User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 04 23
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Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:
| [17:01] | xstorm Radek: | hi Andrew |
| [17:01] | Patty1 Rosca: | hey andrew |
| [17:01] | Simon Linden: | We're actually working together on bugs in the latest server, trying to get a new update soon |
| [17:01] | Moon Metty: | hi Andrew :) |
| [17:01] | Charlette Proto: | hi everyone |
| [17:01] | Patty1 Rosca: | hi charlotte |
| [17:02] | xstorm Radek gave you 1969 bug ?. | |
| [17:02] | Charlette Proto: | can't see vacant chair |
| [17:02] | Charlette Proto: | hehe |
| [17:02] | Patty1 Rosca: | next to me |
| [17:02] | Charlette Proto: | fps is flactuating a lot |
| [17:03] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hi folks :-) |
| [17:03] | xstorm Radek: | Andrew im starting to see more and more sims showing 1969 for dates |
| [17:03] | xstorm Radek: | is it my side ? |
| [17:03] | Andrew Linden: | oof, what a day. Totally I didn't actually fix the bug I was working on. |
| [17:03] | Morgaine Dinova: | Uh oh |
| [17:03] | Moon Metty: | :) |
| [17:03] | xstorm Radek: | what bug was that ? |
| [17:04] | Morgaine Dinova: | SVC-22 |
| [17:04] | Simon Linden: | hey xstorm, that's an interesting bug ... did you write up a jira? |
| [17:04] | Morgaine Dinova: | :P |
| [17:04] | xstorm Radek: | no |
| [17:04] | Andrew Linden: | xstorm, I think I got your notecard about that |
| [17:04] | Andrew Linden: | but I didn't look at the textures |
| [17:04] | Charlette Proto: | storm you mic is too sensative and makes noise periodically |
| [17:04] | Simon Linden: | I'm guessing that's some missing data, and using 0 as the date value |
| [17:04] | xstorm Radek: | it all started with that ghost sim |
| [17:04] | Moon Metty: | or -1 more like |
| [17:05] | Simon Linden: | Andrew - it shows land info (such as claim date) as Dec 31, 16:0000 1969 |
| [17:05] | Andrew Linden: | oh hrm... last modified at the end of dec 1969 |
| [17:05] | Andrew Linden: | that must be epoch 0? |
| [17:05] | xstorm Radek: | i did get to step on that ghost island then i started to crash a lot after |
| [17:05] | Moon Metty: | hehe |
| [17:06] | Charlette Proto: | lots of items report as being created in 1969 |
| [17:06] | Simon Linden: | yeah, or right before it. Maybe time zones get factored in as well |
| [17:06] | Morgaine Dinova: | I thought we'd decide that such pre-1970 dates were just 1/1/1970 with negative timezone offset |
| [17:06] | xstorm Radek: | hi Ardy |
| [17:06] | Moon Metty: | hi again Ardy |
| [17:06] | Simon Linden: | That sounds like two things ... missing data, and the viewer not handling it gracefully |
| [17:06] | Ardy Lay: | Hi |
| [17:06] | Asterion Coen: | hello folks :) |
| [17:06] | Simon Linden: | Hello |
| [17:06] | Andrew Linden: | yeah, it could be missing data |
| [17:06] | xstorm Radek: | hi Asterion |
| [17:06] | Patty1 Rosca: | hi aster |
| [17:06] | Ardy Lay: | Funny dates ... see Pheonix Linden's profile. |
| [17:07] | Asterion Coen: | just a stupid question: why eatch time or almost i TP, i got a second time the TP interface coming once reached the destination ? :) |
| [17:07] | Andrew Linden: | in the frame I was looking at the date is for the "About Land" convenant, which pulls from the database (db) |
| [17:08] | Andrew Linden: | Let me check the land below us... |
| [17:08] | xstorm Radek: | im starting to think some one has taken a mainland and hid it or has hidden a island making a data base error on a server |
| [17:08] | Andrew Linden: | Yeah, this land also shows up affected |
| [17:08] | Asterion Coen: | what r u talking about ? |
| [17:08] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hi Ast :-) |
| [17:08] | Andrew Linden: | xstorm, when did you first notice it? |
| [17:08] | Asterion Coen: | hi morgane :) |
| [17:09] | Patty1 Rosca: | i did last week |
| [17:09] | xstorm Radek: | some time back about a mounth |
| [17:09] | Asterion Coen: | (where is kittie?) |
| [17:09] | Moon Metty: | :) |
| [17:09] | Simon Linden: | Andrew - I didn't see a problem here. It showed me 2007 |
| [17:09] | Ardy Lay: | The last modified date is weird, no? |
| [17:09] | xstorm Radek: | i been chasing a ghost all over SL |
