User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 07 03

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	i have question related to a lsl function, but i have no idea who to ask? could i ask u?
[17:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi everybody
[17:06]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hello
[17:06]	Simon Linden:	Sure Rex
[17:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[17:06]	PulseBurst Flow:	Hi everyone
[17:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi pulse
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	ok, I'm actually here now ;-)
[17:07]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Welcome! :)
[17:07]	Rex Cronon:	when u use llSetLinkPrimitiveParams, to set rotation, shouldn't set rotation of linked children relative to root?
[17:07]	Rex Cronon:	when u set pos that is what it does
[17:07]	PulseBurst Flow:	one more Linden, and we'll be even. ;-D
[17:08]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Rex: That would be far too consistent. Consistency would take all the fun out of LSL. ;)
[17:08]	Rex Cronon:	lol
[17:08]	Simon Linden:	What does it actually do, use world rotation and ignore the root?
[17:08]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[17:08]	Rex Cronon:	yes
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, that's a good topic Simon. Are you going to bring up the seated avatar linkability issue?
[17:09]	Gaius Goodliffe:	There's no llSetPrimitiveParams equivalent of llSetLocalRot
[17:09]	Rex Cronon:	llSetLinkPrimitiveParams should do that
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	Andrew - I brought it up once when you were on vacation, and it was originally set to 54m. Tha's when I got the pushback on that being too small and stuff would break
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	anybody here know what stuff would break?
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	good stuff?
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	I didn't understand the difference with that and how llSitPos() was used
[17:10]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It ought to have the same range as llSetPos, really...
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	oof... I think llSitPos() works the same way, but is specific to sitting avatars
[17:11]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It's just doing the same thing after the fact...
[17:11]	Rex Cronon:	there are scripted objects that use it to protect you from being shot at
[17:11]	Simon Linden:	Actually, nothing from the Havok1 era should break, since that had a limit
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	right, and llSitPos() only works right on sit
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	ok then I won't worry about it too much
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	as for announcements...
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't been able to get much useful work done this week... I was tracking down a bug that was blocking the next simulator update deploy
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	but it wasn't even my bug :-(
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	(my bugs are much better ;-)
[17:12]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hehe
[17:12]	PulseBurst Flow:	:)
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	So nothing interesting is fixed that I know of. Perhaps Simon has a few tidbits to announce there.
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	Somewhat related... at lest to my personal productivity levels, is a re-organization going on in the LL developer pool these days.
[17:13]	Simon Linden:	Not much - I did some work on making OpenSpace regions perform better, but not sure if that's going to make it out since it messes up our performance tracking systems
[17:14]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The performance tracking system is bad for performance? :)
[17:14]	Simon Linden:	yep :)
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	The internal codename for he re-org is "cake" -- we're retiring our old "studio" system, and moving to 5 or 6 groups that have explicit ownership of various SL feature sets
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	It used to be that studios had a "director" and owned projects. Projects had a "tech lead" and sometimes a "project lead who wasn't tech", and often a "project manager"
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	but the LL developers would sometimes move from studio to studio, depending on the project they were working on
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	One of the problems with studios was that projects would get done, and it wasn't clear whose job it was to maintain them
[17:17]	PulseBurst Flow:	wouldn't that be "the new guy"?
[17:17]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hehe
[17:17]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Unfortunately, that's too often true.
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	we did have a maintenance studio (aka blacklight) but it was focused on problems that were currently hitting the SL grid *right now*
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	so under the "cake" model the ownership and maintenance of various feature sets is clearer (more clear?)
[17:18]	Gaius Goodliffe:	And the people maintaining something should be more familiar with it since they built it in the first place, eh?
