User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 06 12

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:02]	Simon Linden:	I'll ping them and see...
[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi sindy
[17:02]	Sindy Tsure:	yep.. ping andrew.. he's always late!
[17:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	/waves
[17:02]	Sindy Tsure smiles
[17:02]	RacerX Gullwing:	theres andrew
[17:02]	Siobhan McCallen:	don't have to ping far
[17:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	hey ANdrew
[17:02]	Maggie Darwin:	Here's Andrew...hello, Andrew
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[17:02]	Sindy Tsure was just joking, btw
[17:02]	Sheet Spotter:	Allo, allo
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	yes, I find it stylish to get here late by a few minutes
[17:03]	Siobhan McCallen:	hello, Andrew, Simon
[17:03]	Wolfhaven Teleportation HUD v3.0 is Ready
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	actually.. .it typically takes me a few minutes to disengage from whatever I'm doing to log in
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	ok, so the latest news is...
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	I just filed a QA request on the lastest bugs fixed in the havok4 maintenance branch
[17:05]	Sindy Tsure:	hi sidewinder
[17:05]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi all
[17:05]	Siobhan McCallen:	hi sidewinder
[17:05]	Maggie Darwin:	Hello Sidewinder
[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	hi sidewinder
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	so that will probably be tested tomorrow, which should get it all ready for the mid-next-week deadline for getting into the following week's deploy, if any
[17:06]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok sometimes backchannel im is just *too* distracting...
[17:06]	Sidewinder Linden:	dyathinkasaurus????
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	the bugs fixed... have almost entirely been done by Simon. I've been working on the 1.22.2 and 1.22.3 emergency bug fixes
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	lessee... what is interesting on that list...
[17:06]	Sindy Tsure:	go simon!
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-2485 and SVC-2484 are fixed...
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	MISC-1261 which we were talking about in the last meeting (crash on unlink)
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-2448 llUnsit() grie mode
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	there were some small optimizations made for rezzing objects (parsing the assets)
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	those might actually produce measurable results, but I think the benefits are in the single digit %'s
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	also, the region-wide prim limits are going to be enforced again
[17:09]	Simon Linden:	I've also done some work on TP arrivals - rezzing in alot of attachments can cause a performance dip. No code for releasing yet, however
[17:09]	Sindy Tsure:	does SVC-2485 require llVolumeDetect'ed stuff or is it any physical/phantom prims?
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	There is a way to go over region prim limits on private estates by using the "parcel prim bonus factor" or whatever it is called.
[17:10]	Sindy Tsure:	performance dip of the sim, Simon?
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	The parcel prim bonus is a feature that is supposed to allow you to increase your per-parcel prim limits... but you're supposed to designate some parcels as "open empty space" to compensate
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	however.. currently there is no enforcement that the estate owners actually keep those parcels empty of prims.
[17:11]	Thomas Shikami:	hello
[17:11]	Simon Linden:	When someone arrives via TP, you'll get a dip in the frame rate while it does a bunch of work on adding all the attachments. So the fps can drop suddenly
[17:11]	Sindy Tsure:	never has been enforced or it was removed?
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	hey thomas
[17:12]	Sindy Tsure wonders how many islands are over their limit...
[17:12]	Maggie Darwin:	YOu can also end up with the target sim being unaware of some of the attachments.,
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	there are about 100 regions over their limit I think
[17:12]	Siobhan McCallen:	is it simply going to be a hard cap on the 15000 limit, or a requirement for there to be truly *empty* patches?
[17:12]	Maggie Darwin:	the fanmouts "broken attachments" bug
[17:12]	Sindy Tsure has noticed the sim fps doing big drops lately, when people arrive, simon
[17:12]	Siobhan McCallen:	to cover the internal bonus distribution?
[17:12]	Sindy Tsure looks forward to any help you can get us there!
[17:13]	Maggie Darwin:	Viewer thinks there is an attachment, sim thinks no
[17:13]	Sindy Tsure:	that's not too bad, andrew.. more than i'd want to pay tier on but a drop in the grid bucket
[17:13]	RacerX Gullwing:	last weeks rolling update messed up the snail races are you gonna fix it with the next one? talking about the latest colision inconsistencys
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Re the question about SVC-2485 -- the bug affects phantom objects with sitting avatars
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think the avatar shows up as phantom... but the seated avatar does not trigger llVolumeDetect objects
[17:14]	Sindy Tsure:	we might have talked about that last week here - actually why i'm here this week, too! re: waterslide unsits..