| [17:09] | Andrew Linden: | The bug is: RightClick on land and select "AboutLand" and navigate to the CovenantTab in the UI widget |
| [17:09] | Simon Linden: | About land, claim time? |
| [17:09] | Simon Linden: | ah, right. That's 1969 |
| [17:09] | Morgaine Dinova: | xstorm: just remember, don't cross the streams. |
| [17:09] | Andrew Linden: | you'll see that the land's covenant was last modified in 1969 |
| [17:10] | xstorm Radek: | its not the same for every one |
| [17:10] | Asterion Coen: | 1969 how fun |
| [17:10] | xstorm Radek: | pointing to a data base error it seems |
| [17:10] | Moon Metty: | ohh, i see jan 01 01:00:00 1970here |
| [17:10] | Patty1 Rosca: | i wasnt born yet |
| [17:10] | Andrew Linden: | so yeah, the date must be showing up as epoch == 0 seconds since epoch is 1970-01-01 00:00:00 |
| [17:10] | Moon Metty: | i'm in Amsterdam |
| [17:10] | xstorm Radek: | some people see it some people do not see it |
| [17:10] | Andrew Linden: | but the timezone code is pushing the time into 1969 |
| [17:10] | Ardy Lay: | Ah... epoch offset my local timezone. |
| [17:10] | Asterion Coen: | i was sure SL was first invented by the DoD |
| [17:11] | Simon Linden: | However there is no convent here, so is that really a DB error or a no-data-found handling problem? |
| [17:11] | Ardy Lay: | offset BY local timezone |
| [17:11] | xstorm Radek: | yes i think so |
| [17:11] | Asterion Coen: | /(is 1969 the bios time of your servers?) :) |
| [17:11] | Morgaine Dinova: | Convent? That comes after the Adult Content change ;-) |
| [17:11] | Simon Linden: | FWIW I"m on the 1.23 RC viewer - anyone on 1.22? |
| [17:11] | Andrew Linden: | sorry xstorm, you're saying you noticed this problem before the server-1.26 deploy? |
| [17:12] | xstorm Radek: | when i did SQL system i had a inventory error like it doing book system for a library |
| [17:12] | Charlette Proto: | I'm using 1.22 RC |
| [17:12] | Patty1 Rosca: | i am |
| [17:12] | Simon Linden: | ok, that points to an older problem, or not anything in the viewer |
| [17:12] | Charlette Proto: | getting Thu Jan 01 11:00 1970 |
| [17:12] | xstorm Radek: | im happy to say i will never do SQL ever again *GIGGLES* :)Andrew Linden 00:37, 16 May 2009 (UTC) |
| [17:13] | Andrew Linden: | ok well I'll take a note and try to ask the other LL devs to see if they have an idea, or know about it |
| [17:14] | xstorm Radek: | its like the LL assets server time out i see a lot |
| [17:14] | Andrew Linden: | announcements... we're still working on server-1.26.3 and it keeps picking up new bugs everyday |
| [17:14] | Moon Metty: | oops |
| [17:14] | Charlette Proto: | hehe |
| [17:14] | xstorm Radek: | that was a old bug seems to come back again |
| [17:15] | Andrew Linden: | I think the current hope is to deploy a pilot roll of server-1.26.3 sometime late next week, let it sit over the weekend, and roll the rest of the world the week after that |
| [17:15] | Arawn Spitteler: | Is it up on Aditi? |
| [17:16] | xstorm Radek: | i ran the debug to day to see lots of errors in some sims when they load |
| [17:16] | Andrew Linden: | That is the only news I've got. I've been swamped with server-1.26.3 emergencies and haven't been paying attention to much else. |
| [17:16] | xstorm Radek: | and it seems to be making lag |
| [17:16] | Simon Linden: | Arawn - the latest (built this morning) is on Aditi |
| [17:16] | Asterion Coen: | did LL did some change in the Calleta sim , about 2 weeks ago ? |
| [17:16] | Andrew Linden: | There is an candidate server-1.26.3 up on aditit I think but not all "required" bugs are fixed therein. |
| [17:17] | Charlette Proto: | RE permissions, I've heard some murmor about a new permission attribute for moving stuff onto OpenSim grids |
| [17:17] | xstorm Radek: | i was in that sim |
| [17:17] | Asterion Coen: | i whole part of the train station (next to hobos village) desapeared, built 2 years ago |
| [17:17] | xstorm Radek: | its one of the places thats full of bugs |
| [17:17] | Simon Linden: | 2 weeks ago? About then we started the 1.25 rollout. It went through some fixes and didn't get to the full grid until last week |
| [17:18] | Object: Hello, Avatar! | |
| [17:18] | Object: Hello, Avatar! | |