[17:19]	PulseBurst Flow:	wait..though..isn't the cake a lie...that's worrisome
[17:19]	Gaius Goodliffe:	lol
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	I'll be working in the "Core Platform" group (aka "core"), which is a bit understaffed at the moment
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	and I'll be picking up some maintenance coordination responsibilities during the transition
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	so it isn't clear how that is going to affect my productivity in the normal bug-fixing category -- probably for the worse
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	and I'll be balancing various Havok4-specific bugs with bugs of different sorts
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	that is, the priorities of aforementioned bugs
[17:22]	Rex Cronon:	so, no everybody can have different "cakes" on their table, or they can have only 1 cake?
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	dunno where the "cake" name came from
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	I wasn't involved in the initial cake discussions
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	I was too busy fighting with Havok4 bugs at the time
[17:23]	Rex Cronon:	this "cake" business sounds kind of funny
[17:23]	PulseBurst Flow:	Andrew..this re-organization is interesting..and yet a bit confusing..since you and LL are sharing this internal structure...perhaps if someone put a reference article describing the organization would be helpful.
[17:23]	PulseBurst Flow:	on the Wiki
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	but I guess another fallout from this re-org is that, outside of office hours, I will tend to be focusing on less interesting topics than you are all interested in
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	you'll have to work harder to bring up the more interesting topics to talk about
[17:24]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Actually, you just need to have Torley follow you around for a day with a camera and document a day in the life of an LL dev. :)
[17:24]	PulseBurst Flow:	Oh..ok..now I see..
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	Or I could just bring up my woes on triaging poorly written bug reports ;-)
[17:24]	PulseBurst Flow:	lol
[17:24]	PulseBurst Flow:	OK..well. I have some ideas..
[17:25]	PulseBurst Flow:	or questions..
[17:25]	Gaius Goodliffe:	"The object doesn't work." :)
[17:25]	PulseBurst Flow:	but maybe not technical enough..
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	Pulseburst has the floor
[17:25]	PulseBurst Flow:	Oh..simon nods off now. ;-D
[17:25]	PulseBurst Flow:	OK
[17:25]	PulseBurst Flow:	Well...local lights
[17:25]	Simon Linden:	I'M AWAKE I AM!
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	Simon is a multi-tasker -- he's in ur meeting fixin' ur bugs
[17:26]	Rex Cronon:	low on coffee:)
[17:26]	PulseBurst Flow:	They are really nice..for painting the scenes..and look of SL
[17:26]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Too much blood in your caffeine system?
[17:26]	PulseBurst Flow:	but there are like only 6 or so, you can see right?
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	right
[17:26]	PulseBurst Flow:	And a few people with facelights
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps you want more local lights?
[17:26]	PulseBurst Flow:	ruin all your lighting
[17:26]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes..
[17:26]	PulseBurst Flow:	why the limitation?
[17:27]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It ought to be user-settable, like the particle count is.
[17:27]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... Runitai Linden is working on adding many many many more local lights
[17:27]	PulseBurst Flow:	that is what I think
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	anybody here have screenshots of the preliminary results?
[17:27]	Rex Cronon:	there are some people that have at least 3 face lights
[17:27]	Andrew Linden goes and looks for them...
[17:27]	PulseBurst Flow:	Oh..don't bother Andrew
[17:27]	PulseBurst Flow:	just knowing that someone is looking into it
[17:27]	PulseBurst Flow:	is good enough
[17:27]	PulseBurst Flow:	now just have to light a fire under him. ;-D
[17:28]	Gaius Goodliffe:	All I know is, right now with the limit so low, you often get horrid blinking and flickering as the system jumps around changing which ones it uses and which it ignores.
[17:28]	PulseBurst Flow:	OK..so..what you are saying is that is probably coming?
[17:28]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes, it's bad..the blinking, etc.
[17:28]	PulseBurst Flow:	and you could do so much nice stuff.
