User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 02 26

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[16:59]	Sindy Tsure:	hi hi!
[16:59]	Ardy Lay:	Hello
[16:59]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[16:59]	Sindy Tsure:	ooo.. new table?
[16:59]	Ardy Lay:	I doodled on the table. :-)
[16:59]	Sindy Tsure:	scripted? does it move?
[17:00]	Sindy Tsure:	hi opensource
[17:00]	Opensource Obscure:	ciao everybody
[17:00]	Andrew Linden:	we'll see how the doodle works as the table grows
[17:00]	Ardy Lay:	I didn't put my clock scripts in the hands.
[17:00]	Ardy Lay:	It's static
[17:00]	Ardy Lay:	hands
[17:00]	Ardy Lay:	hehe
[17:00]	Opensource Obscure:	heh
[17:00]	Sindy Tsure:	hands!
[17:01]	Andrew Linden:	sheep
[17:01]	Sindy Tsure:	lol
[17:01]	Sindy Tsure detaches the sillyness
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	I'll wait a bit for some others to show up
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	I'll ping Simon to see if he's coming too.
[17:02]	Sindy Tsure:	ok.. i'll reattach the sillyness then :)
[17:02]	Sindy Tsure mutters something about frogs
[17:02]	Sindy Tsure:	wow.. it's nice to be on a fast sim.. ;)
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	sheep!
[17:03]	Sindy Tsure:	heya simon
[17:03]	Sindy Tsure:	and xstorm
[17:03]	Opensource Obscure:	i missed last meeting but i read some pages on the wiki, was it about traffic / bots?
[17:03]	Sindy Tsure:	and shepe
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	Hello everyone
[17:03]	Opensource Obscure:	hi simon
[17:03]	Sindy Tsure:	*sheep
[17:03]	xstorm Radek:	hi hi
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	I don't have anything on my agenda today.
[17:04]	Sindy Tsure:	ghosted scripts!
[17:04]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew i need to know some thing
[17:04]	Sindy Tsure will dig for the jira if need be
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, I need to work on that bug (ghosted scripts).
[17:04]	Sindy Tsure:	is it as scary as it sounds?
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	go ahead xstorm
[17:05]	xstorm Radek:	is there a way i can make prims up tp 20 X 20 ?
[17:05]	Wolfhaven Teleportation HUD v3.0 is Ready
[17:05]	Sindy Tsure:	hi kitto
[17:05]	xstorm Radek:	i wish not to go over that number
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	not under the normal User Interface xstorm
[17:05]	xstorm Radek:	damn :-(
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	You'd have to find some pre-existing megaprims that are the size you want.
[17:06]	xstorm Radek:	thats no good
[17:06]	Sindy Tsure has heard of a HUD that makes finding the right sized existing-megaprim really easy
[17:06]	Sindy Tsure digs
[17:06]	Sindy Tsure:	there are many out there, xstorm.. many..
[17:06]	xstorm Radek:	im rebuilding London to scale model
[17:06]	xstorm Radek:	and whats out there in my own words is crap
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	ok so a vote for larger prim limits
[17:07]	Opensource Obscure:	sindy
[17:07]	Kitto Flora:	Complete with pickle?
[17:07]	Opensource Obscure:	oops
[17:07]	Opensource Obscure:	http://prims.streamgrid.net i think,
[17:07]	Charlette Proto:	hi everyone
[17:07]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[17:07]	xstorm Radek:	but have the limit 20 x 20
[17:07]	xstorm Radek:	no more then that
[17:07]	Sindy Tsure:	ah.. that could be it, opensource.. there's a hud too
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	well, what do I tell the next guy who asks for 30x30 and no more than that? (why 20?)
[17:08]	xstorm Radek:	ok 30 x 30 has to much ghost lines
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	what are "ghost lines"? I'm unfamiliar with that term?
[17:09]	xstorm Radek:	but a 20 x 20 has next to no ghost on the server
[17:09]	Opensource Obscure realizes now we're over a 20x20
[17:09]	xstorm Radek:	right but the server sees the 30 x 30 much bigger then it is
[17:10]	Sindy Tsure:	should try that url opensource mentioned xstorm.. that or check out http://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=712605
[17:10]	xstorm Radek:	but the server sees the 20 x 20 closer to true
[17:10]	Sindy Tsure:	if you havne't already
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	haha - so we're now helping sell megaprim tools :)
[17:10]	Sindy Tsure:	:)
[17:10]	Sindy Tsure:	don't tell andrew
[17:10]	xstorm Radek:	i need to resize the prims and its not working
[17:11]	xstorm Radek:	they snap down to 10 x 10
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	I hadn't heard about any shape mismatch at 30x30... are you talking about boxes or other shapes?
