User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 11 11

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:00]	Arawn Spitteler heard this funny, one day: Good Mourning, all.
[11:00]	Kitto Flora wonders if Andrew is still on vacation
[11:00]	Kitto Flora:	Ah here he is
[11:00]	Kitto Flora:	Hi Andrew
[11:00]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning Andrew.
[11:00]	Andrew Linden:	Hello
[11:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Andrew. I notice that floor is still grass.
[11:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is it a simple matter of laying four floors?
[11:01]	Feynt Mistral:	Grass?
[11:01]	Feynt Mistral:	I don't see grass.
[11:01]	Kitto Flora:	Where is it grass?
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	What floor Arawn?
[11:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	In a welcome center
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right, yeah I just deleted the floor prims.
[11:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is that a 10X10 area?
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	The grass works fine.
[11:02]	Kitto Flora:	Hi Simon
[11:02]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning Simon.
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	Hi
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	CG was just mentioning, he doesn't like flying across SL, with borders every 256 meters. What would be needed, for a script to designate the relative sim?
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Supposedly the server-1.25 release was supposed to start yesterday or today
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	but it got pushed a day or two out
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	I'll have to double check my email
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	CG Mentioned a QA Bottleneck
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:04]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning, Rex.
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	I think the pilot roll is still on for today
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	Says 12th and 17-18
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	Hi Rex
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	hiii
[11:04]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning Morgaine.
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	On the status feed
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, a pilot roll that will sit for ... half a week
[11:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	'Morning Andrew
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	Whats new? I have 2 strange things to report
[11:05]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning, j3rry
[11:05]	Sheet Spotter:	Oops. Bad aim. Sorry folks.
[11:05]	j3rry Paine:	hiya folks
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	I don't have any other news. Got any Simon?
[11:05]	Feynt Mistral:	I've got nothing in particular to report, just requests. >)
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	btw, seems like ghost mode is "fixed" in 1.25, it was nice while it lasted
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Oh really? Hrm..
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Must have been a bug I fixed a long time ago.
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	Not really ... did some performance testing, but didnt' find anything new: llRezObject and llSetPos() are slow :(
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Well, some bugs do get fixed when you ignore them (or forget).
[11:06]	Feynt Mistral:	Heh
[11:06]	Morgaine Dinova chuckles
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	do u have gremlins that fix them for u:)
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	llSetPos() is slow? on an object? or on a sub-prim?
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	When it's moving something into a complex physical situation
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes.
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	Either a big mesh, or a large simulation island
[11:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nah, bugs get fixed at the next system rewrite, so if you wait long enough ..... ;-)
[11:07]	Feynt Mistral:	>)
[11:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	hey all
[11:07]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning Saijanai.
[11:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Sai
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	hi again
[11:08]	Feynt Mistral:	My only requests are mega prims and more accurate physics modeling of sculpties. >)
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	i have a question andrew regardind how much stress does a phatom prim put on the physics engine
[11:09]	Feynt Mistral:	Nice, white board.
[11:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	It shouldn;'t be any
[11:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	freebie from Damen Hax using new touch event calls
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	Ok first of all... megaprims and proper collisions for sculpties would be nice. Unfortunately they are on the back burner. Hopefully in 2009.
[11:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	was totally useless in last sim it was so laggy better here
[11:10]	Feynt Mistral nods.
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Phantom prims don't put any significant load on the system. Phantom objects are actually in a different "collision group" (collides with terrain only) and the collisions are culled very early in the physics engine pipeline
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	sigh... where is the preference setting that disables the little tool-tips?
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	i was accused of lagging the sim with a 27 linked set, all prims phantom
[11:11]	Kitto Flora:	I have a strange bug - in the category 'anyone seen something like this before'....
[11:12]	Lalinda Lovell:	rex, theres more to that story, and these lindens arent on the G team
[11:12]	Sheet Spotter:	View, Hover Tips, Show Tips, or CTRL-SHIFT-T
[11:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	yeah, well, 27 physical rotating megaprims is its own reward
[11:12]	Rex Cronon:	the things is adrew is the one that knows the most about how h4 works
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	no, 27, 10x10x10 prims
[11:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm dreading h8 ;-)
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Dynamic phantom objects are about as expensive a non-phantom objects.
