User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 01 13
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Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:
[11:01] | Helena Lycia: | Hiya |
[11:01] | Arawn Spitteler: | Hiya'll |
[11:02] | Kitto Flora: | Hello hello hello |
[11:02] | Andrew Linden: | Hello |
[11:02] | Latif Khalifa: | hey :) |
[11:02] | Arawn Spitteler wonders if he spelled that correctly. | |
[11:02] | Arawn Spitteler: | Hey, Rex, ever hear of Sihkism? |
[11:03] | Rex Cronon: | hi arawn, no i haven't |
[11:03] | Rex Cronon: | hi everybody |
[11:03] | Andrew Linden: | Alright, lessee if I have any announcements... |
[11:03] | Rex Cronon: | hmm |
[11:03] | Andrew Linden: | I should have read that release update email before this meeting... |
[11:03] | Arawn Spitteler: | They wear turbines, because they don't cut their hair. I notice, your turbine eventually rezzes a witches cap shape. |
[11:03] | Rex Cronon: | lol |
[11:04] | Simon Linden: | Gotta wait for everyone to rez BEFORE sitting :) |
[11:04] | Arawn Spitteler whispers: We can Whisper, now, but I don't think it has a keystroke. | |
[11:04] | Rex Cronon: | right simo:) |
[11:05] | Andrew Linden: | Ok so it looks like, barring any emergencies discovered in the final QA pass... |
[11:05] | Andrew Linden: | another server-1.25 attempt will happen this week |
[11:05] | Helena Lycia: | Uh oh! |
[11:05] | Arawn Spitteler wonders if QA has time to dscover much | |
[11:06] | Kitto Flora: | Rolling rolling rolling... |
[11:06] | Latif Khalifa: | when are the backend servers going to be updated to 1.25? |
[11:06] | Andrew Linden: | first pilot regions update on 15th, but there are some internal updates happening on the 14th |
[11:06] | Andrew Linden: | so some backend servers updated on the 14th Latif |
[11:06] | Latif Khalifa: | so tomorrow we see if "missing name" is fixed :) |
[11:06] | Arawn Spitteler wonders if 1.25 will be out before 1.26 | |
[11:06] | Andrew Linden: | those are target dates |
[11:07] | Rex Cronon: | lol. arawn, u mean turbans? |
[11:07] | Andrew Linden: | Heh, I thought he was talking about jet turbins |
[11:07] | Arawn Spitteler: | Yeah, your witch's Cap looks like a turban, until rezzed. |
[11:08] | Arawn Spitteler: | Something that goes round and round. |
[11:08] | Rex Cronon: | that is what i thougth at frist too:) |
[11:08] | Helena Lycia: | I think it would be cool if Sikhs wore turnibes IRL |
[11:08] | Arawn Spitteler'd rather not stick his head into a jet turbine, but hates haircuts in general. | |
[11:08] | Andrew Linden: | Kitto, I did a little bit of work on your missing train cars problem |
[11:08] | Rex Cronon: | lol |
[11:08] | Kitto Flora: | Ah And ? |
[11:09] | Andrew Linden: | I don't quite know what exactly is happening, but I've narrowed it down to either: |
[11:09] | Andrew Linden: | the simulator thinks it is too far underground |
[11:11] | Andrew Linden: | hrm... on second thought |
[11:11] | Andrew Linden: | I'm not sure what the other possibility is. The code right around that spot has changed in the branch I was looking at (maint-server-6) |
[11:12] | Arawn Spitteler: | I've seen Volume Detect fall off world, when physical. |
[11:12] | Andrew Linden: | I'm going to have to look more carefully in the server-1.24 stuff |
[11:12] | Kitto Flora: | OK |
[11:12] | Andrew Linden: | however, I couldn't find any logs about your lost objects |
[11:12] | Andrew Linden: | so whatever path it is falling into is not logged |
[11:12] | Kitto Flora: | OH :( |
[11:13] | Kitto Flora: | Nether sim? |
[11:13] | Kitto Flora: | Neither? |
[11:13] | Andrew Linden: | yes, neither sim |
[11:13] | Andrew Linden: | kitto, you get a return message |
[11:13] | Arawn Spitteler imagines a pile of Kitto Rail Cars, and laundered socks. | |
