User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 04 15

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:05]	Kitta Gemini:	Hello Andrew
[11:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Actually, I think Andrew said they were torii
[11:05]	Heather Goodliffe:	man of the hour
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	hi
[11:05]	tx Oh:	hiho
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think thye're Toruses
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[11:05]	Burhop Piccard:	Wonder who would know?
[11:05]	Bato Brendel:	a round scupltie never rolled round it was more square
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Andrew
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	I would know.
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	What is the question?
[11:05]	Bato Brendel:	lemme check I know the answer definite cuz I put that in a jira and it was answered
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	for some reason i was sure that h4 sees sculpties as boxes
[11:06]	Gaius Goodliffe:	What's the collision shape of a sculpty?
[11:06]	Burhop Piccard:	How does havok 4 see sculpties?
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Sulpties now collide like the convex hull of a torus.
[11:06]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Is that different from Havok1?
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	They used to collide like a torus in Havok1.
[11:07]	Burhop Piccard:	I recall Qarl saying they were spheres but may remember wrong.
[11:07]	Bato Brendel:	1 sec gotta search by my name
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	But sculpties are not typically used for their collision properties, and convex shapes are cheaper.
[11:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Has anyone seen any weird flight patterns, amongst ground vehicles? http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2141
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	No, Qarl used a torus because that was the closest collision shape for the first apple sculptie he was playing with, I think.
[11:08]	Burhop Piccard:	hmmm.... so how is the convex hull determined?
[11:08]	Bato Brendel:	okay here we go
[11:08]	Wolfhaven Teleportation HUD v3.0 is Ready
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Weird flight patterns Arawn? Could you elaborate on that?
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	Finally
[11:08]	Heather Goodliffe:	I was wondering if there wa ssome place to get some ETA on various bugs being fixed?
[11:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	My Fast Hobo Train gets sucked up off roadways.
[11:09]	Bato Brendel:	It acts like a prim of type "sphere" with the same dimensions as the sculpt. So it's closer to an ellipsoid in shape. As well, in havok 1 (the current physics system), all round prims are faceted like you describe
[11:09]	Heather Goodliffe:	a lot of people are asking me when things will be fixed, and I need to decide if I need to fix things now, or if I can wait for LL
[11:09]	Gellan Glenelg:	hi
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	Same here
[11:09]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	Ok Heather, this is the right place for those questions.
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	Is it time to write off ans script around the H4 problems?
[11:10]	Heather Goodliffe:	also, if there are bugs that are not going to be fixed for some reason or another
[11:10]	Heather Goodliffe:	those specifically people can focus on fixing from their end
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, perhaps you can give me a copy of your bugged train.
[11:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Bato is already re-railing the Mocha Purple Line, and Moles will have to be similarly enfranchisd
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	I'm trying to get started working on the "some vehicles hit prim seams bad" bug today
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	but I've been sidetracked so far.
[11:10]	Arawn Spitteler gave you Fast Hobo Train (drivable on tracks) V2.2.
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Lemme make a quick summary of where the next update is...
[11:11]	Bato Brendel:	yeah if its a 'rail guided' vechicle the prim seam problem is the issue and we got a work around for it
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	We had intentions of rolling Havok4 bug fixes once a week after it was deployed everywhere
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	however... turns out we were unable to deliver on that
[11:12]	tx Oh:	i have a avatar catapult (made for a customer) and it has trouble now when the avatar gets released from the plate. the result is varies a lot.
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	mostly because SL is suffering from some other scaling problems right now...
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	the database is under extreme load, so emergency fixes for that are getting shoved into our Havok4 patch efforts and are delaying out updates
[11:13]	Bato Brendel:	thats understandable
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Last week's update should hopefully start getting deployed this week (starting tomorrow (Wed))
[11:13]	Heather Goodliffe:	sounds like trouble
[11:13]	Heather Goodliffe:	yay for that :) is there a change log for that somewhere?
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	We also have some more bug fixes that are ready to go into QA, hopefully that will start by the end of today
[11:14]	Bato Brendel:	its in the blog heather whats on the plate for the update
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	and the resulting update would go out next week
[11:14]	Heather Goodliffe:	the blog seemed short on detials, but perhaps I missed something?