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	snail races? How did the snail races break?>
[17:15]	RacerX Gullwing:	ha
[17:15]	Sindy Tsure:	somebody salted the course! :(
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	What is the jira for the snail races?
[17:15]	Siobhan McCallen:	those were the slug races
[17:15]	RacerX Gullwing:	well havok 4 killed the way seifiants flingers work
[17:15]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. right.. oops
[17:15]	RacerX Gullwing:	so we had to double them put in boosters
[17:16]	RacerX Gullwing:	anyway last week they stopped working most of the time
[17:16]	Aeron Kohime:	Hello
[17:16]	RacerX Gullwing:	now you pop straight through without colision happening till the way back down
[17:16]	Rex Cronon:	hey aeron
[17:16]	Sindy Tsure:	(/me waves hi to the new people)
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	what features do the snail races use? llVehicle stuff? llMoveTo?
[17:16]	RacerX Gullwing:	i set one up over here the green thing
[17:16]	RacerX Gullwing:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1179
[17:17]	RacerX Gullwing:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-875
[17:17]	RacerX Gullwing:	that one says fix pending
[17:17]	Aeron Kohime:	Sorry i'm late everyone.
[17:17]	RacerX Gullwing:	wondering when?
[17:17]	RacerX Gullwing:	the first one was filed back in january
[17:17]	RacerX Gullwing:	100 people voted not assigned yet
[17:17]	PulseBurst Flow:	I was late too..is there a fixed agenda?
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't looked at llPushObject in a while. I'll have to review those bugs more carefully than I can do right now.
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	I'll try to have an answer next week.
[17:18]	Maggie Darwin:	SVC-2511 looks related, Racer
[17:19]	RacerX Gullwing:	if you watch the last 2 races at http://slcn.tv/giant-snail-races you can see the dramatic differences
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Regarding the question about the region-wide prim imits... the limit will be at 15k for normal regions... but temp-on-rez objects are counted separately
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	and will be able to exceed the 15k limit a couple k
[17:20]	Aeron Kohime:	Oh Andrew, I tested that bug where I would lag through and stay though walls. It happens without a flight assist aswell.
[17:20]	Maggie Darwin:	We have an interestig new possible bug, not fully developed, which seems to affect *only* Openspaces sims. In this, non-pysical mouselook fliers fail to operate at all, even though they work fine in full sims at the same 1.2.3 build. We have demonstrated it with two different vehicles. That it is Openspaces only is very curious.
[17:20]	RacerX Gullwing:	so nothing in this rolling restart will fix what you broke last week with colision ?
[17:21]	RacerX Gullwing:	just trying to figure out if i need a contingency plan
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	correct, I don't know of any collision fixes in this last rolling update, which completed this morning.
[17:21]	RacerX Gullwing:	ok thanks
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	The bug about "non-physical mouselook fliers" in openspace regions... what features are they using to move around?
[17:22]	RacerX Gullwing:	well be laughing at you guys at the next race where we get about 5000 people watching again this week then
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	llSetPos() and llSetRot() ?
[17:22]	Siobhan McCallen:	They fly fine in a full sim
[17:22]	Maggie Darwin:	Sio? You've been inside those scripts...
[17:22]	Siobhan McCallen:	let me call 'em up
[17:23]	Siobhan McCallen:	yes
[17:23]	Maggie Darwin:	Andrew: It seems likley...is this known?
[17:23]	Siobhan McCallen:	they're basically the Jesrad Seraph standard nonphys
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	No, this is new to me Maggie.
[17:23]	Maggie Darwin:	Doln't want to create a dupof Jira
[17:23]	Siobhan McCallen:	but steerable in mouselook mode
[17:23]	Siobhan McCallen:	they work fine in a full sim
[17:24]	Maggie Darwin:	It's not that they work slowly...they don't work *at all*
[17:24]	Siobhan McCallen:	but in a void sim, they don't steer
[17:24]	Thomas Shikami:	ahh
[17:24]	Simon Linden:	It's very odd that it's Openspace regions only ... other than the CPU power and prim limits, it's really the same code
[17:24]	Siobhan McCallen:	your camera swings, but the vehicle does not
[17:24]	Siobhan McCallen:	we've tried in several different openspace sims and multiple craft
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	crap... the 'f' key on my keyboard broke off
[17:24]	Maggie Darwin:	And with a *lot* of Openspaces being sold for rentals now...gonna see it more
[17:24]	Thomas Shikami:	how do you type f then?