[11:13] | Andrew Linden: | and when that happens you do get something returned to your Lost and Found |
[11:13] | Kitto Flora: | No message from the car at all |
[11:13] | Andrew Linden: | however there is another item that is silently missing? |
[11:13] | Kitto Flora: | Never arrives in L&F |
[11:13] | Kitto Flora: | Its 'silent' |
[11:14] | Kitto Flora: | Another item... |
[11:14] | Kitto Flora: | I am suspect that the boat may go silently missing |
[11:14] | Arawn Spitteler: | Sounds like it's going somewhere, that's nowhere. Being received by a non-existence, there's no record of it's dissappearence. |
[11:14] | Kitto Flora: | If so thats since it was converted to MONO |
[11:14] | Kitto Flora: | The railcar has been MONO all along |
[11:14] | Andrew Linden: | the silent lost event is always associated with something else that does get returned to inventory kitto? |
[11:15] | Kitto Flora: | No |
[11:15] | Kitto Flora: | Most often when I discover that a railcar has gone mission - usually overnight, then theres nothing in my L&F |
[11:15] | Kitto Flora: | AFAIK nothing else went missing |
[11:16] | Andrew Linden: | Ok, it silently goes missing, no notice. |
[11:16] | Kitto Flora: | Yes |
[11:16] | Kitto Flora: | (and that is the bad thing) |
[11:16] | Andrew Linden: | One of your reports had a "such and such has been returned to you" comment in it |
[11:16] | Kitto Flora: | Which number notecard? |
[11:16] | Andrew Linden: | The one I did the most work on... #4 I think. |
[11:17] | Kitto Flora readis it | |
[11:17] | Andrew Linden: | yes, #4 |
[11:17] | Kitto Flora: | Ah yes |
[11:17] | Andrew Linden: | I see, "About the same time..." probably unrelated |
[11:17] | Andrew Linden: | . |
[11:18] | Kitto Flora: | In that instance (only so far) I observed at around the same time that the Boat had 'gone offworld' *BUT* it had correctly been reeturned to L&F |
[11:18] | Andrew Linden: | Ok, I saw a path where something could be silently lost -- if the object had been rezzed via a script + some other logic that I don't remember. |
[11:18] | Kitto Flora: | Well it *may* indicare sever lag in comms with the destination Sim |
[11:18] | Andrew Linden: | Kitto, is this car generated by some rezzer? |
[11:18] | Kitto Flora: | Yes |
[11:19] | Kitto Flora: | Car and boat are generated by a rezzer |
[11:19] | Andrew Linden: | Ok, I'll dig into that theory more later. |
[11:19] | Kitto Flora: | I am using rezzers more and more - infact exclusivly now, for expensive objects |
[11:19] | Andrew Linden: | Ok. |
[11:19] | Kitto Flora: | The rezzer is static - harder to 'loose' |
[11:20] | Helena Lycia: | Eep, I hope it doesn't affect non-physical stuff, There are whole sims built almost entirely with rezzers where I live |
[11:20] | Kitto Flora: | Comare to steam engines - dynamic.. and no-copy - easier to loose |
[11:20] | Andrew Linden: | Other stuff... we're embarking on a little bug fixing project with more devs than usual. |
[11:20] | Andrew Linden: | It started yesterday afternoon... should go for a week or two. |
[11:20] | Kitto Flora: | What ya gonna fix? |
[11:21] | Andrew Linden: | We'll see how that turns out. I'm going to try to fix a few myself, despite all the other things I've got to keep track of. |
[11:21] | Andrew Linden: | I think that is all that was on my agenda. |
[11:21] | Andrew Linden: | The topic of conversation is open. |
[11:22] | Kitto Flora: | What about fixing sim crossing? Is that still on the list? |
[11:22] | Andrew Linden: | Kitto, there are a number of region-crossing bugs. |
[11:22] | Simon Linden: | FWIW I'm going to be focusing on textures for that project |
[11:22] | Simon Linden: | I do have another region-crossing bug to look at as well |
[11:22] | Andrew Linden: | We aren't going to focus on that in this project, but some of those bugs might be tackled. |
