User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 07 08

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:01]	Teleport completed from http://slurl.com/secondlife/Linden%20Lab%20HQ%201/206/135/104
[11:01]	Chair: Press Page Up to move chair up, or Page Down to move chair down
[11:01]	Cummere Mayo:	hello andrew
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Hello everyone.
[11:02]	Dimitrio Lewis:	hi Andrew :)
[11:02]	Creem Pye:	howdy
[11:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	WB, Andrew, I heard you were back
[11:02]	Cummere Mayo:	hope youre vacation was good?
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I was back last week actually, but it was hectic.
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Yes vacation was nice... I visited friends and family in Portland OR
[11:03]	Cummere Mayo:	ooh nice
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	and made a pilgrimage to Voodoo Doughnuts (voodoodoughnuts.com)
[11:04]	Creem Pye:	hm a domain squatter took it
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler would try: http://www.voodoodonuts.com ?
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	oh really? thanks for the correct link
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:05]	Creem Pye:	hi rex
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, we happened to swing by their second location (not listed on the page) in the evening when they were liquidating their morning batch...
[11:05]	Cummere Mayo:	hmm neither of those links worked for me but *shrugs*
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi, why is this sim soooo black?
[11:06]	Creem Pye:	ditto, cumere
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	I got a 5 gallon bucket of doughnuts for $5
[11:06]	Cummere Mayo:	wow!
[11:06]	Creem Pye:	haha nice
[11:06]	Cummere Mayo:	shame i dont live near portland !
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	yeah... the correct link is really http://voodoodoughnut.com
[11:06]	Cummere Mayo:	Ild probably fit the sterotype of my old profession *giggles*
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	anyway... announcements
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	I really am working on SVC-2511 this week
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	which is the bug about bullets not hitting the avatar right
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	I've already tackled it a bit without results. Now I need to regress until I can narrow in on the changes that broke it.
[11:08]	Cummere Mayo:	yay
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Other than that... I was going to try to take a swing at some languishing vehicle bugs (some motorcycles that hit prim seams)
[11:09]	Rex Cronon:	the ability of avatars to walk inside prims that are not hollow, is not a bug?
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, that is a bug... I'm sure a few people have already taken advantage of it as a misfeature
[11:09]	Arawn Spitteler fell through a bridge, yesterday, but it seemed to be a viewer problem. I want to learn Viewer Hacking, to exploit that.
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	but the fix for it is... harder than it might first seem
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	to fix it I need to NOT use Havok's MeshShape class
[11:10]	Rex Cronon:	the weird thing is that physical prims get pushed out while avatars have no problem staying in:)
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	which is the only shape that can handle concavity
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	so the only way to fix the problem is to replace concave meshes with a bunch of convex pieces that together have the same shape
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Oh Rex, no that is something else... there is special magic for avatar penetration for objects in general
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	the special handling is to reduce some problems with caging and entrapment of avatars
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	is that feature breaking stuff?
[11:12]	Creem Pye:	hmmm you'd need lots of convex meshes to form something like a hollow sphere - I wonder if the performance would be ok
[11:12]	Rex Cronon:	there used to be this follower called "leviatate" that was making people float upwards
[11:12]	Rex Cronon:	i am not sure if it works anylonger
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	"levitate"
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	creem, some hollow shapes could simply use the MeshShape actually... if the shell was very thin then the MeshShape is probably an ok class to use
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Right Rex, the avatar-object penetration defense would have nerfed that levitator
[11:13]	Cummere Mayo:	i havent had any trouble with hollow shperes or cylindars
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	If you make a big hollow box and put your avatar inside...
[11:14]	Cummere Mayo:	*spheres
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	then you will collide with the inside surface of the box
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	so the box is like a simple cage
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	That's most buildings
[11:14]	Cummere Mayo:	hello simon :)
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Simon
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	Hi everyone
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	however, if you make a big convex box and put your avatar inside... after about 1 second your avatar will cease to collide with said box
[11:15]	Rex Cronon:	hi simon
[11:15]	Dimitrio Lewis:	hi Simon :)
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	and you can pass right through... until you stop penetrating
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	at which point collisions magically start happening again
[11:15]	Cummere Mayo:	sounds tricky.