[17:24]	Sindy Tsure notices two f's in 'off' too
[17:25]	Sindy Tsure:	maybe it's 'g' and he's typing 'f' because he now has no 'g'
[17:25]	Siobhan McCallen:	I tested with my own mouselook nonphys craft, and an Aubretec Osprey
[17:25]	Aeron Kohime:	you can still type without the key there, just harder
[17:25]	Maggie Darwin:	pushing on keystem. :-)
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	so now I"m using my alt keyboard... a touchstream... we'll see how my typing rate slows cown
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	and my typo rate increases
[17:25]	Maggie Darwin:	Bring your alt in to type. :-)
[17:25]	Siobhan McCallen:	I can give you a copy of the vehicle I used to test, if youlike
[17:26]	Zwagoth Klaar:	Are scripts throttled based on sim performance?
[17:26]	PulseBurst Flow:	ok to bring up new topics?
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	anyway... I'm trying to think how openspace would affect these mouslook sripts
[17:26]	Siobhan McCallen:	I couldn't understand it myself, which is why we're here
[17:26]	Zwagoth Klaar:	If they are, its a possible cause for why they wouldnt work on openspace
[17:26]	Maggie Darwin:	OPenspaces are being abused a lot. Can be very scriptlaggy.
[17:26]	Sindy Tsure:	is there a lot else going on on the openspace sim?
[17:27]	Sheet Spotter:	Do OpenSim servers do anything to prevent one sim from taking an inordinate amount of resources? (Like script time.)
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	and the only thing that comes to mind is that openspace get less CPU resources... and when that happens the script engine suffers the most
[17:27]	Maggie Darwin:	Not in the one I tested in.
[17:27]	Siobhan McCallen:	no. not even a single avatar there other than the av testing the craft
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	have you noticed any other script performance problems there?
[17:27]	Maggie Darwin:	The script ips seems low
[17:27]	Thomas Shikami:	scripts run at about 1/8th their speed subjectively as I see
[17:27]	Maggie Darwin:	We dont usually hang in OS sims
[17:27]	Flight Band:	All Go
[17:27]	Maggie Darwin:	But had this report..and investigated.
[17:27]	Sidewinder Linden:	do those performance stats change if the region is restarted?
[17:28]	Aeron Kohime:	I don't want to repeat myself (as I would then sound impatient), but my thoughts may of been clobbered by Maggie's even bigger post.
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	well... open a jira about it, assign it to Simon, and drop him a copy of the script.
[17:28]	Maggie Darwin:	Don't know. Don't own one. And based on this...don't want one.
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	er... copy of the object
[17:28]	Aeron Kohime:	ouch
[17:28]	Siobhan McCallen:	theres a copy of the craft, Simon
[17:29]	Sidewinder Linden:	openspace regions are really not designed to be used as regular regions... they're shared multiple per cpu, and really are an offshoot of void sims that were designed principally to be open water...
[17:29]	Sindy Tsure:	sorry, aeron - forgot i had that on... :\
[17:29]	Siobhan McCallen:	We'll file a JIRA
[17:29]	Siobhan McCallen nods
[17:29]	Simon Linden:	ok - so this just doesn't steer in mouselook on an OS region? Is that the bug?
[17:29]	Siobhan McCallen:	I make ships, so this affects my business.
[17:29]	Maggie Darwin:	Sidewinder: We know that. But if you've been out on the grid ou know what's going on.
[17:29]	Siobhan McCallen:	yes
[17:29]	Simon Linden:	ok, thanks
[17:30]	Siobhan McCallen:	steers fine in a full sim, doesn't steer in an OS region
[17:30]	Siobhan McCallen:	in MOUSELOOK
[17:30]	Maggie Darwin:	Junior land barons are buying up OS sims, then "selling" teh lang at wha appear to noobs to be bargain prices.
[17:30]	Zwagoth Klaar:	I experienced similar in the beta when I was testing vehicles on this sim, its a bit hit and miss, some days it works, some it doesnt, testing in other OS sims most likely will produce other results.
[17:31]	Maggie Darwin:	"the land" rather
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	pulseburst, you'll just have to throw your question out. If we don't answer it try repeating it after a while.