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	has anybody noticed that in h4 if u r inside an objects u can't sit on other objects? Also, u can't click even on your attachments. I mean right click on them and choose touch from the pie menu:(
[11:14]	Bato Brendel:	can you tell us andrew what is in Q&A so we know we shouldnt be trying to get a workaround and see if it might fix it for next week if it passes q&a?
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	the llTargetOmega() bug is not fixed yet. We had a hopeful fix checked in last night, but preliminary QA suggests that it is not a complete fix but may help in some cases.
[11:15]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Sure, I'll try to list what is about to go into QA...
[11:15]	JayR Cela:	ok that is the rotation script problem ??
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler noticed an Omega Bork fixing itself, last night
[11:16]	Bato Brendel:	this also would let us know waht we should go into the beta to help yas on Q&A as well if those patchs are being put in there
[11:16]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I've noted there are several different problems with llTargetOmega, so no one fix is likely to make it all right again.
[11:16]	tx Oh:	the llTargetOmega bug is also a client issue (on non-physical prims)
[11:16]	JayR Cela:	that is an odd problem because it seems to come and go for no aparrent reasons
[11:16]	Gellan Glenelg:	yes JayR - Omega = Rotation
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	We *think* that the llTargetOmega() bug is caused by a "selection bit leak"
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	where objects end up selected and never get deselected
[11:16]	JayR Cela:	is that leak on the client side ?
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	there is sanity code in place for clearing the selection bits
[11:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sanitary Code?
[11:17]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ah! I've been seeing that the About Land dialog a lot lately, too. Way too many thing marked selected/sat on.
[11:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's the object being selected for?
[11:17]	Gellan Glenelg:	no - dirty code ;P
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	however it may be that the bug is somehow preventing that sanity code from kicking in, or sometimes it kicks in and eventually saves a stuck llTargetOmega object
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	sanity code -- prevents insanity
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	that's the idea anyway
[11:18]	Bato Brendel:	dont matter if you click an object that has a client side rotation it will stop rotation so hes basically saying somehow this is getting stuck like you still are
[11:18]	Simon Linden:	fwiw I did some low-level debugging and believe we confirmed the target omega issue is server side - it tells the clients the object is NOT rotating when it should be.
[11:18]	tx Oh:	andrew, i added a video on SVC-1910 (llTargetOmega)
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	ok... lesse...
[11:18]	JayR Cela:	so in other words it sometimes goes out of bounds / with no cleanup routine to adequately catch the problem ?
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	So some sanity code does make it into the system..
[11:18]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Sanity code: I know this particular state should never occur, but let's check and handle it anyway. :)
[11:18]	Simon Linden:	yes - it thinks things are selected when the AV has gone away, or some similar situation
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	some fixed bugs about to go into QA are: SVC-1987 -- severe camera hunting bug
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-1952 llSetLinkPrimitiveParams PRIM_POSITION on avatars is not working
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-2113 top colliders is broken
[11:19]	JayR Cela:	I have noticed some very odd camera behavior recently
[11:19]	Heather Goodliffe:	is any ETA perhaps on when you guys plan to focus on vehicle issues?
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-1951 llGroundRepel appears to be ineffective
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	and maybe some partial relief for the llTargetOmega bug... (SVC-1910 I thin)
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	there are a few other bugs I see here that don't have SVC- equivalents...
[11:21]	Bato Brendel:	btw andrew I do have some 'info' on the seam bump problem that might help yas find a cause/solution
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	there is a fixed bug about some house that was going collisionless...
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	turns out it had llVolumeDetect() turned on from an old script, but was scriptless
[11:22]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Does anyone know, is there a JIRA for the extra collisions in Havok4? I'm seeing impossible collisions I never saw before. For example, a jumping up and down on the floor can trigger collisions on things on the other side of the floor, collisions that never happened under Havok1.
[11:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	JayR - are you talking about the camera shutter?
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	that's about it that I see here
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	As to the question about vehicles...
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	Gaius - I haven't heard of that one, it would be good to file a report
[11:22]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Roger that.
