User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 04 01

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[10:59]	Kitaen Koba:	Cool!!
[10:59]	Argent Stonecutter:	My new teleporters let you stick your skybox up to 4k meters... I';ma all agog to see the rollout happen.
[10:59]	Andrew Linden:	Hello.
[10:59]	Kitaen Koba:	We all need more crazy physics devices
[10:59]	Argent Stonecutter:	Greetings, program.
[10:59]	Kitaen Koba:	Hi!!
[10:59]	SSA-2051 (beta):	Have a nice day, Gaius Goodliffe!
[10:59]	Argent Stonecutter:	Yes, I'm going to have to learn all new crazy physics.
[10:59]	Andrew Linden:	ah, you're creating workarounds for the missing functionality in the SL client?
[11:00]	Argent Stonecutter:	Well, mostly llRezAtRoot()
[11:00]	Kitaen Koba:	:-)
[11:00]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, it has been a very long project.
[11:00]	Andrew Linden:	It started way back in late October 2006
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	and we thought maybe it was going to take about 2 months
[11:01]	Argent Stonecutter:	I assume that there will be a new client with a constant "768" changed to "4096" soon.
[11:01]	Les White:	hiyas
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, that client will eventually be coming out.
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	I forget what the hold-up is for it.
[11:01]	Argent Stonecutter:	But at least llSetPrimitiveParams() supports it.
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:02]	Argent Stonecutter:	Greetings, program!
[11:02]	Les White:	hiya Rex
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Hello
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	i wonder, where is h4?
[11:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	You're soaking in it. :)
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	is it still being deployed on whole grid?
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	It is all around us.
[11:02]	Argent Stonecutter:	Its all around you. Do you think that's air you're breathing?
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, there will be further rollouts today.
[11:03]	Squirrel Wood:	Boo!
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Already all the welcome areas?
[11:03]	Argent Stonecutter:	I can't wait to move my skybox up to 4 kilometers.
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	i knew that h4 is here. was for a while:)
[11:03]	Les White:	hiya Sidewinder, SImon
[11:04]	Squirrel Wood:	Yay for Havok 4 ^^
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sunrise remains too dark, on Windlight
[11:04]	Argent Stonecutter:	There.
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	So there is this new, mostly undocumented feature in Havok4. I've mentioned it here once before: what I'm calling the "bomb squad".
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	The bomb squad is an scanner that runs during a region restart
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	it sorts the objects into bins, and measures the prim density per cubic meter
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	it then keeps track of the highest density bin
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	and does further scanning if the density in that bin exceeds some trheshold
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	if it finds too many objecs in very high density bins it will delete some of them, depending on the circumstances
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway, we rolled out Havok4 to a bunch of regions yesterday, and also on Friday
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	and I've been scanning the logs for instances where the bomb squad kicks in
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	I've only found two cases so far where real (non grief) content was deleted
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	but I'm not quite sure what it was yet... I was working on that right before this meeting.
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway, the thresholds for the bomb squad will probably be adjusted in the near future, as we see what kinds of things trigger it, and as we make it more discriminating.
[11:08]	Argent Stonecutter:	Hmmm. I have a pusher I made to explore space. Lotsa prims in a small space all pushing the same avatar at once.
[11:08]	Argent Stonecutter:	But I don't think it got out.
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Eventually we'll publish the details, so content creator can steer clear of it.
[11:09]	Squirrel Wood:	One thing you *could* filter out in live mode would be objects that rapidly change their name to random upper/lower case letters and numbers. And I mean rapidly as in several times per second.
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	Argent, the thresholds are up in the 512+ range
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	depending on the type of object
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	the thresholds are lower for piles of dynamic objects
[11:09]	Argent Stonecutter:	I think the most I did was 128
[11:09]	Rex Cronon:	xsquirell that doesn't mean the object is used for griefing
[11:10]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Is this just physical objects, or any large mass of unlinked objects?