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	er... your topic
[17:31]	Sidewinder Linden:	understood maggie - and there is some discussion of how to get expectations set more realisitically... and there are some base performance isssues that are known and being discussed
[17:31]	PulseBurst Flow:	OK.thanks andrew..I didn't want to interrupt
[17:31]	Sindy Tsure goes off on a tangent and wonders how you can tell the difference? is sim prim usage in About Land the only way?
[17:31]	PulseBurst Flow:	One of the nice features of navigation is that when you walk into a steep terrain or very steep build, or find yourself in a pit, you can continue forward and walk up it, rather than having to switch to flying, fly up, overshoot, land to walk some more.
[17:31]	PulseBurst Flow:	Now, it seems, this feature has been deemed "a bug" and has "been fixed" based on an issue that received only 4 votes in the public Jira.
[17:32]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. this is an openspace sim?
[17:32]	PulseBurst Flow:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-961
[17:32]	PulseBurst Flow:	DEV-15875: Avatar now collides with tall prims, rather than walking up walls
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	Good question Sindy. That is the only way I know about... there is no obvious hint about openspace regions.
[17:32]	PulseBurst Flow:	Being able to move about this way is convenient, and no more "unreal" than flying.
[17:32]	PulseBurst Flow:	Seems more a UI issue than a bug.
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	so the issue is... "avatars should be able to walk up walls"?
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	All walls or some walls?
[17:33]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes.
[17:33]	PulseBurst Flow:	;-D
[17:33]	Thomas Shikami:	ideally the same as in Havok 1
[17:33]	Kitto Flora:	Once an OpenspaceSim has been divided into parcels it is hard to tell that it *IS* and OS sim. Ive had some customers caught out by the poor performance in OS sims.
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	What does everybody think?
[17:33]	Sindy Tsure does not care as long as you tell us the threshold between wall and ramp..
[17:34]	Rex Cronon:	at least on those that are less than 60degrees?
[17:34]	Siobhan McCallen:	Sindy, there is http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2431 that was filed to ask for a way ot tell the difference between an OS and full sim
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	a wall in this case would be... a vertical surface
[17:34]	Aeron Kohime:	I personally like the current slope walkability, makes walls behave more like walls
[17:34]	Sindy Tsure:	ty!
[17:34]	PulseBurst Flow:	Well, I brought it up at Torley's office..he was surprised about the change..and also at the UI office hours.
[17:34]	Kitto Flora:	So the wall thing is what broke the crystal puzzle in PotHealer's?
[17:34]	PulseBurst Flow:	what is the harm in being able to walk up a wall?
[17:35]	Maggie Darwin:	Well, it obsoletes some in-world products.
[17:35]	Thomas Shikami:	how about having the material to be in place with if avatar as able to walk up vertical walls?
[17:35]	Zwagoth Klaar:	rubber is walkable, glass isnt, etc?
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	it would mean... some things like fences around platforms would not necessarily keep you inside
[17:35]	Thomas Shikami:	should be impossible to walk up glass, but okay for rubber
[17:36]	PulseBurst Flow:	If realism was the goal..then no phantom objects..no flying..etc..
[17:36]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes, andrew.
[17:36]	Rex Cronon:	no tp?
[17:36]	Thomas Shikami:	maybe, impossible to walk up walls, where X and Y rotation are 0.0
[17:36]	PulseBurst Flow:	but you can fly up over fence..so it doesn't keep you either
[17:37]	Sheet Spotter:	Not in a no-fly zone. :-)
[17:37]	wolf1: >:	)
[17:37]	Zwagoth Klaar:	absolute vertical shouldnt be walkable, it was never really possible unless you had momentium before hitting the object.
[17:37]	PulseBurst Flow:	OK..so it's about imprisoning avatars in walled areas?
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	rather than bump into obstacles you would walk up them... nearly all obstacles
[17:37]	Rex Cronon:	u can fly in no-fly:)
[17:37]	Zwagoth Klaar:	even then you appeared to bounce a bit and catch as it ejected you
[17:37]	Zwagoth Klaar:	allowing you to "walk up"
[17:37]	wolf1: >:	)
[17:38]	PulseBurst Flow:	anyway..I think it is a legitimate UI issue..not just a bug, or not bug issue..
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	I find the "avatar walks up walls" bug/misfeature objectionable, but I'm curious to find out what everybody else thinks.
[17:38]	PulseBurst Flow:	and people are used to certain navigation skills..
