User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 12 09

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:02]	Kitto Flora:	Have you ever looked much at the region border crossing process?
[11:02]	Kitto Flora:	Particularly - what triggers transfer to the next sim?
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	I have a bit ... it's pretty much position that does it
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, you're wondering _when_ exactly somthing moves to a neighboring region? Avatar or object?
[11:03]	Kitto Flora:	Object
[11:03]	Kitto Flora:	And yes, position
[11:03]	Kitto Flora:	But if you move a object from region a into region B by say 0.1 M
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	It's also the object's position as you'd see when editing it -- it doesn't take in account the actual shape
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	And ask its location it says its still in A at say < 20, -0.1, 22>
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Object moves to next sim as when its root's geometric center moves into the neighbor AND when the object is no longer selected.
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	That is - its over the border but not transfered
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	Right, it won't do the transfer if it's selected
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	Actually - no
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	I have ascript moving it
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	Its not seletected
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Upon script movement it should transfer, although it might take a few frames... maybe.
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	It does not transfer until it gets to around 1.0M into the next sim
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	Nope - it will sit there for a long time
[11:06]	RawMilk905 Kline:	this is office hours?
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right... I forgot
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	Hi - yes, it is
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	Hi Rex
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	Hi Everyone
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	hiii
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	the object only transfers when it is more than a meter over the line... if it is in the ACTIVE list
[11:06]	RawMilk905 Kline:	not quite the turnout
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	as soon as it goes PASSIVE it will be moved to the neighboring region
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	Maybe I should serve snacks
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	Do you know of anyway to 'force' a transfer, even if it is only 0.1M over the line - a scripted way?
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	the turn out can change very fast sometimes;)
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	objects that are PASSIVE by default (static objects that have no script that must be kept active) will transfer as soon as they are over the line
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	Hum
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	Thats self-defeating :)
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, the main reason for the hysteresis is to NOT stream the object if it happens to be oscillating across the line
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	Right
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	I can understand that
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	the oscillation must have an amplitude > 2 meters, as it is
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	Trouble is that makes life difficult for those who want to cross the line cleanly
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	explain how it is difficult, and what you mean by "cleanly"
[11:11]	Kitto Flora:	Well - as you know - dynamic objects havea big problem crossing the line under there vehicle motion
[11:11]	Kitto Flora:	Theres big lags and jitters
[11:11]	Kitto Flora:	What I am trying is stopping a dynamic object on one iside of the line
[11:11]	Kitto Flora:	at say 0.01M
[11:11]	Kitto Flora:	Set it non-dynamic
[11:12]	Kitto Flora:	do llSetPos() move of 0.02M across the line
[11:12]	Kitto Flora:	(hoping that whould do the transfer
[11:12]	Kitto Flora:	Then starting up again
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	ok, so try stopping it at 0.9 and moving it to 1.1
[11:12]	Kitto Flora:	Yep
[11:12]	Kitto Flora:	Buut its a huge jump
[11:12]	Kitto Flora:	Looks really fake
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	stop at 0.99 and move it to 1.01
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	Actually you need stop at 0.01, and jump 1.01
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	Better 1.1
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	it appears that the transfer is triggered at around 1.0M into the next sim
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, the magic numbers may be velocity dependent
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	also, the whole thing can lag with the script engine
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	Well SetPos() has its own fixed idea of velocity
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	Time to perform the transfer is not so important in this situation
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	as the thing is otherwise static
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	ok well yeah, the transition happens at 1.0 meter beyond the border for a scripted object
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	i NOTICE IF ONE RIGHT-CLICK THE OBJECT (SELECT) AND THEN
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	eeep
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	if you select a simple object and move it to 256.001 and let go... it will transfer as soon as you deselect
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	and then release the object it transfers righ taway, even if 0.01M across the line
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	yup
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	Any way to get the same effect with a script?
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	an active obejct moving by its own power will transfer at 257.0
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	a static object with a "static script" (one that only triggers on external events such as touch or collision) will transfer at 256.001
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	OK
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	but if you add an llListen() or a timer it won't transfer until 257.001
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	I can't manage the static script - theres some 27 scripts in a Steam engine
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, but you should be able to count on transition at the 257 line
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	or the -1.0 line
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	Humm
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	as long as there is a line, and you know what it is... it should be workable
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	Maybe trry to drive to the -0.99 line then hop to to the -1.1 line
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	OK, TY - more testing...
