User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 08 05

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:01]	Harleen Gretzky:	Don't they start at 11
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	5 minutes off, is not such a big deal:)
[11:01]	Harleen Gretzky:	Hi all
[11:01]	Harleen Gretzky:	HI Andrew
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	hello andrew
[11:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Punctuality is for people with nothing better to do. :)
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	hell
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi everbody
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... I'm getting some very strange glow effects on my client
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	For instance, the center of this sphere above the table... the glow blob is below, on the center of the table
[11:03]	Cummere Mayo:	hello alll
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	anyone else seeing that?
[11:03]	Harleen Gretzky:	nope, inside teh sphere for me
[11:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I see the glow inside the sphere
[11:03]	Lucias Carnell:	inside it here
[11:04]	Cummere Mayo:	nope the blob is in the sphere to me
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... ok well hopefully I won't crash out
[11:04]	Gaius Goodliffe:	You're using an *advanced* browser, aren't you? :)
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think so. This was some default install from Monday
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	However, I was using an advance viewer earlier today... I wonder if it changed my render settings into a funny state.
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	there, I toned down my render settings and everything is nice and drab
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	ok so... MONO should be on a test grid this week undergoing QA scrutiny. Dunno if it is open for the public or not, but I hope it is.
[11:07]	Creem Pye:	er, the new mono-specific grid? (not aditi)
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Regarding performance issues on Lost Angels I have no new news... there is a team that will be working on that stuff soon
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... what is the mono-specific grid's name? I'll see if I can find it.
[11:08]	Cummere Mayo:	heh well i added four MAINLAND sims that have the same issue too. and its a wecoem area... andrew
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	actually according to an email sent out on Monday MONO should be on ADITI grid
[11:09]	Jim Bunderfeld:	Andrew, do you know when teh excpected implementation of Mono is?
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps that is only on the MONO specific regions of that grid? Not sure
[11:10]	Creem Pye:	unless there are somesim crash modes triggered by mono, there's no reason not to have it on aditi =)
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	ah there it is... the mono-specific grid is damballah
[11:10]	Jim Bunderfeld:	How do you get to the mono grid?
[11:11]	Cummere Mayo blinks what is that ?
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	You can try to log in there... by pressing CTRL + SHIFT + G before you Connect, and selecting 'damballah' if it is available in the little pop-up
[11:11]	Jim Bunderfeld:	ok, thank you
[11:11]	Cummere Mayo is getting pelted by particles
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	alternatively, you could add " --grid=damballah" to the arguments of the SL client
[11:12]	Gaius Goodliffe:	You still need a special client to compile mono scripts, no?
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	however... damballah may be closed to the public sometimes -- I dunno its state
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	No, I don't think you need a special client. MONO scripts are compiled server-side I think
[11:13]	Creem Pye:	there might be a slight UI differnce in the script editor
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	actually u do need the mono viewer
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Oh ok. I'm probably uninformed regarding MONO viewer requirements.
[11:13]	Cummere Mayo:	according to every other department delaing with mono we will need the 1.21 mono enabled viewer
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	is called the aditi viewer
[11:14]	Cummere Mayo:	thoguh scripts will run on the others we cannot compile, view, or script them without
[11:14]	Lucias Carnell:	id hope so, or it would be a security risk to compile client side no ? as in i could just have it upload my own "exploited" byte code?
[11:14]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That's how it works pre-mono. :)
[11:14]	Jim Bunderfeld:	Andrew
[11:14]	Jim Bunderfeld:	About Mono
[11:15]	JayR Cela:	end
[11:15]	Rex Cronon:	?
[11:15]	Jim Bunderfeld:	So is the interpretor written in Mono, are can we actually use bits of C# code? (sorry no experience with the new mono scripting as of yet)
[11:15]	Jim Bunderfeld:	are = or sorry
[11:15]	JayR Cela:	hello everyone / Hi Rex :_)
[11:15]	Lucias Carnell:	its still using lsl2 jim
[11:15]	Jim Bunderfeld:	ok
[11:15]	Rex Cronon:	hi jayr
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	Jim, my knowledge of the MONO project is limited. Babbage Linden is really the guy you want to talk to, however he is on vacation this week, I think.
[11:16]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Other languages are a "down the road" feature.
[11:16]	Lucias Carnell:	just it compiles to a seperate virtual machine thats ran on the server.
[11:16]	Jim Bunderfeld:	Good for him :p
[11:16]	JayR Cela:	I hear C# may be available soon ? is this true ?