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Had it been a dynamic objectr?
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	I have a train owner who has a large track layout in a mainland sim. In one area the track crosses a Linden Road. Sometimes when the train ccrosses the Linden parcel, it is stopped when it tries to cross back into the owner's parcel.
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	thanks Sheet for that hover-tip help
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	i tried those in different sims and i get now lag
[11:14]	Feynt Mistral:	I can't say I have encountered that, Kitto. But then I don't go to the mainland much.
[11:14]	Lalinda Lovell:	rex you told us they were 30x30x30 megaprims
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... Kitto I don't know what would cause that
[11:14]	Feynt Mistral:	I have done train work though.
[11:15]	Lalinda Lovell:	trains crossing sims are a problem because one end reaches the new sim and the other end is still in the old
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	Whats even more weird is that the owner claims it only happens when someone else is riding and the owner is off-line.
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler imagines Rex got no lag, where he gets now lag: It does sounds strange, that the train wouldn't work on its owner's parcel
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	THis is parcel border crossing, not sim border crossing.
[11:15]	Rex Cronon:	no. i never said there were megaprims
[11:15]	Saijanai Kuhn checks back over log
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Right, parcel border crossing -- it is a mystery
[11:16]	Lalinda Lovell:	rex, we all saw your IM and you said mega, dont recant, jeez
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	Whats a mystery about parcel border crossing?
[11:16]	Hermit Barber:	Greetings all.
[11:16]	Rex Cronon:	this is it
[11:16]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning, Hermit.
[11:16]	Rex Cronon:	i never said that, check your logs
[11:16]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Andrew on that whiteboard thing, what would cause tempon rez prims to lag so bad? Just general lagginess?
[11:16]	Rex Cronon:	hii
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, just saying that I don't know what is happening there with that train stopping on entering a parcel
[11:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	phanom tempon rez, .01 diameter
[11:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, Temp On, not...
[11:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew, would the non-penetration of next-gen avatars by hair and clothes fall under your area?
[11:17]	Lalinda Lovell:	kitto, i know why, IM me if you like
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	What "whiteboard thing" ? Saijanai?
[11:17]	Sheet Spotter:	The green whiteboard thingy. LOL
[11:17]	Feynt Mistral:	I think interpenetration of meshes would fall into client side rendering, not physics.
[11:18]	Sheet Spotter:	It's across the table from you.
[11:18]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its laggy as heck in some places, and super responsive in others
[11:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	Has he tried drawing a parcel boundary, on his parcel?
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	No, avatar animation collisions and avatar-attachment collisions would be a client-side feature.
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, the question Saijanai is why your scripts are so laggy in this region?
[11:20]	Gaius Goodliffe:	This is an openspace. :p
[11:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	OK, so strictly own-attachment issues are client-side only. What about foreign objects? Non-penetration of bounding boxes is server-side I assume.
[11:20]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that might be, yeah. Its a very simple script though
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	The answer to that would be because this is an OpenSpace region which has terrible script performance.
[11:20]	Saijanai Kuhn:	o
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	Thats why - LSL here is running at 10% speed
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	Saijanai - I've been watching the script times and don't see that whiteboard showing up near the top scripts, so it doesn't look like a script thing here
[11:21]	Rex Cronon:	until u start drawing?
[11:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	OK. I'm wondering about its behavior. It does cleint-side mouse tracking I'm sure, then sends the info to the server
[11:21]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Simon: Scripts just don't get as much time in openspaces, regardless of whether they're heavy script load or they're heavy use or not.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Morgain, what do you mean by "foriegn objects"?
[11:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Non-attached
[11:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Ahhhh....
[11:21]	Gaius Goodliffe:	From what I can tell, events get delivered much more rarely.
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	The avatar does have a collision proxy shape on the server.
[11:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's just a rough lozenge, right?
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	That is the shape that is used between the avatar and normal (non-attached) objects in-world.
[11:22]	Saijanai Kuhn:	interesting with 2 peole going it conflates our mouse movements
[11:22]	Feynt Mistral:	We're all just boxes. >)
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	Heh - looses another 2% when you draw
[11:23]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Also llSleep and timer events end up way off.
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sopunds like the White Board is using UV Picking
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, the shape of the avatar is roughly a capsule with a sharp bottom... a modified cylinder or so.