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, more local lights are coming
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	along with real-time shadows
[17:28]	PulseBurst Flow:	just didn't know if computationally, there was a barrier
[17:28]	PulseBurst Flow:	OK
[17:28]	PulseBurst Flow:	great news. ;-D
[17:28]	PulseBurst Flow:	next question
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	here is one video: http://www.koinup.com/AyumiCassini/work/42821/
[17:29]	Gaius Goodliffe:	And there was much rejoicing. :)
[17:29]	PulseBurst Flow:	thanks
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	although, don't know if local lights are showcased there... I'll have to look more
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	search for "shadows in SL" or something like that
[17:29]	PulseBurst Flow:	cool..well, I'll wait, and now don't have to do a Jira feature request
[17:30]	PulseBurst Flow:	thanks
[17:30]	PulseBurst Flow:	ok..now...
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	here is the NWN article: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/06/the-hidden-shad.html
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	next question
[17:30]	PulseBurst Flow:	another issue...
[17:30]	PulseBurst Flow:	Land..
[17:30]	PulseBurst Flow:	Land owners..can eject people....
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	(btw, Runitai Linden holds his own office hours and would be a good person to ask about local light limitations and timeline of his projects)
[17:30]	PulseBurst Flow:	I have some land..and club next door..he invites campers..
[17:31]	PulseBurst Flow:	They come and are AFK
[17:31]	PulseBurst Flow:	and periodically he ejects them.
[17:31]	PulseBurst Flow:	where they dance AFK all day on my land
[17:31]	PulseBurst Flow:	and drag down server
[17:31]	PulseBurst Flow:	Eject should send Home
[17:31]	PulseBurst Flow:	Or...
[17:31]	PulseBurst Flow:	Should be "send home" on wheel menu
[17:31]	PulseBurst Flow:	Or...
[17:32]	PulseBurst Flow:	Land settings should have checkbox "don't allow ejected avatars from neighboring land"
[17:32]	PulseBurst Flow:	to land
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps, or maybe we should provide features that would allow you to have better control over your own land
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	There is another project that some are starting to think about in LL... how to better balance CPU resources on a region
[17:33]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hmm... you could probably detect and auto-eject the AFK people from your land.
[17:33]	PulseBurst Flow:	I contacted Support..and they suggested I turn on Damage, and shoot the AFK dancing avatars
[17:33]	Gaius Goodliffe:	lol
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	in particular script resources, but perhaps other resources will follow
[17:33]	PulseBurst Flow:	Yes, I have thought of several scripted solutions..but the burden should not be on me..for someone elses Ejects
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	some fraction of script resources will be given to land owners, and also a per-avatar allocation too
[17:34]	PulseBurst Flow:	And I leave the land open to public..so dont want to hassle innocent visitors
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	Babbage Linden is the main guy thinking about that project, but perhaps Simon is also in the loop on it.
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	We-ell... the problem is your preferences about your land.
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	So the solution, it seems to me, would be to help you enforce your preferences about your land.
[17:35]	Simon Linden:	I'm not involved, but have heard Kelly talking about it
[17:35]	PulseBurst Flow:	OK..well..that would be an interesting idea Andrew..resource allocation..but then again..sometimes..like an occasional event...unused sim resources should be available to neighbors/
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	Babbage is thinking about how to distribute unused resources when they are available.
[17:36]	PulseBurst Flow:	Yes..enforcement..now the Avatars land next to a curve in a road I built, I call it dead man's curve..
[17:36]	PulseBurst Flow:	with these lifeless avatars
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	PulsBurst, your main complaint about the campers is that they use up resources?
[17:36]	PulseBurst Flow:	who I can shoot.
[17:36]	Gaius Goodliffe:	hehe
[17:36]	Simon Linden:	Maybe you can build a pit for them :)
[17:37]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I'd just use llGetAgentInfo to see if they're AGENT_AWAY.
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	Are you concerned only about when you are around? Or also when you are not... perhaps for the sake of other land owners in the region?
[17:37]	Rex Cronon:	u know u can push them to the next sim:)
[17:37]	PulseBurst Flow:	Well, andrew..the main complaint...is that they are all over the land like litter
[17:37]	PulseBurst Flow:	I have like 10 in a little area..
[17:37]	PulseBurst Flow:	dancing away..