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	right, I thought that was waht I was saying
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	earlier
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... any announcements Simon?
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	You were - I have to figure the action :)
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	I think maybe 1.25 has the green light again
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, the latest rumor is... 1.25 might start to deploy again on Thursday
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	and will it be here on christmas:)
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	yes, I think it will be on time for Christmas
[11:22]	Kitto Flora hopes its over one way or other before the hollidays
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	And the big rush
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	what rush?
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	maybe it should be here at least one week before, or after
[11:23]	Kitto Flora:	Theres more Avs around, more activity on Hollidays
[11:23]	Kitto Flora:	People have time to play
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Really? Yeah ok that makes sense.
[11:23]	Kitto Flora:	Hah! Saturday after thanksgiving is HECTIC
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Thanksgiving was a low attendance day.
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	in case something is still wrong with it, u don't want to break all the shopping:)
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	I sold 9 steam trains that day
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	(30th)
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... there is Black Friday, and Cybe Monday. What will the Second Life big buying day be?
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Maybe someone on the data warehouse and analysis team will query the database for an answer.
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	Sunday after Thansgiving
[11:25]	Rex Cronon:	more likely christmas and one or two days before it
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	The whole weekend was a big sales spike
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, Sunday is typically the most popular day of the week.
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	Was last year too
[11:26]	Squirrel Wood:	You scam a passing noob out of their camping money. Collect $150 :p
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	is not only sales, but there are contests, parties going on
[11:27]	Squirrel Wood:	You have been caught griefing you naughty rascal. Go directly to the cornfield. Do not pass the Telehub. Do Not collect $200.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Well, hopefully server-1.25 will be deployed and before the end of next week.
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, so the plan is... Thursday deploy of 100 or so hosts, let it sit over the weekend, and finish the deploy on Mon and Tuesday
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	Someone apparently crashed Help ISland Public last night with some chat spam gadgets
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	if anything goes wrong (like it has several times in the past) we'll roll back Friday or as soon as we know
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Oh really? Hrm... maybe I'll look up those crashes and see if there is an easy fix.
[11:30]	Kitto Flora:	Could have been something else but thats the last active stuff on the screen for me
[11:30]	Kitto Flora:	before lock up
[11:30]	Kitto Flora:	then disconnected
[11:30]	Kitto Flora:	It a grief device: seems to make objects that are named for nearby Avs
[11:31]	Kitto Flora:	Then the objects each chat massive ammounts on Chan 0
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	Well, this last week I've been gridmonkey (LL dev who carries a pager) and so crashes like this would be something that I'm supposed to look into.
[11:31]	Kitto Flora:	Was around midnight last night
[11:31]	Kitto Flora:	'Help Island Public'
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes I see those crashes on record.
[11:32]	Squirrel Wood:	name changing spam prims are nothing new
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	i have seen that kitto, at SWT(sanbox weapons testing)
[11:32]	Squirrel Wood:	but they are annoying
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	YEah. Old gadget
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	But - not seen crashing a sim
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	usually there r megaprims rezzed also
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	physical type
[11:33]	Kitto Flora:	I didnt see anything else
[11:33]	Kitto Flora:	I was in process of trying to get view transparent on when my actions locked
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	if your draw distance is low u don't see them
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	Thats usually sign one has lost sim comms
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	By the time I got to checking that I got the disconnected message
[11:35]	Rex Cronon:	at swt, this type of greifing is done by somebody name "nightmare dech", actually one of his alts
[11:35]	Kitto Flora:	If I catch the perp, its most often a brand new Av.
[11:35]	Rex Cronon:	seems the original dench was perm banned for griefing and now likes to make alts to get revenge
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	but I see this in OPI and HIP, dont look in other places
[11:36]	Squirrel Wood:	I think LL should run a TOR exit router. Many griefers connect through the tor network...
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	I'll have to google "tor exit router". I know what TOR is.
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	kitto this thing started at swt
[11:37]	Squirrel Wood:	alternatively get a list of exit routers and deny connections from those
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	swt = ?
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	Ban by IP# or range of IP# ?
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	sandbox weapons testing
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	swt
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	Ah ok, thanks.
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not sure that there would be support for banning TOR outright, but there should be ways to reduce the damage, or to pay more attention to connections from TOR
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	I'll ask around in the operations crew to see what they think
[11:39]	Simon Linden:	It would be interesting to find out how many connections come in via TOR
[11:39]	RawMilk905 Kline:	TOR?