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	So Rex, what I'm wondering is, what sort of problems is that anti-avatar-penetration code causing, if any?
[11:16]	Cummere Mayo:	ok silly question but that avitar penetration thing... any chance -that- could be what broke 2511?
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	since you mentioned it as a bug, I think
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere, that was one of the features I disabled to check to see if it was causing SVC-2511 -- it is not the culprit
[11:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, if I push up, inder a Mega Arch Bridge, I should push through?
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	a few days ago i was levitated, without any push, so i got curious and tried to see if avatars inside objects were still being pushed out
[11:17]	Cummere Mayo:	well thougth i would ask *shrugs*
[11:18]	Cummere Mayo:	if you need a test dummy to help fix 2511 feel free to bester me andrew. this is a bug thats very clsoe to my heart cuase its put two friends out of business and two others closely
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, it is possible to penetrate objects in Havok4. If you make a big dynamic box, and drop it on top of small dynamic box sitting on a flat floor... the small box will penetrate into the big one, and then the penetration resolution system will kick in
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	and the small box will be pushed out
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	similarly, if an avatar is moving fast enough it can penetrate into objects, or through them
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	if it penetrates into a large convex prim, and is there long enough (1 second) then collisions between that object and the avatar will be disabled
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	such that the avatar can fly/walk out
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	I installed a walkway, to a pretty safe megaprim bridge, and began to fall through. It fixed with change of viewer, but was effecting others.
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	i have been falling through normal prims too
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, that sounds like a bug... but I don't have enough info.
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Fixed with change of viewer? That doesn't make sense.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	I did reduce the threshold required to disable collisions between the avatar and other objects... I reduced the depth required to trigger the behavior
[11:21]	Cummere Mayo:	um andrew 19.1.0 and 19.1.4 and 1.20.11 act VERY differant physics wise at times
[11:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think to two static megaprims were still colliding, but it would make for a wild viewer exploit.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if that cuased some content to allow the avatar to fall through
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	I wonder if there were changes in the viewer motion prediction code
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	If you have a reliable bit of content for which the avatar falls through then send me a landmark or something.
[11:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	The Megaprim Bridge at Spirit City, has become a tourist attraction.
[11:22]	Creem Pye:	does it happen most often while prims are still loading?
[11:22]	Opensource Obscure:	it was happening to me a minute ago, if i'm getting right the topic (checking....)
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	I don't see how the viewer prediction code could influence the collisions on the server.
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	sigh... megaprims
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	I don't either, but dont' see how the viewer version should make a difference
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, is the megaprim bridge having the problem?
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	it doesn't cross region boundaries, does it?
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	Was, but seemed to correct itself. I don't know if it was viewer version or logging back on.
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	No, for region boundaries, I'd use two prims
[11:25]	Cummere Mayo finds tping into her home point on her main char (not cumemre) in 1.19.1 will usually put her ontop of a prim in her store. on the rc she usually winds up hal inside it
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Interesting Cummere. There must be some slight difference in where the avatar is arriving on login there.
[11:25]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ah yes. I seem to often fall through the floor after a teleport on the RC
[11:26]	Arawn Spitteler:	When I started on the walkway, I seemed to've pushed myself through the bridge
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	I suppose the SL client has some say in the matter there... the arrival point.
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	i fall through prims right after i rezz them
[11:26]	Cummere Mayo:	yeah i have the same issue gaius or after a sim corssing. doesnt happen as much on the 1.19 viewrs. BUT i still prefer the rc
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	Months ago I remember working on a bug like that - the fix involved including avatar height in the exact arrival point calculations
[11:27]	Cummere Mayo:	but anyways going back to my store if i tp FLYING i dont land IN the prim *Shrugs*
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, the calculations you're talking about are server side though, right?
[11:28]	Simon Linden:	There was a difference between landmark locations and if that was a point at ground level vs. the postion of the AV, which is above the ground
[11:28]	Simon Linden:	Andrew - yes, it was all server side
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	although... the server must make assumptions as to what the client *means* when it suggests a location.