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	MONO is a new script engine, but you can use old LSL scripts, but compile them under MONO
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	I think for a while you get to choose which script engine you want to use... legacy or MONO
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	There's still only the one input language... 'LSL'
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	however, eventually we'll migrate to MONO (I think that is how it is going to work)
[11:17]	Lucias Carnell:	Using legacy would be pointless..
[11:17]	Gaius Goodliffe:	JayR: I believe that's just speculation, but I also suspect it's true speculation. :)
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	well, the reason legacy would be supported would be to handle the case where someone's Very Special content happens to be broken under MONO
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	that's how I thought it was going to work, but I could be out of date
[11:18]	JayR Cela:	I am confused / Mono has been talked about for over a year and a half / and now there is speculation of C# / someone needs to get a grip on this situation
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	Any one have news on when general MONO testing will be available on preview grid?
[11:18]	Jim Bunderfeld:	Andrew, when that happens will LSL2 scripts still be able to run natively, or will LL make a mass recompiling of the code?
[11:18]	Lucias Carnell:	last i checked the only reason the old virtual machine wa going to be in existance was for scripts where the asset server only contains compiled byte code, not a plain text version.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Babbage would like to allow SL scripts to be written in C#, so he is kinda working on that
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	in fact, I think he had a demo of it working internally
[11:19]	Gaius Goodliffe:	LL can't mass recompile code. Some of the old code is only in bytecode form only.
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	u can go right now on beta with the right viewer and compile your scripts using mono
[11:19]	Lucias Carnell would kill for IronPython Support ;o
[11:19]	JayR Cela:	Rex will Client 1.20 work there ?
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mono_beta_FAQ
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	Gaius, there was indeed a plan to mass-recompile legacy LSL code. Dunno what the state of that is.
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	u need the aditi client
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	Thats all the basic MONO info..
[11:19]	Gaius Goodliffe is waiting for INTERCAL support. ;)
[11:19]	Creem Pye:	SecondLife_i686_1_20_6_87323_ADITI_MONO is the latest mono-enabled viewer, afaik
[11:19]	JayR Cela:	Rex / TY :_)
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	np
[11:20]	Lucias Carnell:	Actually, Surely some form of ByteCode to Plain Text decompiler could be found ala reflector style ?
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	AFK...............................
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	afk for a a few minutes
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	Aditi only has limited sims enabled for MONO, and no permanent rezzing areas. Testing is impractical
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Alas, my knowledge of the MONO project is lacking. I've been too busy with other stuff to keep up to date on it.
[11:21]	Jim Bunderfeld:	hehe
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, Babbage claims that the MONO project hasn't seen a major bug in about a month or more.
[11:21]	Jim Bunderfeld:	Andrew, this is probably an oldie question, but since you are the "physics linden" what ever happened to joints and hinges?
[11:21]	Lucias Carnell:	i just want the abilty to #include :/
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	I think they are going to be pulling particular regions over for testing
[11:22]	Creem Pye:	like hierarchical linking?
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: If one tests under restricted condittion one can avoid all kinds of bugs :)
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	it might be enough testing... some problems will probably crop up when it is pushed out on the main grid.
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Kitto, however compare that to Havok4 where we shipped with known major bugs
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	I think in this case Babbage claims no known major bugs.
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	It's ok. I am very used to seeing LL shoot self in foot :)
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think I have anymore feet to shoot. I'm aiming for the knee.
[11:24]	Gaius Goodliffe:	hee
[11:24]	Lucias Carnell:	lol
[11:24]	JayR Cela:	lol
[11:24]	Gaius Goodliffe wears kevlar shoes.
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	Speaking of knees... did word of the strange Sim Lag reach Andrew?
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	lessee, I don't think I've got any more announcements. The table topics are wide open.
[11:25]	Suzanna Soyinka:	Yes, it has
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	(sim on its knees)
[11:25]	JayR Cela:	break his knee caps Mugsy :_)))
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	"strange sim lag"? No I don't recall it
[11:25]	Suzanna Soyinka:	Andrew do you know why my sim is on Aditi? Nobody else does.
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	OK then: The case of 'cemetery sim' ?
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	unless you're talking about Lost Angles?
[11:25]	Suzanna Soyinka:	No we're talking about the whole grid, but yes Lost Angels is affected
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Suzanna, which region would that be?