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, you can't resize a megaprim.
[17:11]	Sindy Tsure:	can't resize megaprims.. the sim will clamp them back to 10m
[17:11]	Sindy Tsure:	er.. yeah.. what andrew said
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	The resize operations will enforce the size limits.
[17:11]	xstorm Radek:	if you look at the mini map you can see a 30 x 30 looks bigger then it is
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, on the minimap
[17:12]	Sindy Tsure:	i think we blame philip for that now
[17:12]	xstorm Radek:	but the 20 x 20 is not
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	The minimap is a client-side feature. There may be some bugs there.
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	But I don't think minimap bugs are good arguments for staking a megaprim max size limit.
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	Does the minimap still boxify everything?
[17:13]	Kitto Flora:	Megaprims still await a fix to the encroachment issue?
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Kitto. I would talk more about it but it only causes me pain.
[17:14]	Opensource Obscure:	: )
[17:14]	xstorm Radek:	when your doing scale size to true scale inside SL for some one on 5 sims you need to size the prim to scale
[17:14]	Opensource Obscure:	done with the megaprim topic ?
[17:14]	Opensource Obscure:	is there any update about estate owners being able to enforce / set as default custom 'windlight' settings ?
[17:14]	xstorm Radek:	and more items fall with in the 20 x 20 scale
[17:14]	Sindy Tsure:	when LL let people make megaprims again, last summer?, a TON of new ones were made.. should really check those links if you haven't yet, xstorm
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	Gene Replacement
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	idiot
[17:15]	Sindy Tsure:	gene's are just the old ones.. there are _thousands_ more now
[17:15]	xstorm Radek:	i need size like 11 , 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18
[17:16]	Sindy Tsure points once again to the urls earlier in the chat histor
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know much about enforced windlight settings... except to opine that it would seem like an impossible goal.
[17:16]	Sindy Tsure:	y
[17:16]	Charlette Proto:	but his are in Hobbo boxxes and noob attach them etc
[17:16]	Opensource Obscure:	i made and i can give them to you, xstorm
[17:16]	Opensource Obscure:	oh rly ?
[17:16]	Charlette Proto:	should be no trans/copy
[17:16]	Opensource Obscure:	an impossible goal?
[17:16]	Kitto Flora:	Pelple aske me for megaprim tracks, but there's never one the right shape/size
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, Opensource. It is like saying you want to enforce fonts on a web page.
[17:17]	xstorm Radek:	if there cut down from bigger mega prims i can not use them
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	You can't enforce, but you can recommend strongly.
[17:17]	Charlette Proto:	yep imagine a noob being give a mega after being given stop all animations, what do they do attach
[17:17]	Opensource Obscure:	ok - i mean, owner can set "midnight" right now. right?
[17:17]	xstorm Radek:	the gen replacments are crap
[17:17]	Charlette Proto:	I've seen 65k x 65k prim on a noob running
[17:17]	Ardy Lay:	Me too
[17:17]	Sindy Tsure has had those dropped on her mainland home..
[17:17]	Ardy Lay:	In Rizal
[17:17]	Opensource Obscure:	but they won't never be able to set "Fine Days" or any other windlight presets. right?
[17:17]	Sindy Tsure:	concierge wasn't happy about that
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	yes Opensource, but there is a hotkey combination for overriding nighttime
[17:18]	Charlette Proto:	hi Morgaine
[17:18]	Morgaine Dinova purrs to all
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	Ah Opensource, you're talking about a "recommended windlight settings feature".
[17:18]	Opensource Obscure:	yes. sorry
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	Which, as far as I know, we don't have yet.
[17:18]	Opensource Obscure:	i should use the babbler maybe. >8(
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't heard anything about work on such a feature, but that does not mean it is not in progress.
[17:19]	Sindy Tsure:	oops
[17:19]	Morgaine Dinova shrieks
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	You'll have to ask around some more Lindens.
[17:19]	Opensource Obscure:	i think that could really improve many environments. often texture are meant to be seen with a specific lighting.
[17:19]	Opensource Obscure:	ok. got it.
[17:19]	xstorm Radek:	so has some one made mega prims that are new this year ? that are 20 and lower ?
[17:19]	Charlette Proto:	what a Torley optimal Windlight settings mentioned by Hippo release notes
[17:19]	Sindy Tsure:	hiya folks
[17:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Sindy
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	hi everybody
[17:20]	xstorm Radek:	and if i build with them my name will not be on them thats the other problem
[17:20]	Sindy Tsure:	pick a size, xstorm..
[17:21]	Simon Linden:	hmm, maybe we discoverd an attraction to get more people to office hours -- free megaprims!
