User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 06 03

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:08]	Arawn Spitteler would assemble a study, of how to script physics engines, and allow that to advertise a school.
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	There are some features, like pinning rotation around an axis, that get really ugly if it's not supported inside the engine. So you either end up with ugly code, or you can dig into the engine and make it work
[11:09]	Teravus Ousley:	hehe
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	thank you Simon for reminding me to show up
[11:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Andrew
[11:09]	Aybabtu Aabye:	greetings
[11:09]	Rex Cronon:	just crashed:(
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	I was so engrossed in unravelling some merge problems that I plumb forgot
[11:09]	Aybabtu Aabye:	gaius stole your chair
[11:09]	Teravus Ousley:	Yes.. I've seen some of that ugly code.. implementing a spring tensor was.. odd and cpu consuming.. until we eventually converted it into an angular motor joint
[11:09]	Rex Cronon:	hie everybody
[11:10]	Teravus Ousley:	Hello :D
[11:10]	Gaius Goodliffe:	:)
[11:11]	Teravus Ousley:	Havok 5 is free now.. windows lib (no source) for 'game' development use.
[11:11]	Teravus Ousley:	.. heh, the problem with OpenSimulator.. is it isn't a game by itself.. so that license doesn't cover us.
[11:11]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It's also not Windows-only, right?
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	I recall that Havok had announced that they would make their physics enging free (as in beer)
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	so it sounds like it is currently available
[11:12]	Aybabtu Aabye:	free beer is good
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	Yes, but no source :(
[11:12]	Creem Pye:	yes I saw that news, but that license is incompatible with GPL projects unfrotunately
[11:12]	Teravus Ousley:	No OpenSimulator is Linux and Windows.. though a havok windows lib would be welcomed by the community
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	well... they may provide source to their hkBase lib. Anyone know?
[11:12]	Creem Pye:	hm all i read was about a developer's kit...
[11:13]	Teravus Ousley:	I've got the lib.. and in the version I got, they didn't include source for anything but the examples and demos
[11:13]	Flight Band:	All Go
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	How old is H5?
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	H5 is... about a year old now I think.
[11:13]	Creem Pye:	do you have access to a lot more of the Havok source code, Andrew?
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if they released it, after Bato solved the Prim Seam Bump: Oh, then H6 should be functional
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	yes, we have a custom license with Havok
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	but for paying customers they provide some basic amount of source
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	I don't have all of it. Their core implementations are not included in what I've got.
[11:14]	Gaius Goodliffe thinks it's time for Linden Research to buy another company. ;)
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	ok so I've got a few announcments and news bits...
[11:15]	Teravus Ousley listens
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Intel already bought Havok
[11:15]	Gaius Goodliffe:	awww
[11:15]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Buy Intel! :D
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	How much would Intel cost?
[11:15]	JamesReese Eddy:	in L$?
[11:15]	Teravus Ousley:	haha
[11:15]	Gaius Goodliffe:	lol
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Turns out there are two or three somewhat serious bugs that are affecting the current deployed simulator on the main grid (aka AGNI)
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	The "sticky hover" problem some of you probably know about
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	and a few exploits/griefer modes
[11:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	Why we're walking, lately
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	and a crash
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	I've got a fix for the sticky hover problem and am trying to get it ready for testing and test deploy to the main grid
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	hopefully I'll be able to include a few other fixes in that update( if I can get it done in time) that have already passed QA
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	including that crash bug that was affecting Darling Brody's crystal cage device
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	So, I haven't been able to get to any vehicle stuff this week.
[11:18]	Rex Cronon:	usually crystal crashes if hit hard:)
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	I had a "vehicle session" for some SL Great Rail trains on Friday and had grabbed some demo bugged objects
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	but have been too busy to get to them.
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	I think that is all of the bits I had to mention.
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	The topics are now open.
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... right I had something to bring up... lemme find it...
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler's TeeterTotter is weak, and he doesn't know how long that's been going on.
[11:19]	Creem Pye:	there was some chatter on the LSL mailing list about SVC-34, that right-click selection freezes physical objects in-world
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	so, andrew, were u able to find why desn't text above update for HUDs?
[11:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	Have a seat, Sheet
[11:20]	Teravus Ousley suspects that's desired functionality.. the freezing in world
[11:21]	Mathieu Basiat:	no shit
[11:21]	Teravus Ousley notes that it's hard to modify your prim if it's moving.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	is the teeter toter "dynamic"?