| [17:18] | Andrew Linden: | I'm not aware of anything related to Calleta, but then I've bee working on other stuff. What is the change in Calleta that happened then? |
| [17:18] | xstorm Radek: | so i will just watch till the bugs come out more ? |
| [17:18] | Asterion Coen: | i asked a rollback to the owner (but he is in deplacment for work), so i put an old save i got waiting he comes back and ask the rollback |
| [17:19] | Asterion Coen: | a wing of the station desapeared |
| [17:19] | Asterion Coen: | next to ZZland |
| [17:19] | Asterion Coen: | it was one of the fist structure i built about the station |
| [17:20] | Andrew Linden: | Asterion, that was a while ago? more than a week? |
| [17:20] | xstorm Radek: | ouch so thats what happen ? |
| [17:20] | Asterion Coen: | first |
| [17:20] | Asterion Coen: | andrew aobut 2 week ago, when a teamate noticed the lost |
| [17:20] | Object: Hello, Avatar! | |
| [17:20] | Object: Hello, Avatar! | |
| [17:20] | Andrew Linden: | ack. I doubt you'll get the rollback -- too much time has gone by. |
| [17:21] | xstorm Radek: | sorry i did see that missing a week ago |
| [17:21] | xstorm Radek: | did not think much about it |
| [17:21] | Andrew Linden: | Also, any clues in the logs about why that content disappeared is probably gone. |
| [17:21] | Asterion Coen: | then i asked to the land owner (a train chartering company) to ask for a rollback - but he is in deplacment for work, i dunno when he will comeback |
| [17:22] | Asterion Coen: | i put an old save, but thats realy a old one. too much work to build it as it was |
| [17:22] | Asterion Coen: | and dont have time anymore though |
| [17:22] | Asterion Coen: | nop |
| [17:23] | Asterion Coen: | im sure that's not a lost and found, an error, or other bad manipulation from other teamates |
| [17:23] | xstorm Radek: | Asterion what happen to the old train station you had ? |
| [17:23] | Yann Dufaux: | hi all :)) |
| [17:23] | Patty1 Rosca: | all my landmarks from my inventory is also gone |
| [17:23] | xstorm Radek: | hi Yann |
| [17:24] | Charlette Proto: | nice one Patty |
| [17:24] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hiya Yann :-) |
| [17:24] | Asterion Coen: | it just desapaerd (several parts), not only one from the west wing |
| [17:24] | Yann Dufaux: | hey Morgaine :D |
| [17:24] | Asterion Coen: | i havent noticed any other lost stuffs |
| [17:24] | xstorm Radek: | oh crap |
| [17:24] | xstorm Radek: | that was a very old build |
| [17:24] | Yann Dufaux: | wb Moon!! ;) |
| [17:24] | Andrew Linden: | yeah I hear you Asterion, I just don't have much info to offer right now. |
| [17:24] | Arawn Spitteler: | Have you filed a support ticket, Patty? |
| [17:24] | Patty1 Rosca: | yes |
| [17:25] | Asterion Coen: | xstorm yes, hpefully, i did some postcard of it hehe |
| [17:25] | Andrew Linden: | If it were a recent event then I might be able to dig around, but this one is lost to history. |
| [17:25] | Patty1 Rosca: | 30K is also missing |
| [17:25] | Arawn Spitteler: | Is there a channel that Asterion should have filed a heads up, that a roll back might be needed? |
| [17:25] | xstorm Radek: | hi LoLa |
| [17:25] | LoLa Varriale: | Hello there. |
| [17:25] | Arawn Spitteler: | L$30,000 or 30,000 of inventory? |
| [17:25] | Patty1 Rosca: | 30K inventory |
| [17:25] | Asterion Coen: | i cant fill anything, im not the owner |
| [17:26] | Andrew Linden: | I'm not sure Arawn. There are some support channels, but I think they listen primarily to the estate owners. |
| [17:26] | xstorm Radek: | ok im starting to see a pattern |
| [17:26] | Andrew Linden: | So Asterion's contact with the estate owner was the right way to go, I think. |
| [17:26] | Patty1 Rosca: | hi tech |
| [17:26] | xstorm Radek: | it has to be a Data Base error |
| [17:26] | Arawn Spitteler: | I know oif Spirit City crashes, I can file a ticket |
| [17:26] | Techwolf Lupindo: | Hi all |
| [17:26] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: there really needs to be some form of user backup. People have too much invested in builds to have no backup and to rely 100% on SL reliability. One day it'll land you in court for millions. Provide a system for user backup. |
| [17:26] | Asterion Coen: | eve,n michael linden told me to ask to fill the ticket |