[17:21]	Sindy Tsure strong recomments against rezzing these on simon's home, while he's here
[17:21]	xstorm Radek:	i had them huge prims they are bad made from gen replacements
[17:21]	Charlette Proto:	yep giveaway prims
[17:21]	xstorm Radek:	the center is off on them
[17:22]	Sindy Tsure also has free sheep
[17:22]	Charlette Proto:	a lot in there didn't even finish loading
[17:22]	Sindy Tsure shugs.. fine.. nothing can help you i guess, xstorm
[17:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	To go with megaprims, we need megatextures. (yeah yeah, I know, so redefine GL :P)
[17:23]	xstorm Radek:	our group of builder are working for a island sim owner
[17:23]	xstorm Radek:	she owns 5 sims
[17:23]	Sindy Tsure:	hi patty
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	Unfortunately xstorm the features you need don't exist or are contrained.
[17:23]	Rex Cronon:	imagine. mega flexible sculpties:)
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	constrained
[17:23]	Patty Inkpen:	Howdy :-)
[17:23]	Patty Inkpen:	******HOWDY
[17:23]	xstorm Radek:	i have to build with items with my name on them
[17:23]	xstorm Radek:	hi love
[17:24]	xstorm Radek:	come sit dear
[17:24]	Simon Linden:	Helo Patty
[17:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Rex: many thanks for the image of sim-sized flexie sculpties .... we know exactly what they would be :-(
[17:24]	Rex Cronon:	lol. u have such an imagination:)
[17:25]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew is there a way that some one can put my name on the prims i use to build ?
[17:25]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, will it be border crossings or lost inventory?
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, no that is not possible I'm afraid
[17:25]	xstorm Radek:	if not then the prim owner gets all the credet for all my work
[17:26]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. are megaprims copybot-proof?
[17:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	The Imprudence viewer has already merged Qarl's flexie sculptie patch --- they say the resolution is poor, but still useful.
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, I dunno which project will be worked on first. Lost inventory won the office hour poll, and was ranked higher on the internal list I saw.
[17:26]	xstorm Radek:	then the sim owner or others can say i did not do any of the work
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	I think maybe there are some fixes for some lost inventory sitting in some branch. That was what someone was saying in that meeting.
[17:27]	Charlette Proto:	inventory is a priority I think
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	Probably slated for server-1.27, but I'm not sure.
[17:27]	Sindy Tsure:	lost inventory is just SOOO painful :(
[17:27]	Charlette Proto:	and it is happening a lot lately
[17:27]	Kitto Flora:	If LL could *guarantee* no lost, and prove they could back it up, it would save on a lot of overhead I have in place
[17:27]	xstorm Radek:	it seems all my builds have other peoples names on them but my name
[17:27]	Charlette Proto:	redundancy
[17:28]	Charlette Proto:	second Inventory is it data or just UIDs?
[17:28]	xstorm Radek:	do to having to uses the mega prims
[17:28]	Rex Cronon:	u can make them no mod and add your name to the description:)
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	I'll try to get more info on any pending fixes for lost inventory.
[17:28]	Andrew Linden makes a note.
[17:28]	Sindy Tsure:	as long as you're the owner when you hand off the build to the buyer, i think that's pretty expected & normal, xstorm
[17:29]	xstorm Radek:	after sold it still shows the name of the maker of the prim not me
[17:29]	Kitto Flora:	Link the megaprim(s) to root standard prim that you created xstorm.
[17:29]	Sindy Tsure:	yes.. everything in sl is like that
[17:29]	xstorm Radek:	why not just make all the prims named after linden labs then
[17:30]	Charlette Proto:	I was under a strong impression the a griefer was able to corrupt mu inventory crashing the sim but only my inventory was bad
[17:30]	xstorm Radek:	and then no one takes credet
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, if you ensure that your own prim is always one you created, doesn't that obscure the multiplicity of creationship?
[17:31]	Opensource Obscure:	Is there any news about support for new input/output devices / hardware? any experiments at the lab?
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Alas, no such news Opensource.
[17:31]	Charlette Proto:	let me grab you with my dataglove Open
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	We've been focusing on stability, scalability, and some new stuff on the new-user experience.
[17:31]	xstorm Radek:	when some one looks at the info of the build it shows another persons name not me as the builder
[17:32]	Simon Linden:	I think most of the interesting work there has been done externally ... someone who is really interested in a particular piece of hardware
[17:32]	Sindy Tsure:	like that stuff mitch was doing with the 3d cameras
[17:32]	Sindy Tsure:	*mitch kapor
[17:32]	Charlette Proto:	users need to be able to reject payment from other residents (fake L$ are used for griefing and result in suspended accounts
[17:33]	xstorm Radek:	its as bad as saying a copy bot did my building and the mega prim maker was the person that did it
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	We ended up hiring the guy who did the SL integration on those 3D cameras. He's currently working on the map I think.