[11:10]	Argent Stonecutter:	rex: cute
[11:10]	Squirrel Wood:	Rex, spammers use that method to avoid mute
[11:10]	Simon Linden:	Squirrel - the bombsquad runs on startup, so objects aren't changing at that time
[11:10]	Argent Stonecutter:	And translators and broadcaster use that.
[11:10]	Squirrel Wood:	but not several times per second.
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	The bomb squad will also discriminate against large piles of static objects, if the piles are deep enough.
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	also scanners do that and change their names based on what they detect
[11:11]	Argent Stonecutter:	Depends on what's happening in chat.
[11:11]	Argent Stonecutter:	Hm. I'm OK then, mine's a single linkset.
[11:12]	Squirrel Wood:	Oh My.
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	I should point out, for those likely to misunderstand how the bomb squad works... large builds are most likely unaffected by it... the builds must be very concentrated -- all the prims in the the same cubic meter -- in order for it to kick in
[11:12]	Squirrel Wood:	My terraformer uses several thousand unlinked, scripted prims
[11:12]	Argent Stonecutter:	I'd be happy with an option to tell where a specific chatted message came from, but in any case spammers are not havok 4 issues.
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	squirrel, if you are teraforming a large swath of terrain then your objects are likely spread out.
[11:13]	Squirrel Wood:	not while modelling
[11:14]	Argent Stonecutter:	I did make a kind of fluid-physics experiment once, rezzed little balls in a big box.
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	? I don't quite understand Squirrel.
[11:14]	Argent Stonecutter:	But that's kind of not "real".
[11:14]	Argent Stonecutter:	Oh, like in a diorama?
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Argent, if enough balls were in the same cubic meter then yes, they might be cleaned up. But only on region restart.
[11:14]	Squirrel Wood:	behind you. that red area is where up to 4,100 prims come together
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	But... if your pile crashes the region then that would trigger a "restart".
[11:15]	Argent Stonecutter:	That's cool, in that case I'd WANT it cleaned up.
[11:15]	Les White:	it's basicaly looking for thigns that might prevent the restart then?
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	depending on the detail of your model Squirrel, it might indeed get cleaned up. I cannot say until I see a full model.
[11:16]	Squirrel Wood:	80 prims per square meter
[11:16]	Squirrel Wood:	I think that should not trigger it
[11:16]	Sidewinder Linden:	as long as no one tries to do a graveyard we'll be ok, eh?
[11:16]	Squirrel Wood:	I have yet to crash a sim with this :p
[11:16]	Sidewinder Linden:	recalling the csi "body" with 250 prims of hair and about 95 of shoes alone
[11:17]	Gaius Goodliffe:	heh
[11:17]	Argent Stonecutter:	That's in a link set, though.
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Sidewinder, but the hair and shoes were probably in different cubic meters
[11:17]	Argent Stonecutter:	Not unlinked prims.
[11:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	was that pre sculpty?
[11:17]	Sidewinder Linden:	true
[11:17]	Sidewinder Linden:	j/k anyway
[11:17]	Squirrel Wood:	Though I can force mono to a mere crawl with it :p
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	I think the problem was all teh multi-prim roses behind the avatar's head.
[11:17]	Sidewinder Linden:	ahh
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	We found one case of content that was *almost* cleaned up
[11:18]	Argent Stonecutter:	I think the lesson is "link your jewelry"
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	turns out it was a very detailed crime scene in CSINY North 1
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	No Argent, it is prim count
[11:18]	Argent Stonecutter:	Oh, I misunderstood an earlier comment.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	and the world-position of the child prims is computed, so that they are binned correctly
[11:18]	Rex Cronon:	sounds interesting. it killed the crime scene:)
[11:19]	Argent Stonecutter:	There are people using hundreds of microprims in jewelry.
