User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 08 14

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[16:58]	Marianne McCann:	hi Simon!
[16:58]	Simon Linden:	Hi
[16:58]	Marianne McCann:	Hi PB
[16:58]	PulseBurst Flow:	hi simon hi marianne
[16:59]	Simon Linden:	wow, it's slow rezzing this area
[16:59]	Marianne McCann:	Really? Came in quick for me
[16:59]	PulseBurst Flow:	a little slow here too
[16:59]	Marianne McCann:	huh
[16:59]	Marianne McCann:	I'll address it with Lokirian Janus
[17:00]	Marianne McCann:	Hi Sindy!
[17:00]	Sindy Tsure:	hiya marianne!
[17:00]	Sindy Tsure:	hi simon!
[17:00]	Sindy Tsure:	& pulse
[17:00]	Simon Linden:	Hi Sindy
[17:00]	PulseBurst Flow:	hey sindy
[17:00]	Sindy Tsure:	oops.. afk.. feel free to start without me.. :P
[17:01]	Marianne McCann grins
[17:01]	Marianne McCann:	Which they definitely should not be. They should be no transfer
[17:01]	PulseBurst Flow:	did anyone remember to bring a deck of cards?
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	I don't have any new announcements, but a repeat of Tuesday's asking if anyone has regions (particularly OpenSpace) that might want to get involved with performance testing.
[17:01]	Les White:	hiays
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	If so, please contact Sidewinder Linden and let him know
[17:02]	Marianne McCann:	I c'n do that
[17:02]	PulseBurst Flow:	what kind of testing? you mean just allow testing?
[17:02]	Sindy Tsure bets desmond might be into that
[17:02]	PulseBurst Flow:	or need to actively do something?
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	We will be running a few machines with extra monitoring code on the main grid
[17:02]	Marianne McCann:	I'll talk with him an see what happened. I know that I have a revised (better looking) one that has replaced those old ones
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	You won't have to do anything, but under-the-hood we can gather more information about what's going on
[17:03]	Sindy Tsure asks permission to forward simon's text to desmond..
[17:03]	Marianne McCann:	Safe Place Sign - New
[17:03]	Marianne McCann:	yes
[17:03]	Les White:	i have one, but i think it's too idle for testing
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	Sure, please do
[17:03]	Marianne McCann:	Use that one instead. It's less prims and better overall
[17:03]	PulseBurst Flow:	I might have an area..
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	Idle is OK as well ... we need idle ones to go along with active regions
[17:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Will do.
[17:04]	PulseBurst Flow:	does it need to be active? will it effect performance? or limit area?
[17:04]	Marianne McCann:	I will talk to Robin, as she holds the keys, but we have both a standard island estate and an attached openspace
[17:04]	Simon Linden:	Usually about half the grid or so is empty, so it's pretty typical for a busy sim to be sharing a machine with non-busy ones
[17:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	I was wondering who had authority to deed objects to group, and found all Mystic Consultants do. Why is that?
[17:04]	Les White:	right. i'll forward to sidewinder then
[17:04]	Sindy Tsure waves!
[17:04]	PulseBurst Flow:	hey sidewinder..what you need regions for testing?
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	I don't have any new announcements, but a repeat of Tuesday's asking if anyone has regions (particularly OpenSpace) that might want to get involved with performance testing.
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	If so, please contact Sidewinder Linden and let him know
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	We will be running a few machines with extra monitoring code on the main grid
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	You won't have to do anything, but under-the-hood we can gather more information about what's going on
[17:03]	Sindy Tsure asks permission to forward simon's text to desmond..
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	Sure, please do
[17:05]	Marianne McCann:	You're looking for sims for performance testing?
[17:05]	PulseBurst Flow:	simon says. ;-D
[17:05]	Sindy Tsure:	hiya folks
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	The new version is going to be tested internally Monday and hopefully we can get started later in the week
[17:05]	Les White:	hiya
[17:05]	Marianne McCann:	Hiya
[17:05]	Marianne McCann:	Thanks
[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[17:05]	Les White:	is there any room for optimization with vehicle phsyics time?
[17:05]	Desmond Shang:	oh cool! I sure will!!!
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	Hi Rex
[17:05]	Les White:	seems to over difine shapes
[17:05]	Sindy Tsure:	:)
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	Well, there's certainly room for improvement :)
[17:05]	Les White:	a box uses .1 ms a 30 prim car upto 8.0....
[17:06]	Les White:	the more complex the shape the more rude it becomes
[17:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi simon
[17:06]	Marianne McCann:	Dunno. Sorry :-/
[17:06]	Les White:	it's doing too much useless math
[17:06]	Simon Linden:	There are some ideas floating around to somehow simplify the shape used in physics. We know it makes stuff faster, but the problem is how to control it
[17:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Time is money, but Physics doesn't cost a Basic Account any extra
[17:06]	Rex Cronon:	i am stuck at 0,00
[17:07]	Les White:	i would settle for allowing p[arts of a link set phantom.