[11:22] | Simon Linden: | ... it sounds similar to yours, Kitto |
[11:23] | Andrew Linden: | I'm starting off by letting the various LL dev's pick their own bugs from the pile. |
[11:23] | Andrew Linden: | They are able to sort by priority, category, and some other things. |
[11:23] | Kitto Flora: | The *BIG* problem with region crossing is actually the lag. Its not really a bug, just really poor performance |
[11:24] | Latif Khalifa: | I have a question about your ability to look into running script state. I have a very hard to reproduce problem where script would "forget" it has PERMISSION_DEBIT. I did not file JIRA because it happens so rarely and without any apparent cause. I was wondering if you guys are able to tell something from a running sim state? |
[11:24] | Andrew Linden: | Latif, I think our tools there are not very good. |
[11:24] | Arawn Spitteler: | The loss of vehicle status is a bug, that shuld be fixed, but Region Crossings in general were always thought to be the perpetual motion device of SL |
[11:24] | Helena Lycia: | Is anyone considering using predictive handover... accessing an AV's tragectory to start sending info to the next sim earlier? |
[11:25] | Andrew Linden: | We don't have much insight into the current state of a script during any particular runtime moment. |
[11:25] | Andrew Linden: | There is some analysis that can be done on a crash (core-dump). |
[11:25] | Kitto Flora: | 'Insight' - the name of the graphical version of gdb? |
[11:25] | Andrew Linden: | Helena, I've considered the predictive handover, yes. |
[11:25] | Latif Khalifa: | my script isn't doing anything realy, waiting for money()... just that permission flags seem to reset randomly and very infrequently. |
[11:26] | Andrew Linden: | But have not yet tackled it. |
[11:26] | Arawn Spitteler: | Does Havok use predictive spaces? |
[11:26] | Helena Lycia: | Cool, as long as it's something to be looked at, that's good |
[11:26] | Arawn Spitteler: | I think a timer could check perms, on occassion. |
[11:26] | Andrew Linden: | Havok only uses prediction in its integration step |
[11:26] | Arawn Spitteler: | Integration? |
[11:26] | Andrew Linden: | but the "prediction" is that it steps forward and checks to see if something bad happened |
[11:27] | Andrew Linden: | it then tries to roll partially back in some cases |
[11:27] | Latif Khalifa: | Arawan, yes but what to do when I detect missing PERMISSION_DEBIT, cannot request it again if I am offline for days |
[11:27] | Arawn Spitteler: | Ah, I'd use a predictive volume, to see if any collisions are immanent, or if the object could be smoothed on viewer side. |
[11:27] | Andrew Linden: | in this case "integration" means computing the next location (using current position, velocity, and acceleation) |
[11:28] | Kitto Flora: | Thats an odd problem Latif. I have built a couple of fancy vendors, they run many months, I have never seen them fail to maintain PERMISSION_DEBIT |
[11:28] | Andrew Linden: | PERMISSION_DEBIT is the permission to give money? |
[11:29] | Latif Khalifa: | yes |
[11:29] | Kitto Flora: | Take and give |
[11:29] | Arawn Spitteler: | So, a predictive solid could be extended into the neighboring sim? It's a matter of sims being on the interest lists of neighboring sims. |
[11:29] | Andrew Linden: | Latif, does your script have state changes? |
[11:29] | Latif Khalifa: | no, just give... you can take without |
[11:30] | Kitto Flora: | DEBIT is needed to give change, or pass a cut on to another Av? |
[11:30] | Latif Khalifa: | Andrew, it originally had, I rewrote it to be all on one state now. Seem that frequency of problems is lower, but just the other day I had several panels fail for me |
[11:30] | Andrew Linden: | Latif, is this new in MONO? |