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	This raises hydra issue of "bots", and what to do about them
[17:37]	PulseBurst Flow:	and they also use resources
[17:37]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes..
[17:37]	PulseBurst Flow:	bots..
[17:37]	PulseBurst Flow:	was my next questoin
[17:37]	PulseBurst Flow:	;-D
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	Philip Linden recently had an internal meeting/discussion about the "bot problem"
[17:38]	PulseBurst Flow:	now the club owner uses bots..and cannot even visit sim..when it is full
[17:38]	Rex Cronon:	seems, that quite a few people don't like it when stores use like 70 bots to raise traffic
[17:38]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes, it is destroying mainland
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	One might think we should crack down on bots
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	however... there is an arms race there... it will only get harder and harder to detect real bots if we start discriminating against them
[17:39]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The occasional bot with a job to do isn't a bad thing, either. It's just the armies of camp-bots.
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	meanwhile, there are some cool things that may be possible with bots...
[17:40]	PulseBurst Flow:	a nearby store has 30+ bots hogging server resources..just sitting there gaming the traffic system
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	right, so it was suggested (although few concrete ideas were put forth) to try to reduce the *need* for armies of camp bots
[17:40]	PulseBurst Flow:	on a 512
[17:40]	PulseBurst Flow:	it is not fair at all
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	that is, make it less useful to have an army of people at your locations
[17:40]	Sindy Tsure wonders who messed with her clock to make her late..
[17:41]	Simon Linden:	PulseBurst - where is this land?
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	we need to remove the traffice/dwell computation system
[17:41]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes..the traffic incentive..that is the cause of a lot of the problems
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, for reference, which region are we talking about?
[17:41]	PulseBurst Flow:	otherwise, I suppose..there are uses for bots
[17:42]	PulseBurst Flow:	poidor.
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, does Philip Linden hold office hours yet?
[17:42]	PulseBurst Flow:	lumoli
[17:42]	Simon Linden:	I don't think so
[17:42]	Sindy Tsure just came from talking to her neighbor, who sadly lives in a mainland sim that's full 24/7 because of a sex club on 4k of land.. i won't miss traffic much
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	Probably not... but if he did that would be a good place to bring up bot discussions. Philip is very interested about the bot problem right now.
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect some work is going to be done about the traffic system, but I'm not personally involved in that project
[17:43]	PulseBurst Flow:	OK..that leads to the question "Who decides such things at LL?
[17:44]	Sindy Tsure:	it does have it's uses.. it wouldn't be a bad idea if it wasn't abused so badly.. :(
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	Armies of traffic bots are used for two reasons... (1) we have a dwell system that ranks locations and (2) the green-dot-effect on the map draws curious travellers
[17:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hmmm
[17:45]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes.
[17:45]	PulseBurst Flow:	that's why andrew
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	Does anyone here have ideas on how to solve the camp-bot problem?
[17:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	(You could just make green objects on your land of the appropriate appearance. :)
[17:45]	Rex Cronon:	give them a turing test:)
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	we could eliminate (1) say, but what about (2)?
[17:45]	Sindy Tsure:	hire some rabid dogs for the gteam?
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	any ideas on how we could reduce the green-dot-effect? Should we?
[17:46]	Sindy Tsure does not think so
[17:46]	PulseBurst Flow:	Well, maybe eliminating 1) would lower the incentive for abuse..
[17:46]	Sindy Tsure:	if people are looking for a crowd, it's a very valid thing
[17:46]	PulseBurst Flow:	don't know about 2) cause green dots are helpful
[17:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Maybe make it less pronounced. A green dot with a small number next to it would give the same info without standing out so much.
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	No, I think that if (2) still lends advantages then some land owners will continue the practice.
[17:46]	PulseBurst Flow:	OK..well
[17:46]	PulseBurst Flow:	how about this..
[17:46]	Sindy Tsure:	practice = abuse
[17:46]	PulseBurst Flow:	I have an idea..