[17:07]	Simon Linden:	You can't guess just from the content if the complexity is important or not
[17:07]	Rex Cronon:	normal now
[17:07]	Marianne McCann:	cool
[17:07]	Simon Linden:	I was thinking about adding some triangle-reduction code (there are a lot of papers on techniques on the web) and then letting people set some prim property to control it
[17:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ideally, we should have part of the vehicle shape literal, and part appearent; part should be on the physics engine, and part should be visible.
[17:08]	Les White:	yes simon
[17:08]	Les White:	exactly
[17:08]	Les White:	it's over defining shapes for no need
[17:08]	Sindy Tsure:	triangle-reduction? isn't that rendering?
[17:08]	Sindy Tsure thought physics was all boxes
[17:08]	Simon Linden:	... or allow some substitute shape perhaps, box or sphere parameters instead of the full complex object
[17:08]	Les White:	many of the "race track" sims are using 1 prim bodies and attachment cars...which to me sucks o-o
[17:09]	Les White:	yes. a simple definable hull would be the win
[17:09]	Simon Linden:	It's in physics as well - most interestingobjects are represented in physics as a mesh
[17:09]	Marianne McCann:	Ya, I've been testing a car set up like that. Attachment body
[17:09]	Sindy Tsure:	ooh.... i get it.. ty
[17:09]	Les White:	right now 4 or 5 "normal" prim cars kill a c5 sim
[17:10]	Les White:	but you could run 20 single prim box cars np
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	Simple ones are a sphere or box to the Havok engine, but complex ones are a mesh
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	So ... no other annoucements, so if anyone has a question, throw it out there...
[17:10]	Sindy Tsure:	d'oh
[17:10]	Les White:	i'm done :)
[17:10]	Sindy Tsure:	any time!
[17:11]	PulseBurst Flow:	do you know if auto-return on land causes lag?
[17:11]	Marianne McCann:	Would such a change to physical shape affect the boundaries on avatars as well?
[17:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	I recall you were taking an interest in llSetLink PrimitiveParams, as applied in Avatar placement. Have you decided the horizontal displacement allowable?
[17:11]	Simon Linden:	Hmmm ... I haven't heard of it being a problem, but I can imagine that the return process itself takes a little time.
[17:11]	Sindy Tsure:	didn't they turn the minimum auto-return time up a couple years ago to prevent it from lagging when the gray goo hits?
[17:12]	Simon Linden:	If it's scanning objects much, that would also be a time hit
[17:12]	Les White:	prolly less lag then leaving the objects laying there
[17:12]	Sindy Tsure:	it's an asset hit because it's got to go back into somebody's inventory, yes?
[17:12]	Simon Linden:	Yes, there's the upload cost
[17:12]	Sindy Tsure:	:)
[17:12]	Areth Gall:	Phew. You guys still have it.
[17:12]	PulseBurst Flow:	in a group I was in yesterday, people were insisting that 1 minute autoreturn causes lag..and did no good.
[17:13]	Simon Linden:	1 sec ... I'll do a quick look to see if I can see how it scans...
[17:13]	Sindy Tsure:	there is some truth to that, i think..
[17:13]	PulseBurst Flow:	and quoted some linden....
[17:13]	Areth Gall:	For the time being.
[17:13]	Sindy Tsure looks for the blog post
[17:13]	Areth Gall licks
[17:13]	PulseBurst Flow:	but never seen the problem myself
[17:13]	Areth Gall hugs and holds
[17:13]	Rex Cronon:	does it make any difference if autoreturn is 2 minutes?
[17:13]	Simon Linden:	Since it's a region setting, it would be easy to turn it on and off and check
[17:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Why have I got Sara's Bridge back? Are you not wanting one there?
[17:13]	Sindy Tsure:	http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/11/06/getting-technical-auto-return-time-increase/
[17:14]	PulseBurst Flow:	and I notice that Lindens now put a strip of land around new infohub..called a griefer moat..and it has 1 minute autoreturn
[17:14]	Sindy Tsure:	if autoreturn is fighting some self-replicating object, it's better to have a longer autoreturn time
[17:14]	PulseBurst Flow:	Thanks for the reference Sindy.
[17:14]	Areth Gall:	I know I'm late, but I have a few physics things I wanna bring up. Whenever there's a good time, let me know.
[17:15]	Les White:	go!
[17:15]	Areth Gall:	Just.. tired and stuff. Can't do anything right, it seems
[17:15]	Sindy Tsure:	the deal is that if things are constantly getting rezzed & returned, it'll cause more lag than a longer autoreturn time where the parcel just fills up and denies more things being rezzed
[17:15]	Les White:	sounds kinda silly
[17:15]	Les White:	let it fill up with junk to lower lag
[17:15]	Sindy Tsure:	you don't remember the gray goo grid attacks??