[11:19]	Les White:	hiya Alisha
[11:19]	Alisha Matova:	=) hello
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	No Rex, but it almost did. It logged info about a potential problem, but it decided to NOT delete it for other reasons... details in how it decides on what to delete and what not
[11:19]	Sidewinder Linden:	@argent .. hmm
[11:19]	Sidewinder Linden:	well as long as they're worn on a "live" avatar that wouldn't be a problem
[11:19]	Argent Stonecutter:	They might lose builds they are working on.
[11:19]	Sidewinder Linden:	but displays in showrooms...
[11:20]	Argent Stonecutter:	Well, a single object is limited to 250 prims or so, right?
[11:20]	Argent Stonecutter:	They're not likely to be within a meter of each other.
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know what cases of "legit" content will be deleted as Havok4 goes out to all the regions yet.
[11:20]	Argent Stonecutter:	Except during build.
[11:20]	Sidewinder Linden:	k
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	But I'm going to be doing some scans after the fact to see what happens.
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	it doesn't apply only to dynamic objects?
[11:20]	Sidewinder Linden:	oh btw guys i'm going to have to jump in a few minutes
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	No Rex. Sufficiently deep static objects will also be cleaned up.
[11:21]	Argent Stonecutter:	OK, then I guess I should bring up my scripting issue now.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Ready Argent.
[11:21]	Argent Stonecutter:	There's a change, it seems, in the way "no script" works.
[11:21]	Argent Stonecutter:	In H1, if you're in a no-script artea, you can fly up a hundred meters and get your scripts runniing.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	You're referring to the "run no scripts" setting of parcels?
[11:21]	Argent Stonecutter:	I do that a lott after I've changed avs
[11:21]	Argent Stonecutter:	yes
[11:22]	Argent Stonecutter:	In H4 there seems to be no upper limit.
[11:22]	Gaius Goodliffe eeps.
[11:22]	Argent Stonecutter:	Which has an impact on attachments and on flying vehicles
[11:22]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That'll make flying difficult...
[11:22]	Squirrel Wood:	No script after all means no script :)
[11:22]	Argent Stonecutter:	Yes, Gaius
[11:22]	Les White:	wonder if god mode will still turn them on
[11:22]	Alisha Matova:	wasn't that put in for flying vechles?
[11:22]	Argent Stonecutter:	I can see an argument for making this change
[11:22]	Gaius Goodliffe shrugs.
[11:23]	Argent Stonecutter:	But I think it's important enough not to just have it happen accidentally\without discussion
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	I don't recall this change being deliberate, so it sounds like a bug.
[11:23]	Les White:	airplanes would stay running as the entered, wouldnt they?
[11:23]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I've mostly given up on the mainland in any case.
[11:23]	Rex Cronon:	there might be problems if static objects get cleaned. can't they be returned to owner(s)?
[11:23]	Argent Stonecutter:	Not all script in vehicles stay running.Only those that take control
[11:23]	Squirrel Wood:	before it was on par with the no entry zone which reaches up to 50m above ground level
[11:23]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok i'm going to have to go, but before i do...
[11:23]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Les: Depends on the plane I expect. Some require constant applications of impulses.
[11:23]	Sidewinder Linden:	could someone run some tests on h4 regions to see the impact?
[11:23]	Argent Stonecutter:	Flaps, particle systems, secondary rider animations, that kind of thing
[11:23]	Sidewinder Linden:	in particular the *big* question is
[11:23]	Rex Cronon:	the impact of what?
[11:23]	Sidewinder Linden:	is this a stop for rolling the rest of the grid today
[11:24]	Argent Stonecutter:	Probably not.
[11:24]	Sidewinder Linden:	the no script issue raised by argent
[11:24]	Les White:	no stoppie o-o
[11:24]	Sidewinder Linden:	hehe les
[11:24]	Argent Stonecutter:	But it shouldn't just sit there.
[11:24]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Naw, let it roll. Not a showstopper, just something to fix eventually.
[11:24]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok
[11:24]	Alisha Matova:	deffinately not a show stopper
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think it sounds like a blocker. We could probably fix and deploy it in about 1 week.