[11:26]	Lucias Carnell:	so how far does ll ever plan on taking sl physics, ever likely to see things like soft body dynamics and such in the very very distannt future ? or is our current level of primitive physics going to be pretty much all we see ?
[11:26]	Suzanna Soyinka:	Lost Angels.
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Suzanna, I'm sure someone brought it up for performance testing, however how long ago I don't know.
[11:26]	Cummere Mayo:	heh even one of the WELCOME areas of sl is affected. i have watched a welcoem area choke down to about 5 fps
[11:26]	Creem Pye:	ragdoll physics on avatars would be really cool, but I can't see that happening without breaking most of the animation system that's in place
[11:26]	Suzanna Soyinka:	It was saturday, I had to go terminate a bunch of vendors that were spamming me because of dual network instances
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	oh really? What communication mode were they using to spam?
[11:27]	Suzanna Soyinka:	IM2Email, it happened before when we put LA on Aditi to help with Havok 4
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	back
[11:28]	Lucias Carnell:	rag doll physics would have to disable all animations and be a permission based event idguess :/
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	outgoing lEmail() is disabled on the test grids, but yes IM-to-email still works
[11:28]	Suzanna Soyinka:	I don't mean to take this to the vanguard here but the lag thats affecting Second Life regions with more than 30 users in them isn't just a problem in Lost Angels, its a problem all over the grid. As Cummere is saying even busy 4 sim welcome areas are affected.
[11:29]	Suzanna Soyinka:	I've been to regions with 4000 objects out that have 70 agents in them and its happening there too
[11:29]	Creem Pye:	Suzanna, did you notice what was contributing to lag the most? Was "sim time (other)" very large, like it is in los angels?
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... I think we'll be wanting to bring lost angles up again in the future -- perhaps update its content state which would require you to disable content again
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	Cemetery sim is a full sim, has very low script, avatar, object content, yet lags continuously at TD =0.8. The Stats panel shows no obvious cause. The owners are Japanese, communications with them is difficult.
[11:29]	JayR Cela:	I agree/ i was at SweetHearts jazz club the other night / took 20 minutes for the place to rezz
[11:29]	Suzanna Soyinka:	Exactly Kitto, thats exactly what I'm talking about.
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	I'll make a note of that -- we'll have to solve that problem sometime soon
[11:30]	Suzanna Soyinka:	Very soon its been going on since the end of April
[11:30]	JayR Cela:	I admit the design of the build has a lot to do with it / but that is ridicolous
[11:30]	Suzanna Soyinka:	Its degraded service to the point of making a busy region effective as an IRC chat room and thats a bit it.
[11:30]	Kitto Flora:	This AM I got hold of the owner and checked an inetersting object. All the lag is caused by a 'Crow rezzer' - this one object seems to inflict a heavy load that does not show up in Stats.
[11:30]	Suzanna Soyinka:	Previous to May, Lost Angels could remain stable at 0.95 - 099 with up to 60 users in it.
[11:31]	Suzanna Soyinka:	After May, 35 users = 0.80, its like clockwork
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, are you still talking about Cemetary? Are you saying it is script lag, but low script/object count?
[11:32]	Andrew Linden takes a note about it.
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, yes, and yes
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	Its an object that causes TD lag but no other obvious stat problem
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Lessee... scrolling back -- no soft-body collisions and rag-doll are far in the future.
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, theres a Notecard with my notes on it
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	we just have so much stuff to do right now we can't focus on that kind of shiny
[11:33]	Lucias Carnell:	Oh that i can imagine
[11:33]	Lucias Carnell:	thus my far far in the future comment,
[11:33]	Lucias Carnell:	ijust wondered if it was something that wouldever be considered in the future.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Ah I see the notecard Kitto, thanks.
[11:34]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I have a question -- why do sim slow downs, both in normal sims and openspaces, so often hit a magic number of TD 22%/FPS 10 exactly? It's like a magic number that comes up very often during sim lag spikes. They'll be running 99-100%, then drop to 22% for a few seconds to half a minute, then pop back to 99-100% again. Mystery-lag I understand, as sims do share boxes with other sims, but I always found that specific, exact 10 FPS figure that always pops up curious.
[11:34]	Lucias Carnell:	/mehas a thing for trying to makesoft body simulated fluids at the moment ;o
[11:34]	Suzanna Soyinka:	Good question Gaius
[11:34]	Suzanna Soyinka:	I've noticed the math there too
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	Simon might be able to answer that question about 22% FPS.