[17:16]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, too bad we can't just delete the objects
[17:16]	Sindy Tsure:	for normal, everyday things, i don't think it matters much
[17:16]	Sindy Tsure isn't a linden, tho - listen to simon first :)
[17:16]	Areth Gall:	sorta. Trying to sit down and get a meeting taken care of. Yourself? How has your day been?
[17:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought she'd negotiated something with Manon. I'll think about it, but a Bridge Rezzer might have a certain Amberesque
[17:16]	PulseBurst Flow:	ok..but then it is only a problem under a griefer attack..which is a problem anyway..
[17:17]	Sindy Tsure:	...and read Kelly's blog post
[17:17]	PulseBurst Flow:	so normally, it's not a problem.
[17:17]	Simon Linden:	I don't remember the auto-return scan showing up before when we did some code profiling, but that may have been because of the regions we were testing
[17:17]	Areth Gall:	yeah.. generally what they say when you don't get hired. only time I've ever been hired, I've known before I left.
[17:18]	Areth Gall:	You need clothes. I'm at a Linden meeting
[17:18]	Sindy Tsure:	with a self-replicator attack, especially one that covers big parts of the grid, the short autoreturn time was flooding the asset servers
[17:18]	Sindy Tsure:	or inventory servers.. or something back-end
[17:18]	Simon Linden:	yes, that would add stress as it tries to move lots of objects into someone's inventory in a short time
[17:18]	Sindy Tsure would guess that it doesn't really cost more than rezzing/deleting stuff as normal, unless there's a bazillion parcels doing it at once
[17:18]	Les White:	right. so it's not a matter of region performance
[17:19]	Areth Gall:	Well, I'd hire you :P
[17:19]	PulseBurst Flow:	what's the deal with auto-return..people tell me not to set 1 minute auto return, and that it causes lag..and they quote you...but I never had a problem..and I see Lindens set 1 minute autoreturn "griefer moats" around infohubs.
[17:19]	Simon Linden:	Rezzing is actually more costly than de-rezzing, I think. When we de-rez, we don't have to parse the info about the new object
[17:19]	Simon Linden:	Our data parser is slow, it's a known bottleneck
[17:19]	Les White:	rezzing cost too much currently
[17:19]	Sindy Tsure:	..or pass out all the details to everybody in the region
[17:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	In Spirit City, I ran into Script Ruthing, last night.
[17:20]	Sindy Tsure:	making scripts all unformatted and newbie looking??
[17:20]	Sindy Tsure:	:P
[17:20]	Areth Gall:	It's an open meeting about scripting and havok 4
[17:20]	Simon Linden:	In either case there's an update to send out to everyone, but the new object info is a bit bigger since it has to have all the object details, may involve textures, etc
[17:20]	Areth Gall:	Just waiting my turn
[17:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	When you try to open them, the asset server doens't knwo which options to make available, so all are available, but unworkable
[17:21]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. i've seen that before
[17:21]	Areth Gall:	And make you all sorts of preggerz, yes :P
[17:21]	BriarMoss Bunin:	see, i have a dress n.n
[17:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	In Spirit City, it's business as usual
[17:21]	Areth Gall stares
[17:21]	BriarMoss Bunin:	what o.o
[17:21]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, I haven't heard of that before. I've seen scripts not load, or take a long time, but not anything with the options
[17:22]	Simon Linden:	Are you talking about options in the script editor, like "save" and such?
[17:22]	Les White:	you see it when you click a script in an object before the object contents updates itself
[17:22]	Areth Gall snickers and begins plotting evil things to do inside of that dress, and what it could hide :P
[17:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	Open the edit window to contents, right click, and get the whol elist of unworkable options.
[17:22]	Les White:	like, open, delete, prop
[17:22]	Sindy Tsure:	the right-click menu has a whole bunch of potential options and usually hides most of them
[17:22]	BriarMoss Bunin:	if you don't behave i'll tell you a secret
[17:22]	Rex Cronon:	yes, that happens a lot to me too:(
[17:23]	Simon Linden:	You know, that sounds like a viewer bug ... it seems like those should default to 'off' until it has the info it needs
[17:23]	Les White:	right
[17:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Many options I've no idea how to use.
[17:23]	Areth Gall:	Only if I don't behave, hm? :P
[17:23]	Areth Gall:	Maybe. :P
[17:23]	Les White:	been like that forever. defaults to all options until it updates
[17:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	It hasn't the info it needs.
[17:23]	Areth Gall:	How are things going with your Mistress?
[17:23]	Rex Cronon:	is due to lag
[17:23]	Sindy Tsure:	i think i've only seen that when tp's start failing and stuff doesn't want to rez, etc
[17:23]	Simon Linden:	Is there a jira bug for that? I would be done by the viewer group, but it doesn't sound like something that's very difficult to fix
[17:24]	Rex Cronon:	i thought that was the normal mode of operation, had no idea the lindens didn't know about it
[17:24]	Simon Linden:	err ... "It would be done...."