[11:24]	Sidewinder Linden:	so i have to jump, but just fyi
[11:24]	Sidewinder Linden:	it sounds like they'll do the rolling restart starting at around 5pm pst
[11:24]	Argent Stonecutter:	Like, the flaps and "contrails" in my Mehve depend on it.
[11:25]	Sidewinder Linden:	likely take 4-5 hours to complete
[11:25]	Sidewinder Linden:	i'll blog about it in a bit
[11:25]	Argent Stonecutter:	And I'm sure Gaius has content like that too.
[11:25]	Les White:	later Sidewinder. thanks!
[11:25]	Sidewinder Linden:	by tomorrow, we're live everywhere :)
[11:25]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Sidewinder, is the Early Adopter program completely over?
[11:25]	Argent Stonecutter:	It would totally trash Cubey's ornithopter
[11:25]	Sidewinder Linden:	that's a good question
[11:25]	Rex Cronon:	bye sidewinder
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Or are we deploying fixed builds to the EA before the rest?
[11:25]	Argent Stonecutter:	Later, program!
[11:25]	Sidewinder Linden:	the release folks would like to set up the beta preview to have new builds before deploy
[11:25]	Sidewinder Linden:	i'm up for suggestions
[11:25]	Sidewinder Linden:	we can do it either way
[11:26]	Sidewinder Linden:	but i have to go - sorrrry.... family commitment
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	i have a question about physical objects that don't move
[11:26]	Les White:	good idea to continue using them i think
[11:26]	Squirrel Wood:	roll some die?
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	ask rex
[11:26]	Sidewinder Linden:	i'll check in andrew a bit later today and we'll figure it out
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	how can u make them move?
[11:26]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok we'll hold the deploy group definitions for later then
[11:26]	Sidewinder Linden:	not quite sure how to manage membership on a technical level... but we'll figure something out
[11:26]	Les White:	you seen to deploy in batches now, might as well target the ones who like it :)
[11:26]	Argent Stonecutter:	Oh, what's the new opfficial way to tuen off lltargetomega on physical objects?
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I imagine a few EA participants might want to opt out of the extended program.
[11:26]	Sidewinder Linden:	see you guys - thanks for all of you help all the way along - see you thursday
[11:27]	Alisha Matova:	Thanks Side =)
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	especially those that u don't own
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	llTargetOmega(<whatever> , doesn't_mater, 0)
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	/
[11:27]	Alisha Matova:	lol andrew
[11:27]	Squirrel Wood:	put another script in those that sets it to 0 ?
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	\
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	Rex - are they not moving when the sim is heavily loaded?
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	the gain must be zero to turn off llTargetOmega()
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	even after load has passed
[11:27]	Argent Stonecutter:	OK, so it's just <0,0,0>,nonzero that changed?
[11:27]	Alisha Matova:	they do not restart after a sim reset
[11:27]	Argent Stonecutter:	Might want to update the jira to make that clear.
[11:28]	Argent Stonecutter:	It's a little confused right now.
[11:28]	Rex Cronon:	they show as physical, but can't be pushed by scripts
[11:28]	Rex Cronon:	and other physcal objects colliding with them don't move them either
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	In H1 setting llTargetOmega(<0,0,0>,0,1) would actually create a TargetOmega action under the hood... but it didn't do anything
[11:28]	Simon Linden:	To debug that, it would be great to find one on a sim ... then I could (hopefully) duplicate it on a dev machine and take a look internally at what's happening
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	because there were two distinct logic errors in the TargetOmega behavior
[11:29]	Argent Stonecutter:	Classic submarine bug
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	I think I missed Rex's question...
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	it was about some objects that don't move, but are set dynamic?
[11:29]	Rex Cronon:	right
[11:30]	Rex Cronon:	nothing moves them
[11:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sounds like llMoveToTarget behaviour
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	rex, do you know how to reliably reproduce the problem?