[17:33]	xstorm Radek:	i know it sounds silly
[17:33]	Sindy Tsure:	does that work, charlette?? can you send me L$20k or so to test??
[17:33]	Sindy Tsure:	:)
[17:33]	Charlette Proto:	the OK is there to obcure you UI but no reject
[17:33]	Sindy Tsure:	oh?? er.. philipe? something like that?
[17:33]	xstorm Radek:	but i take great pride in my work
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah.
[17:33]	Sindy Tsure:	nice
[17:34]	Simon Linden:	The 3Dconnexion gizmo is pretty nice to use
[17:34]	Sindy Tsure:	any details on the ghost script stuff? forums were a bit a-buzz about that recently.. is it as ugly as it sounds or sortofan edge case?
[17:34]	Charlette Proto:	I don't have fake (stolen L$) but Shadow Pidgeon had her account suspended for receiving fake L$
[17:34]	Simon Linden:	What do you mean by ghost scripts? The ones where source is missing?
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	Sindy, I'm not sure how to reproduce the ghost script thing.
[17:34]	Opensource Obscure:	i love my spacenavigator. unfortunately is still so hard to make it work on my operating system.
[17:34]	Rex Cronon:	ghost script?
[17:35]	Sindy Tsure digs in jira
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	But I need to audit the code to see if I can figure out why/how it could possibly happen.
[17:35]	Sindy Tsure:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3867
[17:35]	Simon Linden:	I think that's related to the older method of compiling and uploading scripts
[17:35]	Sindy Tsure:	and, of course, http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22 while i'm here.. :)
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	Currently the theory is that there is some glitch that can cause an object to be flagged for delete, but not actually get deleted.
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	If the object happens to have a script then that script will show up on some script usage scans.
[17:36]	Sindy Tsure:	i wasn't clear if it was scripts in ghosted objects or actually scripts without prims..
[17:36]	Sindy Tsure:	residents seem to think it's the later
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	No, I currently think the ghost scripts are attached to prims.
[17:36]	Sindy Tsure:	ok..
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	I have no proof. But that is my intuition.
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	Theres definitly ghosted scripts with ghosted prims.
[17:37]	Charlette Proto:	like particles that were not turned off?
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	Ghosted script without any prims I've yet to see. But I dont hera about them
[17:37]	Sindy Tsure:	it does seem to be something different than the ghost prims that have been around for a bit.. jira seems to say they survive a sim restart
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	Only ghosted prime
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	Yes Sindy
[17:38]	Kitto Flora:	And the ghosted prims +scripts vanish wit ha restart
[17:38]	Sindy Tsure:	never seen a ghost prim do that, unless it was stuck at 0,0,0
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... if someone has an example where the ghost scripts survive a sim restart I'd like to hear about it.
[17:38]	Rex Cronon:	that might explain why some sims r soooo laggy
[17:39]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[17:39]	Opensource Obscure:	andrew: you mean - other than the ones that already are are many in the jira
[17:39]	Opensource Obscure:	ouch
[17:39]	Opensource Obscure:	*that already are in Jira
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't seen the jira. If you have a jira number then please share it.
[17:39]	Opensource Obscure:	sure let me dig
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	I mean a region name and a ghost script name.
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3867 ?
[17:39]	Sindy Tsure:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3867
[17:40]	Charlette Proto:	simpler question - why the Status in viewer show a fals figure for Time Dialation?
[17:40]	Sindy Tsure:	d'oh.. he's fast, kitto!
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	Well it wqa mentioned 30 lines back
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	was
[17:40]	Simon Linden:	Charlette - which viewer, the most recent RC?
[17:40]	Charlette Proto:	last two releases of RC
[17:41]	Charlette Proto:	I have my own thing but the viewer shows close to 0.0 firgures
[17:41]	Simon Linden:	Can you give more details about the problem?
[17:42]	Sindy Tsure:	i'd be happy to check my home for those ghost scripts if andrew or simon would just add me to the mainland estate manager list.. really.. i don't mind
[17:42]	Charlette Proto:	everyone sees the viewer reporting Time Dialation dropping to 0.0 while the true figure from LSL may be 0,8
[17:42]	Simon Linden:	I'm seeing 0.99 here, but this is relatively lightly loaded
[17:42]	Sindy Tsure:	hi folks
[17:42]	Charlette Proto:	mone now is 0,09
[17:43]	Charlette Proto:	0,00
[17:43]	Charlette Proto:	mine*
[17:43]	Charlette Proto:	and 0.99 no7
[17:44]	Ardy Lay:	Second Life 1.22.10 (112620) Feb 20 2009 17:25:43 (Second Life Release Candidate) showing 0.99
[17:44]	Simon Linden:	Odd - I see it pretty steady right below 1.0
[17:44]	Simon Linden:	Second Life 1.22.10 (112620)
[17:44]	Charlette Proto:	weird but many people report it
[17:44]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew is there not a way to have LL make a set of mega prims that only go up to 20 x 20 and do away with all other mega prims in SL that go over that mega prim number ?
