User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 10 02

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:20]	Leendert Meriman gave you Leendert Meriman Phantom train collisions.
[17:21]	Sindy Tsure:	heya andrew
[17:21]	Kitto Flora:	I didint try this before
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	hello, I got totally sidetracked today
[17:21]	Kitto Flora:	Trying it in a new very weird vehicle
[17:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	hi, Andrew, come join us, we're just making bets, on whether Simon will show
[17:22]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[17:22]	Kitto Flora:	Hello Andrew
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	unfortunately I can't stay too late, I've got to be somehwere before 19:00
[17:22]	Kitto Flora:	Yo uare somewhere already :)
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	yes, but not that somewhere
[17:23]	Sindy Tsure:	can't just teleport there??
[17:23]	Kitto Flora things 'over the rainbow'
[17:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Have your wife go there, with a streaming Server. I keep telling CG to get one for his airplane
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	maybe these hours can get along withou me ;-)
[17:23]	Sindy Tsure eeks!
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	Should I grab the chat logs from the beginning of the hour?
[17:23]	Kitto Flora:	No no, we need someone to rag on :)
[17:24]	Sindy Tsure:	i don't think you missed a ton, andrew
[17:24]	Rex Cronon:	no, need for logs
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	ok lessee if I have any news...
[17:24]	Kitto Flora:	Only new item I'm looking at has to do with Permissions and border crossings. Not exactly H$ stuff
[17:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	Any news on SVC-2931?
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	Alas, not much has happened since Tuesday, and I don't have much personal progress to report (I had to take Wed off)
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	The feeling on SVC-2931 is that we don't want to fix it, but would like to make an official feature that works for what people were using it for.
[17:26]	Sindy Tsure:	that's the slpp tp stuff?
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	yes
[17:27]	Sindy Tsure:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-212 !!! 291 votes!
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't had a chance to talk to the people who know why the LLTeleport idea had to be abandoned.
[17:27]	Sindy Tsure:	llTeleportAgent feature request
[17:27]	Sindy Tsure:	oh
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	There was some grief mode that they didn't have a good solution for
[17:28]	Sindy Tsure:	is there such a capability as use-once permissions?
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	no I don't think so Sindy
[17:28]	Sindy Tsure:	like, if you ask for debit or animate and it's accepted, it's good forever
[17:28]	Sindy Tsure thought that having a use-once permission would be good for the teleport stuff
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	I think that was perhaps the problem... people giving perms to teleport and then getting teleported endlessly by malicious object
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	but not sure
[17:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	Even llTeleportAgent has to be owned by parcel owner
[17:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	llTeleportAgentHome
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	that would wreak some havoc on some of our servers I'm sure... 1000 people in never-ending-teleport loop
[17:29]	Sindy Tsure:	having no idea how the sim code works, it sounds easy enough to do
[17:30]	Sindy Tsure:	the use-once perms
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	It is always easier said than done
[17:30]	Kitto Flora:	Problem is how to disciminate between say a stargate - what yo walk thru and expect to move many sims away... and a grifer object that you get near and get teleported many sims away
[17:30]	Sindy Tsure:	but how much easier?? :)
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	I've got this notion that the designers involved didn't work too hard to come up with a clever solution/feature-design that would make it possible to do
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	however, I'm not sure how valid that notion is
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	which is why I wanted to ask around to see what people remember about that feature discussion
[17:31]	Sindy Tsure:	would would be nice would be a permission popup that said the slurl it was going to
[17:31]	Kitto Flora:	Yeah
[17:32]	Sindy Tsure:	"object MyStarGate would like to teleport you to RegionX"
[17:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	If you get teleported, you should get a notice of by what
[17:32]	Kitto Flora:	Like if the llTeleport() is for more than say 20 M it pops up a yes/no query to the target Av
[17:32]	Sindy Tsure:	or "object Skybox would like to teleport you to location x/y on this region you're already on"
[17:32]	Kitto Flora:	Mmm - anything like that
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	wheneve you include UI popups (a sequence of UI actions that need to complete before something happens) they it starts to get complicated pretty quickly
[17:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm not sure that even exists for bans. It's causing some problems at Mystic Academy
[17:33]	Kitto Flora:	Well Buying stuff uses a UI yes/no
[17:33]	Kitto Flora:	Also 'quit' does :)
[17:33]	Sindy Tsure:	that's driven by the UI, though
[17:33]	Sindy Tsure wonders if that makes a difference
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	oh it can be done, just saying that the implementation starts to get much harder than just saying it
[17:34]	Kitto Flora:	Yep
[17:34]	Sindy Tsure nods
[17:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	Soylent Green Collectors would be moving entire parties, without asking
[17:34]	Kitto Flora:	And we know what a lazy lot programmers are!