[11:21]	Creem Pye:	several people (myself included) thnk that a client-only freeze would be better
[11:21]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Teravus: Being able to do it to stuff that isn't yours is something of a bug.
[11:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	Physical, uses llApplyRotational Imp[ulse
[11:21]	Creem Pye:	the problem is that you can freeze other people's objects with that, even if they're sitting on them
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	right, re the selection of objects that are not yours... the functionality as designed is bad
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	and needs work
[11:22]	Aybabtu Aabye:	removing the click object freeze would be popular with the racing community
[11:22]	Mathieu Basiat:	someone has been messing with llApplyRotational Impulse
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	however... the solution isn't dead simple... there will be some work to be done on both the server and the client.
[11:22]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Not to mention the aviation community. :)
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hey, Sheet, try the page down key
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Mathieu, yes you mentioned the llApplyRotationalImpulse problem, however I don't know of any changes that would affect that, and haven't been able to look into it.
[11:23]	Sheet Spotter:	Nuttin
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	It was weak, the other day, but now nothing.
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Mathieu, were you able to open a jira and provide a simple demo script?
[11:23]	Mathieu Basiat:	it seems like it changed with the server deploy, not client
[11:23]	Creem Pye:	although with the current behavior, you can freeze bullets mid-air like Neo ;)
[11:23]	Gaius Goodliffe:	lol
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	If so, just assign the jira to me so I can find it on my "list of things to do"
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	We also have a problem with bots related to the "select other people's stuff" bug
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	.
[11:24]	Mathieu Basiat:	Andrew, actually it seems like it is closer to H1 levels, which i guess is good, unless you have modded your vehicles to cope with how H4 was last week
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	bots' selections may not play well with the simulator's expected behavior
[11:25]	Creem Pye:	ah yeah, it would be easy to make a bot select all physical objects in a sim and get people wound up
[11:25]	Teravus Ousley:	hehe, yes. it's tricky code there
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	right Creem. That problem is going to have to be solved soon.
[11:25]	Aybabtu Aabye:	we had a bot attack the other day, attack might not be the best word, something showed up and clicked on all the cars running at that time
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	This is a bad office hour... I've got so much stuff to do. I'm tempted to run and go get "real work" done ;)
[11:26]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sounds like something edited just everything
[11:26]	Aybabtu Aabye:	probably not all at the same time, not sure if its possible, but cycled through them all very quickly, selecting them, freezing them
[11:26]	Arawn Spitteler:	Could you take a copy of this?
[11:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	thx
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, I've got a copy of the teeter totter
[11:27]	Creem Pye:	by the way, I read the log from last week,and I agree that it would be nice to remove the avatar flight elevation limit
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	the TT is indeed "dynamic" (aka physical)
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	and there is some anti-roll code that slows rolling objects down... I wonder if that stuff is affectint the TT
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Ok Creem, thanks for your vode on the avatar fly limits.
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	What was the consensus from last week on that? Anyone remember?
[11:28]	JamesReese Eddy:	what does that serve anyway?
[11:28]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i vote no, unless the no fly rule can be enforced
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	I think many mentioned there should be a per-region or per-estate option on fly height.
[11:29]	JamesReese Eddy:	it affects people for a week or less
[11:29]	JamesReese Eddy:	untill they get a flight assist
[11:29]	Mathieu Basiat:	that anti-roll code might be it as llApplyRotational Impulse seems like it actually speeds up the more you use it
[11:29]	Aybabtu Aabye:	something that cant be bypassed by ctrl-alt-v?
[11:29]	Mathieu Basiat:	longer
[11:29]	Creem Pye:	it wouldn't change anything you can do now with flight assists, aybabtu. the only difference is that you'd have less script lag from fligth assist HUDs
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Mathieu, the anti-roll code (really it just slows down rolling objects, so think of it as rolling friction) only affects objects that are suffering rolling collisions.
[11:30]	Mathieu Basiat:	ahh
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	So... the issue I wanted to raise, so see what you all thought...
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	was the ban heights for parcels...
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	suposedly someone banned from your parcel can currently build > 768 meters above your parcel
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	that is the report anyway, I haven't checked it yet
[11:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought that for Vehicles. Someone shouldn't be able to cost the prim rights, of your parcel, without your okay
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	so the question is, I guess... what do you all think about "unlimited ban heights"? Should parcel owners be able to ban someone from above their parcel for all heights?