[17:44]	Charlette Proto:	Second Life 1.22.9 (110075) 0.63
[17:44]	Simon Linden:	That number _should_ be pretty much a direct report of a value from the region, and _should_ be the same for everyone
[17:45]	Ardy Lay:	It is bouncing around a bit.
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	Big dip there down to 0.4?
[17:45]	Sindy Tsure:	i don't think i've ever seen it at 1.0; thought 0.99 was as good as it got
[17:45]	Ardy Lay:	yes
[17:45]	Simon Linden:	Right, Andrew justed TPed in. That will cause a performance dip
[17:45]	Sindy Tsure:	bunch people tp'ing.. we need simon's XML ubercode!
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	I don't have any attachmen5ts.
[17:45]	Charlette Proto:	yep I compare it to script derived value but it is never the same
[17:45]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew is there not a way to have LL make a set of mega prims that only go up to 20 x 20 and do away with all other mega prims in SL that go over that mega prim number ?
[17:45]	Simon Linden:	yeah, Andrew's AV is about as light as it gets
[17:46]	Ardy Lay:	I fear that would break a lot of content.
[17:46]	Simon Linden:	The 'do away' part is hard - there are some existing builds that use mega-prims wisely, so we don't want to hurt them
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	Alas xstorm that request cannot be processed.
[17:46]	xstorm Radek:	any thing over 20 x 20 is not wise
[17:47]	xstorm Radek:	?
[17:47]	xstorm Radek:	did i scare him away ?
[17:47]	xstorm Radek:	oh there you are
[17:47]	Sindy Tsure:	any LLNET news?
[17:48]	Sindy Tsure:	FJ (FJ?) was talking about that deploying soon, i think
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	That is, there is no way that I know of that you can create 20x20 megaprims today, and I can't make them for you.
[17:48]	xstorm Radek:	:-S
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	There has been some LLNET chatter on the internal email. The last I heard they were starting again more slowly but still had no clue as to why the changeover was failing the way it did.
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	They are now proceeding with LLNET with smaller chunks of servers at a time.
[17:50]	Sindy Tsure:	as long as it's progressing! :)
[17:50]	xstorm Radek:	then i must say using a mega prim made by others as your own may be braking the TOS rules
[17:50]	Rex Cronon:	alreic has a question about llground and would like to know if she can get some help from a linden.
[17:51]	Aleric Inglewood:	he
[17:51]	xstorm Radek:	for the base prim is not your own
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	LLNET is some migration of our network traffic to new pipes. It will eliminate some stuff that was going over VPN.
[17:51]	Rex Cronon:	sorry :)
[17:51]	Sindy Tsure:	*tubes
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	The VPN hardware was working fine... as long as we didn't try to push a lot of data over it.
[17:51]	Bear Hunt Start: Bear Quest Start touched by Dahlia Trimble
[17:51]	Simon Linden:	FYI The OS upgrading for all the simulators is coming along pretty well - I think it's finishing up in a couple of days
[17:52]	Aleric Inglewood:	What that what erased the group access for sims?
[17:52]	Aleric Inglewood:	Was that*
[17:52]	Sindy Tsure makes a note to send prospero a cookie.. think etchification went longer than he expected..
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	Probably DHS taps are messing it up, while they figure out what-all 'prims' are, and if they are WMD.
[17:52]	Sindy Tsure:	llground question, aleric? jump in!
[17:52]	Simon Linden:	I haven't heard of that problem
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	Right, the OS is changing to 64bits, but server-1.25.5 is still made of 32bit executables.
[17:52]	Simon Linden:	Sure, what's the question?
[17:52]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew what about the rules when it comes to using other peoples work as your own ?
[17:52]	Aleric Inglewood:	Simon: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3903
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	server-1.26 will have 64bit executables
[17:53]	Aleric Inglewood:	My question is this (it will take a while to type this):
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, could you rephrase that question about "using other people's work as your own"? I'm not sure I understand which rules you're talking about.
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	Something from the TOS?
[17:55]	Aleric Inglewood:	I want to know the normal that is used to calculate the angle under which the sun falls on terrain, and therefore the color of terrain texture. The goal is to use prims with the same texture and the same normal, so that the color is exactly equal. So, I guess the main question is: how to get that normal? I did some research and it seemed that this normal is constant in 3x3 meter areas with a 1 meter strip between them where it gradually changes.