[11:31]	Simon Linden:	Could be, or they could be in some limbo state ... when things slow down, we're freezing dynamic objects in place. Perhaps it's not recovering and restoring them properly
[11:31]	Rex Cronon:	no, but seems to happen after lots of dynamica objects are rezzed, or it could be just after a sim restarts
[11:32]	Argent Stonecutter:	Seriously, ask your q in chat, that's what you're here for.
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	i saw it on the havok4 no damage
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	yesterday
[11:32]	Argent Stonecutter:	Bah, wrong window
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	There is some more info in the SL client CTRL+SHIFT+1 stats... has that been deployed yet Simon?
[11:32]	Simon Linden:	The server-side has been deployed, not the viewer
[11:32]	Alisha Matova:	I mentioned it to Side alreaddy, but i found an ssue with targetomega thismorning
[11:32]	Argent Stonecutter:	Will the viewer that has the H4-related updates be 1.19.3 or 1.20?
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, it may be that some of the new stats there can provide hints about what is going on there, right?
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	I'm unfamiliar with all the new stats.
[11:33]	Les White:	yay for new stats
[11:33]	Argent Stonecutter:	Yes, the more info the better.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	The new viewer would probably be 1.20.x
[11:33]	Simon Linden:	It breaks down the physics time into the step/update shapes/other phases
[11:33]	Les White:	nice
[11:34]	Rex Cronon:	what good are new stats, if u can find no explanation for them?
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	It doesn't show RCCS info?
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	RCCS = runtime collision control system
[11:34]	Simon Linden:	Also, it can show how many objects are pinned or at lower LOD, plus how much memory is allocated to physics
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	RCCS = anti-lag technology
[11:34]	Les White:	good stuff
[11:34]	Argent Stonecutter:	And fewer sim crashes should help general reliability of SL as a whole, I assume.
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	ah ok, but it doesn't yet have the nubmer of objects that have been "fixed in place" pending lag recovery?
[11:35]	Alisha Matova:	has anyone else noticed that targetomega is not working unless the said object is taken and rezzed again?
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	Yes, that's the 'pinned' object count
[11:35]	Argent Stonecutter:	I haven't noticed that, but I've seen it discussed.
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, cool simon.
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Kelly Linden will be happy to hear that Alisha.
[11:36]	Les White:	hehe
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	That isn't an april fool's joke is it?
[11:36]	Alisha Matova:	i hope you are playing one on me
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	We hope you're playing one on us :)
[11:36]	Alisha Matova:	i have 100s of windmills out there that are not spinning
[11:36]	Argent Stonecutter:	Alisha's talking about a bug where lltargetomega seems to get lost after a sim restart
[11:36]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if scripts would like a Physics_Lagged event
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	I was using sarcasm when I suggested Kelly would be happy. Actually he dreads reports such as that.
[11:37]	Alisha Matova:	heh I would too
[11:37]	Argent Stonecutter:	There's a JIRA out for it, no, Alisha?
[11:37]	Squirrel Wood:	a "sim is dieing a horribly, inhuman death" event?
[11:37]	Simon Linden:	Arawn - that's an interesting idea, but might be more general - some performance metrics exposed in LSL
[11:37]	Alisha Matova:	i just found it less than an hour ago
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	TargetOmega on static objects is a wonderful feature, and a horrible HACK that makes the code very fragile and suck in general.
[11:37]	Alisha Matova:	i will find an easy repo before reporting it
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	sim_restart and sim-left events might be reported under whatever we call the sim_died evetn
[11:38]	Argent Stonecutter:	I like targetomega on static objects. It guives me hope that we will one day be able to sit on attachments.
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Oy... sitting on attachments.
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler will soon be doing a Bobblehead Seat
[11:39]	Argent Stonecutter:	I know, you had bad experience with that, but if it was limited to one level it would be SO useful.
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	You won't be able to sit on attachments until... the simulator object code gets a major overhaul
[11:39]	Argent Stonecutter:	There's hundreds of hacks people have come up with to work around it.