[17:34]	Rex Cronon:	really kitto
[17:34]	Rex Cronon:	i thought the motto was "work smart not hard" :)
[17:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	If they weren't lazy, they wouldnt strive so for efficiency
[17:35]	Sindy Tsure:	lazy is ok.. it's unmotivated that's the problem
[17:35]	Sindy Tsure spends much time enabling her lazyness
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	the properly lazy programmer would have implemented generic UI paths that could be easily co-opted for various types of pop-up, give permissions, complete features
[17:35]	Kitto Flora:	That needs programmers who think ahead
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	some of those generic UI paths probably exist. I don't dig into the SL viewer code much these days
[17:35]	Kitto Flora:	Thinking ahead needs experience
[17:36]	Sindy Tsure mentions http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22 before she forgets.. vehicle sim crossing to a full parcel bug
[17:36]	Sindy Tsure:	:)
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for that Sindy (twitch)
[17:36]	Kitto Flora:	But yes - the pop-up dialog stuff is in the client... and would need to be triggered out of the script engine
[17:36]	Kitto Flora:	Its more like a Dialog op than anything
[17:36]	Sindy Tsure:	i can dig up a targetomega one to mention every week instead, if you'd like
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	Special call on Dialog
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	oof
[17:37]	Sindy Tsure:	lol
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	I like SVC-22 better than any TargetOmega bug
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	especially since I actually aspire to fixing SVC-22 someday
[17:37]	Sindy Tsure:	yay!
[17:38]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. there's another one i was hoping for an opinion on.. dunno if it's your area, though
[17:38]	Sindy Tsure digs for the number
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	There was some activity on SVC-2511 this week. Mostly someone complaining about why it hasn't been delivered yet.
[17:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's SVC-2511?
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	the 1.25-Server is waiting for some finished projects to get merged back in
[17:39]	Sindy Tsure:	"Serious Object-Avatar collision problems in 1.22.2 and above"
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	-22 looks messy. and old. Whats the current situation with that?
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-2511 is about bullets not colliding with an avatar, going right through
[17:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	I just flew through a roof, in Burning Lag
[17:39]	Sindy Tsure:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1224 is the one i was wondering about.. feature request for llParcelSay
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	-22 is related to a few other bugs about how objects can be moved or created over sim boundaries even when the far parcel doesn't allow it
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	The griefers ... er 'combat operative' always seem to get attention.
[17:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	I then fell a couple hundred meterus underground
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	Arawan - sounds like the usual packet loss problem
[17:41]	Sindy Tsure:	no.. there's some semi-new bug there.. prims start acting as phantom for certain people for a while
[17:41]	Sindy Tsure:	clears up if you move away or sit on something
[17:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	PAcket loss wouldn't have explained my moving through an object, and staying moved through
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	I'll have to read SVC-1224 in more detail later
[17:41]	Kitto Flora:	Oh yeah - temp phantom prims. Already talked about that with Andrew
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	I dont like the temp phantom solution - its weird
[17:42]	Sindy Tsure:	it just asks for llParcelSay.. similar to llRegionSay but only goes to objects/people on the parcel that the script is on
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-2511, and the "objects sometimes phantom for some people" bugs are not packet loss problems.
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	Yes Andrew
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	I'm unfamiliar with llRegionSay() what is that about?
[17:42]	Sindy Tsure:	it's like llSay but goes to the entire region
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	(my packet loss comment was directed at 'going many meters underground)
[17:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	Object to object communication
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	ah I see
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	llParcelSay() would communicate to... objects on the parcel?
[17:43]	Sindy Tsure:	yep
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	All objects? Just those specified?
[17:43]	Sindy Tsure:	or avatars, if you said channel 0
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	hrm...
[17:44]	Sindy Tsure:	just like llSay but is parcel-bound, not volume-bound
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	well I'll think about it, and maybe mention it to Babbage
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	as I've mentioned before, new LSL functionality has been waiting for MONO to settle
[17:44]	Sindy Tsure:	great! it doesn't have a ton of votes but it'd be really helpful
[17:44]	Sindy Tsure:	yepyep.. i understand
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	however, I haven't seen much discussion about banging out some new LSL features
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	so I wonder how those are faring on the busy schedule
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps I'm not haning out on the right communication channels to get some of the chatter
[17:46]	Sindy Tsure:	babbage is one of the office hours i'd like to attend.. rl work expects me to show up when he has his, though
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	I've got some internal utility project coming up that I'm going to be inheriting from on of the other devs when he goes on extended vacation
[17:47]	Sindy Tsure:	anything fun?
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	other than that, I've been participating in one of the internal bug triage queues
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	and am trying to wrap up gcc-4 stuff on the side, and fix a few maintenance bugs when I get a chance
[17:48]	Kitto Flora:	Oh - I looked at the 'Show in Search' flags on my stuff - they were still set ok.
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	that's what I've been doing lately. Not a lot of time to devote to all these bugs that need to get fixed.
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	I'm hoping to wrap up this util project as soon as I can so I can get back to fixing bugs.
[17:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's a utility?
[17:49]	Sindy Tsure:	things still being reorg'ed into layers?