[17:55]	Simon Linden:	Aleric - I haven't heard of that issue before. Since it's a recent report, I'd guess it's either a new RC viewer problem, or some subtle bug introduced by the OS upgrade
[17:55]	xstorm Radek:	when a person is using a item they did not make such as the mega prim and use it to build some thing for a real life company it will have the name of the mega prim maker not the builder that used the mega prim
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	I'll add to "using other people's work" I've seen CopyBot at work PN's website has intructions and downloads and altAvatar are seling copies of me hehe
[17:56]	xstorm Radek:	its like the mega prim make used a bot to do another persons build
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	Aleric, the "sun" these days is a feature on a texture that is applied to a sky dome.
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	Associated with that sun location is an OpenGL light source
[17:56]	Aleric Inglewood:	I then did research on the meaning of llGroundNormal() and I failed to figure what it means... It returns values (x,y,1) where both, x and y seem to be constant over distances of 1 meter, but not changing at the same time - nor do they change at the same point (changing the X position for which it is called) as function of the Y position where it is called :/
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	that is, a light source is set in the render pipeline that is supposed to be somewhere near where the sun appears to be
[17:57]	Sindy Tsure:	xstorm, if the object did not come from the creator with a separate TOS, you can use it however the permissions allow
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	but the final color of the surface that is receiving the light is a result of some complicated equations...
[17:58]	xstorm Radek:	how do i know that the mega prim make will not take the user to court later on to clame the item as there own ?
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	no matter what color you set the prim to it won't match the ground color except for certain conditions
[17:58]	Sindy Tsure:	IM the creator and ask
[17:58]	Aleric Inglewood:	Andrew: Ok, so bottom line - all I need to do is make my prim have the same normal as the terrain surface... However, it is not clear what normal is being used for the terrain in regard to the OpenGL light source calculations. It surely is NOT the triangles that I see in wireframe mode for the terrain
[17:58]	Rex Cronon:	i think that aleric is interested in normal:)
[17:59]	Sindy Tsure:	normal = angle?
[17:59]	Sindy Tsure:	not color-type normal?
[17:59]	Aleric Inglewood:	normal is a vector that makes a 90 degree angle with a surface, Sindy
[17:59]	Rex Cronon:	normal=vector perpendicular to a polygon
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... I'm not sure what the normal is. You probably need to examine the SL client source to answer your question.
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	Or, whoever answers it will have to examine the source.
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	The "normal" of a plane is a vector that is perpendicular to the plane.
[18:00]	Dahlia Trimble:	I would guess that the viewer uses vertex normals, but I have not looked at the source to verify
[18:01]	Aleric Inglewood:	It is also not related to llGroundNormal(), which in turn is not related to the vertices of the terrain... so I started to wonder why llGround* exists at all: it is VERY inaccurately vaugely related to what you see, but off a lot.
[18:01]	Kitto Flora:	Considering that two parallel surfaces of different types of prims are illuminated differently by the sun, I think Aleric has a long hard road.
[18:01]	Aleric Inglewood:	pretty useless thus, for a perfectionist anyway ;)
[18:02]	Aleric Inglewood:	Kitto: I have absolutely perfect transistions of beachsand already, if I do it manually. It will just be too much, I need to be able to automate it.
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	Looks like this hour is up.
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	Any last minute issues?
[18:03]	Charlette Proto:	the sims that didn't load textures yesterday?
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	I crashed out for a while so I'll havet to cobble the chat logs back together.
[18:04]	Charlette Proto:	loaded avies but not the builds
[18:04]	Sindy Tsure:	i can send you a notecard transcript if you need, andrew
[18:04]	Rex Cronon:	i think that what xstorm wants is that everyting he/she builds to show him/her as the creator
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	Charlette, didn't load on the map? Or didn't load any textures in-world?
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	Sure Sindy, that would help.
[18:04]	Sindy Tsure:	i think we've been saying that that's probably not going to happen, rex.. just can't change the creator of something..
[18:05]	Charlette Proto:	the textures in buildings etc
[18:05]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew is there a way to have a company have mega prims made for them ?
[18:05]	Aleric Inglewood:	Simon: it is not a viewer isssue by the way. Unlike what that jira states, non of my sims residents could tp to the sim anymore until the allowed group was readded.
[18:05]	Charlette Proto:	fixed with restarts but not immediately and people were looking at MONO compiled scripts
[18:05]	xstorm Radek:	with just a company name ?
[18:05]	Rex Cronon:	i know, but if slviewer would allow megaprims to be edited created, thanit would be possible
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	I hadn't heard about that yet, but I'm not too surprised. There is a lot of activity going on around on the LL netowork this week.
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	Sounds like some network problem.