[17:38]	Aeron Kohime:	I tested it and you can fly right through walls, unassisted, not just really thin ones either, .5 or better.
[17:39]	Rex Cronon:	how about allowing sim owners to turn if on/off?
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	And I'm a bit confused about the state of how things used to be... could you walk up walls in Havok1? Vertical walls?
[17:39]	Zwagoth Klaar:	no, havok 1 you hit them
[17:39]	Aeron Kohime:	nope, but really slanted walls you could
[17:39]	Thomas Shikami:	it was possible in havok 1 for special builds
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	It used to be you could walk up 80 degree slopes .. at least
[17:39]	Zwagoth Klaar:	objects slanted less than about 80 to 85 were walkable
[17:40]	PulseBurst Flow:	I haven't done any testing..but finding my self facing very steep terrains and builds..have walked up them..
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	Yeaah
[17:40]	PulseBurst Flow:	and seemed the natural thing to do.
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	This is bad
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	Diff from what used to be
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	Well... what if we had a feature where you could specify a surface that would allow you to walk up it... I've got an idea on how to do it...
[17:40]	PulseBurst Flow:	having to switch to fly..and overshoot. and land
[17:40]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ladders depend on being able to talk up fairly steep inclines
[17:40]	Thomas Shikami:	there is a Havok 1 sim on beta, can test it there
[17:40]	PulseBurst Flow:	would be disruptive
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	but the timeline would be a couple of months at least
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	mostly waiting for other projects to complete... it isn't hard.
[17:41]	Thomas Shikami:	and if we use the materials?
[17:41]	Zwagoth Klaar:	a vertical walk surface would be an amazing advancement
[17:41]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Perfectly vertical probably shouldn't be doable, but extremely steep must be.
[17:41]	PulseBurst Flow:	Gaius..that's just an opinion..not a bug
[17:41]	Rex Cronon:	it might be really interesting if u could walk on the ceiling too
[17:41]	Zwagoth Klaar:	using a material would be ideal, good idea Andrew
[17:41]	Thomas Shikami:	absolutely verticals that are not high should be walkable. If they are like 0.5m
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... I wonder if it would be possible to allow walking up very steep inclines... I've got an idea there.
[17:42]	Thomas Shikami:	as you can climb up those things IRL
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	70 degrees works, 75 degrees dont. Its different to H1. Will break a lot of ladders
[17:42]	Zwagoth Klaar:	you already can andrew, you just need to be moving forwards at a fair rate
[17:42]	PulseBurst Flow:	maybe just pause the walking for a sec. then continue if someone has up arrow still pressed.
[17:42]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That may be an opinion, Pulse, but it's a fact that making them not walk upable would break a lot of existing content.
[17:42]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Content that worked fine under Havok1. It would almost immediately prompt a critical bug report.
[17:42]	Zwagoth Klaar:	running at a wall, jumping and hitting it can allow you to walk up it like it was a lip
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	Yes PulseBurst, I too was thinking that a pause might be doable.
[17:43]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes, ok, a pause, and a thud sound. ;-D
[17:43]	Rex Cronon:	why u need the sound
[17:43]	PulseBurst Flow:	then you could decide to plow ahead and walk it, or fly up.
[17:44]	PulseBurst Flow:	you don't..
[17:44]	Rex Cronon:	u can set the collision sound for objects
[17:44]	PulseBurst Flow:	just throwing out idea.
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	well, I've got ideas on how to make vertical walking work for some content, and maybe not be too annoying for those who want walls to be walls...
[17:44]	Sindy Tsure:	is collision sound a prim property that stays after the script is gone?
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	however, I'd really like more input at to what the general consensus is on how things should work.
[17:45]	Rex Cronon:	i think so
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	I'll try to talk to Torley and a few others.
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	vertcal walls always were walls - unclimable. I tried to climb mang :)
[17:45]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes, that's what i think..more discussion..rather than just fixing it as a bug..decide the behaviour.
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	many
[17:45]	Siobhan McCallen:	I think it should be steep objects are climbable, to allow ladders to work right. But perfectly plumb vertical is a wall, not climbable.
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	I'm willing to take a swing at it.