[17:47]	PulseBurst Flow:	might not be feasible
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	yes Sindy, that idea was mentioned internally
[17:47]	Sindy Tsure:	the rabid dog idea??
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	personally I'm in favor of "technical solutions" rather than policy changes
[17:47]	PulseBurst Flow:	but...welll...these bots and campers..are somewhat idle..no chatting, IMs, or moving around...if system can identify...then dot have green dot for them.
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	however, ripping out the dwell system would be a feature change, and hence would count as a technical solution in my book
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	that is, there is real code to be deleted
[17:48]	PulseBurst Flow:	don't
[17:48]	PulseBurst Flow:	so..no green dot for idle avatars
[17:48]	Sindy Tsure:	a lot of the problem is that LL (rightly) doesn't want to get in an arms race with the bot coders
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	As I hinted to... there is a problem with trying to write "bot detection algorithms"...
[17:48]	Simon Linden:	Well, that's the start of the arms race - you'd have bots that occasionally send out some random chat
[17:48]	Sindy Tsure nods
[17:49]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes..ok..there are problems..and yes..could be arms race..what's alternative? do nothing?
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	it produces an arms race -- bot creators will just write clever bot-obfuscation algorthms
[17:49]	PulseBurst Flow:	let bots ruin mainland at clubs/stores/ etc.
[17:49]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It wouldn't be hard to make a bot that's indistinguishable from your average n00b. ;)
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not sure what the solution is... any ideas?
[17:49]	PulseBurst Flow:	no, I don't have an answer
[17:49]	Simon Linden:	I (personally) think we should get rid of the traffic/dwell usage
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	well, one idea is to provide NPC's
[17:50]	PulseBurst Flow:	it is a hard proble
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	an NPC = non-player character
[17:50]	PulseBurst Flow:	but getting rid of traffic..is a good frist step
[17:50]	Rex Cronon:	how about if u tell those that use them, to register the bots, and if they don't abuse, their bots won't have to spammed with requests to prove their r not bots:)
[17:50]	PulseBurst Flow:	green dots..harder problem
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	and is distinct from a bot in the sense that the NPC would be a server-side feature
[17:50]	PulseBurst Flow:	but traffic system just rewards gaming
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	and might use less simulator CPU resources, since much info that is sent to bots unnecessarily could be culled out
[17:51]	Gaius Goodliffe:	mmm
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	also, NPC's could easily be labelled as such
[17:51]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Make bots use less resources...
[17:51]	Sindy Tsure:	that'd be great, especially if they didn't eat a client slot on a region, for stuff like IMs on mobile devices
[17:52]	Gaius Goodliffe:	So, instead of fighting bots, embrace them and make them more sim-friendly.
[17:52]	Sindy Tsure:	camp/trafficbot makers would still try to fake a real person, tho
[17:52]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. ty, gaius.. i get it now :)
[17:52]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yeah, dwell would have to go in any case.
[17:52]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes..the rewards for high traffic are too much of a lure..
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	right, I don't think it would be technically hard to solve (1)
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	so let's assume that it will be done
[17:53]	Sindy Tsure:	tho i don't think that'd solve the sim-full-of-bots problem.. they'd still eat everything they could get away with
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	and focus on the harder question... (2)
[17:53]	PulseBurst Flow:	ok. ;-D
[17:53]	PulseBurst Flow:	well that is good news..
[17:54]	Sindy Tsure hopes somebody else will start with a great idea 'cause i have nothing
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	ack... brb...
[17:55]	PulseBurst Flow:	by the way, there is a contentious Jira issue on the topic
[17:55]	PulseBurst Flow:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1052
[17:55]	Simon Linden:	yeah, it's a hard problem ... there have been some large internal discussion lately about it as well
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	back
[17:55]	PulseBurst Flow:	Title: Meta-issue: Traffic (get rid of it, replace it, supplement it or change it)
[17:56]	Sindy Tsure:	even if traffic goes away, there's still the "green dots attract people looking for a crowd" issue?