[18:06]	Simon Linden:	Aleric - so it seemed like the groups were removed from the list, not just missing from display?
[18:06]	Charlette Proto:	I suggested restrts and not worrying about MONO and it worked
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, there is no official channel for such requests that I know of, unless you're in some business partnership with LL
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	the precedence of handling such a request would launch a major headache as the next requests pile in
[18:07]	Aleric Inglewood:	The region was still 'group owned' showing the right group, but people in the group could not tp anymore (not allowed). The reason was that in the Estate tab in the "allowed groups" field, all groups had be cleared.
[18:07]	Sindy Tsure goes afk to RL.. ty andrew & simon!! i'll drop you a transcript when i get back, andrew..
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks Sindy. Do it today.
[18:08]	Kitto Flora has to go
[18:08]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye all
[18:08]	Rex Cronon:	bye kitto
[18:08]	Aleric Inglewood:	(this happened after a restart)
[18:08]	xstorm Radek:	bye kitto
[18:08]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew, simon
[18:08]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[18:08]	Aleric Inglewood:	Bye andrew, thanks for telling me I have to read the code -
[18:08]	Simon Linden:	Bye everyone, thanks for comin
[18:09]	Simon Linden:	g
[18:09]	Rex Cronon:	have fun
[18:09]	xstorm Radek:	i must go back to the gateway program and work
[18:09]	xstorm Radek:	bye every one
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	See you all later.
[18:09]	Charlette Proto:	the restarts must have overloaded the network it seems and caused a few glitches
[18:10]	Simon Linden:	That info should be saved in our 'simstate' files, which is the state of the world when the sim shuts down
[18:10]	Simon Linden:	I wonder if the data somehow is getting lost with the OS update ... it's odd that one piece like that went missing
[18:10]	Aleric Inglewood:	It seems unlikely that a network overload erased this data exactly the same on many sims.
[18:11]	Simon Linden:	Right - we save a big file with the info, send it up to the database, then when the region re-starts (possibly on another computer) it downloads it and loads it when it starts up
[18:12]	Simon Linden:	So it sounds like this bit of info is getting lost somehow
[18:12]	Simon Linden:	Do you have a region name where this happened?
[18:12]	Simon Linden:	I didn't see one in the jira
[18:12]	Aleric Inglewood:	Sounds like something goes wrong then in the cylce data --> database --> back to sim, for this field.
[18:12]	Charlette Proto gave you sl_090225_textures.
[18:13]	Charlette Proto:	Simon this is a pic of the AllStars sim with no textures
[18:13]	Charlette Proto:	well two sims OK two bad
[18:13]	Simon Linden:	Aleric - right, that's what it seems like
[18:13]	Ardy Lay:	Sunweaver Isle
[18:13]	Ardy Lay:	Sunlight Bay
[18:13]	Simon Linden:	yeah, thats' pretty ugly
[18:14]	Ardy Lay:	Sunweaver Cove
[18:14]	Simon Linden:	Did someone try a restart?
[18:14]	Ardy Lay:	Synny Beach
[18:14]	Ardy Lay:	Sunny Beach < ----
[18:14]	Aleric Inglewood:	In the jira it says: Sim restarts do not change what is displayed.
[18:15]	Charlette Proto:	people were lookig at MONO issues, this is from Monika Folland (owner of 50 sims) [2009/02/25 9:50] Monika Folland: 8:14] Babbage Linden: it may be caused by verification of the scripts digital signature on load
[18:15]	Sindy Tsure:	can i get a copy of that picture?
[18:15]	Simon Linden:	One theory - there were database problems when the region came up. The region couldn't fetch all those textures, so marked them locally as 'missing from the database'. Then when you log in, it doesn't send them since it thinks they are not available
[18:15]	Aleric Inglewood:	I suppose they mean that someone did a restart and the "allowed groups" field where still empty. They talk about "display" here because the one reporting this had no problems with the actual access.
[18:15]	Sindy Tsure:	ty
[18:15]	Simon Linden:	yes, the jira is confusing about access - some say it's OK, others say not
[18:16]	Simon Linden:	Question - are others seeing Patty1 as a fuzzy blob or normal>?
[18:16]	Charlette Proto:	Patty1 you aren't rezzing
[18:16]	Aleric Inglewood:	Last weekend I lost changes that I made to scripts five times in half an hour.... this is because during the weekend there are more people and the database is overloaded.... However, I find it hardly acceptable to lose data like that :/ ... Is it really that hard to fix these overload issues? :(
[18:17]	Sindy Tsure:	i think i've seen something like that before.. pending downloads was going thru the roof for a while then recovered but some textures seemed to stay gray until the next sim restart
[18:17]	Charlette Proto:	just said it then Patty1 is a fluff
[18:17]	Aleric Inglewood:	(that is: I had a rezzed object, in the content tab a script that I opened and changed. Then I did a Take Back to inventory. And when I rezzed it again I stil had the old script and my changes were gone)
[18:18]	Ardy Lay:	Like this?