[11:29]	Cummere Mayo gave you Erinyse Fassions & More , Cicero (9, 141, 134).
[11:29]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It seems like it used to do it better. It's push you up into a room rather than turning the floor effectively phantom.
[11:29]	Cummere Mayo:	theres the lm. if either of you want to take over my avi and see if you can repo the acocunt is erinyse planer
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere, you gave me a landmark... but is it difficult to repro the problem? Do I need to walk in a certain spot?
[11:29]	Simon Linden:	Yes - is that where your foot would be, or the center of the avatar?
[11:29]	Cummere Mayo:	*account
[11:29]	Creem Pye:	hm are LMs stored as integer coordinates, or are they floats? maybe some rounding was introduced
[11:29]	Dimitrio Lewis:	that's an interesting point. I had the same problem, so I tended to create landmarks while hovering in the air, when handing them to other people.
[11:30]	Cummere Mayo:	and just tp her to her hope point
[11:30]	Creem Pye:	sometimes i've fallen through the floor while TPing home, but I figured that somebody raised the floor while I wasn't looking =P
[11:30]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hehe
[11:31]	Arawn Spitteler's fallen through the bridge, when rising from a prayer.
[11:31]	Cummere Mayo:	i wonder if this might somehow also be related to 2511
[11:31]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It seems like things turn phantom way too quick.
[11:31]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Or the push the avatar out code is way too slow -- take your pick.;
[11:31]	Simon Linden:	Creem - the positions are floats, and the differences are big enough so I'm pretty sure it's not a rounding issue
[11:31]	Cummere Mayo:	or else start phantom and dont turn physical soon enough
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	could be true Gaius, I'll revisit the thresholds there. I think it is pretty safe to dial them back
[11:32]	Cummere Mayo:	andrew, simon, either of you ahve permission to take over my eirnyse char to try that, jsut give me warning first cuase i am on her allot and might be doing something lol
[11:32]	Dimitrio Lewis:	does it affect resources if an avatar is stuck within a prim?
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Ok thanks Cummere. Probably won't need to do that.
[11:33]	Simon Linden:	I'm guessing it doesn't have much to do with a specific AV as well
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Dimitrio, the load on CPU is not too high. The special handling for avatars is mostly to remove a grief (cage) mode
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	I'd like to raise another subject...
[11:34]	Cummere Mayo:	no but the parcel is set up all av's but her tp into a differant poitn *shrugs* unless you can override
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	Some of you are regulars to these office hours, and a few more also attend other Linden office hours.
[11:35]	Cummere Mayo listens
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	I'm curious as to the motivations for attending... are the hours just fun and informative? Are you looking for influencing bug priorities? Or are you just looking for the latest bit of news?
[11:36]	Harleen Gretzky:	All of teh above, for me
[11:36]	Arawn Spitteler hopes to benefit the development of this universe.
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	I'm mostly curious because every once in a while I try to justify (in my own mind) the time I spend holding hours, especially now that Havok4 is winding down as a source of serious problems (yeah it still has some, but it is definitely winding down)
[11:37]	Creem Pye:	I started coming because I had specific vehicle problems in H4, but now I just come to be informed and influence priorities whenever you have votes on matters
[11:37]	Cummere Mayo:	a bit of all for me, BUT witht he caviot, that bridie has allowed me some special priveldges i try really hard NOT to abuse in regards to hers
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	the best way to find about things is from the horses mouth:)
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think it's good for Lindens to visit with Users, just to maintain their belief in Users.
[11:38]	Dimitrio Lewis:	All of those are true for me, and also I figure that community feedback must be important to y'all too.
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Also, I was thinking about moving one of my weekly hours to the Teen Grid... there aren't many Linden's holding hours there
[11:38]	Opensource Obscure:	i'm usually not interested in influencing bug priorities. at office hours i find information on SL inner workings that i don't find in any other place .. almost
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	however if I did that then my hours in the Main grid would be only once a week.
[11:39]	Cummere Mayo:	ild also add a motivation that you havent listed andrew. I like to get in a dialog with lindens about things. more then once a good office hour has altered the future of sl even if only in little ways
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, I definitely benefit from these hours by getting a feel for what issues are important, and empathy with SL Residents.