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	Giaus - that seems related to the colission problems I am getting
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	I'm about to start working on the "vehicles hit prim seams" bug again
[11:22]	Heather Goodliffe:	yeah, I've definately noticed the AV seems to trigger collissions from things much further away from the AV than it did under HAvok 1
[11:22]	JayR Cela:	Kooky / yes / sometimes the camera just seems to go- in- and-out repeditly - several times
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	what bugs were you asking about specifically Heather?
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	I suspect that will really depend on the build in question, so please add some objects or landmarks so we can reproduce it
[11:23]	Heather Goodliffe:	vehicles sinking, vehicles not responding to ApplyImpulse, vehicles not turning as well
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	I may have missed some questions in the chat backlog. You'll just have to re-ask later in the hour.
[11:23]	Bato Brendel:	okay well like I said I found some interesting info on them. as well did ZATZAi Asturias
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Heather, I'll be needing some copies of bugged vehicles to play with when I try to fix those bugs.
[11:24]	Bato Brendel:	yeah simon I got a live running demo of the seam bug
[11:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	JayR - yes, that is annoying.
[11:24]	JayR Cela:	heather / not only vehicle sinking / even the avatar floating above water gradually sinks as well
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Perhaps after this hour we could go somewhere where you could demo them
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	and I could grab copies for my testing/debugging efforts.
[11:24]	Bato Brendel:	well andrew on them vechicles I can give you 2 perfect examples
[11:24]	Heather Goodliffe:	Andrew, some of the bugs are hard to see if you aren't more familiar with how they worked under Havok1
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	I did some research on Vehicles sinking - have some info on the likely cause.
[11:24]	Heather Goodliffe:	I can definately send you copies
[11:24]	tx Oh:	i have a avatar catapult (made for a customer) and it has trouble now when the avatar gets released from the plate. the result is varies a lot. sometimes the avatar just drops to the floor, distances are unpredictable
[11:25]	Heather Goodliffe:	might be nice to have some place with a havok 1 sandbox next to a havok 4 sandbox
[11:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	JayR- Avatar floating period sinks, not just above water
[11:25]	Heather Goodliffe:	... with water :)
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Well, if they are hard to see I'm really going to need those demo bugged vehicles.
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	We know about the flying/sinking issues- it's been on the back-burner as it's annoying vs. something badly broken
[11:25]	Bato Brendel:	1 jumps on seams but turns fine, the other dont jump on seams but doesnt turn
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	There are some Haovk1 regions in the Beta grid
[11:25]	Heather Goodliffe:	simon, something you guys are planning on fixing then?
[11:25]	Bato Brendel:	oh there is?
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps we should go there to check out bad vehicles?
[11:25]	JayR Cela:	Kooky / I have generally only noticed this problem above water
[11:25]	Heather Goodliffe:	I imagine a lot of people are building stuff now that will then hover over water once it's fixed
[11:25]	tx Oh:	i guess the mono regions still h1
[11:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	JayR - I guess I should mean, above open water, or above the sim water level?
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	Heather - yes, definitely. It annoys us as well :)
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, after this hour I'll go directly to the Beta grid (ADITI) region "Fame Havok1" and we can play with vehicles
[11:26]	Heather Goodliffe:	non-mono havok 1 regions?
[11:26]	JayR Cela:	Kooky / yes
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	and I'll take copies for testing
[11:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	that was an either or, not a yes no
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	whoever wants to come is welcome
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	has anybody noticed that in h4 if u r inside an objects u can't sit on other objects? Also, u can't click even on your attachments. I mean right click on them and choose touch from the pie menu:(
[11:26]	Heather Goodliffe:	need some water space :)
[11:26]	Bato Brendel:	no far as I know h4 is on the beta Im guessing andrew set up a H1 to do comparisions which is a great idea.
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	This little "vehicle session" will last at least half an hour, but no more than one hour.
[11:26]	Bato Brendel:	there is plenty of water on beta heather
[11:26]	Bato Brendel:	5 sims
[11:27]	Heather Goodliffe:	awesome :)
[11:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	I can come, I have a vehicle.
[11:27]	Kitto Flora:	Rex - the first part, I observe that is not the case
[11:27]	tx Oh:	can we test non-vehicles as well?
[11:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	Oh, has anyone noticed any sudden stops when flying?