[11:32]	Aybabtu Aabye:	yes
[11:32]	Mathieu Basiat:	that will affect flight
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Of course banned people shouldn't be able to buidl up there
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	but what about travel?
[11:32]	Gaius Goodliffe:	If it's a specific person bad, yes.
[11:32]	Creem Pye:	I'd like to see vehicles bounce off ban lines first
[11:32]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Not one of those "only group members allowed" bans, though.
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	but, what if a person just wants to fly over?
[11:33]	Teravus Ousley:	so there's a distinction between an individual ban and a group ban then.
[11:33]	Aybabtu Aabye:	why cant they go around
[11:33]	Mathieu Basiat:	agrees with Gaius
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	So parcel owners should have the right to block travel access for all heights above their parcel?
[11:33]	Mathieu Basiat:	becuse alot of time you get booted from the vehicle
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	If you're at altitude, you won't see that an ass-hole who doesn't like you has a parcel down there.
[11:33]	JamesReese Eddy:	well, couldn't there be an execption for sat on objects?
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	because when u r high in the air is kind of hard to see the parcel?
[11:34]	JamesReese Eddy:	and could be auto returned if they stand up?
[11:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	We need Access Line Visibility, before we send Ban Lines higher
[11:34]	Teravus Ousley:	heh, then you can avoid it like a sky scraper...
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	oh right... the access lines feature needs work
[11:34]	Creem Pye:	right now you're pretty safe while flying across continents if you stay at 300m or so, but it would be a drag if the vehicle would break all the way up to 4096m
[11:35]	Mathieu Basiat:	if an avatar is specifically banned, make it infinite, otherwise keep it at 128 or whatever it is
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	We can't Hover at more than 100 meters, so an actual Ban would block Hover Traffic, while allowing Access Lines to block only to 50 meters
[11:35]	Creem Pye:	usually when I hit a ban line like that and it breaks my vehicle and sends me flying into the air, I leave the vehicle behind as a thank you gift =P
[11:35]	Aybabtu Aabye:	this probably isnt possible but what about making the grid 3D, with open space sims above, the usual flat grid, capping the flat grid at some altitude
[11:36]	Teravus Ousley:	hehe.
[11:36]	Aybabtu Aabye:	flying above youd be in a separate sim, not loading the sims below
[11:36]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I thought the 100m hover limit was gone
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, that would be a harder solution Aybabtu, but it has also occured to me.
[11:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	Some people like the idea of Space Travel, going above 50 miles
[11:37]	Teravus Ousley:	hehe, you mean, less gravity up there?
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	If the hight altitude space were different... it would have to have its own "simulator" or something.
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	if u r in the same sim, it doesn't matter if u r over 1 parcel or not. u use the same resources
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	we'd have to stack the simulators
[11:37]	Sheet Spotter:	Is there an analogy in RL? I think countries can impose no-fly limits, but individual land owners cannot.
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	and prim counts wouldn't contribute against the parcel limits below
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	50 miles = 80 kilometers was settled on as the boundary for Outer Space, at some point in history. US-USSR treaty
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	so... who gets access to the prim resources?
[11:38]	Mathieu Basiat:	noone
[11:38]	JamesReese Eddy:	there is also a limit to the hight of a no fly limit
[11:39]	JamesReese Eddy:	at a certain hight, nobody owns the space
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	I'm a bit fuzzy on the current state of the parcel-owner's rights and the exact limits of the various features/bans
[11:39]	Simon Linden:	Maybe there should be some sane build height limit, so there's free travel in empty space up there
[11:39]	Creem Pye:	hm would it be possible to let people with lower rights have something similar to a temp rez, except that the "temp" objects would be returned to inventory instead of dying after 60s?
[11:39]	Rex Cronon:	lets say u own 75%of a sim, and others own the rest. would u like if your guests can't fly all over the sim, or even u?
[11:39]	Aybabtu Aabye:	perhaps the stacked prims could be larger than 256 so crossing sims was less problematic, alter the scale of the physics to get that to work?
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Creem, I worry that the person's inventory would get really crowded with such a temp-return-to-inventory feature
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	My understanding, is that sims are allowed 16 k prims, but only 15,000 are useable for Building, with the rest as Vehicles, Temp Rez, and maybe Avatars.
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Uh... Aybabtu, you know I don't like >256 megaprims, don't you?