[17:46]	Siobhan McCallen:	unless you want to make a "climbable" property. :)
[17:46]	Saijanai Kuhn:	well, I could see allowing that as a scriptable option (is walkable)
[17:46]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes, ladders are good example..you want to walk up very steep object
[17:46]	Zwagoth Klaar:	Oh, nice job on fixing the vol-detect lag with llPush/physical and avatars
[17:46]	Thomas Shikami:	I can see it working with the material set
[17:46]	Zwagoth Klaar:	whoever it was
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	no, I've got a different idea that is more general
[17:47]	PulseBurst Flow:	ok, thanks
[17:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	could enable space station builds
[17:47]	Thomas Shikami:	what idea then?
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	er... mabye not. I just remembered that Havok4 actually propagates keyframed objects that have velocity... hrm...
[17:48]	Kitto Flora:	Cant you just do it on angle?
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	the idea was to allow "static" objects to have a velocity... which would drag the avatar up
[17:48]	Thomas Shikami:	uhh, that reminds me of the force that pushes avatars through walls
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	but yes, a careful tuning of the angles anc collision heights at which you could walk would suffice.
[17:49]	Aeron Kohime:	Like a sort of conveyor belt?
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	Thomas, I hear you about the avatars that walk through walls. There is also a bug about bullets going through avatars.
[17:49]	Siobhan McCallen:	strong nuclear force. *smile*
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	I think the two bugs are related.
[17:50]	Zwagoth Klaar:	that was the force that allowed you to stand on top of cars like you were glued to them it sounds like
[17:50]	Thomas Shikami:	that thing I mean had a viral effect on prims
[17:50]	Zwagoth Klaar:	xD
[17:50]	Sindy Tsure recently noticed that an object she has which drops on people are pushing them through floors..
[17:50]	Thomas Shikami:	bullets through avatars was another thing, I solved by having them long
[17:50]	Aeron Kohime:	and how about bullets that go through walls?
[17:50]	Sindy Tsure:	dunno if that's related, tho
[17:50]	Zwagoth Klaar:	I know what Thomas is talking about
[17:50]	Zwagoth Klaar:	its a bit more serious issue
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, could be related Sindy.
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	? what is Thomas talking about?
[17:51]	Aeron Kohime:	I noticed that too Sindy.
[17:51]	Siobhan McCallen:	can't always modify your bullets.
[17:51]	Maggie Darwin:	Thomas: That's a circumvention, not a solution.
[17:51]	Aeron Kohime:	Long Bullets
[17:51]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[17:51]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Bullets are frequently made about 3m long to make them work right.
[17:51]	Zwagoth Klaar:	I think it might be a better thing to talk about in private than at a meeting. At least what I think he is talking about.
[17:51]	Sheet Spotter:	Sindy, need a dummy? :-)
[17:52]	Maggie Darwin:	Piles of existing cotent are now broken.
[17:52]	Rex Cronon:	there is a small problem with long bullets, they can bounce and hit u
[17:52]	Aeron Kohime:	Yeah, you fly through walls if your not careful, don't even need a flight assist and such. </brokenrecord>
[17:52]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yes, it's a very less than ideal solution.
[17:52]	Sindy Tsure:	weird.. it doesn't work here.. does on my home sim - will push me thru a 10m thick prim
[17:52]	Maggie Darwin:	Sindy: This is an openspaces sim
[17:53]	Sindy Tsure:	there it si
[17:53]	Sheet Spotter:	Woohoo!
[17:53]	Sindy Tsure:	*is
[17:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	of upi jave am object puishing you, you can get through almost anything
[17:53]	Siobhan McCallen:	perhaps SVC-2511 is the issue?
[17:53]	Siobhan McCallen:	with the long bullets?
[17:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	avatar can be pushed through things
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	My Jesrad Seraph wolf works ok here in mouselook.
[17:53]	Thomas Shikami:	David C. in here?
[17:54]	Thomas Shikami:	I see, walking through walls doesn't seem to work any more
[17:54]	Aeron Kohime:	can you fly through it?
[17:54]	Maggie Darwin:	Kitto: But does your wolf navigate in pitch axis? ;-)
[17:54]	Thomas Shikami:	ohh
[17:54]	Zwagoth Klaar:	watch this
[17:54]	Thomas Shikami:	hehe
[17:54]	Kitto Flora:	MAggie: No. only for-aft motion and rotate around Z
[17:55]	Maggie Darwin:	Oh, geez....Siobhan's ship is working here
[17:55]	Sindy Tsure:	saw her head poke thru for a second there..