[11:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	yep
[11:23]	Gaius Goodliffe:	(Might really be the same thing.)
[11:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	though, I can't tell the dif between UV and ST
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sounds like a stretched egg, is that the whole mass volume of an avie?
[11:24]	Sheet Spotter:	I think you can see the AV collision approximation with Advanced menu, Character, Show Collision Skeleton.
[11:25]	Saijanai Kuhn:	these new calls *could* be very useful for a lotofthings, but lag is an issue
[11:25]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning, Ellla
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, the avatar's shape is sorta like a deformed egg. The avatar mass is set explicitly... heavier than similarly sized objects in-world.
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	The avatar shape only rotates about the Z-axis, this is true even when you're avatar is flying, or in the "fall down" animation state.
[11:25]	Hermit Barber:	Saijanai was feeling elated/Although his scripts were somewhat belated/We all sat and saw/The green whiteboard draw/Until all the mouse moves were conflated.
[11:26]	Feynt Mistral:	That's kind of sad, actually.
[11:26]	Feynt Mistral:	I'd like it if the avatar COULD rotate around other axii.
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	nice poetry:)
[11:26]	Arawn Spitteler:	The Primatar is angled when sitting, in case we want to die on slopes?
[11:26]	Feynt Mistral:	It might make it possible to fake non-ground gravitational forces.
[11:27]	Saijanai Kuhn:	speaking of rotations. CLick on the transparent sphere
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Actually, the avatar gets a different shape when sitting.
[11:27]	Feynt Mistral:	So for instance, Mario Galaxy simulations. >)
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	It changes shape when sitting, sort of a trapezoid thing
[11:27]	Lalinda Lovell:	Andrew Linden: Yeah, the avatar's shape is sorta like a deformed egg. <-- poor sai's avi :P
[11:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well I think most of the avatar-NG issues relate to attachments, so progress won't be limited by server-side. But that still leaves av-av interactions, which are very coarse atm. I'm wondering how server-side enforced bounding boxes can be handled with a resolution fine enough to be socially useful.
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, I think the SL client has to be much smarter about how avatars collide
[11:28]	Saijanai Kuhn:	howdoes the realXtend client handle things?
[11:28]	Feynt Mistral:	I thought you said the SL client doesn't do physics at all though.
[11:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, does the server-side bounding box appear as a rendering option in client debug? I should have looked
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	the server can get them close, and preven them from standing in the exact same spot, but it would be up to the client to do any high resolution collisions
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	No, the server-side collision shape is not known to the client, however the server's notion of the avatar's center is known.
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Animations can cause the avatar to be drawn off-center from its server location.
[11:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is there anyway for a script to get Primatar Information?
[11:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: fair enough, and that puts the load where it belongs, in the clients. But that means that the server-side bounding box has to get out of the way, if the clients compute that a given movement is possible.
[11:30]	Feynt Mistral:	Oh, that's what you meant.
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	No Morgaine, the SL client needs to be smart enough to draw the avatar slightly off from center if it is colliding with something
[11:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, but I'm not talking about animations, they're just a rendering fiction.
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	that is, the client could just try as hard as possible to draw the avatar in the right spot, but could shift it as necessary for hugs, ledge climbing, and other things
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	I'm talking about real-time animation adjustments
[11:32]	Lalinda Lovell:	could it also block sexual actions, as in a PG sim?
[11:32]	Feynt Mistral:	Speaking of shifting as necessary for hugs and such, it'd be nice if llPushObject or even llApplyImpulse could rotate avatars. >)
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	No Arawn, I don't think there are any current LSL interfaces for getting "primitar properties", alghtough I'm not sure what properties would be useful.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Feynt, I had some ideas on how to allow the avatar to be rotated.
[11:33]	Feynt Mistral:	Woot.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	it is harder than one might think... right now the server obeys the SL client's notion of where the avatar is pointing
[11:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	When setting a teleport stairway, I found that getting the Avatar location, though llDetectedPos left the avatar teleporting upstairs too low.
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	so the server has to be able to provide a feedback hint to the client as to where the avatar should be pointing or how it is rotating
[11:34]	Feynt Mistral:	So... The server listens to the client about how it's rotated, but... the client listens to where the server thinks the client is in the world? Madness.