[11:40]	Creem Pye:	I was thinking that it would allow vehicles to fly over (if somebody's sitting on them) but prevent people from hogging the parcel's prim resources
[11:41]	Aybabtu Aabye:	yes? physical ones you mean?
[11:41]	Mathieu Basiat:	he meant sims not prims, larger sims
[11:41]	Aybabtu Aabye:	o sorry, mistypes, stacked *sims*
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	ah ok
[11:41]	Teravus Ousley thinks the sim size limit is in the client.. so you'd have to stack them.. and do a classic border crossing at one point
[11:42]	Gaius Goodliffe:	ew
[11:42]	Teravus Ousley:	.z, is interesting though
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler would like Sim Forcing, too
[11:42]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The LAST thing I'd want to see is sim-crossings while flying up.
[11:42]	JamesReese Eddy:	seems like the resources needed for the "space servers" could fairly low
[11:42]	Mathieu Basiat:	ugh
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	You know what? >256 *sims* would be hard (but not necessarily impossible). I don't think LL will work on it until it has an SL compatible competitor that does it.
[11:42]	Creem Pye:	hm or falling down... if you fell from a great height and crossed at a very high velocity, you might b in danger of crashing
[11:43]	Gaius Goodliffe pokes the OpenSim guy.
[11:43]	Teravus Ousley:	hehe
[11:43]	Aybabtu Aabye:	just throwing this out there, cause i'm odd, if we can have larger sims, can we have a way to shrink all avs inside a sim?
[11:43]	Creem Pye:	ah, acutally opensim has something like that
[11:43]	Teravus Ousley:	well, as I said.. you might be able to do something with z there.
[11:43]	Aybabtu Aabye:	*if we can't
[11:43]	Creem Pye:	adam zaius told me he had 20km*20km running on a single server,
[11:43]	Teravus Ousley:	X and Y, however.. is limited to 256 in the client currently
[11:43]	Creem Pye:	each sim was actually 256m only, but the assets were pooled
[11:43]	Dahlia Trimble:	move the decimal point over a notch
[11:44]	Teravus Ousley:	Yes, you can run many opensim instances on a single server
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... a uniform shrinkage of all content...
[11:44]	Creem Pye:	so sim crossings were immeasurably smooth
[11:44]	Mathieu Basiat:	lol
[11:44]	Aybabtu Aabye:	just avs, not necessarily the content
[11:44]	Mathieu Basiat:	shrinkage
[11:44]	Teravus Ousley:	hehe. It's an idea.
[11:44]	Aybabtu Aabye:	we could build scaled down stuff
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	that would probably be easier than changing the simulator to allow >256 sides
[11:44]	Gaius Goodliffe:	err...
[11:44]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It's the same thing, really.
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	ant size avatars?
[11:44]	Creem Pye:	I've toyed with 1/4 scale vehicles, but evne then it's tough to hide an avatar inside
[11:44]	Mathieu Basiat:	LOD hell
[11:45]	Teravus Ousley:	You'd have a lower resolution heightfield though
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	No Aybabtu, you would build normally sized stuff, but when you walked into the shrunk region with it... it would all automatically show up smaller
[11:45]	Creem Pye:	but if we could have transparent-skin avatars, that problem would disappear
[11:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ah
[11:45]	Creem Pye:	then your avatar could be some 10cm tall "tiny guy" attachment XD
[11:45]	Aybabtu Aabye:	ah thats even better
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	And collision tolerance is set, so physics would get wonky at smaller scales. Sort of quantum effect
[11:45]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:45]	Creem Pye:	the new RC client has that meshless "Ruth" avatar, so that gives me hope that other avatars without skin will be possible in the future
[11:46]	Sheet Spotter wonders how shrinkage would affect XCite objects *snicker*
[11:46]	Teravus Ousley:	hehe, bring back the primitar.. so it automatically scales?
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	No Simon, we would expand the simualation to actually be larger... but just impose a scale transformation when coming in or going out of the region.
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	so the relative collision tolerance would remain the same... with respect to the object.
[11:46]	Teravus Ousley:	the client avatar render is the only thing that won't scale via server code.
[11:46]	Creem Pye:	this approach would make the map view work as well, correct?
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	That is an interesting idea in that it would be easier than actually expanding the simulator's size...
[11:47]	Teravus Ousley:	you'd get knee bendy tiny short avatar :D
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	we already have regions that are locked in at 256m on a side
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	and so those regions are topologically locked in place
[11:48]	Aybabtu Aabye:	if the physics engine cant handle objects below 0.01m or collisions less than 0.1m apart, what happens when items that start that small get shrunk, or do i have some of those limits wrong
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	to fit a single large simulator into the map such that it has 2 or more regions on one side... that would be hard (I think)
[11:49]	Dahlia Trimble:	sim crossings would become more interesting
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Aybabtu, the physics engine would be "enlarged" under the hood, and the objects would actually maintain their size
[11:49]	Aybabtu Aabye:	ok
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	That's how I envision it working, anyway.
[11:49]	Creem Pye:	hmm I guess any adjacent sims could be required to have the same scale
[11:49]	PulseBurst Flow:	any plans to increase the number of local lights that can be seen, up from "skimpy"?
[11:49]	Rex Cronon:	another crash:(
[11:50]	Mathieu Basiat:	ifyou want an easy project, how about fixing the raw file upload so that you can actually use the "make parcels" feature
[11:50]	Mathieu Basiat:	and make it 16bit too
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	The physics engine is currently tuned... the steps-per-second, the collision-tolerance, and some other parameters... to provide the performance/precision that you see today
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	you can make the physics engine more precise at a cost of CPU cycles
[11:50]	Simon Linden:	fwiw I've been thinking occasionally about this for a while ... was interested in making a set of 4 regions, 2x2, which actually ran under one simulator. To the outside world it looks like 4 regions, but inside you don't have the region crossings between them
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	and you can take more steps per second at a cost of CPU cycles
[11:51]	Aybabtu Aabye:	yes! to simon
[11:51]	Mathieu Basiat:	simon i have the perfect region
[11:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	CPU Cycles should increase, according to an expected function
[11:51]	Creem Pye:	that would be great, simon
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	yeah simon... but the protocol changes for that would have to be done on both sides, and there would be more odd "corner case" to deal with
[11:51]	JamesReese Eddy:	I can't help wondering, would the Crystal Space engine work better? Could it be implemented in SL?
[11:51]	Teravus Ousley:	Yes it would be interesting to implement though
[11:51]	Aybabtu Aabye:	andrew to make it bigger at the same cpu load, you increase the general scale of things?
[11:52]	Simon Linden:	yes, the problem ends up with all the details and if it's possible to mimic the 4 regions to the rest of the grid properly
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	JamesReese, I suspect CrystalSpace, or some other dynamics engine could be used... but it would be hard to get exact match on all LSL features and content behavior
[11:52]	Creem Pye:	I guess the only disadvantage to having a "scaled" sim is that the prim elevation map would have >4m scale
[11:53]	Teravus Ousley:	in theory, you could send the client to - xy, and it'll be happy.. but border crossings will be interesting.. regionhandles will be weird.. and might goof up the the client's octrees
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	it would be as hard, or harder, than the trouble we had getting Havok4 as close as it is to Havok1
[11:53]	Mathieu Basiat:	lol
[11:53]	Aybabtu Aabye:	ouch
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	well, this is all nice pie-in-the-sky speculation...
[11:54]	Teravus Ousley:	:D
[11:54]	Mathieu Basiat:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-82
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	I was going to ask if anyone had some really important "do it now" issues to raise... however I realized that I already have a full plate.
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	so nevermind. Keep them to yourself ;-)
[11:54]	Teravus Ousley:	hehe
[11:55]	Teravus Ousley:	Yes, thanks for holding this meeting. It's always a joy and informative.
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	oof, RAW files?
[11:55]	Arawn Spitteler wonders how broad an issue tht teeter totter's going to prove: I think it was actually running, under H4
[11:55]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Next week we'll give you our "do it last week" issues, then. ;)
[11:55]	JamesReese Eddy:	I figured it would mean gutting too much of SL, but I gust covet some of it's features so much
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Who's using the RAW file format?
[11:55]	Mathieu Basiat:	ME
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, that is for creating new regions Mathieu?
[11:55]	Mathieu Basiat:	yes
[11:56]	Mathieu Basiat:	and it is BROKEN
[11:56]	Mathieu Basiat:	lol
[11:56]	Teravus Ousley:	hehe, opensim also is capable of consuming the terrain level of RAW's too
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so I guess that needs to be fixed. What a nice low Jira number that item is.