[17:49]	Kitto Flora:	So its official - the doubling of sim load for vehicles will never be fixed?
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	ah right, the mysterious "show on search bit gets cleared" problem
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... mabye no Kitto. I think the sim performance team is still going at it, however they've also been picking up emergency problems too
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	Simon was eyeing some performance problems with vehicles earlier
[17:50]	Arawn Spitteler:	Draining the swamp waits on the alligators
[17:51]	Kitto Flora:	Elephants and camles
[17:51]	Kitto Flora:	And snakes
[17:51]	Sindy Tsure:	and frog
[17:51]	Kitto Flora:	'Animated animals'
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	right, frog
[17:51]	Rex Cronon:	tanks?
[17:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	I was trying to rez that
[17:51]	Kitto Flora:	Those are the latest big sim loads
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	oh, the gadget only listens to you Sindy?
[17:51]	Rex Cronon:	u want it back?
[17:52]	Sindy Tsure:	yep
[17:52]	Sindy Tsure:	hm.. you didn't get a frog tho, andrew.. do scripts not hear chat from people in god mode?
[17:52]	Leaving god mode, level 200
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	Anyone know if Animated Animals use vehicle script?
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	frog (non admin mode)
[17:53]	Sindy Tsure:	oops.. misread.. no - it listens to everybody
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	ah there is my frog
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	seems to be working now
[17:53]	Sindy Tsure:	avoid the plural...
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	must have to do with admin mode
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	Plagues
[17:54]	Sindy Tsure:	particles? i can't seem to snag one..
[17:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is this vehicle hung up, or just slow?
[17:54]	Kitto Flora:	Which vehicle?
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	ah, Arwan are you riing that blue column we see?
[17:55]	Sindy Tsure:	ooo.. it's a tornado
[17:55]	Kitto Flora:	I see it now
[17:55]	Kitto Flora:	was out of frame for me
[17:55]	Sindy Tsure:	i think you're hung up, arawn
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	looks like is just slow Arawn
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	the simulator performance appears to be fine
[17:56]	Kitto Flora:	This sim is running LSL slow
[17:56]	Kitto Flora:	But its a 'open space' ?
[17:56]	Sindy Tsure:	it's an openspace
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	oh right, this is an open space region
[17:56]	Sindy Tsure:	yep
[17:57]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. speaking of lsl feature requests.. having a say to tell openspace vs full sim is another popular one
[17:57]	Sindy Tsure:	though what most people would like is to be able to see it in the Buy Land floater
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	yes, that would be nice
[17:57]	Kitto Flora:	Too many new SL land renters/owners getting duped
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	ugh
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	yes, there should be some UI indication
[17:58]	Sindy Tsure:	have you seen the tornado hud by Tryptofaa Sands, Arawn? it's pretty wild
[17:58]	Kitto Flora:	Not just indication - education ...
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	I'd rather get rid of open-space entirely, but I think that would be hard
[17:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	This one was for the DMV, but is too slow, in my opinion
[17:58]	Sindy Tsure:	jack would have kittens, i think
[17:58]	Kitto Flora:	many I talk to know its 'open space' but not how thats going to burn em
[17:59]	Sindy Tsure:	said oPINion..
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	why is a large pushpin associated with opinion?
[17:59]	Kitto Flora:	o PIN ion
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	oh, pin
[17:59]	Sindy Tsure:	again, avoid the plural
[17:59]	Kitto Flora:	pin pin pin pin
[17:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ion means Gone, though
[18:00]	Kitto Flora:	Line no pins?
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	just one per chat
[18:00]	Kitto Flora:	We are sooo stuck up
[18:00]	Sindy Tsure:	yep.. it'd be spam city at my place if i did more than the 1st one on a line
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	ack, it is 18:00. I'm going to have to leave very soon'
[18:01]	Kitto Flora:	ANyways - I'd be educating a 'open space' ower/renter every week now, if it wernt that sales have tanked
[18:01]	Sindy Tsure:	the forums usually have some rant about it..
[18:01]	Sindy Tsure:	again, that seems like it'd be low-hanging fruit.. the sim has to know if it's openspace, doesn't it?
[18:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, I found a counter theory, on why the recent surge. The Lehman Brothers have more time to explore
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	yes Sindy, it shouldn't be too hard
[18:02]	Crayon Katyusha (trail) whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
[18:02]	Crayon Katyusha (trail) whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
[18:02]	Sindy Tsure:	the linden that fixes that will be up to their ears in resident brownie points
[18:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Do new customers not known, that it's prims that cost?
[18:03]	Kitto Flora:	Its scripted items that kill em
[18:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sounds like a Torly Video, comeing
[18:03]	Kitto Flora:	They put 3000 scripts out and wonder why nothing works
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	alright, gotta go, sorry I was late
[18:03]	Sindy Tsure:	cya, andrew! ty!
[18:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	See you, Andrew
[18:04]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye Andrew
[18:04]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew