gravity option :p
[12:05]	Sidewinder Linden:	on a more serious note, we do have a new build that will hopefully go to qa tomorrow and be ready for the beta grid over the weekend
[12:05]	Sidewinder Linden:	errr "Second Life Beta Preview"
[12:05]	Simon Linden:	if (date == 4/1) { invert_gravity(); }
[12:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Gravity control in the estate tools would be cool.
[12:05]	Cinthya Loveless:	yes let us float into the sky like we sometiems do when crashing
[12:05]	Rex Cronon:	would be even funnier to have multiple graivty points in same sim:)
[12:05]	Sidewinder Linden:	youch rex :)
[12:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Especailly if you could vary with altitude. (Gravity full at ground level, disappears by 1024m)
[12:05]	Sidewinder Linden:	sorry andrew - i probably deriled everything with that comment
[12:05]	Sidewinder Linden:	oops
	12:06]  Sidewinder Linden: so in all seriousness we are close... we need to see how the 1.19.2 server deploy goes this week to gauge next steps in detail
[12:06]	Rex Cronon:	would be kind of fun to play pool with avatars:)
[12:06]	Les White:	some of us caught the blog post before the edit :)
[12:06]	Les White:	look forward to it Sidewinder. great work so far
[12:06]	Sidewinder Linden:	wasn't a final date
[12:06]	Sidewinder Linden:	fwiw
[12:07]	Simon Linden:	I have to run ... thanks everyone, see you next time
[12:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	kk
[12:07]	Les White:	see you Simon
[12:07]	Squirrel Wood:	Have Fun!