[11:56]	Mathieu Basiat:	yup
[11:56]	Mathieu Basiat:	they said they would fix it
[11:56]	Teravus Ousley:	mostly thanks to Jhurliman
[11:56]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i had an update/apology to give to the devs here, talking with les white, reviewing office hours transcripts and messing around at length with my creations, i figured out the increased friction bug on some of my things
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sounds like something of interest to Zero's Alt
[11:56]	Aybabtu Aabye:	at least in part
[11:57]	Mathieu Basiat:	and making RAW files 16 bit would be great too
[11:57]	Teravus Ousley:	32 bit :D
[11:57]	Mathieu Basiat:	sure
[11:57]	Teravus Ousley:	r32 :D
[11:57]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Making sculpties 16 bit would be awesome, but that's another topic entirely...
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, raise that issue with Zero and other open-source people.
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	I'm very pro-open source, but I'm mostly working on the important bugs that are affecting the simulator NOW these days.
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	I can only juggle so many thoughts in my brain...
[11:58]	Teravus Ousley:	haha, yes
[11:58]	Mathieu Basiat:	the thing is, if you modify the actual terrain with a smooth, download it, then upload it, the smooth is gone
[11:58]	Mathieu Basiat:	so the sim is capable, but
[11:58]	Aybabtu Aabye:	yes ive noticed that too
[11:59]	Teravus Ousley:	I bet you if you raised the elevation.. it won't happen as much
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Right Mathieu, from a looong time ago... last time I looked at the RAW import stuff, there was a great deal of quantization error going on.
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, you definitely want more bits
[11:59]	Aybabtu Aabye:	i have to terraform things all over if something goes wrong on a sim, reloading from the save is lumpy
[11:59]	Dahlia Trimble:	I thought the raw files had 16 bit height data?
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	however... wouldn't it be better if you could use a real texture format to specify your terrain and all of the related fields?
[11:59]	Mathieu Basiat:	you have a height scale
[12:00]	Mathieu Basiat:	yes
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	sorta like the sculptie hack, but less hacky
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Are we still having trouble, with Avatar Drift, while standing?
[12:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	XD
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think I have a reproducible
[12:00]	Mathieu Basiat:	that would rock
[12:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Less hacky would be nice, yes.
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, one of the Linden's reportes seeing that problem recently again.... sigh.
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Watch me
[12:00]	Mathieu Basiat:	as i have probably created more terrain files than anyone in SL
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	The avatar motion bugs are going to be the death of me... however NOT the hover-drift bug... I've fixed that in my sandbox code
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	really... no I'm serious.
[12:01]	Aybabtu Aabye:	:)
[12:01]	Mathieu Basiat:	it seems better tho
[12:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Perhaps we should just make avatars immobile. :)
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Isn't Avatar Motion where the Physics Market begins?
[12:01]	Teravus Ousley:	heh, the fight to know when to have the PID controller active.. and not .. yay
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	I think the AV drift while walking is related to our code that pins rotation around the 'up' axis. It gets into some weird inertia hacks we've done that make Havok goofy
[12:02]	Mathieu Basiat:	at least i don't bounce when landing
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler would like a Static Motion Option
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, sitting is sorta a "static motion" mode.
[12:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oh speaking of which...
[12:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Any plans to allow upside-down avatars someday?
[12:02]	Mathieu Basiat:	and we are not getting tossed 100 m when unsitting from physical objects....bravo!
[12:02]	Teravus Ousley:	speaking of which, it's 12:02 :D
[12:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sit on something, and turn it over
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	no Gaius, no plans on that.
[12:03]	Teravus Ousley:	getting late. :D
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I've got so much stuff to do... I'm going to run.
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	i think u can already have avatars upside down:)
[12:03]	Mathieu Basiat:	kk ty
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	I'm trying to get a simulator update ready by the end of day.
[12:03]	Teravus Ousley:	we'd love to talk to you all day.. but know you've got lots to get off your task sheet :D
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	I have to run too ... thanks everyone for coming
[12:03]	Creem Pye:	it woudl be nice to have non-mouselook cameras which roll too..
[12:03]	Creem Pye:	thanks for your time
[12:03]	JamesReese Eddy:	can't that just be done with an AO?
[12:04]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[12:04]	Rex Cronon:	bye simon
[12:04]	Teravus Ousley:	Take care. Thanks for a great meeting!
[12:04]	JamesReese Eddy:	TC Andrew
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	yes, thanks for coming.