[18:18]	Simon Linden:	She's gone? I was going to ask her to try re-baking textures
[18:18]	Simon Linden:	yeah
[18:18]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe
[18:18]	Charlette Proto:	same outcome Sindy I suggested restrt and it fixed it but the weird thing was that all textures were grey
[18:18]	Sindy Tsure:	i have that problem all the time with my rezzer wand.. i make an update with it attached and cycle it thru inventory then find my changes didn't stick
[18:18]	Sindy Tsure:	did you check pending downloads, charlette?
[18:18]	Sindy Tsure:	stats bar, ctrl-shift-1, under Simulator
[18:19]	Charlette Proto:	not my sim I was called in for a fresh brain by Monika Folland
[18:19]	Charlette Proto:	Monika Folland rents the sim from someone else yet who deals with LL
[18:19]	Sindy Tsure:	always the first thing i check when stuff has problems rezzing.. don't need to be an estate manager to see it
[18:19]	Charlette Proto:	I'll take a not
[18:19]	Ardy Lay:	There is a "cloud hair" object being passed around that makes us look like clouds when we wear it.
[18:20]	Charlette Proto:	note*
[18:20]	Sindy Tsure:	if the sim has problem talking to the back end servers, that number will be going up.. should usually be pretty close to 0
[18:20]	Charlette Proto:	ah good to know the symptom
[18:20]	Sindy Tsure:	:)
[18:21]	Aleric Inglewood:	I scared my friends with it, when we were telling ghost stories in the dark :)
[18:21]	Sindy Tsure:	simon could give you a better definition but I think of it as the number of things the sim knows is needed but that it can't get yet.. waiting for the asset server or something
[18:22]	Charlette Proto:	gives me a good idea of what to look for thanks Sindy BTW nice tag
[18:22]	Sindy Tsure:	:)
[18:22]	Sindy Tsure:	wb, pattycloud!
[18:22]	Sindy Tsure:	:D
[18:22]	Simon Linden:	Yes, it's the number of items this region is downloading from the back end
[18:23]	Charlette Proto:	yep cloud again Patty1 your inventory needs a wipe
[18:23]	Simon Linden:	Patty1 - try pressing ctrl-alt-r (I assume you're on windows)
[18:23]	Ardy Lay:	Are you wearing "Cloud-Hair"? :-)
[18:23]	Simon Linden:	or Advanced/character/re-bake textures
[18:24]	Sindy Tsure thinks she's having net problems..
[18:24]	Sindy Tsure:	or something on her end..
[18:24]	Charlette Proto:	mine inventory is like my bedroom floor but deleting everything always works
[18:24]	Charlette Proto:	WiFi hell perhaps
[18:25]	Sindy Tsure:	yep
[18:25]	Simon Linden:	yeah, that didn't work well
[18:25]	Aleric Inglewood:	Simon, can you tell me what the fifth component in avatar skin is?
[18:26]	Sindy Tsure:	eyes?
[18:26]	Aleric Inglewood:	No, skin
[18:26]	Aleric Inglewood:	and clothes...
[18:26]	Sindy Tsure:	er..
[18:26]	Aleric Inglewood:	components 0, 1 and 2 are Red Green and Blue...
[18:26]	Aleric Inglewood:	Then 4 is probably Alpha... but what is 3?
[18:27]	Simon Linden:	I don't know - haven't worked in that area
[18:27]	Aleric Inglewood:	Would Andrew know?
[18:27]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. thought you meant the composited images.. viewer bakes into 5 separate images
[18:27]	Simon Linden:	I did some work recently with the baked textures ... we're slowly moving them to a better, http-based system
[18:27]	Sindy Tsure:	upper, lower, head, eyes and.. er.. arms?
[18:27]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure - Andrew is normally a server person
[18:28]	Aleric Inglewood:	:/
[18:28]	Aleric Inglewood:	I have another bug that I didn't report yet... too busy :/
[18:28]	Simon Linden:	There are some office hours for viewer developers that would have a better handle on it
[18:28]	Aleric Inglewood:	It only appears in skirts on 64but
[18:28]	Aleric Inglewood:	64bit
[18:29]	Sindy Tsure:	where did you read that there were 5 parts to the skin?
[18:29]	Sindy Tsure:	just curious.. hadn't heard that before
[18:29]	Aleric Inglewood:	I didn't read it - I have been hacking the client code
[18:30]	Simon Linden:	ok, I have to get going ... thanks again for coming
[18:30]	Sindy Tsure:	each is a byte per pixel?