[11:34]	Gaius Goodliffe:	There's no problem rotating an avatar while they're seated, why is it so hard when they're not?
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	the client could then decide to honor the hint, or ignore it
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	that is probably the only way to go forward on that feature.
[11:35]	Feynt Mistral slips Andrew a copy of QuakeWorld's source. >3
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	When the avatar is seated the collision shape is locked to the seat. You can look any direction you want.
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	That is, you can go into mouselook and rotate any direction.
[11:35]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Or alt-cam.
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	When the avatar is standing and you go into mouselook the collision shape will try to rotate to follow the look-at direction.
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	so when the seated avatar moves and the client view follows... that is because the client is deciding to follow the seat
[11:37]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Right. So why doesn't the client follow the rotation when not seated?
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	Theres currently a bug in that
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	Hence, that is why any "sever side rotation of the avatar" is going to have to come down as a "suggestion" by the server
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	the client would have to decide whether to follow the suggestion or not... depending on what camera mode it is in
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	These seats force our cameras. Could that rotate us?
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	If you sit on a cube, default the view locked to the Av. Then edit the cube to 100M away, the cobe moves, The avatar does not!
[11:38]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Right. And it does all this, now, when seated. I don't see why it's any more difficult for the client to do the same thing when not seated...
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	It isn't simple Gaius. The apparent view that the SL client provides is totally independent of the server
[11:39]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	the graphics engine gets to decide where the camera is
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	so when you are seated, and in 3rd person view, the client knows to follow the seat
[11:41]	Kitto Flora:	But - it does not
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	when you jump into alt-zoom the camera knows to follow the mouse
[11:41]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It does, usually.
[11:41]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Flying would be very difficult if it didn't.
[11:41]	Kitto Flora:	Since the last client release or two, mostly it does not
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Right Kitto, dunno what is up with that bug.
[11:41]	Feynt Mistral:	Only if you're sitting on a non-linked object does the client know how to move with the prim you're sitting on.
[11:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	And the camera is totally out of anyone's control. 3 years ago we have a whole "Leave My Camera Alone!" movement here, to which LL responded with the two "No auto camera movement" buttons in Prefs ... but the camera STILL moves </sigh>
[11:42]	Feynt Mistral:	If you sit on something like a 2 prim chair, and you sit on a child prim instead of the root, and move the child prim, you do not move either.
[11:42]	Feynt Mistral:	Haven't ever.
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	the way flying works... the client tells the server what direction is forward and the server trys as hard as it can to point in that direction
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	which is why any external force that would rotate the avatar is nullified
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	If you are sitting, you're linked to the root prim
[11:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	We even had t-shirts made with "Leave My Camera Alone!" on them ;-))))
[11:42]	Feynt Mistral nods.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	what needs to happen is the server needs to be able to tell the client about any external motion being imposed on the avatar from some external force, and then the client would have to either honor that hint, or ignore it
[11:43]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Right.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	in other words, in order for exernal rotation forces to affect the SL avatar a NEW feedback/communication channel needs to be created
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	it can be done, but it is a bigger project than just fixing some server-side thing
[11:44]	Feynt Mistral agrees.
[11:44]	Arawn Spitteler found someting with llSetLinkPrimitiveParams, completely different from svc-2931 : It seems to be a bit busy, to ask about the vaguaries of rotation, but I find I have to devide by root rotaion twice, to set a thing on a global rotation.
[11:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that's where OGP comes in I would think
[11:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	new communications channels
[11:45]	Feynt Mistral:	I think though that some serious thought should be put into that. I mean, yes, SL isn't a game, but a lot of its interaction could be modeled as such.
[11:45]	Kitto Flora:	The server knows which direction the avatar is facing... But the server has no way to tell the avatar which way to face? (If avatar is standing)
[11:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	SL isnt' a game, but it (or a compatible)should be able to support any game-like behavior
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Arwan, that sounds like a known bug... one that Seifert Surface has correctly analyzed.
[11:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I assumed it would be mostly client side. It just seems, it already does it perfectly well (for the most part) when it's keeping up with rotation of the object you're sitting on. Why it would be any more difficult when the object in question is the avatar itself rather than an ob jec the avatar is sitting on -- it seems like exactly the same problem to me, just a different in-world object being tracked. And it's one that's already solved in the object-being-sat-on case.