[11:30] | Latif Khalifa: | Kitto, exactly, my script is simple profit sharing thingie |
[11:30] | Latif Khalifa: | Andrew, nope |
[11:30] | Latif Khalifa: | having problems on and off for a year |
[11:30] | Andrew Linden: | Latif, are your scripts using MONO or the legacy script engine (is that still available for new scripts?) ? |
[11:31] | Multi-vendor 1: | Starting up... |
[11:31] | Latif Khalifa: | Andrew, both... recompiling to mono did not fix the problem that originally started in the legacy LSL executor |
[11:31] | Andrew Linden: | ok hrm... |
[11:32] | Andrew Linden: | Latif, I don't have any theories right now about why that would happen |
[11:32] | Andrew Linden: | and this is the first I've heard of that problem |
[11:32] | Andrew Linden: | If I were working on that problem I'd want to examine the scripts |
[11:32] | Kitto Flora gives Latif a copy of Muti vendor script that works for him | |
[11:33] | Andrew Linden: | is the script simple enough that youd could post a sanitized reproducible example on a public jira? |
[11:33] | Arawn Spitteler: | Alternatively, it could be called a security isue. |
[11:33] | Latif Khalifa: | hm, what's simple? its about 250 lines of code, but most of it is parsing notecard config |
[11:34] | Andrew Linden: | "simple" in that you wouldn't mind others seeing the script, I guess. |
[11:34] | Latif Khalifa: | i don't mind it at all |
[11:34] | Latif Khalifa: | it can be open source |
[11:35] | Kitto Flora: | The one I use is open source. Nothing much special about such scripts |
[11:35] | Andrew Linden: | Ok, that makes it easier. |
[11:35] | Latif Khalifa: | Kitto, mine is really simple script that I put in 1 prim panel that sells objects. It reads notecard with specificatin of % split and then when it recives money() event it passes along the cut to my partners. |
[11:36] | Andrew Linden: | so this is what I would suggest Latif: file a public jira bug about it, paste the script, or a cleaned one that lacks any details you might want private, in the comments |
[11:36] | Andrew Linden: | some others may say they also see the problem |
[11:36] | Andrew Linden: | but that will at least put it on our radar |
[11:36] | Latif Khalifa: | ok i will do that |
[11:37] | Andrew Linden: | You can send me an IM with the jira number when you've filed it |
[11:37] | Kitto Flora: | I have seen two interesting strange things this morning: New to me - maybe interesting, possibly some rare bug: |
[11:37] | Latif Khalifa: | trouble is I have 200 of thesre panels, and failuure rate is 2-3 per quarter |
[11:37] | Andrew Linden: | I might be able to look at it, but no gaurantees |
[11:37] | Latif Khalifa: | sooo rare and difficult to reproduce |
[11:37] | Andrew Linden: | but another LL dev may also be able to look at it |
[11:38] | Arawn Spitteler: | Would there be a log of perm changes? |
[11:38] | Andrew Linden: | it helps to have it entered into the system |
[11:38] | Latif Khalifa: | nope, just request permission_debit on entry |
[11:38] | Kitto Flora: | 1) In the client the Stats Panel Simulator setion remains *empty* until one enables and opens the 'Advanced' debug option in menu |
[11:38] | Andrew Linden: | Arawn, most perm chagnes are not logged |
[11:38] | Andrew Linden: | we can't log everything or we drown in logs |
[11:39] | Arawn Spitteler: | I wonder if objects could carry their own edit logs. |
[11:40] | Kitto Flora: | 2) I visited a private island that had Fly, Rez and Scripts all disabled, BUT when you look in the World/Land/Estate panel settings they are all *enabled* ! |
[11:40] | Arawn Spitteler: | Estate or Parcel? |
[11:40] | Kitto Flora: | The owner reset the sim and then all three became enabled for real. (or for virtual?) |
[11:41] | Kitto Flora: | Both |
