User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 09 23

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Hello Gaius
[11:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hi there, long time no see :)
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	It's been a while, yes.
[11:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ooo crayons?
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, this is my crayon gun
[11:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	XD
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	I really like it, so I've been wearing it for a few weeks
[11:04]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Crayons are not meant to be a weapon. :p
[11:04]	Gaius Goodliffe:	And only rarely a food item.
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	The Crayon is mightier than the tax form
[11:04]	Gaius Goodliffe:	hehe
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	every once in a while when I'm alone I shoot it around and build neat structures of crayon streams
[11:05]	Crayon Katyusha (trail) whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
[11:05]	Crayon Katyusha (trail) whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
[11:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Look out! He's got a crayon! :o
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	The Crayoninator
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler needs Crayon Houses, at his Burning Life Build: I started a new group, to contemplate how Second Life could be open to Helen Keller
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew , arawn, gauis
[11:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	nifty!
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	doesn't work as well on openspace regions
[11:06]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	Gonna re-log, be right back...
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	on normal regions there usually aren't any gaps in the streams
[11:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Anyone know where I can find Collosal Cave?
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	don't make me take out my gun:)
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	unfortunately, or fortunately, as the case may be, the streams are temp-on-rez
[11:06]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yeah, openspace performance went through the floor when H4 came out, and never quite recovered.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	There is a team that was working on some simulator performance stuff
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	in fact, Simon was one of the main guys on that team
[11:07]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Speak of the Devil... :)
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	wb
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, performance is not great, particularly with Open Spaces.
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	It's a variety of problems, there's no one-fix magic cure
[11:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	It sounds like more avies to the prim right
[11:08]	Gaius Goodliffe:	FWIW, on the topic of lingering bugs, I can confirm as of yesterday that bad rez attempts can still leave ghost objects (no prims, but their physics are there anyhow).
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	There are some improvements in the pipeline, such as a speed-up in our internal parser (I talked about that last week)
[11:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought that was bad delete atempts?
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	so as to not be ambibuous between what we used to call "ghost prims" -- objects that you could see but were no longer on the region, I've been calling them "ghost colliders"
[11:09]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Possibly...
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	er... ambiguous
[11:10]	Gaius Goodliffe:	In this case, it was invisible objects that you can still collide with.
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	right
[11:10]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Big invisible jet on my runway, quite a hazzard...
[11:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ambibuous, to be Ambitious or Ambiguous, but eager not to distinguish
[11:10]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I blame Wonder Woman.
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... Gaius, do you have a reliable repro recipe for that bug?
[11:11]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Nope. Seems to only happen when I try rezzing/deleting things during high lag.
[11:11]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The "ghost" remains until the sim is rebooted.
[11:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Maybe it could be used with a Griefer's Toy?
[11:12]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Nope.
[11:12]	Rex Cronon:	u can't view it, nor select it?
[11:12]	Rex Cronon:	does a scan detect it?
[11:12]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It's not there. But its physics are.
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	i thought the "collision body cleanup" code was really tight, but apparently there is still a bug there
[11:12]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Not sure about a scan...
[11:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Have you seen what data llVolumeDetect returns?
[11:13]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hmm. No, I
[11:13]	Gaius Goodliffe:	'l have to try that next time...
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Key, Mass, Owner?
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... that is an interesting idea, llVolumeDetect()
[11:13]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It only seems to happen about once every other month for me though...
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	It should collide
[11:14]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Just my luck, it won't happen again this year...
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Readiness is your best preention
[11:14]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I'll try to do some work on that problem... someday soon
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Preventive Pre-emption
[11:14]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I'll make a volume detector so I have it ready for next time.
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	Someone last Thursday made a box you could drop on something, and it would spit out info ... I didn't get a copy.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	I've just got so much stuff pliling up lately, it is hard to estimate a timeline on it
[11:15]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yeah not too hard to do...
[11:15]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	I'd be interested to know if an LLVolumeDetect() collision with the invisible collider returns valid info
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	if it does, then it means there is some particular type of data that really is lost
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	and that might offer a clue on how to track it down
[11:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	Can you flag the support requests, for Ghost Colliders?
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	that is... if the owner or other browsable info is valid on the detected object
[11:17]	Gaius Goodliffe:	FWIW, what happened to me the other day ways, I tried to rez a jet, nothing happened, then tried two more times. Finally, about 15 seconds later, two jets appears at the location. I deleted one, then hopped in the other and it became immediately obvious I was colliding with something, so I deleted the second and found there was still an invisible third that couldn't be seen or selected in any way, but the physical shape was there anyhow.
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	gaius, that is what happens when there is lag
[11:18]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	so someone new showing up would also not see the object, and it didn't show up in the parcel prim counts?
[11:18]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I neglected to check the parcel prim counts, unfortunately...