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	There is a rotation bug in the script engine for local-->global transformations
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	unfortunately much content has already been written to work around it
[11:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sai: I'm not sure Andrew meant it in quite that way, channels. In REST terms, it would be just another REST resource that we talk to, not another comms channel.
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	so we'll probably have to add a new LSL method that does the right thing
[11:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	It wouyld break content, to fix in LSL, so C#?
[11:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	well, some data may be better "served" via something other than HTTP or UDP
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	Has Jira got a C# Wish List, or should I Jira for one?
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, not another chat channel, but a new message/REST/packet/mode-of-communication between server and clietn
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	a change to the protocol
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	Would Open Grid need a new viewer design?
[11:47]	Feynt Mistral points out that Torque supports over 100 people in a game server, so there are plenty of options out there networking wise for efficient massive modeling of character positions in real time.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, no need to jirafy C# wish, I think Babbage Linden wants to work on that project already.
[11:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that's one of the things I'm hoping Infinity will start addressing when she gets a group IM channel and discovery service set up
[11:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	how to establish arbitrary NEW forms of com between client and AD client and client client and sim
[11:48]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oh, speaking of JIRA, I've reoppened an old issue: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-766
[11:49]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Was something that was fixed during the Havok4 beta, but then other things changed (upping the physics limit to 4096)
[11:49]	Andrew Linden waits for pjira to come up
[11:49]	Feynt Mistral:	Looks like the JIRA is acting up.
[11:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Pure black page here
[11:49]	Feynt Mistral:	I can't even get the main page.
[11:50]	Sheet Spotter:	Someone in another group IM just reported the JIRA is not working correctly.
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	Another interesting oddity: I found a spot where if one rezzes a cube to the south of the Av one cannot sit on it(no suitable place message) But if you rez a cube to the north, one can sit on the cube just fine.
[11:50]	Feynt Mistral:	Someone throw the grid monkey a banana.
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Ah ok, sounds like the jira site is down at the moment.
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	kitto, that happens when the cube u rezzed is inside a megaprim
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	Its directional sensitive?
[11:51]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ah, the JIRA I mentioned is about VEHICLE_HOVER_HEIGHT. Used to be limited to 100m, was upped to 1024, but then the physics simulation was upped to 4096. The HOVER_HEIGHT was never updated for this change I think. Or if it was, it didn't take...
[11:52]	Feynt Mistral:	Ah, JIRA's back.
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, are there other objects about when this avatar-sit fails?
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	Yes
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	I was the last person to change (break) the sitting avatar code, so I'm a likely candidate for fixing it
[11:52]	Feynt Mistral shamelessly plugs his entry: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2945
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	Its inside a hollow cut tube, I tried external repro, but could not get same effect
[11:53]	Kitto Flora:	There are also phantom sculpties around
[11:53]	Gaius Goodliffe:	(Mine's easier to fix. :p)
[11:53]	Feynt Mistral:	(Mine's about which language for Mono to support next, so it's just a vote)
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, sounds like an oversight Gaius, shouldn't be too hard to fix
[11:53]	Gaius Goodliffe:	(voting...)
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sopunds like a tough repro, and a sim restart could eliminate an invisible ghost megaprim
[11:54]	Patnad Babii:	i would like to point to this bug, witch had alot of vote already: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1776
[11:54]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Wait, there's no FORTRAN option?
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, the new avatar-sit code uses a lot of ray traces to try to find a valid place to sit
[11:54]	Gaius Goodliffe ducks.
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Yes Andrew
[11:54]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oh wait, I see it. it's just called "Python"... ;)
[11:54]	Feynt Mistral:	Har har
[11:55]	Feynt Mistral:	Mono doesn't support Fortran, that I've seen anyways.
[11:55]	Feynt Mistral:	Python's currently the popular language.
[11:55]	Rex Cronon:	it supports java
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	I think it might still do a test-sit and fail if a proxy shape penetrates any other object where the ray-traces suggested would be the best place to sit.
[11:55]	Feynt Mistral:	I'd think it'd be a popular one with LL too since SL's development uses Python to some extent. >)
[11:55]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I've just started using Google's App engine. My initial experiences with Python were negative, but I'm starting to warm to it...
[11:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	iron python with mono
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	Python has more of a following here in LL. It is our main glue language these days.