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	I think the physics engine goes into some special code if performance drags down to 10 FPS
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, I don't know of anything that would make a number 'stick' like that
[11:35]	Lucias Carnell:	Id assume some kind of emergency limit to stop a total sim death
[11:35]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I should note those specific numbers came up under H1 too.
[11:35]	Suzanna Soyinka:	Its not that they stick its that they're EXACTLY predictable to agent count
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, doesn't the RCCS (Runtime Collision Control System) kick in around there?
[11:35]	Lucias Carnell:	wait the sim code has no omg wtf somethings going horribly wrong slow things down while we catch up functions ?
[11:35]	Suzanna Soyinka:	There is a very predictable pattern
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	There are limits in the physics engine where we start to simplify the shapes used (Level Of Detail)
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... this table appears to have gone unstable.
[11:36]	SIMAS Aya:	XD my bad
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	Let me see if I can dig up the numbers...
[11:36]	Dahlia Trimble:	I've been on more fun rides before
[11:36]	Gaius Goodliffe:	wee!
[11:37]	Simon Linden:	We first drop LOD at 20fps. It will raise back to full LOD at 32 fps
[11:37]	Lucias Carnell is glad he doesnt suffer from motion sickness ;o
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	People are jumping seats too much, and this sim is lagging LSL badly
[11:37]	Lucias Carnell stands up and tries to help the lag
[11:37]	Simon Linden:	If we get below 6 fps, it starts freezing objects in place. Those get released when speed gets back to 12 fps
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	staying upmight not help it stabilize
[11:38]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Looks like it finally caught up.
[11:38]	Lucias Carnell:	i darent sit back down now..
[11:38]	Gaius Goodliffe:	heh
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	well then, I don't know what is sticking things to 10 FPS
[11:39]	Hikaru Yamamoto gave you andrew linden.
[11:39]	Kitto Flora gave you Cemetery Sim SLOW.
[11:40]	Cummere Mayo:	ok stupid question.... is it possibel to open the code and to a search that looks for a setting of 10 fps?
[11:40]	Lucias Carnell:	the constant locking and unlocking of object's might make it appere to stick at 10 while it actually fluctuates between 6 and 12 ?
[11:40]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Lucias: This happens in empty sims.
[11:40]	Gaius Goodliffe:	As well as full ones.
[11:40]	Lucias Carnell:	Ahh.
[11:40]	Lucias Carnell:	Then im out of ideas to :/
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	yes cummere, an examination of the code would reveal the cause -- I just don't know how strenous an examination it will take
[11:41]	Cummere Mayo:	i dotn think this lag is any "one" cause....
[11:41]	Cummere Mayo:	but i think a collection of cuases
[11:41]	Simon Linden:	There's also a bit of hysteresis involved ... it waits for 16 frames at the higher rate before releasing objects or raising the LOD
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Gaius, the 10 fps happens in emptry regions?
[11:41]	Simon Linden:	That's to prevent cycling between modes
[11:41]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I would think lag is due to many things, but the frequency of those precise statistics always gives me pause...
[11:41]	JayR Cela:	well most of thelow FPS problems I have observed are due to poorly designed builds
[11:41]	Lucias Carnell:	well id hate to be the one having to do a find for "10", perhaps running a debugger on the server code and watching the fps var and change's to it, and seeing what else is happening the second it hits 10 ?
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	There is a team of developers currently instrumenting the simulator with tools for checking performance stats. Once those are in place we'll be better equiped to drill down into performance problems such as this 10fps issue.
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	:) Who just left?
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	However, at the moment I don't know enough to really say what is happening.
[11:43]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:43]	Gaius Goodliffe has high hopes for the sim-performance stats producing helpful results.
[11:44]	Creem Pye:	oh so how about eliminating the avatar flight ceiling? will it happen soon?
[11:44]	Dahlia Trimble:	I'venoticed performance dips like that too, where usually a restart will fix it. i's like the sim host is busy doing other thihgs or something
[11:44]	Lucias Carnell is curious about that stat's they can release reguardless of it fixing anything ;o
[11:44]	Cummere Mayo:	would it be possible maybe to load some of these sims up on an alpha test grid? maybe their tols arent ready for beta yet, but they still migth find soemthin?
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	We've already found some interesting stuff ... the way a sim would sleep to use spare time each frame has been tweaked. Hopefully this will give more CPU to other regions on the same machine
[11:44]	Gaius Goodliffe:	cool!