[11:18]	Gaius Goodliffe:	But it was definitely still there after I logged out and back in.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	and a relog for yourself did not reveal the invisible object?
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	oh ok
[11:18]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Right
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	if something doesn't show up , i have to rez boxes until finally all the boxes and the object show up all selected
[11:19]	Gaius Goodliffe:	In fact it lingered there for an hour or so, then I finally rebooted the sim and th ghost went away.
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	Well, if anyone notices the ghost collider, I'd be curious to know if it shows up on parcel counts too.
[11:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	About Land Objects?
[11:20]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Arwan
[11:20]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Last spring I had something similar happen while rezzing abuilding, and the prims then definintely did show up in ABout Land, but were unreturnable.
[11:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	If a ghost collider is set physical, does it still drop?
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Good question Arwan
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	I would guess "yes"
[11:21]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Good question. Alas, my jets only turn physical after you sit on them, and when it's not there, you can't, even though you can collide with it.
[11:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, we could rezz enought ping-pong balls, to lag the sim, and drop them on a collision detector
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	My desktop linux machine died last week, and I think the last office hour transcript is on the HD, so I haven't published it to the wiki yet
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	the motherboard died, so the HD is ok
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Are Motherboards still available for U$25?
[11:23]	Gaius Goodliffe:	If you want the kind that die quickly... :p
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Well, there was a spare demo motherboard sitting around the office, so I'm going to try to use that
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	unfortunately... the case I got for it had a bad power supply
[11:24]	Gaius Goodliffe:	(A decent motherboard runs around US$120-160 last time I looked.)
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	I'm almost cured of wanting to fight with computer hardware
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	Get one that was decent two years ago, the basic maintenance is to unplug and plug back in, and SL is supposed to be accessible
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	I've been out of touch on the latest MONO patch schedule
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	I think there was a release at the end of last week, and it got delayed
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	I think there's an update this week
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	The one at the end of last week didn't go out
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	ah yes, my email says a server deploy started yesterday
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	1.24.6
[11:27]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oh, on the subject of random feature requests -- I wish there was a way I could tell an object to not return to me upon going offworld without it having to be temp-on-rez. But not a big deal. (Just mention it because I just got a demo airship in my lost and found a moment ago.)
[11:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought that existed
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	die at edge?
[11:28]	Gaius Goodliffe:	If you turn on temp-on-rez it'll silently delete, but it'll also disappear after a minute, and on this particular model it's nice for people ot be able to walk around inside looking at it for 10 minutes or so before taking it on a test flight
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	die at edge sounds familiar
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	that isn't a scriptable setting? hrm....
[11:28]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hmm, I'll have to check... that might work (if it works, lol gotta love truisms)
[11:29]	Glitch Braess:	Hello everyone :)
[11:29]	Simon Linden:	Hi
[11:29]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	A quick scan of the code suggests that "die_at_edge" is not a feature yet
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	oh wait...
[11:30]	Object: Hello, Avatar!
[11:30]	Rex Cronon:	what?
[11:30]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Interesting... STATUS_DIE_AT_EDGE -- how long has that been there?
[11:31]	Gaius Goodliffe never noticed before.
[11:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	http://www.lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=llSetStatus
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	maybe it is a feature, there is one mention of it in the main script code
[11:31]	Glitch Braess:	Ha, that is interesting. I've never noticed it myself.
[11:31]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That may very well do exactly what I want, I'll have to experiement.
[11:31]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Thanks :)
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	whew! for once we had the feature in place already
[11:31]	Gaius Goodliffe:	hehe
[11:32]	Glitch Braess:	lol
[11:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	I was having a volume-detect follower dropping through the ground, but just set that to MoveToTarget where it was
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Welcome Glitch, we're just talking about whatever. If you have a question or topic just throw it out on the table.
[11:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	Resetting the things was cancelling MoveToTarget
[11:32]	Glitch Braess:	Alright. :)
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Gypsy Paz was having some problem with Vehicle Rezzers, for Burning Life, but he doesn't seem to be back from town, yet.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	One of the LL developers was quizzing me the other day to see how hard it would be to add per-prim phantom
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	It was something about having to reset the VEHICLE_LINEAR_FRICTION
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	however, he was a little startled to realize that phantom actually means "collides with terrain only"
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	and he was thinking about a truely collisionless property
[11:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	Volume Detect wasn't colliding with Terrain, when last I tried
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	VEHICLE_LINEAR_FRICTION was breaking the rezzability of his vehicles? I'm skeptical, but open minded.
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	VolumeDetect is truly collisionless, but with enter/exit callbacks
[11:35]	Gaius Goodliffe:	(That don't work reliably)
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Something the vehicles were doing, when rezzed, needed a setting in some cases, but not others. He's loacding donated vehicles
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	except against terrain, I don't think a callback happens there
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, he has access to the scripts of the donated vehicles?