[11:41] | Arawn Spitteler: | Ghosted Perms? |
[11:41] | Kitto Flora: | Seems so |
[11:41] | Arawn Spitteler: | Well, we now have a diagnosis for it. |
[11:41] | Andrew Linden: | hrm... kitto that sounds like bug |
[11:42] | Andrew Linden: | the stuff was disabled at the estate/region level, not the parcel ? |
[11:42] | Kitto Flora: | No |
[11:42] | Kitto Flora: | The actual sitauation in the Region was that all three were disabled |
[11:43] | Kitto Flora: | In the top of the client it showed all three as disabled, |
[11:43] | Kitto Flora: | The noob owner was complaining that he could not turn them on |
[11:43] | Kitto Flora: | When I looked in World/Region and /about land... panels |
[11:43] | Kitto Flora: | all three were *enabled* |
[11:44] | Kitto Flora: | So the status panes were at odds with what the regin was really doing |
[11:44] | Kitto Flora: | A region Restart fixed it |
[11:44] | Andrew Linden: | Right. Did the estate owner have a way to reproduce it? |
[11:44] | Kitto Flora: | Not taht I know of Andrew |
[11:44] | Andrew Linden: | Or was it not reproducible when the region restarted. Hrm... ok. |
[11:44] | Kitto Flora: | It was a Open Space sim |
[11:44] | Kitto Flora: | New owner |
[11:45] | Kitto Flora: | (ignorant :) |
[11:45] | Kitto Flora: | And 3 hours ago... |
[11:45] | Andrew Linden: | ok, well I'll wait for that one in jira. I don't have many theories as to how that could happen. |
[11:45] | Kitto Flora: | OK |
[11:46] | Andrew Linden: | that is, surely a bug, but I can't think of where in the code to look first. |
[11:46] | Kitto Flora: | If someone else reports the same thing, it worth looking into |
[11:46] | Andrew Linden: | yup |
[11:46] | Arawn Spitteler: | Maybe flag the restart channel somehow? |
[11:47] | Andrew Linden: | Simon, didn't we pull the "scripts are disabled" check further out of the script engine a while ago? |
[11:47] | Andrew Linden: | such that it was checked *before* the script engine started walking all the scripts? |
[11:47] | Simon Linden: | Hmm, I don't remember that change |
[11:48] | Kitto Flora: | If Simon is going to look at Texture bugs - fixing the one where the last frame of the texture is very slow to arrive would be a good one. Would improve the look of the place a lot |
[11:48] | Andrew Linden: | Ok, my memory on that is fuzzy. I might be misremembering something. |
[11:48] | Latif Khalifa: | btw. new mono compiler server side seems to be very processor have, if i start 10 simultaneous compilations time dilation drops below 0.5 (not that this happens very often) |
[11:48] | Latif Khalifa: | heavy* |
[11:49] | Andrew Linden: | Isn't that part of what you're working on Simon? That last texture frame? |
[11:49] | Simon Linden: | Yes, there's a fix for that in our merge pipeline. The server isn't sending enough data to get the proper detail level of the texture |
[11:49] | Kitto Flora: | Goody! |
[11:49] | Andrew Linden: | Oh really Latif. Hrm... I'll ask babbage about the cost of compiling. |
[11:50] | Kitto Flora: | It is high - in mono |
[11:50] | Kitto Flora: | (My observation) |
[11:50] | KFengine2-5 14.2.0M Black whispers: Reading card, please WAIT.... | |
[11:50] | KFengine2-5 14.2.0M Black whispers: Set to channel 1 | |
[11:50] | KFengine2-1 14.2.0M whispers: No nearby track! | |
[11:50] | KFengine2-1 14.2.0M whispers: Home set | |
[11:50] | KFengine2-1 14.2.0M Black whispers: Read card | |
[11:50] | KFengine2-1 14.2.0M Black whispers: Configured | |
[11:51] | Andrew Linden: | Oh right, one announcement I forgot to mention... I've now got a meeting right after this one on Tuesdays. |
[11:51] | Simon Linden: | That should be a pretty quick blip, however. There would be a bunch of data moved around, but I don't know why it should last more than a second or two |