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Right, and which accounts use it, and how "useful" those accounts are to the system.
[11:40]	Simon Linden:	www.torproject.org
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Are they only griefers? Or are others using it?
[11:40]	Simon Linden:	It's a proxy server system that masks your real IP address
[11:40]	Rex Cronon:	i hear there r some moded viewers that allow people to do "interesting" things
[11:40]	Simon Linden:	What's 'interesting' ?
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	right, an IP address anomynizer
[11:41]	Rex Cronon:	delete objects belong to others
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	yes, give some examples of "interesting"
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	That should not be possible. I'm not sure I believe it
[11:41]	Simon Linden:	Well, they can send various messages up to the simulator/region, but those should all be error-checked
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	but there could be a bug
[11:42]	Simon Linden:	You can get your own viewer into an odd state sometime where it won't see what everyone else does
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	and i think u can tell who selects what object
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	that would very neat to have in the main viewer too:)
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Who is selecting what is already sent to the regular client
[11:43]	Rex Cronon:	especially for moving vehicles
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	however, it may not display the info if the relevant avatar or object is not in view
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	I have lost Railcars recently - not returned. Not gone off world. Just vanished
[11:43]	Rex Cronon:	it is? but what good is that if i can't see it?
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	well, suppose somone was in the far corner of this region building something
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	I think the selection info may be sent down, regardless of whether the avatar is in your view
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	but why would you want to see that info under normal circumstances?
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Ideally the simulator would only send that info if you "needed" it
[11:45]	Rex Cronon:	if u have a car race, somebody can break it, by selecting the cars at random:(
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	Thats the old edit/select problem
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	The dilemma
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	right, ok so objects nearby are selected
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	or pehaps the SL client should be able to "subscribe" to the level of info that it is interested in
[11:47]	Rex Cronon:	no, i can be in middle of the sim and select anything on the ground
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	ALL selections, or only selections within 100 meters, or something like that
[11:47]	Rex Cronon:	i can select further than 100m
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	What about selection? Is Rex's intent to prevent selection so that fair races are possible in SL?
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	at least it seems so
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	yes kitto
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	I'm just brainstorming on how the system could probably work better
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	I think that the selection info is currently transmitted no matter where you are in the region
[11:49]	Squirrel Wood:	check if the selecting one is the owner or sim owner or EM and only allow selection in such cases?
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	and so an "interesting" modification to the SL viewer might be to show these selections in some sort of log/event window
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	Well for races, a fair method of preventing 3rd-party edit/select would be good. But it also has to not assist griefing
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I'm not designing the selection restriction features right now.
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	If I had nothing important to do I might take a swing at that one.
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	could the select object shout: John Doe has selected me
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	One can already *see* what is selected by someone.
[11:50]	Squirrel Wood:	selection restricting would be immediately abused by griefers
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	with the right debug settings
[11:50]	Squirrel Wood:	no shouting :p
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	but not who is selecting
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	on the debub channel
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Not that it isn't important, but my plate is pretty full and that one sounds like a lot of work... mostly design work and fighting the QA/deploy system to justify something that is going to break some content.
[11:51]	Squirrel Wood:	Best to eat up then so your plate becomes less full :)
[11:51]	Rex Cronon:	just a simple way to let whoever rides the vehichle who has selectedc?
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	I do think we need some selection restrictions
[11:52]	Squirrel Wood:	a DetectSelector() function in LSL ?
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	Rex, what good does it do to know who seleted the vehicle?
[11:52]	Rex Cronon:	i can go to them and ask nicely to stop doing that:)
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	By then its too late
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	Damage done
[11:52]	Squirrel Wood:	You can still scream at them :p
[11:52]	Rex Cronon:	at least u know who is doing it
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	no not too late. Peoples' behaviors change when they can do them anonymously
[11:53]	Rex Cronon:	right andrew
[11:53]	Kitto Flora:	What I suspect is that race contestants pull in an Alt or some friend - to select a few competitors and slow them down
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	You know... if someone else were to design the selection restrictions, and promise to push them through the LL QA/deploy system then I'd be happy to actually implement them.
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Yeah - the *real* problem is coming up woth the political solution :)
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	We have this little committee in LL called the "House of Reason" who's job is to consider proposals that might need extra scrutiny
[11:55]	Rex Cronon:	i seem to have network problems
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	Do the members of the House Of REason actually have building experience in SL?