[17:24]	Les White:	most of the time it pops in correct after a second or so
[17:24]	Les White:	cept when DB or something is on fire
[17:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's hard to reproduce, being occassional, but it sometimes happens enough to become predictable.
[17:24]	Simon Linden:	It might be one of those bugs that we don't see in the office, sitting on a faster connection
[17:24]	Sindy Tsure:	i'm not sure it's a bug.. if you don't have enough info to know which options to show, do you show them all or hide them all?
[17:24]	Sindy Tsure:	i think there's arguments either way
[17:24]	BriarMoss Bunin:	yep, otherwise you don't need to know
[17:24]	Areth Gall:	I'm sorry
[17:25]	Les White:	i would think hide them all would be the correct method, but it sure uses show all
[17:25]	Simon Linden:	Well, I'd say hide them or disable them until it has the info
[17:25]	BriarMoss Bunin:	linden meeting
[17:25]	Areth Gall snickers and rubs your tushem.
[17:25]	Rex Cronon:	that happened today at rausch, the red team sim
[17:25]	Sindy Tsure:	but if Open worked, i'd be happy to just use that, even if it had silly options that aren't valid
[17:25]	BriarMoss Bunin:	no, i'm at one, discussing the graphic engine and what needs to be done
[17:25]	Sindy Tsure:	...if i wanted to open the script, that is
[17:25]	BriarMoss Bunin:	thats weak, gonna have to do more then that n.n
[17:26]	Areth Gall snickers. "After I shower, we will. But for now.. I just need to tease.. and rub your breasts.." shi rurred, moving hir paws up your sides as hir tails took up position around your rump-cheeks
[17:26]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'd no idea, how to describe it, until I took a picture and showed CG
[17:27]	Simon Linden:	Sounds like it needs a jira with that picture
[17:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'll have to find the picture. Jira: "Torley, could you do an explanation of this?"
[17:28]	Sindy Tsure:	lol
[17:28]	BriarMoss Bunin leaning down to whisper in your ear "i'm not wearing anything under this dress"
[17:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	SVC, VWR or MISC?
[17:28]	Sindy Tsure guesses vwr
[17:28]	Simon Linden:	Areth - you had some physics issues?
[17:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	It happens more in Spirit City, so I'd say SVC
[17:29]	Areth Gall:	Yeps. I used to have a teleporter that could teleport me anywhere in a sim, instantly. I actually had a few systems that used this, including a commercial combat system. The system was nerfed when the maximum avatar velocity was installed. Is there any way to locally change the maximum velocity of an avatar for a sim? And is that a permanent modification?
[17:30]	Les White:	hiya Creem
[17:30]	Creem Pye:	howdy
[17:30]	Sindy Tsure waves hi
[17:30]	Simon Linden:	I would put that under VWR - it may be exposed more by a slow region, but I'm pretty sure it's a viewer issue
[17:30]	Marianne McCann:	`
[17:30]	Les White:	200mps is tops
[17:30]	Les White:	the global limit
[17:30]	Areth Gall:	Also, why was the limit installed?
[17:30]	Rex Cronon:	to stop orbits
[17:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sounds like a Gnome Flinger, rather than a TP
[17:31]	Sindy Tsure:	(and hiya to briarmoss & areth)
[17:31]	BriarMoss Bunin nods
[17:31]	Areth Gall:	I thought that push object restrictions stopped most orbit attacks. And certainly there would be other ways to stop those attacks.
[17:31]	Simon Linden:	Hmmm, short answer to "is there any way to locally change..." is no
[17:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	There's been some recent suspicion, that a server upgrade might be causing lag.
[17:31]	Sindy Tsure:	llSetLinkPrimPArams doesn't get around that limit?
[17:31]	Les White:	since 1.22 there is "hitching" lag :/
[17:32]	Les White:	1.21*
[17:32]	Simon Linden:	There was some limits introduced recently to prevent numeric overflows, which could crash the simulator, but I thought those numbers were really big
[17:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's Hitching Lag?
[17:32]	Simon Linden:	What do you mean by 'hitching' ?
[17:33]	Les White:	the sim stutters with phsyics. everything flies off with viewr prediction then comes back to where you were
[17:33]	Sindy Tsure:	when the sim slows down to pick up some poor avatar who's car has broken down
[17:33]	Les White:	it's a sim global thing
[17:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Dragon sent back the bridge; I think I'll design it as a temp rez bridge.
[17:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Going to bed, soon?
[17:33]	Les White:	like packet loss. but global and yuo actual position doesnt change. you snap back
[17:33]	Les White:	it hitches and away you go till the next one a minute later
[17:34]	Les White:	cyclic physics l;ag
[17:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's been messy, when it happens to me.