[11:27]	Bato Brendel:	go to Bismarck Sea
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	yes tx, bugged objects in general are ok
[11:27]	Bato Brendel:	yes kooky that is reported by me
[11:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	I don't know if its my flight script or not, but if I fly up/down, I'll coast for a second then "snap" to a stop
[11:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok Bato
[11:28]	Bato Brendel:	oh wait nvm thats avatar thought you mean vechicles
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	my experience has been that one hour is not enough for these "vehicle sessions"
[11:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	No
[11:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	Just me flying it happens to
[11:28]	Bato Brendel:	well andrew I'll be there
[11:28]	Kitto Flora:	Kooky - that sounds like packet loss. or delayed packets
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	however, I'll have to go get some food soonish after this meeting
[11:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	Kitto - thsi is been going multiple days
[11:28]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Kooky -- I've noticed that if you aren't moving beyond a particular speed, the system really want to stop you.
[11:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	and its not a snap-back to a previous spot
[11:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	its just coasting at a decent speed, slowing down then its like I collide with an invisible wall
[11:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	Gaius - That sounds like it would do it.. which is interesting when you combine that with the "subtle drift down"
[11:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	you would think it would prevent that
[11:29]	Gaius Goodliffe:	So, it's like you're sticky trying to get moving, then suddently break free, and yeah, as you slow down, you reach a point wherre you suddently stop instead of decelerate gently.
[11:29]	Bato Brendel:	that could be TD/FPS issue as well
[11:30]	Bato Brendel:	make sure you are watching the sim stats when that happens
[11:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	Except the sim I'm on isn't sufferring from TD all the time.
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Gaius, and Kooky, you're talking about flight assist attachments? Or vehicle attachments?
[11:30]	Simon Linden:	Kooky - that 'snap stop' may be some of the code that's trying to stop you and prevent that sinking. Can you file a JIRA and let us know how to get the flight assist object?
[11:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	its constant reproducable
[11:30]	Gaius Goodliffe:	This is under flight assist for me.
[11:30]	Gaius Goodliffe:	And yeah, it's utterly unrelated to lag.
[11:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	Does that work? :)
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I'm sure I missed some questions back there. If your questions weren't answered you'll have to ask again.
[11:31]	Squirrel Wood:	snap-stop using a flight assist may be that said script has a built in movelock and uses llMoveToTarget
[11:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	Squirrel - never happened on H1
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	should i try asking my question again?
[11:32]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I wrote the flight assist in question -- I know it has nothing like that.
[11:32]	Gaius Goodliffe:	(At least in my cass.)
[11:32]	tx Oh:	i better show you the bug in beta grid, it's hard to explain..
[11:32]	Gaius Goodliffe:	*case
[11:32]	Bato Brendel:	well here is one, did the cause of hovering avatars stopping vechicles get found?
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	yes Rex, keep asking that question.
[11:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	((Brb, I'm going to fly up and back for a reprop
[11:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	repro
[11:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	))
[11:32]	tx Oh:	shall i give you the troubling object?
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	About this Collision with objects behind other objects - is that now a recognized problem?
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	No Bato, I haven't been able to work on the "avatars stop moving vehicles" bug yet.
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	has anybody noticed that in h4 if u r inside an objects u can't sit on other objects? Also, u can't click even on your attachments. I mean right click on them and choose touch from the pie menu:(
[11:33]	Bato Brendel:	k ty
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	the benefits of copy/paste:)
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, collision with objects behind other objects? Could you elaborate?
[11:33]	Simon Linden:	Possibly - the main problem with flight is there are too many things trying to push the AV around, so it's gotten complicated trying to get buoyancy, pushes, impulses, etc all to play nice together
[11:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	180m is the magic number
[11:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	Once I hit 180, I start stopping hard
[11:33]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Andrew: I mentioned that one earlier myself. I'm seeing impossible collisions I never said before. For example, a jumping up and down on the floor can trigger collisions on things on the other side of the floor, collisions that never happened under Havok1.
[11:34]	Gaius Goodliffe:	*never saw before, that is
[11:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	below 180, I coast to a stop
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	are these other objects near the avatar at all? or are they very far away?
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: the collision_start() event is raised for when a cut prim 'hits' not only the closest object, but also an object that is further away - at least 0.15M away.