[11:40]	Argent Stonecutter:	Just treat it like a vehicle, and don't even try and make the avatar's colission envelope match, stick 'em all on top of each other.
[11:40]	Alisha Matova:	Nice to see all of You =) I am going to go try to repo the targetomega issue i saw
[11:40]	Argent Stonecutter:	Later, program!
[11:40]	Les White:	see you Alisha
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Can you do that, without controlling sim restart, Alisha?
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	There is one great aspect of the lower simualtor crash rates in Havok4 that not everyone understands, so I'll mention it again...
[11:41]	Les White:	she has a psim or two she can restart :)
[11:41]	Alisha Matova:	psim or 5 =P
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	In Havok1, when the simulator crashed in physics there was practically zero hope of fixing it... nothing could fix it except an overhaul of the physics engine.
[11:41]	Argent Stonecutter:	Aha, and now we have that!
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	So lack of hope caused some apathy within the LL developer pool when it came to solving simulator crashes.
[11:41]	Les White:	Hoooo!
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	However, with the new code... if we find a crash mode it is more likely to be a *fixable* one.
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	So I expect some of the other old crash modes that have been around for a while to get fresh scrutiny.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Also... we have a new simulator crash reporter and crash statistics tool, recently built by Don Linden
[11:43]	Alisha Matova:	/*poofs*
[11:43]	Argent Stonecutter:	Any hope of some kind of volunteer access to the server code? I'm not a graphics guy but I'm a wizard with server stuff.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	And Alex Linden. That makes it much easier to scan for crash stats and get info on what crash modes are the most frequent.
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	So you should be seeing continued improvements on simulator reliability over the next few months.
[11:44]	Argent Stonecutter:	Three cheers and a tiger!
[11:44]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Tiger?
[11:44]	Gaius Goodliffe grabs a microphone.
[11:44]	Argent Stonecutter:	It's an old vaudeville line.
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Argent, I don't know about early access to simulator code, but our open source efforts are continuing
[11:45]	Argent Stonecutter:	Nod, I've sent a couple patches in.
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	and the fact that Havok has made their libs available for free (as in beer) for non-commercial use will help us a lot.
[11:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Argent, Zero's office horus are today. You can pester him about it. Rob L should be there also
[11:45]	Argent Stonecutter:	ORLY?
[11:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Really? Wow, yes that IS a big deal. :D
[11:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	??? wow H4 is now free for Joe's Garage?
[11:46]	Argent Stonecutter:	That's the intel deal then?
[11:46]	Argent Stonecutter:	Free H4 will sell more Core 2 CPUs.
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, besides general security risks inside the simulator code (which we are currently trying to move out into other service components) Havok was the big obstacle for open sourcing the SL simulator.
[11:46]	Rex Cronon:	something fishy in this sim. why am I bobing up and down?
[11:46]	Argent Stonecutter:	You're not on my screen.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know what any of the timeline is for finishing that project, however when Havok announced they'd make their API and libs available to hobbyists, that cut a large chunk of time off of the ETA.
[11:47]	Rex Cronon:	i take a few steps, than i move up and down a few centimeters
[11:47]	Argent Stonecutter:	I've seen that bobbing thing before, I think it's client side, it's happened all the way back to 1.6
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	yes Saijanai. The announcement was a few months ago.
[11:48]	Saijanai Kuhn is behidn the times.
[11:48]	Les White:	shields or something rex? anti push stuff?
[11:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so when Intel bought Havok, they made that announcement?
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... Rex. Do you have any weird attachments on?
[11:49]	Rex Cronon:	shield yes, but i have been to this sim wearing them, and this is first time i noticed that i bob up an down
[11:49]	Les White:	try detach all ftw
[11:49]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yup, probably your shield.
[11:49]	Gaius Goodliffe:	They self-grief as well as grief everyone around them trying to fly an airplane or anything...
[11:49]	Argent Stonecutter:	H4 changes the avatar's colission envelope, may make a difference.