[17:34]	Simon Linden:	So your movement and position updates aren't smooth?
[17:34]	Areth Gall:	The max velocity I would ever need to instantly teleport anywhere in a sim would be 38,208 m/s. Would that be high enough to crash a sim?
[17:34]	Les White:	it's smooth as silk
[17:34]	Les White:	then BANG
[17:34]	Areth Gall kisses
[17:34]	Sindy Tsure:	38k m/s???
[17:34]	Les White:	you get 1-2 seconds of sim phys freeze. you keep moving (prediction) but then you snap back and carry on
[17:34]	Areth Gall:	Yeah, and it works. Because I'm a psycopath.
[17:35]	Creem Pye:	you could probably move that fast nonphysically without doing much harm
[17:35]	Sindy Tsure:	so you're going well beyond x=4096
[17:35]	Sindy Tsure:	*z=
[17:35]	Areth Gall:	Not really. You have to consider how physics on SL actually works.
[17:35]	Simon Linden:	Those are likely being caused by some other events on the system ... that's one of the things we've been adding this metrics code to find out
[17:35]	Les White:	it's not network. it's the sim itself freezing up
[17:35]	Les White:	thats all i know!
[17:35]	Simon Linden:	Since a region is sharing the computer system with other regions, they interact with the CPU usage
[17:35]	Les White:	but inbetween that it's very consistant
[17:36]	Arawn Spitteler imagines the entire server stopping while the metrics code tracks the stopping of the server.
[17:36]	Les White:	it's not a slow down. just stops and starts
[17:36]	Sindy Tsure:	hiya ryozu
[17:36]	Ryozu Kojima waves.
[17:36]	BriarMoss Bunin:	ive had that happen to me
[17:36]	Marianne McCann:	hi
[17:36]	Areth Gall:	Thank you, and love you
[17:37]	Areth Gall:	[Had what happen to you? o.O]
[17:37]	BriarMoss Bunin:	walked through a wall and when the system restarted i was stuck in the wall
[17:37]	Simon Linden:	I noticed an interesting 'pulse' to some frame rates I recently gathered, it may be related
[17:37]	Simon Linden:	Hi Ryozu
[17:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	Spirit City is a pretty busy place, and is going to use the communication interfaces enough to interfere with any other sim on a server.
[17:37]	Les White:	hang around Mooz some afternoon Simon
[17:37]	Les White:	physics central. vehicles everywhere :)
[17:37]	Areth Gall:	No kidding. SL generally operates around 25 physics updates per second, from what I've seen.
[17:37]	Simon Linden:	ok, I'll remember that region
[17:37]	Areth Gall:	But even that fluxes to less. 25 just happens to be the max.
[17:37]	Les White:	yes. i dont buy the 45fps stuff heheh
[17:37]	PulseBurst Flow interesting
[17:37]	Areth Gall:	Is the 200m/s limit a limit for all objects?
[17:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	Prim Overhang, if you squared it with Manon, she likely didn't tell him.
[17:38]	Simon Linden:	I'm not familiar with any new limits, that's a question that Andrew will have to answer
[17:38]	Areth Gall:	Alright.. is that limit permanent? Because that may actually make me cry.
[17:38]	Les White:	i cant make anything phsyical go faster then 200mps in my test anyway
[17:38]	Creem Pye:	hmmm I thought andrew said it would be 255 or 256
[17:38]	Areth Gall:	oh.. pookie.
[17:38]	Simon Linden:	Well, best way to reverse it is explaining why to Andrew
[17:39]	Areth Gall:	Sure. Thanks. :P
[17:39]	Les White:	vehicle motor param goes to 256
[17:39]	Ryozu Kojima:	What are you using to measure that velocity?
[17:39]	Les White:	but h4 doesnt :)
[17:39]	Sindy Tsure:	if it used to send anybody anywhere that fast, it's probably not physical
[17:39]	Areth Gall:	Last thing. are there any updates on the drag on rotation velocity? :P
[17:39]	Sindy Tsure:	linden office hour :P
[17:39]	Areth Gall:	hm
[17:40]	Simon Linden:	I haven't heard about that ... ah, but I do remember one thing from yesterday when I met Andrew ...
[17:40]	Les White:	llVecMag(llGetVel())
[17:40]	Ryozu Kojima:	Eww
[17:40]	Simon Linden:	... he fixed the camera osciallation problem
[17:40]	Areth Gall:	Sweet.
[17:40]	Ryozu Kojima:	When doing speed tests, please avoid llGetVel() at all costs for high speeds
[17:40]	Areth Gall:	Andrew is awesome. He deserves cookies and strombolli
[17:40]	Sindy Tsure:	andrew's scheduled one but he's not here.. simon's chatting with us
[17:40]	Areth Gall:	Hm.. A cookie strombolli.