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Well, this would be a good place to talk about new vehicle bugs.
[11:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	He should, but isn't on line, at the moment
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	ok
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	In order to make sub-prims truly collisionless, we'd have to add a new feature
[11:37]	Gaius Goodliffe:	(Notes https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3106 regarding llVolumeDetect and collsion_start/end calls.)
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	[X] Collisionless Checkbox
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Right Gaius, thanks for that link
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	that is just for the avatar right?
[11:40]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Not sure.
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	The avatar is a special object... I wonder if SVC-3106 is related to how we sometimes pin the avatar body in place under the hood
[11:41]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I also note that, although the bug says it's getting extra end events, it could be it's instead losing start events.
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... this sounds familiar
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	There was a bug where avatars would collect too many collision start/end events, and some content was relying on this buggy behavior
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	I fixed the bug, and then the content broke
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	but I can't remember the jira #'s for that
[11:42]	Gaius Goodliffe:	XD a misfeatre, then
[11:42]	Gaius Goodliffe:	*misfeature
[11:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	MisFeature or MisCreature
[11:43]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It would seem to me that regardless of the amount, the number of starts and ends ought to be the same..
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-3106 was created recently, so it may be new
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if the bug was introduced in MONO instead of Havok4 project
[11:44]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hmmm. Could be...
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	well, it has a nice repro recipe, including the script, so it should be easy to track down
[11:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	Stick an avatar on a spindle, between Mono and older version
[11:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	But as McCabe notes, these events have long been observed to be unreliable...
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	indeed
[11:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Might have been around since H1...
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	also, there were some fixes for collision event handling... related to SVC-2511, that is in the 1.25-Server branch
[11:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	A nice feature, if we could view collision forms, as with Sculpties, could we also see the Primatars?
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	there is a small chance that the spurious VolumeDetect events are related to that, but not sure.
[11:47]	Gaius Goodliffe resists the urge to swich to his primatar.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Arwan, that would be a nice feature.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect the pressure for that feature to build until it must get done
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	the subject of mesh primitives came up again internally in LL last week or the week before
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	that is, providing a way to import meshes via some 3D design tool (maya, blender, whatever)
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	but if we support mesh objects then the collision shapes will also have to be supported
[11:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sculpties are Viewer Side Textures, I'd expect Collision Mesh to burden the Sim
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	and sculpties need to start colliding correctly
[11:49]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I've been told OpenSim supports that now (accurate collision shapes for sculties).
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	and builders are going to need to be able to visualize the true collision shapes
[11:49]	Gaius Goodliffe:	*sculpties
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	so, is ll going to allow users to upoad .obj files?
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I'm not surprised that sculpties would already collide correctly in OpenSim
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	dunno Rex
[11:50]	Arawn Spitteler:	Builders shouold be able to see collisibility, as for Hugger-Trains and Sculpties, and the Sitting Challenges, but Sculpty Colliders sound Sim-Costly
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	the topic pops up again and again over the years
[11:51]	Gaius Goodliffe:	(To the extent anything does -- lol -- last time I looked at opensim the physics seemed a bit wonky).
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	I think it will eventually get done, and mabye *.obj files will be supported
[11:51]	Rex Cronon:	if that is allowed, what r sculpties good for?
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	I'm unfamiliar with that format
[11:51]	Rex Cronon:	very simple format, even a human can read and understand it:)
[11:52]	Simon Linden:	I seem to recall it wasn't .obj files, but the format itself isn't the real problem, as someone (if not LL) will write an obj converter quickly
[11:52]	Simon Linden:	The complication coming up was specifying all the levels of detail, which are needed for both rendering and physics
[11:53]	Simon Linden:	Plus any SL specific attributes
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	right, the feature needed is mesh primitives, and some import/export path
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	two features
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	the two features are mesh primitives, some import/export path, and correct collisions
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	... three features
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	Like specifying the levels of detail for Second Life, or Natural Philosophy. Levels of Detail might be something to be optimized on an ad-hoc basis
[11:54]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, there's all sorts of triangle reduction methods out there. Some of it can be automated, but a builder is likely to want to see the results and tweak it
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	the three features are mesh primitives, some import/export path, correct collisions, and multi-group chat sessions
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	... four features!
[11:54]	Gaius Goodliffe:	BTW, this there a good reason why sculpty landing gear would be affected by prim seam collision problems more than non-sculpty landing gear (cut spheres, for example)? I made some sculpty landing gear, and the planes I made using them seem to hit the seams between prims on my runway a lot harder.
[11:55]	Arawn Spitteler's not expected by the Spanish Inquisition: "Our three main weapons are: Suprise; Fear; A fanatical devotion to the Pope; these nifty red uniforms."