[11:49]	Rex Cronon:	today is the first time it does this
[11:51]	Les White:	i found a couple lag generates in the form of vehicles. just two or three of these couple of examples i found will lag physFPS to half. when i set them to hover above ground it runs clean. I'm going to test it out and file a bug report
[11:51]	Les White:	this was RC3. i need to test it out more with 1.20 and try to narrow it down
[11:51]	Argent Stonecutter:	OK, deruthing isn't as broken as I thought.
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Ok Les. I think there is a known issue that vehicles are a about 2X too expensive in Havok4.
[11:51]	Argent Stonecutter:	Les: can you rebake?
[11:51]	Simon Linden:	Rex - we just changed some of the code that looks below an AV, trying to determine what surface you are on ... that may have affected it.
[11:52]	Les White:	no, we have 7 or 8 cars all with same mass and prim count
[11:52]	Les White:	all but two run clean and two run not so clean. like from 45 FPS to 25 FPS
[11:52]	Les White:	these are hover vehicles just abouve the ground
[11:53]	Argent Stonecutter:	What's the hover parameters?
[11:53]	Les White:	theuy dont touch the ground at all in use, but somehow i think they are kinda. something is making these two fry physics
[11:53]	Rex Cronon:	it does the same thing like when a non-physical object either moves or is set at same pos that i am at
[11:53]	Argent Stonecutter:	The physics collision envelope expanded slightly in H4.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Ok. Eventually when I get to that bug I'll be needing some copies of the vehicles. However, don't give them to me yet -- they'll just get lost in my inventory.
[11:53]	Les White:	right. i'll file and send you a folder with the case number
[11:53]	Argent Stonecutter:	Oh god, I hate to think what your inventory must be like.
[11:54]	Drew Dwi:	ok for 2 short q's?
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Argent, you're talking about the physics collision envelope of the avatar?
[11:54]	Squirrel Wood:	best put your vehicles in a box labelled with the jira issue number ^^
[11:54]	Argent Stonecutter:	No, I was talking about prims then.
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Oh ok.
[11:54]	Squirrel Wood:	that way they should be easy to find
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, that is true for some shapes...
[11:54]	Argent Stonecutter:	A possible explanation for the vehicle problem Les was having
[11:55]	Simon Linden:	Drew ... sure, fire away
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	in particular symmetric spheres and cylinders, which use Havok4's implicit shapes.
[11:55]	Drew Dwi:	first is, assume rolling restart is going on to deploy 1.20? and 2nd, has anyone had issues with h4 sims not returning after a restart via estate tools?
[11:55]	Les White:	it's a little complex. i'll right a report shortly
[11:56]	Simon Linden:	/
[11:56]	Simon Linden:	Yes, the roll-out is scheduled for late this afternoon PST. We haven't heard of restarts failing ... have you run into that?
[11:57]	Drew Dwi:	yea, concierge has had to restore 3 and I don't want to test because each restore takes hour to 4+ hours depending on how busy they are :X
[11:57]	Drew Dwi:	for me at least
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't heard of regions not coming back up after restart. Our DNOC team would have noticed that if so.
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	I can ask them.
[11:57]	Squirrel Wood:	region names may help`?
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	There are several possible reasons on why that would happen Drew.
[11:57]	Drew Dwi:	I just noticed a trend and remember there was office hours, so figured would drop in and see if it was known since support portal is dead
[11:57]	Simon Linden:	Was there anything unusual on the region when restarted?
[11:58]	Drew Dwi:	hmm, one had a guy stuck between two regions, he was offline but he was still there.
[11:58]	Les White:	quick follow up from last week...i found using a 256mega prim for a smooth road surface produced no noticable change in sim load. (with 15 scooters riding around)
[11:58]	Argent Stonecutter:	Andrew: by symmetric cylinders and spheres do you mean uncut/dimpled/twisted/etc or do you mean rotationally symmetric?
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	One reason is that there might not be enough Havok4 enabled hosts for all the regions to use, which is an occasional config problem that concierge and DNOC have to manage.