[11:39]	Rex Cronon:	if u fighting parties on the teen grid u might become very popular there:(
[11:39]	Rex Cronon:	oops :)
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	On the other hand, those little kittens might have some potential amongst them.
[11:40]	Rex Cronon:	typo
[11:40]	Rex Cronon:	if u hold*
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Dunno if I could get into a shoot-em-up in my TG office hours
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler wonders how SL Vehicles could impact the future of vehicle design
[11:41]	Creem Pye:	there might be some TG-specific content that gets affected by physics problems, so I'd say office hours there are worth a shot
[11:41]	Rex Cronon:	that is the best way to teach how h4 works:)
[11:41]	Opensource Obscure:	i'd love if i could have a notify for Lindens office hours. I miss many office hours because i forget about them. It's ok if you move hours to TG .. I just want to attend all hours on Main Grid
[11:41]	Gaius Goodliffe:	SL Vehicles ARE the future of vehicle design. ;)
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	You should see my Two Wheeler.
[11:42]	Creem Pye:	how many people use the teen grid compared to the main grid?
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	also, if anyone has advice on how to hold better hours, or how I should change things then by all means let me know, publicly or privately
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	oh, and somtimes the office hour is the best way to let lindens know about existing problems that they might not be aware of
[11:42]	Opensource Obscure:	(clarification: i meant a working , free , simple in-world notify system - unfortunately nost office hours are not 'events' so you don't have a notify)
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	ok on to other topics... anyone got a new issue for the table?
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Creeme, I think the teen grid is quite small compared to the main grid. Not sure what the ratio is.
[11:43]	Dimitrio Lewis:	so true, Opensource. I've been meaning to script something like that to remind you of events, dates, etc... I was hoping somebody else might do that first.
[11:43]	Arawn Spitteler's wondering: Is the Snail Race Issue showing up on my Future Cycle? Unstable propulsion?
[11:43]	Cummere Mayo:	andrew how hard would it be to adjust the grid to allow up to 25 x 25 x25 m objects as the standard?
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes... larger prims, or megaprim liberation.
[11:44]	Cummere Mayo:	I could do without megas, if it werent so impractical to use 10x10x10's
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	at first at least allow llsetprimpara to do it
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere, I speculated that we might be able to eventually allow for larger prims, even gradually to 20, 40, 80, etc
[11:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Even 20m would be a major boon.
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	LL held a meeting... and some other dev's joined the fray and it seemed harder than I thought... there was a lot of pushback as to problems client-side
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	the short of it is... I don't think we'll be boosting the default limits of prims, or supporting megaprims until a bunch of changes/fixes get in place
[11:45]	Creem Pye:	oh, I have a rather open question - do Mono scripts have a different collision event rate than LSL scripts?
[11:46]	Rex Cronon:	i think that at least 60% of all sl users, have more then one magaprim in their inventory
[11:46]	Cummere Mayo:	andrew could you or someone blog what changes / fixes would be needed to the main blog?
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	one of those changes is a solution to the "prim encroachment problem" where objects overlap from one parcel to their neighbors
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	but also some client-side changes will have to be done
[11:47]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I think a list of client-side issues would be useful, especially with an open source client. We could start looking and submitting patches...
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere, it might be possible... I don't think solutions to megaprims are on the really short list right now... we're struggling with some other issues
[11:47]	Cummere Mayo thinks a good blog and then a place (easier then jira) where peopel could go to vote on if those changes are worth it might be a good idea to think about
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	I mentioned before in these hours that Qarl was working on some object-vs-parcel collision queries that could help solve the "prim encroachment problem"
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	however that little project is on hold momentarily
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere, I've been thinking about adding a wiki page about it
[11:49]	Dimitrio Lewis:	That prim encroachment issue got me thinking that maybe the overlap should be visible for a while prior to allowing objects to be returned. I bet there's a lot of content from 2003 and later that was simply built over the borders, and some of it could be really historic, so having a chance to fix things before allowing instant return would be good.