[11:55]	Gaius Goodliffe:	hehe
[11:55]	Simon Linden:	Yes, a cut sphere will have a more accurate shape in the physics engine
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Gaius, sculpties collide as convex hull's of torii, so I guess yeah they might be affected by prim seams more... they have more triangles that some other shapes
[11:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	mmm
[11:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Makes sense. About time I replaced the runway with a big megaprim anyhow...
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	although, it may also just have to do with other things... the anti-prim-seams-magic is kinda complicated
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought we had that one beat, by scripting the taper
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	points go to Arwan for catching the Monty Python reference I was going for.
[11:58]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That could be, Arawn. It never seemed like a big problem before so I never bothered to play with the taper on the runway prims. At this point, it'll be simpler to just replace the series of prims with one long one.
[11:59]	Gaius Goodliffe has a 120m long prim around here somewhere, should be perfect for the job.)
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Any last minute topics? This hour is almost up.
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	Should probably give it a try, with the taper trick, then just replace with the mega prim
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is the Primitar centered at Agent Target?
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	AgentTarget?
[12:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The problem with the taper trick is, you then need something on the sides to disguise the holes created by the tapering
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	I understand you can taper it zero, as long as the prim thinks itelf tapered.
[12:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	o.O
[12:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Okay, Ill have to look into this...
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	When we define seating, we set the target location for agent target. advanced -> Character ->..
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	I've heard of that zero-taper oddness. I wonder if this is actually some quantization error thing that is actually introducing a non-zero positive taper
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	llDetectedPos returns the Pelvis, but the Displayed Target is elsewhere.
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	but I haven't been able to get to looking at that
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Ah... the seated primitar is a different shape
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	and is not exactly centered at AvatarTarget
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's a bother, if you just want to say "/0Set Teleport", nd hte teleport then send people into the floor
[12:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Primitar isn't effected by Animation?
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	that is, the center of mass of the shape does not conincide with the avatar's center... there is some slight offset, as I recall
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	No, the avatar's collision shape (primitar, in this context) is not affected by animation
[12:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Stairs should teleport climbers on click, but we can't jsut position the builder, and touch to set
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	you could have an animation that moves the avatar around in some fancy dance, but the collidable shape will remain in place
[12:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, when linked, the Primitar has a shape, different from when standing, by neither are where we're able to see, or where llDetectedPos is going to see
[12:05]	Rex Cronon:	like this:)
[12:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Right! :)
[12:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Four different positions for your convenience. :)
[12:05]	Andrew Linden:	yes Arwan, the actual collidable shape of the seated avatar is different from the standing avatar shape
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	and the center of the collidable is not necessarily the center of the avatar as seen on the client
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	or as reported by some script detector
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	however, the shape and offset are tweaked to attempt to provide an ok collision proxy for the appearent seated avatar shape
[12:06]	Rex Cronon:	is there any way to get the actuall pos of an av, taking in consideration the animations?
[12:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Advanced -> Character -> Show Agent Target, that has no more to do with Primitar, than does llDetectedPos?
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	a script detector should report the avatar's true position
[12:07]	Gaius Goodliffe:	"Where am I?" has many different answers. "Actual pos" is a point of view.
[12:07]	Rex Cronon:	no, it doesn't
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	that is, the true position as used by the simulator code to figure out which parcel the avatar is standing on, which region it is in, etc
[12:07]	Rex Cronon:	only particles can point to an avatar
[12:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	llDetectedPos goes to Center of Bounding Box, from my observation
[12:07]	Rex Cronon:	but u can't ask them for that pos
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	"center of bounding box" and distinct from... what? Arwan
[12:08]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Particles show apparent position (i.e. visible position), not "actual" position.
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	that is, "center of bounding box" is not what you expeted?
[12:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Agent Target tends to be in front.
[12:09]	Rex Cronon:	yes, visible pos, that is what i am interested in obtaining
[12:09]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The problem is that visible pos is client dependent.
[12:09]	Andrew Linden:	no Rex, the visible position is a client-side adjustment
[12:09]	Rex Cronon:	there is no way right now to get that:(
[12:09]	Andrew Linden:	the simulator does not know about visible position
[12:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	About here, for me
[12:09]	Gaius Goodliffe:	And it will be a different answer for different people.
[12:09]	Rex Cronon:	the viewer(s) do know
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	Gaius is correct.
[12:10]	Gaius Goodliffe:	SL Relativity. :) Like Special Relatively, but even more special. ;)
[12:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	I built a follower, that hugs my hips, as myu position
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	alright, thanks for showing up. I've got to go soon.
[12:11]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[12:11]	Simon Linden:	Bye everyone
[12:11]	Rex Cronon:	have fun:)
[12:11]	Glitch Braess:	Nice seeing you all. :)
[12:11]	Gaius Goodliffe:	see ya later
[12:11]	Rex Cronon:	nice . sim down:(
[12:11]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Be excellent to each other. :)
[12:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	File a support ticket?