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not interested in submitting a HoR proposal, but I could do the work once it had passed through
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	yes, I think some of them do
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	the committee gets new blood every 6 months or so, and spans the company
[11:56]	Squirrel Wood:	Oy
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	Mmm - but its all Lindens
[11:57]	Squirrel Wood:	blood transfusions ?
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	And Lindens rarely seem to know *how* to use SL
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Yes it is an LL committee
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Really Kitto? I'm not your only data point am I?
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	No
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	But one of the major
[11:58]	Simon Linden:	I'd agree to that somewhat ... there's a wide range of in-world experience within the company
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	Over the years - its very apparent that Lindens dont actually do much building research in SL
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	Look at Linden Content. Pretty. But technically inept.
[11:59]	Rex Cronon:	i think that being able to know who selected an vehicle would be beneficial to a lot of people
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, should selection restrictions be vehicle-only?
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	vehicle + sitting avatar only?
[11:59]	Rex Cronon:	yes, vehicle + sitting
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	should vehicles be special cases of selection restrictions?
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	I'd agree - vehicle+Sitting is the critical one
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Its a race, or vehicle being used situation
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	ok. there r casses when somebody wants to drive over u, and is usefull to stop them
[12:00]	Squirrel Wood:	basically selecting should be possible but should not restrict the object in its movement
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	What if the selection distance (from selector avatar) had to be relatively small in order for selection to work?
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	say... 20 meters or so
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	No point in that
[12:01]	Squirrel Wood:	people would scream for longer select distances
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	Racing sail boats are close together
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	what about griefer who attacks with unselectable vehicle?
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	Well if a vehicle with NO sitter is selectable, then anyone can edit/trap the griefing vehicle
[12:02]	Squirrel Wood:	griefer can only sit on one vehicle
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	Hown amny griefing vehicles are being ridden by an Av?
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	many
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	ok so being able to see the griefer on the vehicle is enough?
[12:02]	Squirrel Wood:	if you can pull the profile
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	what about a vehicle that encloses the griefer and moves quickly?
[12:03]	Squirrel Wood:	then again, returning the vehicle must be possible too
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	it can be hard to see who it is
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	andrew u ever seen a frocefield in action?
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	The thing is - grifer vehicles are rezzed in the tens - hundreds perhaps. They cant get an av to ride every one
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	yes perhaps Rex. There are several types, aren't there?
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	So in practice, grifer vehicles are always unmanned
[12:04]	Rex Cronon:	yes, and they can stop a moving car quite easily:)
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Oh I see, so forcefields are workarounds for griefers riding vehicles.
[12:04]	Rex Cronon:	yes:)
[12:05]	Andrew Linden:	ok... suppose you had to be within only a few meters of the vehicle in order to select it, even with sitting avatar?
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	would that not be enough because of the sailboat case?
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	Right
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	I dont think one can discriminate by distance
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	well, restricting selection on a vehicle with sitting avatar would't be too hard to do... technically
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	the code is easy, that is
[12:07]	Kitto Flora:	Maybe allow selection of dynamic+sitter by Parcel Owner only
[12:07]	Kitto Flora:	Or someone with 'return' rights
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	what about regular seats that don't have a vehicle action?
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	such as... only using hover or buoyancy?
[12:08]	Squirrel Wood:	I would suggest that selecting a physical object does not stop it dead in its tracks if its not your own
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, I suspect parcel owners will want the ability to select
[12:08]	Rex Cronon:	i agree with squirrel
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	when over their parcel
[12:08]	Squirrel Wood:	sim owners, estate managers and parcel owners most likely
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	any physical object Squirrel?
[12:09]	Squirrel Wood:	any physical vehicle I would say
[12:09]	Rex Cronon:	is very unlikely that u can select a moving bullet:)
[12:09]	Andrew Linden:	I'm sure such a restriction would break a significant amount of content
[12:09]	Kitto Flora:	I disagree with Squirrel - stopping the object is useful when it is a griefing object (flying boulder) .
[12:10]	Kitto Flora:	Flying boulders are dynamic - not necessarily vehicles
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	ok, but lets make the distinction... there are vehicles that use the script vehicle feature
[12:10]	Rex Cronon:	the problem is, how 2 determine if selection is used to grief
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	but there are also objects that serve as vehicles but move using other modes
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	that is you sit on them, and they move using other script features
[12:11]	Andrew Linden:	would those count in this hypothetical restriction?