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	however, I'd need more consensus from other LL dev's and I'm just swamped... it would be hard to fit that stuff in right now
[11:50]	Cummere Mayo:	I understand.
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Right Dimitrio, it is little edge cases and feature creep like that which slows the project down, but would have to be addressed.
[11:50]	ErPiotta71 Maximus:	Excuse me so much, I urgency! Sorry. bye bye
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Lesse... someone had a question about collision rates in MONO
[11:51]	Rex Cronon:	bye erpiotta71
[11:51]	Creem Pye:	/me
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Creeme, I don't know if MONO collision rates are faster... but I doubt it. I think they are mostly throttled in some havok4-interface code before they get to the script engine
[11:51]	Creem Pye:	ah ok, thanks
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	on the other hand, it may be that bottleneck elimination in MONO could allow us to open those throttles somewhat
[11:52]	Cummere Mayo:	heh i guess we'll see for sure in 3-4 weeks?
[11:52]	Andrew Linden wonders what content would break if we did that
[11:52]	Simon Linden:	... and if you do see a change in collision event rates, that's a bug we'd like to know about
[11:52]	Creem Pye:	sure thing
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Anybody have another topic? Did I miss any questions?
[11:53]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Any thoughts on sculptie physics re collision shape?
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler has some question, as to whether Users could throttle Control Events, but other user side throttles might be good also: If it changes under Mono, Recompilation is a developers option, yes?
[11:53]	Cummere Mayo:	well not a topic, but andrew, is there anything yould like me to keep an eye out for when im at triage and just point straight to you?
[11:54]	Cummere Mayo:	or rather your team?
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Re sculptie collisions... interestingly Joe Linden mentioned yesterday that the pressure for an import/export pipeline for content is building
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	if we did have an import pipeline, then a lot of people would want arbitrary meshes
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	which would mean more sculpties
[11:54]	Creem Pye:	I personally don't have any issues with the collision shapes of my sculpts now (they're either fairly convex in the first place or too small to matter)
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	which would exacerbate the collision problems with sculpties
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	which means pressure for proper sculptie collisions is also increasing, although stealthily
[11:56]	Cummere Mayo thinks
[11:56]	Cummere Mayo:	*meh
[11:56]	Creem Pye:	would a spherical collision shape for a sculpt be lighter than the convex hull of a torus that you're using now?
[11:56]	Cummere Mayo thinks that LL needs to hire you more assitants
[11:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It would certainly be nice. Especially for those of us who build bigger vehicles.
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	At this point, Sculpties are set phantom, and their collisions are a seperate prim
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	Qarl Linden and I want to work on better collision approximations of sclpties, but don't know how that will fit into the schedule
[11:56]	Creem Pye:	per prim phantom would still be very nice =)
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	I'll probably be involved in that project, even if it is just as a consultant resource
[11:57]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hmmm yes.
[11:57]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I think I'd rate per-prim phantom as even more important.
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	Per Prim Phantom would allow non-collisive sculpties to be vehicle parts
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere, for the next few months I'm going to be involved more in the bug triage system
[11:57]	Creem Pye:	or if you could make a precise collision plane for a sculpt, maybe you could make single collision planes for high-prim objects as well?
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	so just send the bugs along the normal pipeline, I'll be involved
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	you're always welcome to send me IM or email about bugs you think are important. I'll either reply or not (most likely) but the odds are that I'll at least read them.
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Creem, the Havok MeshShape is basically "triangle soup", and is used for arbitaray concave shapes
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	each triangle is basically a plane segment of limited size
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Havok has some optimizations for sorting through the triangles quicly
[11:59]	Cummere Mayo:	ok didnt knwo if there was soemthing you wanted me to falg for you. aI certainly wouldnt like take them off the agenda but if there was soemthign you in particular wanted to know about
[11:59]	Cummere Mayo:	i could send you a nc with links
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	If it is a Havok or physics bug you can notify me about it directly. I'll either be working on it, or I'll know who should be (or is).
[12:00]	Cummere Mayo notes bypassing traige altogether would be an abuse of the system and thus wont do that)
[12:00]	Creem Pye:	MeshShape would be nice for avatars as well =)
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	On the other hand... I say all that, but I tend to get more contacts/messages than I can actually deal with.