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	how might we change the visualization of avatar crowds in the map that would reduce the green-dot effect?
[17:56]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes, that was issue #2 Andrew was talking about
[17:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Remove the green dots? :)
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	even if we eliminated green-dot crowds.. a few club owners might like to keep some bots around as ambiance for their one or two real customers
[17:57]	PulseBurst Flow:	btw andrew..the green dots seem offset where people really are on the map...another issue
[17:57]	Rex Cronon:	u change the color from green to red
[17:57]	Gaius Goodliffe:	lol
[17:57]	PulseBurst Flow:	:)
[17:57]	PulseBurst Flow:	oh..not Red and Yellow Rex?
[17:57]	Rex Cronon:	when it get to red the sim is full
[17:57]	Sindy Tsure:	i actually like that idea.. make the color change by sim load..
[17:58]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yeah, the green dots don't actually show someone's actual location anyway. At least on the world map. I'd love it if they just went away, if it would make that map load quicker. Green dots on the minimap are enough, I think.
[17:59]	Sindy Tsure:	people see green, it's a party starting.. they see yellow, it's a laggy party underway.. they see red, it's a full house they can't get into
[17:59]	Sindy Tsure:	you can disable that, gaius - there's a checkbox
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	Doug Linden and I believe we will eventually be able to drastically increase the avatar density on each region -- that is reduce the CPU cost per avatar until you could have 200+ avatars in each region and little to no associated lag
[17:59]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[17:59]	Sindy Tsure blinks
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	but even if we did that... might people just make larger bot armies?
[18:00]	Sindy Tsure:	that would seriously not suck, andrew
[18:00]	Rex Cronon:	and when u look over the map u get very fast an idea how are sims filled
[18:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I think you need to have some sort of diminishing returns...
[18:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Where twice as many avatars only increases the "pile" size by one, for instance...
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	ah, a nonlinear effect on the green-dot crowd number
[18:01]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[18:01]	Sindy Tsure:	wouldn't people just adjust their thinking to what 1-dot means?
[18:01]	Sindy Tsure:	"so.. 5 dots means about 20 people"
[18:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Right -- but the point being, adding 50 new campers when you already have 50 doesn't do much for you then.
[18:01]	Sindy Tsure:	wb, simon!
[18:02]	Simon Linden:	OH, just a little random teleporting ... need to watch where I click :)
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	well, it wouldn't be done in a linear way... 5 dots = 5 people, 10 dots = 15 people, 20 dots = 35 people
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	meh... people could still map the curves in their head and read the map just fine
[18:03]	PulseBurst Flow:	Andrew..could LL perhaps limit bots at a particular SIM coming from same IP address?
[18:03]	Sindy Tsure:	how about limiting the number of dots a parcel can have by the parcel size?
[18:03]	Rex Cronon:	i really think that a single color dot is more feasible
[18:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Just make it a bar which rises or falls in height, so as not to confuse people into thinking it's an actual count.
[18:03]	Simon Linden:	I wonder if we could detect bots based on some network info - their IP address or something
[18:03]	PulseBurst Flow:	Simon..I just said that. ;-D
[18:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Maybe a little stick figure of a person that gets bigger or smaller based on the size of the crowd.
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	PulsBurst, I think IP address detection would just be a round of the arms race
[18:03]	PulseBurst Flow:	Yes.. ok. :(
[18:04]	Simon Linden:	uh, right
[18:04]	Sindy Tsure:	in case it got missed.. [18:03] You: how about limiting the number of dots a parcel can have by the parcel size?
[18:04]	Sindy Tsure:	if you own a whole region and want to fill it with bots, go for it
[18:04]	Rex Cronon:	each map has a circle in in its center, as more people are in, the circle grows and changes color
[18:04]	Sindy Tsure:	but if you only own 1/16th, you can only get so many dots on it
[18:05]	PulseBurst Flow:	That is a possible solution Sindy...allocate Avatar limits to a parcel..like you do prims
[18:05]	Simon Linden:	I have to run, but this was really interesting. Thanks everyone for coming
[18:05]	Sindy Tsure:	bye, Simon!