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	I could easily immagine this happening in the middle of a deploy.
[11:59]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Les: Cool, thanks.
[11:59]	Drew Dwi:	ah, well figure if there was an issue you'd have haerd about it so figured would ask
[11:59]	Argent Stonecutter:	Has anyone tried Beatfox Xevious windchimes in Havok 4?
[11:59]	extraxy Yoshikawa:	grr i cant tp
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	Can you send me the region name and time? I can try and bring it up in a test environment and see if it works OK or not
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, if DNOC noticed some Havok4 quirk causing regions to not come back up I'll hear about it very soon.
[12:00]	Squirrel Wood:	Argent, the chimes you cen get in Lusk ?
[12:00]	Drew Dwi:	I think the asset cluster just died D:
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	It may have also been bad luck timing with some other back-end or database problem ... it's been hightly stressed lately
[12:00]	Argent Stonecutter:	I don't know, some of my group members have them.
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	DNOC = operations support for keeping the grid running
[12:00]	Argent Stonecutter:	They used to be on sale in Taco
[12:01]	Gaius Goodliffe imagines a great castle where the flying grid-monkeys descend upon the Grid from.
[12:01]	Squirrel Wood:	there's chimes up for sale in Lusk that use whatsitcalled....
[12:01]	Les White:	[11:52] Alisha Matova: blinks, restarting my sim fixed every instance of targetomega....
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	The D stands for distributed. The monkeys come up out of the ground.
[12:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ah :D
[12:01]	Argent Stonecutter:	Ah, I knew it!
[12:02]	Argent Stonecutter:	THere's secret underground sims, where they manugacture prims!
[12:02]	Argent Stonecutter:	And they comeout in ANWR
[12:02]	Drew Dwi:	the only other thing i've noticed on the h4 sims is sometimes the bug where a object is removed but the physics engine doesn't realize it, so its there, invisible but you can't select or see it untill a restart clears it, problem is --no-- way to repro it
[12:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Negative Z! The secret is out.
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	AS a compromise, they could fly from certain southwestern Buttes.
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Ah Drew, the object still collides?
[12:02]	Creem Pye:	that sometimes happens in H1 too, Drew
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	adrew, don't u think would be idea to make a blog anouncement about the possible deletion of closely clustered static objects?
[12:02]	Drew Dwi:	yea, you bump it and wonder what you hit
[12:02]	Creem Pye:	people I nkow call them "ghost prims"
[12:02]	Squirrel Wood:	All prims start out in Prim Orientation Island where they get their prim orientation before they move out to explore the grid...
[12:03]	Drew Dwi:	yea, only way to clear them is a restart
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	andrew*
[12:03]	Les White:	that bug has been around for a long time Drew
[12:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oo I used to have a lamp in my inventory that would rez a ghost. I wonder if it's still there.
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	Ok Drew, I'll keep an eye out for that problem. We may need tighter accounting on the RigidBody's, to make sure we don't have any extra that don't have associated "objects".
[12:04]	Argent Stonecutter:	Yeh, I had a phantom horse once.
[12:04]	Drew Dwi:	ah, must have gotten lucky then only noticed it on the h4 stuff
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Ok well, I've got to head out and get some food.
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming.
[12:04]	Argent Stonecutter:	And I concur, there should be an announcement about deleting densely packed prims
[12:04]	Harleen Gretzky:	tc Andrew
[12:04]	Drew Dwi:	thanks for time
[12:04]	Argent Stonecutter:	Later, program!
[12:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've only seen a ghost prim, since H4, so it might be increased frequency, or not
[12:05]	Squirrel Wood:	Have a good day!
[12:05]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for your time and feedback - see you
[12:05]	Drew Dwi:	hard to tell because its not reproducable
[12:05]	Squirrel Wood:	And keep the good stuff rollin'
[12:05]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[12:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yeah, and hard to generalize from one or two examples.
[12:05]	Drew Dwi:	anywho lets see if we get to teleport