[17:40]	Les White:	use what instead?
[17:40]	Marianne McCann:	Hi! I have a strange question. Candie Apple once told me you made some of the first, if not the first, Anime and/or child avatars on the grid. Blue Linden also confirmed this last night. Is this true? Also, do you still have some of these early examples?
[17:40]	Ryozu Kojima:	Sec, let me find my script
[17:40]	Creem Pye:	a diffi in llgetpos()?
[17:40]	Sindy Tsure:	lol
[17:41]	Areth Gall:	Well, that's mainly what I needed to know
[17:41]	BriarMoss Bunin:	its interesting
[17:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	I want to find better prims anyway. I think a rainbow bridge rezzer will go nicely.
[17:41]	Areth Gall:	I had a teleporter.. that was what I had been trying to fix recently. And it would be VERY useful for getting out of an attack -- getting beamed back to a capital ship in a sim if you are surrounded.
[17:41]	Sindy Tsure:	what kind of script?
[17:42]	Areth Gall:	Plus it's nice to be able to have spawn spots in a combat sim, if you want to have team spawns using non-linden combat
[17:42]	BriarMoss Bunin:	of which i want to get into n.n
[17:42]	Ryozu Kojima:	menu
[17:42]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure when the camera position fix will go out ... we're backed up with bug fixes as our testing focuses on Mono and getting that out
[17:42]	Sindy Tsure had a question, if we're idle..
[17:42]	Simon Linden:	sure, what?
[17:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	He's trying to tidy up, but it's the small stuff, that uses prim rights.
[17:43]	Sindy Tsure:	something somebody asked me, actually..
[17:43]	Areth Gall:	Anyone got any details on the camera problem they can lend me? I haven't been on to actually realize most of this stuff.
[17:43]	Areth Gall:	Sorta here to ask and catch up at the same time.
[17:43]	Areth Gall:	hey
[17:43]	Ryozu Kojima:	Speedometer
[17:43]	Areth Gall:	Forgot I needed to make you that script. Gonna try to get it done this weekend
[17:43]	Sindy Tsure:	they were saying that when you rez an object, it starts at 0,0,0 then gets moved into place.. the question was on if having some empty space at 0,0,0 in the region would speed things up
[17:43]	Simon Linden:	It's position will oscillate if there's an obstacle slightly below the line from the camera to the AV
[17:43]	Areth Gall:	By whom?
[17:44]	Simon Linden:	Hey, glad you had fun!
[17:44]	Areth Gall:	.. Is that an avatar or a group?
[17:44]	Marianne McCann:	Somethign I deal with a lot
[17:44]	Areth Gall:	And is it a griefer or a military?
[17:44]	Simon Linden:	It's a good excuse to have to buy shoes :)
[17:44]	BriarMoss Bunin:	i am going to your land, cause i have to go wash a pot, bbiab
[17:44]	Areth Gall:	Meh. Gotta go deal with a griefer. I'll be back
[17:44]	Sindy Tsure:	need taller shoes, marianne!
[17:45]	Marianne McCann snickers
[17:45]	Simon Linden:	Sindy - I don't think that would change things much
[17:45]	Creem Pye:	oh, I have a general question - is there any debugging tool to show the physical bounding box of an avatar? the "bonding boxes" option under "info displays" shows a physics-independent box around my avatar (based on the animation)
[17:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	Mention it to Dragon. I can't send things back either.
[17:45]	Ryozu Kojima:	It's only good for testing sustained speed mind you, but it's better than llGetVel last I checked
[17:45]	Les White:	by better you mean less intensive for CPU?
[17:45]	Marianne McCann:	I seem to recall something in my inventory that did a fair, if not perfect avatar boundng box
[17:45]	Les White:	looks kinda messy when getvel works fine
[17:46]	Ryozu Kojima:	Last time I did any speed tests, llGetVel was limited to 256m/s
[17:46]	Marianne McCann:	Helped me spot the hug problem, and some vehicle issues. Lemme go hunting
[17:46]	Simon Linden:	No - we were talking about adding some better info displays for the viewer. Something like the 'rendering cost' but perhaps 'script cost' or 'physics cost'
[17:46]	Sindy Tsure:	script cost!!
[17:46]	Sindy Tsure chants
[17:46]	Creem Pye:	ah Marianne, would it be an elliipsoid that uses llgetagentsize() to rescale itself to?
[17:46]	Sindy Tsure:	script cost!!
[17:46]	Simon Linden:	The viewer doesn't know anything about the shapes the physics engine is using
[17:46]	Marianne McCann:	Something like that, I believe
[17:47]	Les White begs for a lsl hook to ARC
[17:47]	Creem Pye:	invididual script + physics time displays on objects would be great, simon
[17:47]	Sindy Tsure:	related, see: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-835 which asks for Top Scripts on Parcel
[17:47]	Simon Linden:	One theory about why dance clubs and stuff get slow is all the scripts in attachments. That doesn't show up in script cost, I think
[17:47]	Creem Pye:	otherwise I have to go to an empty sim to see the performance impact of some scripted object
[17:47]	Les White:	yes. things should really have a "cost" associated with them. clean up this mess. drive market pressure to make low lag thingies
[17:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	Understand what?