[11:56]	Feynt Mistral nods
[11:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	need a pretty printer eidtor or its worthless. WITH such an editor its quite nice
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	However, there are some good arguments for supporting a C# interface to LSL
[11:56]	Jims Smythe:	The wiki is having a problem it seems
[11:56]	Feynt Mistral is using Python in his particle engine to allow dynamic changing of equations for particle flow.
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	in particular getting some client-side .NET scripting functionality
[11:56]	Saijanai Kuhn is implementing a client in python (pyogp)
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Babbage Linden has plans in that regard. I think he still holds office hours
[11:57]	Feynt Mistral points Saijanai to Panda3D
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	you might try to track him down
[11:57]	Feynt Mistral:	Unfortunately I'll be at work at that time.
[11:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Enus just finished taking ZCA out of pyogp, btw. Now works without the component overhead
[11:58]	Feynt Mistral:	Babbage knows I want Python though. I bugged him a few times about it during Mono's beta period. >D
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Babbage at 8AM, Wednesday, I recall.
[11:58]	Feynt Mistral:	Yes, but I leave for work at 11am EST
[11:58]	Feynt Mistral:	So exactly when his office hours start.
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	If we ever add new language interfaces to SL scripting then I'm sure python will get in there.
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, script a bot to ask questions for you.
[11:58]	Feynt Mistral:	I'd have enough time to say, "Implement Python!" and then log off. >P
[11:58]	Saijanai Kuhn:	INfinity hosting for Zero today at 1PM SLT. Topics may include group IM, new communications channels and service discovery in OGP
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	If not Babbage then someone will do it.
[11:58]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I'd be most interested in seeing C#, but Python would be cool, now that it seems I'm going to be using it a lot more in the future anyhow.
[11:59]	Saijanai Kuhn:	need a better built-in editor to do python though
[11:59]	Feynt Mistral:	The only disappointing part is that Babbage said the languages won't support things like sockets.
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	This office hour is almost over.
[11:59]	Feynt Mistral:	That was a serious bummer.
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Anybody have any last minute questions they were holding on to?
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	We now compile on Server, and very slowly.
[11:59]	Hermit Barber:	Python
[12:00]	Sheet Spotter:	One silly one...Are out-of-order chat messages a sign of dropped UDP packets?
[12:00]	Feynt Mistral:	No last minute questions that wouldn't make me seem like a jerk for repeating myself. >)
[12:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Andrew, if you could "redesign from scratch" would you do things differently?
[12:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nice one Sheet ... we'll be repeating that Q several times today I think ;-)
[12:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Out of order chat messages are a sign of temporal anomalies. ;)
[12:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	local chat vs group IM though
[12:01]	Gaius Goodliffe watches too much Star Trek.
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... yes I think chat order problems could be related to dropped packets
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'd like to hear Andrew's view on Sheet's Q
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	I sure would do some things differently - the messageing protocol and use of XML for one thing
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	some of the packets will resend, I'll bet that chat packetd do
[12:01]	Feynt Mistral:	Would SL be based off of an established engine?
[12:01]	Saijanai Kuhn:	well, something to keep in mind. Infinity wants to offer non http/non-udp messaging protocols in OGP
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	that is resend if no ACK is received
[12:02]	Sheet Spotter:	Thank you for this hour, Andrew...Always informative.
[12:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sai: protocols, or framing?
[12:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	notsure the diff at this levl, Morgaine
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	Using other engines is a tough question ... they seem to solve a lot of problems, but often have details that cause trouble. In Havok, for example, the way we pin rotation about an axis is an ugly hack with bad side effects
[12:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	she was talking about real time TCP protocols
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	Alright, I've got to run. I've got a lot of work to do.
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	... all because the Havok engine doesn't support that option
[12:03]	Feynt Mistral:	Night, Andrew.
[12:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Good luck!
[12:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Andrew, good hour
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	I have to run too .. thanks everyone
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	thanks for coming
[12:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	thanks Andrew and Simon
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[12:03]	Feynt Mistral:	Night, Simon.
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye all
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	Lunchtime!
[12:03]	Feynt Mistral:	Night everyone, I'm heading back to Serenity Woods. >)
[12:04]	Sheet Spotter:	Have a great one everyone!