[11:34]	Gaius Goodliffe:	They're nearby, but not any nearer than they were under Havok1. :)
[11:34]	Squirrel Wood:	180m is the *magic border* for unassisted flight?
[11:34]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Previously, the thickness of the floor was sufficient to prevent collision.
[11:35]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: Also aparently for an Av too
[11:35]	Burhop Piccard:	(hmmm... if there is no avatar there, they work OK ? :-) )
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I think I know why that happens in Havok4
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if there is a way to fix it.
[11:35]	Kooky Jetaime:	there are no llSet* except for Text and Force in my script
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	that is, the "collision behind other objects" problem
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	I hope there is cause I cant see a way to script around it
[11:36]	Squirrel Wood:	didn't you mention that the collision distance between objects was bigger than the 0.1m in H1 ?
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Anybody have a demo object for that bug?
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	I have customers rebuilding wholesale to get rid of all the extra colission messages
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	We'll be needing one.
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew I can probably make one from a stripped down steam train
[11:37]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I can dig up a SLURL after the meeting for it.
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	Havok4 keeps collision info around, even when the objects are not quite colliding.
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	They use this "contact coherency" to speed up their physics engine
[11:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	Squirrel - unassisted celing is 166m
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	it must be that some of these not quite collisions are showing up in our LSL collision handler code.
[11:38]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That would make sense.
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	a very simple repro object would be very handy for trying to solve that bug
[11:38]	Squirrel Wood:	mayhaps some code evaluates them as collisions that are extremely likely to happen next?
[11:38]	Heather Goodliffe:	that would make sense with other things I've been seeing
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	or, a simple script and instructions on how to build the buggy objects
[11:39]	Squirrel Wood:	some predicion algorithm
[11:39]	Heather Goodliffe:	especially with AVs
[11:39]	Kitto Flora:	Did anyone enter an 'excess colission' bug in Jira?
[11:40]	Rex Cronon:	is this a crash?
[11:40]	Heather Goodliffe:	I think people have posted it in various forms
[11:40]	Bato Brendel:	anticipation of a collision in a virtual world isnt reliable as lag/packet loss etc is allways a problem
[11:40]	Simon Linden:	We also have code to filter the collisions from Havok and throttle the amount of LSL collision events - there are thousands more havok collisions than the LSL calls, but it needs to get the start/collision/end events right
[11:40]	Heather Goodliffe:	might be good to post an umbrella issue
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Well, before the hour is up I wanted to ask...
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	What do you all think about linkability limits, in general.
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Should there be linkability limits? Or none at all?
[11:41]	Rex Cronon:	not so good:(
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	should two 1cm cubes be linkable at 256 meters?
[11:41]	Gellan Glenelg:	distance limits? or numbers of prims?
[11:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	((Nevermind about the snap stops, it appears that if turn off hovermode in this thing, it stops so it might be a script issue.
[11:41]	Bato Brendel:	now that it goes up to about 54m I love it
[11:41]	Bato Brendel:	nope
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	distance limits first
[11:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	Distance limits, yes
[11:42]	Bato Brendel:	because you couldnt even see a 1m prim that is 256m away
[11:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	Is there a reason to link 2 1cm cubes over 256m?
[11:42]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Sometimes
[11:42]	Bato Brendel:	sure kooky, interprim coms is 1 thing
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	u can see it at 256
[11:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[11:42]	Bato Brendel:	detection.... etc
[11:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	that does makes sense
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is there a risk of doing so by accident?
[11:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	but
[11:42]	Bato Brendel:	no you cant rez
[11:42]	Bato Brendel:	LOD would cut it off
[11:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	How would you see them that far apart.
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	Put another way... what should the linkability limit be for two 1cm cubes?
[11:42]	Squirrel Wood:	I think linkability limits should be dynamic.... if you work on small objects they can be much stricter whereas when you work with huge prims the constrictions should be losened somewhat?
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	What should it be for two 0.5m cubes?
[11:43]	Rex Cronon:	128m?
[11:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	I think I like the current design
[11:43]	Bato Brendel:	LOD draw distance for prim size
[11:43]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I don't see why it should be any smaller than two 10m cubes.
[11:43]	Rex Cronon:	i think 128 should be for any prim size
[11:43]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It's bloody annoying and unpredictable what will and won't link right now.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	128 meters between centers?
[11:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	I linked some prims and didn't have an issue
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	or 128 meter limit on span of objectg?
[11:43]	Rex Cronon:	yes
[11:43]	Bato Brendel:	well I agree Rex I personally hate the LOD cutoff now.
[11:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	Andrew - is there any way to do a radius display in the client?
[11:44]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Object center makes it easier when building.
[11:44]	Bato Brendel:	yes koogy
[11:44]	Squirrel Wood:	Mayhaps a *visual* clue when selecting a number of prims would help?
[11:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	Similar to "Show Light Radius for Selection"
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, it is theoretically possible Kooky.
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	Lod cutoff is a pain - keep loosing markers :(
[11:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	That way we can see before we do it
[11:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	I've noticed that draw distance in the 1.19 sucks
[11:44]	Bato Brendel:	heh thats exactly what I use kooky
[11:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	because as my camera moves, I'm getting stuff disapearing that never used to
[11:44]	Bato Brendel nods
[11:45]	Squirrel Wood:	Like, assume the last selected prim is the root prim and then shade the selected prims based on whether they are within limits or not?
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	But providing visual feedback for linkability... that still doesn't quite answer the "Should there be a limit at all?" question.
[11:45]	Heather Goodliffe:	increasing linkability limits would probably help cut down on prims for somethings
[11:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	Andrew, yes
[11:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yeah, I REALLY REALLY wish the client had some "ultra" graphics setting that actually did get rid of all those performance optimizations like making things disappear at a distance.
[11:45]	Rex Cronon:	i think i might have a better rule for linking objects
[11:45]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if an LoD over-ride would be useful
[11:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	otherwise people will start making linksets bigger than a sim
[11:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	talk about griefing opporunities
[11:45]	Heather Goodliffe:	increasing them I mean
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Although, visual feedback would reduce the apparent mystery as to where the linkability for any two objects stops.
[11:45]	Bato Brendel:	yes andrew I say it should be based on the LOD draw ability, similiar to what it is now, the small the prim the small the size.
[11:46]	Kooky Jetaime:	I say a good limit would be 128m
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Gaius, be careful what you wish for.
[11:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	hehe
[11:46]	Kooky Jetaime:	that would cover almost any house or building
[11:46]	Rex Cronon:	make that and group of objects can be linked if the distance between eny of the objects is at least 10 m
[11:46]	Squirrel Wood:	Yes. When working on jewellry it is unlikely that you want to link it to a prim 30m away
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	An unprotected FPS on the client could put you in a zone where your FPS is 10 seconds.
[11:46]	Squirrel Wood:	on the other hand if you build a large house you may want to have it link in one piece
[11:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	Andrew - does the client have any indication of distance, or is it all server side?
[11:47]	Bato Brendel:	yeah kooky and I could grief you with 255 prims linked that are just .01m round and physical all linked together stopping you from moving pretty much a 1/4 of a sim. and you couldnt see them probally not a good idea that big.
[11:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	Perhaps a client option that lets you set your desired link distance?
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Kooky, the linkability stuff is done server side, however the client could compute the same info and display it.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	ATM the client does not.
[11:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	if your working on jewelery, don't link anything further than .5m away
[11:47]	Heather Goodliffe:	might be good to focus on bug fixes for now and hold off on changing the link limits ;)
[11:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	if your owkring on a house, nothing over 30m away
[11:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	of course there would still be server hard limits.
[11:48]	Heather Goodliffe:	speaking of which, before the hour is up also, how are you guys currently prioritizing these bugs? by JIRA votes? potential difficulty of the solution?
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	have u ever seen a sky-scraper kooky?
[11:48]	Kooky Jetaime:	Second, fix bugs, then play with linkability.
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I was just asking. And wanted to measure the "Resident temperature" on the topic, before the hour was up.
[11:48]	Bato Brendel:	I think the link code now is pretty good honestly its based on size.
[11:48]	Kooky Jetaime:	rex, skyscrapers exist with 36m limits too
[11:48]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Unfortunately not as single objects.
[11:49]	Kooky Jetaime:	Gaius, no.. but they do exist..
[11:49]	Rex Cronon:	really, so how r u going to link the basement and the roof, if there is a distance of over 500m between them?
[11:49]	Kooky Jetaime:	no one rule will fix "every" object
[11:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	An elevator might have lots of little buttons
[11:49]	Kooky Jetaime:	the key is a balance between useability and necessity
[11:49]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Link limits don't prevent people from building 128m airships, for example. They just create a huge amount of unnecessary lag when we try to fly them (as 12 independent objects insteaed of one).
[11:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	Talk about the sim crossing nightmare Gaius
[11:50]	Simon Linden:	Heather - there's no strict formula, but we try to balance the damage the bug has, how much attention it's getting from residents (votes and complaints) and how hard it is to fix
[11:50]	Bato Brendel:	thats cus people use a dampen script inside of a 'wear' prim
[11:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	some things are just not ready for SL yet
[11:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	128m airships actually flying are one of them
[11:50]	Bato Brendel:	instead...
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Here is another exercise... off the top of your head describe the most annoying Havok4 bug in one sentence.
[11:50]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It works pretty well, all things considered.
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	i want to build a chess board that is 256x256, and i want it linked:)
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Or the SVC # if you know it.
[11:50]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Still, it could be a lot better.
[11:50]	Heather Goodliffe:	follow up to that question, Simon/Andrew, would it make sense for someone (Sidewinder?) to post priorities and ETAs somewhere for the rest of us, so we can decide how to prioritize our own work and what to tell people you guys are working on?
[11:50]	Bato Brendel:	#2006
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	has anybody noticed that in h4 if u r inside an objects u can't sit on other objects? Also, u can't click even on your attachments. I mean right click on them and choose touch from the pie menu:(
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	No that would not work well Heather.
[11:51]	Heather Goodliffe:	most annoying bug to me is the vehicle sinking, since it's the most visible and eveyrone complain sabout it
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Often we don't even know what the true ETA is
[11:51]	Rex Cronon:	bobbing when wearing a shield
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	Most annoying: excess collision, cause I cant fix, the rest I can script around.
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	last week I thought we'd get an update out
[11:51]	Bato Brendel:	seam problem is probally the worst one, next to push forces I'd say they are both top contentors
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	but other things got in the way
[11:51]	Heather Goodliffe:	most annoying bug personally is the AV sinking
[11:51]	Squirrel Wood:	If I were a griefer I would say the biggest H4 bug is that it is pretty much impossible to crash with the standard griefer toys :p
[11:51]	Kooky Jetaime:	So far to me, the most annoying "bug" (or feature) is the huge (.1m) gap between objects relying on physics, considering objects can be .01^3 in size, why do two obejects resting on each other have so much more gap.
[11:51]	Simon Linden:	Heather - that's probably a good discussion to have with Sidewinder, since he's the point guy on the jira and communicating the priorities back to us developers
[11:52]	Heather Goodliffe:	most annoying bug for me from a development perspective are the vehicle bugs
[11:52]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I'd have to say the most annoying bug is the collisions right now. Although I'm not sure if it's just one bug.
[11:52]	Bato Brendel:	thats not true squirrel as the mature sandbox has been attacked and crashed a few times. not as bad but it still happens.
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	ooof. I can't fix the "collision tolerance" problem right now Kooky
[11:52]	Heather Goodliffe:	should I just IM sidewinder about that?
[11:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	I know, you just asked. :)
[11:52]	Heather Goodliffe:	or is that something one of you might raise to him?
[11:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1981
[11:52]	Rex Cronon:	i think we could make a page and attach it to the h4 page, which should contain annoying things with h4:)
[11:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	and I made it once sentance.
[11:53]	Bato Brendel:	start up a wiki for it
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	I ask mostly to see if the bugs I'm about to work on are the highest priority.
[11:53]	Simon Linden:	Heather - you can IM him directly
[11:53]	Bato Brendel:	Well my answer is 'seam issues' aka SVC-2006
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-2006 happens to be next on my list. At least it was this morning. I haven't actually been able to start on it yet todya.
[11:54]	Bato Brendel:	well I'll be in the beta to give you some info on that and some vechicles as well
[11:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	Seams are a biggy, I H4 Collision should have handled, rather than worsened.
[11:55]	Bato Brendel:	might help you find a 'cause'
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Right, for those who didn't hear it earlier... right after this meeting I'll hold a "vehicle session" in the Beta grid, region = "Fame Havok1"
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	where you can show me your bugged vehicle and I'll take a copy of it
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	it is running Havok1, so we can see what it is supposed to do
[11:56]	JayR Cela:	hmmm speaking of the Beta grid / how come it is still running with 1.18.X.X client ???
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	We'd best give the vehicles now, since only a Linden could carry them in.
[11:56]	Squirrel Wood:	Humm... I think I may have a very special feature request to file... "Feature request: Coffee machines and food dispensers at every developer desk in LLs office(s)" :p
[11:56]	Heather Goodliffe:	beta grid is aditi right?
[11:56]	Bato Brendel:	btw andrew has the inventory for beta been refreshed recently? I have a very large boat that is having problems with 'jerky' motion but its not in my beta inv.
[11:56]	JayR Cela:	what sense does that make
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	I won't be able to stick around beyond 13:00 pacific time, but the session will last for up to one hour
[11:56]	Heather Goodliffe:	so many versions of SL installed... ;P
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, beta is ADITI
[11:56]	Kooky Jetaime:	Heather - I know that fact
[11:57]	Simon Linden:	Heather - yes, aditi is the beta grid
[11:57]	Kooky Jetaime:	You should be able to connect with the newer clients though too
[11:57]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'll try with 1.19 in a min
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	No Bato, it has not been updated in a long time.
[11:57]	Gellan Glenelg:	ctrl-shift-G on the login screen to get server choice dropdown
[11:57]	Heather Goodliffe:	I'm having trouble getting on the beta grid atm
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler nixes the Food Dispenser idea: Food should b brought fresh, hourly, but interns with nice legs
[11:57]	Bato Brendel:	k can you suggest it might be able to be done? as this boat is a easier example to show the motion problems as the size gives it more 'definition'
[11:57]	Heather Goodliffe:	might be 'cause I'm currently logged in here
[11:57]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I just keep a shortcut with "--aditi" on the command line.
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	Map is borked too..
[11:57]	Kooky Jetaime:	That works for me Gaius
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Beta grid appears to be "up" and "open"
[11:58]	Rex Cronon:	btw, the rc doesn't want to connect to the beta:(
[11:58]	Kooky Jetaime:	Logging in now on Aditi... one sec
[11:58]	Bato Brendel:	1 sec I'll give you the shortcut update to make a client work in the beta
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	ah, you might need to download the beta installer
[11:58]	Simon Linden:	FWIW http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Client_parameters shows how to set the viewer with the --grid option to connect to Aditi
[11:58]	Rex Cronon:	"--aditi" doesn't work with the rc:(
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	Rex - are you using --grid aditi ?
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sounds like a Show Stopper
[11:59]	Gaius Goodliffe:	no command line flags seem to work with the RC :p
[11:59]	Squirrel Wood:	need the beta client to compile scripts to mono
[11:59]	Rex Cronon:	u have to use"--grid aditi"?
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	alright, well whoever can make it, let's go there now
[12:00]	Kitto Flora is there
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	those who can't... if you have bugged vehicles you can try giving me a copy here via my provile
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	profile
[12:00]	Bato Brendel:	yeah simon but I also use a seperate xml file so they dont get confused between the beta and the live grid as the clients might be different for 1.19 and far as I know ADTI client is still 1.18.6
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	what sim did u say andrew?
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	region = "Fame Haovk1"
[12:00]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok so that ctrl-shift-G doesn't work
[12:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	hey
[12:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	you have to agree with the TOS on Aditi
[12:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	AGAIN
[12:01]	Bato Brendel:	--aditi -helperuri http://preview-aditi.secondlife.com/helpers/ -settings 119betasettings.xml is the shortcut added params I use to connect 1.19 to the beta
[12:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	thats why some of you might be failing
[12:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	if you use autolog
[12:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm on Beta using 1.19
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, sorry if it is buggy ... I probably shouldn't be assuming the command line options work. That said, I use the latest or development builds of the viewers on Aditi daily, so there is some way to get it on it