[17:48]	Les White:	you only see attachments if you get an av to sit on a scripted item. it makes the score 1 for the whole deal
[17:48]	Rex Cronon:	maybe it would be better if there was scriptCost, that showed the nr of script u have in your attachments?
[17:48]	Sindy Tsure absolutely agrees that attachments, especialy huds, are club-killers
[17:48]	Simon Linden:	The folks doing Mono also want to put in better limits on scripts so they can be throttled effectively, so that one objetc doesn't hog the resources
[17:48]	Les White:	yes. when HUDs came out i trembled
[17:49]	Sindy Tsure saw her Active Scripts go from 7k to over 9k when a couple people tp'ed in the other day..
[17:49]	Les White:	you do silly stuff like sleep scripts. so we do silly stuff like use 6 scripts to rot something smooth
[17:49]	Creem Pye:	yes it would be nice if Mono allowed us to reduce scripted objects to only hvaing 1 script inside
[17:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	Cost of Prims? Basic Land Ownership.
[17:50]	Sindy Tsure would add "llOwnerSay ("heard '" + message + "'");"
[17:50]	Sindy Tsure:	right above the llListenRemove in the listen event
[17:50]	Areth Gall:	lasts for another 10 minutes, but I would like to shower too
[17:50]	Simon Linden:	Ideally Mono will speed things up a bit, but I think whatever the performance, people will push it until the limit is reached
[17:50]	Arawn Spitteler would throttle total agent script burden, per agent, rather than no-script areas.
[17:50]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heh
[17:51]	Les White:	a per agent throttle would make me smile for a year
[17:51]	Simon Linden:	Yes, I gave away bears for a while, but thought people would like something fun to do in-world
[17:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	Every task will use all resources available, including some resources required by other tasks.
[17:51]	Simon Linden:	Yes, per-agent is the goal
[17:51]	Sindy Tsure:	Window Controller
[17:51]	Les White:	nothing like using great restraint to make a useable sim then 2 people show up with 2000 scripts
[17:51]	Marianne McCann:	Well, I am a kid avvie on a regular basis, an also a history nut, an the question came up aout early kid avatrs during the SL birthday stuff. Since then, I've been trying to track down some of that history a bit
[17:51]	Areth Gall:	eat up and eat well
[17:51]	Areth Gall:	Is Liya there?
[17:52]	Creem Pye:	anyway about physics stuff, would using llGetAgentSize() and llGetPos() to size an ellipsoid around my avatar give me a good idea of my physical bounding box?
[17:52]	Areth Gall:	are you guarding the sim?
[17:52]	Arawn Spitteler presumes tht few of these 2000 scriptsg will show in the top script windows?
[17:52]	Sindy Tsure:	i'd be happy with a way to see who's causing problems when the sim starts to go south..
[17:52]	Les White:	only when they sit on something scripted
[17:52]	Areth Gall:	Bah. Must be another PN attack
[17:52]	Sindy Tsure:	if the sim isn't hurting, i have no problems with them using heavily scripted objects
[17:52]	Sindy Tsure:	ick.. good luck, areth
[17:53]	Simon Linden:	Creem - that would probably be good. I haven't tested that to see how accurate the numbers are, but it sounds good
[17:53]	Marianne McCann:	Tryin to find that item in inventory. Sadly, it's been a while since I've done a good cleaning
[17:53]	Sindy Tsure is distracted - i missed the bit where you want it for group members
[17:53]	Creem Pye:	ok thanks
[17:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	19 prims to a fairy? It's a matter of Prim Counts and Temp_Rez Liabilities.
[17:53]	Sindy Tsure:	office hour is over soon..
[17:53]	Creem Pye:	ah oh well, if it's what I think it is, I can remake it pretty easily =)
[17:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	We're currently discussing, how to detect who is wiping out a sim's resources, when it happens.
[17:53]	Simon Linden:	I think a lot of people don't know some of the good places to go in Second Life
[17:53]	Creem Pye:	ah also, when an avatar is in mouselook, scripts report that the avatar's rotation follows their mouselook camera
[17:53]	Creem Pye:	but does the physical bounding box rotate in that case as well?
[17:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	They normally don't know what htey're doing.
[17:54]	Marianne McCann:	Ya, largely that idea
[17:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm in the sim, Content To Hover, with a few SLPhysics Gurus.
[17:54]	Marianne McCann:	Very cool!
[17:54]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, I don't know. Does the AV appear to rotate when someone is watching them?
[17:54]	Simon Linden:	Guess we could test that...