[12:11]	Rex Cronon:	selection doesn't stop objects that r ot physical
[12:11]	Squirrel Wood:	If it is physical and an avatar is part of the linkset, don't stop dead when selected. otherwise behave as usual
[12:11]	Kitto Flora:	Well - whats the real problem case of mis-use of Select? Its in races? Are there race 'vehicles' that DO NOT use vehicle code?
[12:12]	Rex Cronon:	problems is it stop vehicle, while allowing annonimity
[12:12]	Andrew Linden:	but allowed selectors might be: sitter, owner, and parcel_owner
[12:12]	Andrew Linden:	what about group member of group-owned vehicle?
[12:12]	Rex Cronon:	if selection wasn't anonymous, than it wouldn't be a problem
[12:12]	Andrew Linden:	group member of group owned land?
[12:13]	Kitto Flora:	I kinda doubt that any race vehicles are group owned
[12:13]	Andrew Linden:	this isn't just about race vehicles
[12:13]	Andrew Linden:	what is going to happen if we were to make it a feature is that someone will enter it as a bug
[12:14]	Andrew Linden:	"I can't edit this object when I select it"
[12:14]	Rex Cronon:	i had no idea that it is so hard for a vehicle that is selected to shout on debug channel the name of who selected it:(
[12:14]	Andrew Linden:	in some corner case where it kicks in
[12:14]	Rex Cronon:	this way nothing is broken
[12:15]	Andrew Linden:	would that be sufficient Rex?
[12:15]	Rex Cronon:	yes
[12:15]	Andrew Linden:	for your needs. Kitto?
[12:15]	Kitto Flora:	Rex: Here's the (likely) problem: Adding a LSL function to return the identity of a 'selector' is a lot of work. Changeing the rules (logic) for who can select an object is less work.
[12:16]	Kitto Flora:	Adding a switch to make an object yell who selected it - probably a lot of work
[12:16]	Rex Cronon:	i don't need a new lsl function
[12:16]	Andrew Linden:	not too hard to shout on a debug channel on selection
[12:16]	Rex Cronon:	ok, than this is not going to change
[12:16]	Kitto Flora reads what adrew asked...
[12:17]	Andrew Linden:	there is already code for shouting on a channel, so not too hard to call it in a new spot
[12:17]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, are you asking 'is it sufficinet that the object yells who selected it' ?
[12:17]	Andrew Linden:	a new LSL function... not going to do that. I'm not adding any LSL functions until the Mono team starts adding their own.
[12:18]	Rex Cronon:	the only changes would need to be made to viewer, so when it receives a packet that say this object was selected, will say it on debug
[12:18]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Kitto. is it sufficient for your needs.
[12:18]	Andrew Linden:	for sailing, for example
[12:18]	Kitto Flora:	HI'd agree that it would go a long way to appeasing the situation.
[12:18]	Andrew Linden:	selection restrictions would nip most of the problem in the bud
[12:18]	Kitto Flora:	Like Rex says - perp. is no longer anonymous
[12:19]	Andrew Linden:	no need for extra script code for fingering the selector
[12:19]	Kitto Flora:	Would an object then always say who selected it?
[12:19]	Rex Cronon:	until everytbody agrees what the selection function shoul or shouldn't do, this should make things little easier for races
[12:20]	Andrew Linden:	Alright, well this was an interesting discussion.
[12:20]	Squirrel Wood:	pop up a particle that says "Hi! I has selected ur vehicle!" ?
[12:20]	Andrew Linden:	I'll make a note to ask some others to see what they think.
[12:20]	Andrew Linden:	I should probably head out now and get some food.
[12:20]	Rex Cronon:	maybe it should apply only to moving physical things
[12:20]	Kitto Flora:	If it were limited to vehicle+rider objects only - thats ok
[12:21]	Squirrel Wood:	food sounds like a very good idea!
[12:21]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[12:21]	Kitto Flora:	Lunchtime
[12:21]	Andrew Linden:	thanks for coming
[12:21]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[12:21]	Simon Linden:	Thanks all for coming ... see you next time
[12:21]	Squirrel Wood:	thanks for having us ^^
[12:21]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye all
[12:21]	Rex Cronon:	have fun:)
[12:21]	Squirrel Wood:	have a grrrrrrreat day