[12:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oo, arbitrary avatar shapes would be nice.
[12:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	(getting deep into wish-list territory)
[12:01]	Creem Pye:	hehe
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	The avatar uses the ConvexVerticesShape, which is sorta like MeshShape, but with the assumption that the collidable shape is a convex hull
[12:01]	Cummere Mayo:	isnt that a prereq for beign a linden? constant capped mesages and 24 fewer hours in a day then you need?
[12:02]	Creem Pye:	i'd just like to see a meshless avatar option for starters
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	ConvexVerticesShape is faster than MeshShape
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, you mean an avatar shape with arms and legs
[12:02]	Creem Pye:	like the new "Ruth" (particle cloud), but without hte particles
[12:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hehe
[12:02]	Creem Pye:	then somebody could have an all-attachment avatar
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Or more approximate shapes when the avatar goes into some weird animation?
[12:03]	Creem Pye:	it would be a lot more efficient on the viewer end for certain avatars
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	can we use sculpties as avatar body parts:)
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	If attachments could be optionally set collidable... who here would use that?
[12:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Just have an option to completely eliminate the default avatar. Then no need for invisiprims.
[12:03]	Creem Pye:	sorry, I'm mixing up a few topics
[12:03]	Cummere Mayo has the feeling that would be really really difficult
[12:04]	Creem Pye:	plus it would break animations like this
[12:04]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oh look 10 FPS sim.
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Internally in LL we've kicked the idea around of allowing for custom default avatar meshes... different from the standard human shape
[12:04]	Creem Pye:	allowing for "invisible skin" would be a nice easy start
[12:05]	Andrew Linden:	although the discussion was more to do with the default start shape... so perhaps you could start with a different default, and the sliders would deviate from that
[12:05]	Cummere Mayo:	/mw qouls rather see the additional attachment points requested 2 years before she was "born" to sl
[12:05]	Cummere Mayo:	*me would
[12:05]	Cummere Mayo:	cant type today.... sorry im operating on 4 hours sleep and a 102 temp
[12:05]	Andrew Linden:	cummere, get some sleep
[12:05]	Dimitrio Lewis:	it used to be possible to hide your name tag with an invisiprim. is that still possible?
[12:06]	Rex Cronon:	drink some hot tea too
[12:06]	Cummere Mayo:	can.... andrew lol i tried :( ill feel better tomarrow
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	even if it were possible Dimitrio, it is a client-side feature
[12:06]	Creem Pye:	I dont' think it's possible now, Dimitro
[12:06]	Cummere Mayo:	no it jsut rasies the tag
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	client-side features cannot be viewed as "reliable". Eventually we'll have many different clients that do things differently.
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to have to go soon, the hour is up.
[12:08]	Rex Cronon:	it does hide name tags
[12:08]	Cummere Mayo:	thank you for putting up with me andrew
[12:08]	Cummere Mayo:	not for me rex
[12:08]	Dimitrio Lewis:	thanks, Andrew. This has been an interesting topic :)
[12:08]	Cummere Mayo:	i still see them
[12:08]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for coming
[12:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Did someone drop an invisiprim on Andrew?
[12:08]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks andew, i'll provide you with feedback
[12:08]	Opensource Obscure:	*andrew
[12:08]	Rex Cronon:	depends where u r looking from
[12:08]	Cummere Mayo:	actually its on the table
[12:08]	Creem Pye:	thanks for your time
[12:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	We're missing part of Creem, also
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... yeah I'm having rendering glitches
[12:09]	Creem Pye was disappointed that invisiprims stopped working on HUDs in windlight viewers
[12:09]	Simon Linden:	Bye all... see you next time
[12:09]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[12:09]	Opensource Obscure:	bye simon
[12:09]	Dimitrio Lewis:	A giant invisiprim would probably be as conspicuous against the sky as an avatar anyway ;)
[12:09]	Opensource Obscure:	bye all
[12:09]	Andrew Linden:	Yup, see you all later.
[12:09]	Creem Pye:	bye-
[12:09]	Rex Cronon:	have fun