[17:54]	Sindy Tsure goes into mouselook and tries to spin
[17:55]	Les White:	you spin!
[17:55]	Sindy Tsure gets dizzy
[17:55]	Creem Pye:	hmm but your pitch doesn't change? =)
[17:55]	Marianne McCann:	I'm relatively "new" (2006), so a lot of my knowledge is second hand at best
[17:55]	Les White:	hehe
[17:55]	Creem Pye:	looking up and down, only the head moves
[17:55]	Simon Linden:	Ha! So it appears mouselook is actually spinning
[17:55]	Sindy Tsure:	that was just dragging my mouse left, over and over
[17:55]	Simon Linden:	Right - the AV shape is pinned to the vertical axis
[17:56]	Marianne McCann:	Enjoy din din!
[17:56]	Creem Pye:	ok,that makes sense. thanks
[17:57]	Arawn Spitteler keeps forgetting a question: When someone uses Temp Rezzers, in Spirit City, they often wipe out prim rights of neighboring parcels. Should that even be possible?
[17:57]	Sindy Tsure:	prim rights?
[17:57]	Simon Linden:	That gets tricky ... since most of the world is built by others, we don't want to compete with the residents who work so hard
[17:57]	Marianne McCann waves
[17:57]	Simon Linden:	That said, we are coming up with some ideas on making popular places easier to find
[17:58]	Marianne McCann:	Thankoo!
[17:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Primitives Simulator Supports become less than primitives supported, and the neighboring parcels have no prim rights.
[17:58]	Marianne McCann:	How's you?
[17:58]	Les White:	temp rezzers = evil
[17:58]	Marianne McCann:	cool!
[17:58]	Sindy Tsure:	it reports the sim/parcel full?
[17:58]	Simon Linden:	It sounds like you're hitting the max prim count for the region
[17:58]	Marianne McCann:	Bet I will!
[17:58]	Sindy Tsure:	we talked about this a few weeks ago.. which pool temp prims come out of
[17:58]	Marianne McCann:	I'll try it out when I get out of dis meetin thing
[17:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	Simulator Primitive Usage reports totral fo the corner of the region, so it's mislabeled.
[17:59]	Simon Linden:	You should also check the 'prim bonus' setting - that can skew what people can do in a parcel
[17:59]	Marianne McCann:	Thankoo - I'll try not to :-)
[17:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	it sometimes happens, when I'm scheduled to hold a building class.
[17:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	How do I do that?
[17:59]	Areth Gall:	I don't blame you
[17:59]	Sindy Tsure:	world menu -> region/estate
[18:00]	Sindy Tsure:	under the Region tab, look for OBject Bonus
[18:00]	Sindy Tsure thinks you do not need to be an estate manager to see that - it's read-only, though
[18:00]	Sindy Tsure:	wb, areth
[18:00]	Areth Gall:	and FYI, even if I find someone to be with, I will always love you and want you, and there will always be a spot open for you in my pack and as a mate, okay?
[18:00]	Marianne McCann sends a hug to you
[18:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Prim Bonus here is set to 1.000
[18:00]	Areth Gall:	Thanks.
[18:01]	Sindy Tsure:	yep.. no bonus prims!
[18:01]	Simon Linden:	Our time is about up .... thanks everyone for coming
[18:01]	Sindy Tsure:	try it on bay city
[18:01]	Sindy Tsure:	ty, simon!
[18:01]	Les White:	thanks simon
[18:01]	Marianne McCann:	Have fun, Simon!
[18:01]	Creem Pye:	btw guys, Periapse Linden Recommends avoiding the 1.20.15.93532 preview viewer, as it apparently trashes your release viewer settings
[18:01]	Simon Linden:	Great! I'm sure he's glad to become famous :)
[18:01]	Les White:	(vehicle optimization please! :)
[18:01]	Creem Pye:	thanks for your time!
[18:01]	Areth Gall:	Thanks for being here, Simon
[18:01]	Les White:	see you everyone
[18:01]	Areth Gall:	Although I liked your big feral av more :P
[18:01]	Marianne McCann:	Bye Bye!!
[18:02]	Simon Linden:	wow, you have a big collection
[18:02]	Sindy Tsure:	cya, all!
[18:02]	Areth Gall:	Alex isn't a female IRL :P
[18:02]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[18:02]	Areth Gall:	Alex isn't a female IRL :P
[18:02]	PulseBurst Flow:	bye all
[18:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm on 1.20.14, still, so I don't think the current viewer's been betaed.
[18:02]	Simon Linden:	Thanks for coming ... see you next time
[18:02]	Creem Pye:	I think per-prim phantom is the feature you want =)
[18:02]	Areth Gall pets the Simon anyway :P
[18:02]	Simon Linden:	:)
[18:02]	Areth Gall:	Hey! Get back here! I'm not done with you yet!