[18:05]	Rex Cronon:	bye simon
[18:05]	PulseBurst Flow:	Bye Simon
[18:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Thank you Simon
[18:05]	Simon Linden:	See you next time...
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I'm going to have to go soon too.
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think we'll be able to come up with all the solutions for the bot problem today
[18:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Some interesting ideas, though...
[18:05]	Sindy Tsure:	limiting the avatars that can be there is harder.. i own 1/3rd of my home region but most visitors end up on a 4k parcel
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	so I'm sure the topic will come up again
[18:05]	PulseBurst Flow:	Of course..it's a difficult problem..
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	and it is being discussed internally too
[18:06]	PulseBurst Flow:	but at some point need to stop discussing..and do *something*
[18:06]	PulseBurst Flow:	just don't know what. ;-p
[18:06]	PulseBurst Flow:	D
[18:06]	Sindy Tsure:	heh
[18:06]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Doing nothing is better than doing the wrong thing. :)
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	one of the lesser known bot problems is that some bots don't use our SL protocol quite right
[18:06]	Sindy Tsure really likes that last idea.. i may jira it..
[18:06]	PulseBurst Flow:	not sure about that Gaius..
[18:06]	PulseBurst Flow:	its really bad in some areas
[18:07]	Sindy Tsure:	really, andrew? that causes problems?
[18:07]	Sindy Tsure:	or allows detection?
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	so their behaviors violate some assumptions the SL simulators make, which can cause hidden and less-intuitive resource leaks
[18:07]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yes, but because a problem is bad doesn't justify making it worse.
[18:07]	Sindy Tsure:	oh..
[18:07]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes, true Gaius..but who is proposing making it worse? ;-D
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, but those are really just technical problems with the SL protocol -- they need to be fixed anyway
[18:08]	Sindy Tsure:	this is libsl stuff?
[18:08]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That's what "doing the wrong thing" results in...
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	since otherwise they are DOS exploits and similar annoyances
[18:08]	Sindy Tsure eeps
[18:08]	PulseBurst Flow:	That is why I propose "doing the right thing"
[18:08]	PulseBurst Flow:	;-D
[18:08]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, libSL just injects packets, often without much "state".
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	meanwhile, the SL client has quite a bit of "state" and tries to update the simulator as to its state
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	and also, some limitations are hardcoded into the SL client... you have to hack it to send the wrong packets
[18:09]	Sindy Tsure:	introducing: megaprims!
[18:10]	Andrew Linden:	ugh... who said "megaprims"?
[18:10]	Sindy Tsure points. Red did!
[18:10]	PulseBurst Flow:	That was my next question too. ;-D
[18:10]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Part of that is a documentation issue -- the protocol is hard to get right if you're purely reverse-engineering.
[18:10]	Andrew Linden:	on that note... time to go! ;-)
[18:10]	Andrew Linden:	hehe
[18:10]	PulseBurst Flow:	lol
[18:10]	Gaius Goodliffe:	hehehe
[18:10]	Sindy Tsure:	cya, andrew!
[18:10]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[18:10]	PulseBurst Flow:	Thanks Andrew
[18:10]	Andrew Linden:	yes, megaprims are a good case in point
[18:10]	Andrew Linden:	thanks for coming everyone
[18:10]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Thank you Andrew.
[18:10]	PulseBurst Flow:	see you
[18:11]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Enjoy your Independence Day !
[18:11]	Sindy Tsure:	w00t!
[18:11]	Sindy Tsure:	cya, all!
[18:11]	Rex Cronon:	have a nice holliday
[18:11]	PulseBurst Flow:	bye all.
[18:11]	Rex Cronon:	bye sindy
[18:11]	Gaius Goodliffe must find something to blow up.