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	It hasn't been exercised much at all, but it's in the 1-24 pipeline
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Creem, I'm in favor of removing the flight ceiling, however there are too many more important projects in the schedule. I think that is going to take a while.
[11:45]	JayR Cela:	@Lucias / i agree / yesterday I was attending a party and the simm just allmost shut down / a Simm restart solved the problem for a while / but eventually it got just as bad as it was before the restart
[11:45]	Creem Pye:	ok, just thought it might relieve some script lag if people stop using flight assists =)
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	I'm sure the sim performance project will be pulling copies of particular regions to analyze performance problems.
[11:46]	Lucias Carnell:	Wouldnt removing the "flight" ceiling not be that complicated? from what other physic's programming ive done ( ODE/Newton Mostly ) just changing the size of the physics "world" would suffice ?
[11:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The ability to set conditional avatar animations (eliminating the need for an AO) would do wonders too.
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Don Linden sounded in favor of deploying experimental simulators to the main grid, in fact.
[11:47]	Lucias Carnell:	As long as they dont rely on the main grid's asset / money service's id be for it to.
[11:47]	JayR Cela:	@Andrew that sounds like a reasonable ide
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Lucias, yes removing the flight ceiling would be a simple change, however such a change would have to go up for discussion, and I assure you that not everyone will be in favor.
[11:48]	Lucias Carnell:	running alpha/beta code in a production enviroment with real cash involved just seems scary,
[11:48]	JayR Cela:	@Andrew it was successufly done with Havok 4 / so I would be in favor of that
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	Lucias, if they deploy experimental code to the main grid it will be on a Estate-owner volunteer basis
[11:48]	Dahlia Trimble:	removing the ceiling would allow more n00bs to invenstigate skyboxes
[11:48]	Kitto Flora sees SIMAS is back
[11:48]	Lucias Carnell:	Andrew, This is going to sound like a stupid question, but other than having the process more"space" as such what's the downside?
[11:49]	Lucias Carnell:	so build more secure skyboxes tbh :/
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	There were some Estate owners who opted in early for Havok4, so maybe a few might opt in early for sim performance changes.
[11:49]	Gaius Goodliffe:	There's a free airplane in the welcome areas
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Lucius, you're asking why eliminate the fly height ceiling? What are the benefits?
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Creem, would you care to offer an opinion about that?
[11:50]	Cummere Mayo:	could there be soem sort of safeguards to protect rl assets for owners and for users of those sims?
[11:50]	Lucias Carnell:	Why would there be an excuse "not" to remove it.
[11:50]	Creem Pye:	er, about having estate owners volunteer to have a ceilingless avatar flight zone?
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Yes.
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Er, no
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Why eliminate the fly height ceiling at all?
[11:51]	Lucias Carnell:	Why Have one is the answer that that id guess :/
[11:51]	Lucias Carnell:	if it can be broken with the use of ingame mechanics, why use those extra cpu cycles in an attempt to stop it.
[11:51]	Creem Pye:	basically, flight assist devices cause lots of script lag (about the same as flying an airplane around, accoridng to my tests)
[11:51]	Gaius Goodliffe:	What I'd love to see is a settable gravity ceiling, so you can have zero-G builds above a certain height.
[11:51]	Creem Pye:	\
[11:51]	Cummere Mayo:	its easy enough to get around it anyways and allot of peopel like the security of the flight ceiling
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Correct Lucias. The fly height was originally a "social engineering" design feature.
[11:51]	Creem Pye:	so eliminating that would eliminate a common cause of script lag
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	The idea was to help keep the world's content down near the ground
[11:52]	Rex Cronon:	not all fa cause lagf
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	to help encourage people to actually meet and interact. It was made waaaaaay back when we first started.
[11:52]	Lucias Carnell:	Ahh, Ive always been an advocate of things implimented for "Social Reasons" Especially those that are easily bypassed >.>
[11:52]	Creem Pye:	on the other hand, if you somehow prevented flight assits from working at all, you could get better skybox security and not have the extra script lag ;)
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	It seems the fly height limit idea was a bit misguided.
[11:53]	Lucias Carnell:	eh, How many people do you see that never touch the ground of a sim in secondlife, Or at least come within viewing distance of it
[11:53]	Kitto Flora:	In same category as the old 'telehub only' system.