[17:55]	Maggie Darwin:	Whatever it is, it's not broken here
[17:55]	Aeron Kohime:	alot of lag here
[17:55]	Siobhan McCallen:	I'll doublecheck it in another OS
[17:55]	Gaius Goodliffe:	New server deploy fixed it?
[17:55]	Maggie Darwin:	29k ips here
[17:55]	Siobhan McCallen:	it worked here with the one I gave Simon
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	I woulnd't expect the recent server deploy to fix something there, but maybe.
[17:56]	Sindy Tsure:	sidewinder went afk.. anybody have some extra bunny ears and stuff?
[17:56]	Siobhan McCallen takes note of the stat bar
[17:56]	Kitto Flora:	This sim is pretty loaded. LSL is only running at 10% speed
[17:56]	Maggie Darwin:	Second Life Server 1.22.3.89352 was running in both cases...working and not
[17:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	just got back sindy - nice try ;)
[17:57]	Sindy Tsure:	d'oh! busted!
[17:57]	Aeron Kohime:	Last I tested you could, just to laggy to really test it without makign a huge wall you can't avoid to hit
[17:57]	Siobhan McCallen:	maybe it's lag-related
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	ok, I'll look into it -- avatar can go through walls too easily
[17:58]	Aeron Kohime:	wall, ceiling, floors, thats about it
[17:58]	Thomas Shikami:	just use a non-phys or enter god mode and you can go through walls
[17:58]	Sindy Tsure:	is it a function of sim physics fps vs how fast the avatar's moving?
[17:58]	Sindy Tsure:	er.. scratch that question.. not sure it makes sense
[17:58]	Rex Cronon:	could u not make it imposible to tunnel through thing. if tunneling no longer works, is very hard to get out of cages
[17:59]	Siobhan McCallen:	also breaks tons of dashing products
[17:59]	Aeron Kohime:	i'm sure at high speeds anything will go through anything
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	ha! tunnelling is a "feature"
[17:59]	Thomas Shikami:	I like how some oddities from quantum physics apply on not quite related problems in SL, too
[17:59]	Sheet Spotter tries not to get *into* cages. :-)
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think I could totally nerf it ... too many people would start to complain
[18:00]	Aeron Kohime:	it breaks alot of shields in sl militaries, shields and walls no longer stop the bullets
[18:00]	Rex Cronon:	u don't have to try to get into them, there so many nice people that will do it for u:)
[18:00]	Aeron Kohime:	Perhaps the avatar going through walls and the objects going through walls is related
[18:01]	Saijanai Kuhn:	at some point, it seems to m, you'll need to provide options to sim owners to set things that might break certain conent for the sake of making other content run more reliably
[18:01]	Aeron Kohime:	I never get caged really, unles its with friends who are joking around.
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	this hour is almost up. Any new topics before we close?
[18:01]	Maggie Darwin:	for some values of "reliably"
[18:01]	Saijanai Kuhn:	just that last coment, as something for the future
[18:01]	Siobhan McCallen:	I've fallen through floors because I had some other prim I was editing interpenetrate the floor. happened last night.
[18:02]	Sheet Spotter:	Thank you for this hour, Andrew.
[18:02]	Siobhan McCallen:	thank you Andrew
[18:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	yes, THanks
[18:02]	Sindy Tsure:	ty, Lindens! cya, all
[18:02]	Aeron Kohime:	thankyou Andrew
[18:02]	PulseBurst Flow:	thanks andrew.
[18:02]	Maggie Darwin:	Yes, thanks to all the Lindens here
[18:02]	Rex Cronon:	bye sindy
[18:02]	Siobhan McCallen:	And sidewinder and simon
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	ok then. Thank you all for coming.
[18:02]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone
[18:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Thank you gentlemen.
[18:02]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[18:02]	PulseBurst Flow:	thanks simon
[18:02]	PulseBurst Flow:	bye
[18:02]	Aeron Kohime:	Thanks Simon and Sidewinder aswell.
[18:02]	Siobhan McCallen:	I'll doublecheck that nonphys issue and if I can repro it I'll post a JIRA
[18:02]	Maggie Darwin:	Your guys do amazing stuff...I'm a software engieer in RL...appreciate how hard your jobs are.
[18:03]	Siobhan McCallen:	ditto what she said
[18:03]	Aeron Kohime:	I work on AI I have no clue how hard it is, but I appreciate your work.
[18:03]	Thomas Shikami:	okay, I just have one thing that I'd like to have to do more bug testing