[11:51] | Andrew Linden: | So I'm going to have to leave at 12:00 noon Pacific |
[11:51] | Kitto Flora: | Lookit dip? |
[11:51] | KFengine2-1 14.2.0M Black whispers: Reading card, please WAIT.... | |
[11:51] | KFengine2-1 14.2.0M Black whispers: Reading card, please WAIT.... | |
[11:51] | KFengine2-1 14.2.0M Black whispers: Reading card, please WAIT.... | |
[11:51] | KFengine2-1 14.2.0M Black whispers: Reading card, please WAIT.... | |
[11:51] | KFengine2-1 14.2.0M Black whispers: Set to channel 1 | |
[11:51] | KFengine2-1 14.2.0M whispers: Reading card, please WAIT.... | |
[11:51] | KFengine2-1 14.2.0M whispers: No nearby track! | |
[11:51] | KFengine2-1 14.2.0M whispers: Home set | |
[11:52] | Kitto Flora kills it | |
[11:52] | Kitto Flora: | Possible new griefer tool? |
[11:53] | Rex Cronon: | spam chat? if you mute owner, is useless:) |
[11:53] | Latif Khalifa: | look at time dilation now |
[11:53] | Kitto Flora: | Something else going on in sim? |
[11:53] | Kitto Flora: | Maybe that test was tainted |
[11:53] | Andrew Linden: | What is loading the simulator? A script compile generator? |
[11:53] | Kitto Flora: | I started a recompile of that steam engine |
[11:53] | Latif Khalifa: | Andew, I recompiled scripts to mone in these 8 objects |
[11:53] | Kitto Flora: | Then killed it |
[11:54] | Kitto Flora: | Ah - more tests :) |
[11:54] | Kitto Flora: | Yeah - this is a way for a griefer to lag a sim |
[11:54] | MLPV2.4d whispers: | MLPV2.4d: READY |
[11:55] | Rex Cronon: | if compiling a script cause so much lag, than things are bad:( |
[11:55] | Latif Khalifa: | about 8 simultanous recompiles brings down time dilation to 0.2 |
[11:56] | Kitto Flora: | Maybe needs better scheduling |
[11:56] | Andrew Linden: | how are you triggering the recompiles? manually or scripted? |
[11:56] | Kitto Flora: | Is script compile integrated with sim, or a separate process? |
[11:56] | Latif Khalifa: | manually |
[11:56] | Latif Khalifa: | one by one though, becauuse if you select more than one object, the client will serialize the request |
[11:57] | Andrew Linden: | Kitto, I'm not sure where the script compile happens now. |
[11:57] | Andrew Linden: | I'll have to ask Babbage Linden. |
[11:57] | Kitto Flora: | If its integrated, needs some kinda scheduler. If its separate, maybe use 'nice' |
[11:57] | Kitto Flora: | YEah. Babbage stuff :) |
[11:57] | Simon Linden: | It happens in the asset upload mechanism ... I ran into that code while working on textures |
[11:58] | Arawn Spitteler: | Compile time s an issue, in Mono, and I've heard requests for a client side Syntax Check |
[11:58] | Andrew Linden: | Simon, does the local sim node do the asset_upload checks? |
[11:58] | Simon Linden: | That's almost all outside the simulator, however, so it may be the compiler is a resource hog |
[11:58] | Simon Linden: | yes |
[11:59] | Andrew Linden: | ok, so the asset_upload needs a queue |
[11:59] | Kitto Flora: | Andrew You should come ride the Big Steam Engine + CArriage on the SLRR tracks across the northern continent. You will see how Sim Boundary crossing problem affects resident experience :) |
[11:59] | Latif Khalifa: | haha |
[11:59] | Andrew Linden: | Yes I should. Not today, but maybe soon. |
[12:00] | Kitto Flora: | 2-vehicle serial crossing, collision avoidence scripting |
[12:00] | Andrew Linden: | I've got to run now. I have another meeting to attend. |
[12:00] | Kitto Flora: | Its reliable. but UGLEEEE :) |
[12:00] | Rex Cronon: | bye andrew |
[12:00] | Kitto Flora: | Lunchtime! |
[12:00] | Latif Khalifa: | thank you for your time Andrew |
[12:00] | Kitto Flora: | Byebye all |
[12:00] | Rex Cronon: | bye everybody |
[12:00] | Simon Linden: | I have to attend the same one ... thanks everyone for coming |
[12:00] | Helena Lycia: | Take care |