[11:53]	Gaius Goodliffe shudders.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere, yes some safeguards would be availabel for early adopter estate owners... such as rollbacks and return to the main version
[11:53]	Rex Cronon:	creem. u just have 2 sit on a prim and enter values
[11:53]	Gaius Goodliffe:	There's a reason I avoid Caledon like the plague.
[11:54]	Cummere Mayo:	i meant in terms of preventing losses of L$ and no copy stuff
[11:54]	Cummere Mayo:	but okays
[11:54]	Dahlia Trimble:	gotta run... bye all :)
[11:54]	Rex Cronon:	bye dahlia
[11:54]	Creem Pye:	that's true, but you might need rez rights to generate an editable prim
[11:55]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Cummere: Is there a reason to think region backups are insufficient?
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Cummere, no special gaurantees around that I would guess, not above and beyond the terms of service except very attentive developers.
[11:55]	Creem Pye:	for the record, I think a viewer-enforced "no fly" zone is silly too ;)
[11:55]	Lucias Carnell:	if (ProjectedHeight > MaxHeight ) { return MaxHeight } else { return ProjectedHeight } dont see limiting usto the actually fly zone ever being an issue :/
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	L$ balances are not in the region backups Gaius.
[11:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I thoguht the concern was the loss of in-sim assets. I didn't think L$ balanced were an issue...
[11:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	*balances
[11:57]	Lucias Carnell:	Asset's could be backed up onto a seperate sim, it would be the l$ id be concerned about :/
[11:57]	Cummere Mayo:	gauis though LL made good in most cases there was an early adopter thing that wound up costing a few people ALLOT of Ld$ when it broke. for sim owners, venders, etc, its a huge risk sometimes being part of a voluteer thing
[11:58]	Gaius Goodliffe:	So, what you're asking for is, if you lose business while you're participating in the experiment, you want LL to compensate for lost business?
[11:58]	Cummere Mayo:	within reason
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	This hour is almost up. Any last-minute questions or issues?
[11:58]	Cummere Mayo:	if someone lsos a few thosuand... tough noogies. if someone looses a few hundred thousadn um possibly yes
[11:59]	Cummere Mayo:	and not really abotu lsoing business as if soemthign goes wrong and eats the cash
[11:59]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Cummere: I would say the reasonable figure would be L$0. If you're conducting that much business in your sim and care about it, you shouoldn't be volunteering to run experimental software on it.
[11:59]	Lucias Carnell:	Gauis, Lost business isnt the issue, imagine a security flaw made it into this new test code allowing me to run rampant and stealyour l$..
[11:59]	Lucias Carnell:	would u still want that code on the main grid then.
[11:59]	Cummere Mayo:	thank you lucias
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	hmm. sl is kind of experimental:)
[12:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hehe, you have a point... :)
[12:00]	Creem Pye:	hm I guess I could see an experimental Mono script could spam a stack trace into chat when it crashes that reveals sensitive info
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Right, my advice would be to be conservative if the region is important to some business.
[12:01]	Creem Pye:	but then again the creator would be the one converting the script to mono in the first place, so there's a known risk
[12:01]	Gaius Goodliffe keeps most of his L$ on an alt he never logs in on for reasons like this.
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	Avs have no access to the guts of the MONO compiler. Its in the sim.
[12:02]	Lucias Carnell:	i keep mine of grid totally, slexchange is handy for that
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	However, some Estate owners have multiple regions an might want to commit a lesser one to the project. Dunno, there are a lot of estate owners, and we certainly got a lot of volunteers for the Early Adopter program in the Havok4 project.
[12:02]	JayR Cela:	see ya'll later everyone / byee Rex - probably see ya at Zero's
[12:02]	Creem Pye:	in the past, some mono errors would spam a bunch of bytecode to chat... but those bugs are fxied for the time being
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Alright, this hour is going to end
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	bye jary
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	jayr*
[12:03]	Cummere Mayo:	thank you for your time andrew, simon. ill be back to bug you next week *nodnod*
[12:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Mostly I don't worry about sim bugs, but just accidental purchases for large amounts (I've seen that tactic used before -- vendor panels prices way beyond their labeled price)
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for coming
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	Lunchtime!
[12:03]	Creem Pye:	thanks for your time
[12:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Best to make sure I can't make a truly large purchase accidentally.
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	have fun
[12:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	cya
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye all
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for attending, everyone.
[12:04]	Lucias Carnell:	np Thanks for running this andrew,
[12:04]	Lucias Carnell:	nice meeting youall,
[12:04]	Lucias Carnell:	might catch some of you at zero's office hours.