| [17:26] | Andrew Linden: | Patty1, you say you lost 30k inventory items? |
| [17:27] | Patty1 Rosca: | yes |
| [17:27] | xstorm Radek: | i know i lost a lot of texture files |
| [17:27] | Asterion Coen: | but i will ask to paddy to be put in the owner group, so i can do something if (i hope no) the prob comes again |
| [17:27] | xstorm Radek: | and do not have backups |
| [17:27] | Andrew Linden: | When was the loss noticed? |
| [17:27] | Patty1 Rosca: | monday |
| [17:28] | Andrew Linden: | textures you had uploaded or textures you had aquired? |
| [17:28] | xstorm Radek: | about the same time the ghost island started showing up |
| [17:28] | Asterion Coen: | 30k l$ ? erf |
| [17:28] | xstorm Radek: | textures i had from 2003 |
| [17:28] | Asterion Coen: | about the 1/10e i lost in sl banks :) |
| [17:29] | Ardy Lay: | A good old fashined cache clearing brought my "missing inventory" back. |
| [17:29] | Morgaine Dinova: | Well you can't back up money. But for the rest, user backup just isn't optional. |
| [17:29] | xstorm Radek: | roads and building textures such as that |
| [17:29] | Patty1 Rosca: | i tried that |
| [17:29] | Charlette Proto: | agree with Morgaine, cache delete always does the trick |
| [17:29] | Patty1 Rosca: | hi rex |
| [17:29] | Rex Cronon: | hi patty1 |
| [17:30] | Rex Cronon: | hi everybody |
| [17:30] | xstorm Radek: | im going to buy a program to save every thing to my harddrive |
| [17:30] | Morgaine Dinova: | Ardy said that, not me |
| [17:30] | xstorm Radek: | i no longer trust assets |
| [17:30] | Andrew Linden: | xstorm, you lost some road textures? Hrm... I wonder if they were part of a DMCA takedown event. |
| [17:30] | Charlette Proto: | Second Inventory storm? |
| [17:30] | Asterion Coen: | oh, yes, about textures i upload, i see time to time some of them desapeared too (even with clear the cache, log again, etc.) |
| [17:30] | Patty1 Rosca: | my inventory dated way back |
| [17:30] | xstorm Radek: | when did that happen ? |
| [17:30] | Asterion Coen: | but im not counting them everyday |
| [17:30] | Asterion Coen: | i cant know when |
| [17:31] | Asterion Coen: | but some time i need some of them and then i see they r missing |
| [17:31] | Andrew Linden: | dunno, I'm just wondering. |
| [17:31] | Andrew Linden: | We also have real inventory loss issues, as some of you know. |
| [17:31] | xstorm Radek: | :-S |
| [17:31] | Latif Khalifa: | I more often experience thinks that are in my inv but the asset server "eats them" :P |
| [17:31] | Andrew Linden: | I think there was a fix for most of the inventory loss issues in the pipeline. I'm not sure where that was though. |
| [17:31] | Latif Khalifa: | you get the infamous "missing from the db" |
| [17:32] | Andrew Linden: | that is, whether it was supposed to be in server-1.26 or 1.27 |
| [17:32] | Andrew Linden: | or maybe I'm just going crazy and my memory is failing. I'd have to ask around. |
| [17:32] | Arawn Spitteler finlly recalls the word, Langoliers: Have Langoliers been digitized, for the asset servers, yet? | |
| [17:32] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hiya Latif! |
| [17:32] | Latif Khalifa: | hey :) |
| [17:32] | Asterion Coen: | andrew, texture issues r not realy an big issue, as we still can upload them again. but what about items in inv ? |
| [17:33] | xstorm Radek: | not me |
| [17:33] | xstorm Radek: | i lost my server |
| [17:33] | Andrew Linden: | Langliers spontaneously instantiate themselves, I think, even in virtual worlds. |
| [17:33] | Patty1 Rosca: | textures are everything |
| [17:33] | Asterion Coen: | most of my stuffs, excepted in sims, r not saved into other accounts, or else |
| [17:33] | Latif Khalifa: | Patty1, I am more devastated when the assest server spontaneosly deletes scripts ;P |
| [17:33] | Yann Dufaux: | how many time to make an upload in 3d texture for prime? |
| [17:34] | xstorm Radek: | yes old scripts are not much of a lost |
| [17:34] | Patty1 Rosca: | so me uploading you think is nothing |
| [17:34] | Latif Khalifa: | xstorm: ?? |
| [17:34] | Andrew Linden: | Asterion, I think we're still sheilding ourselves with some terms of service agreement about how failures of the service are to be waived. |
| [17:35] | xstorm Radek: | but textures are 10 L every upload |
| [17:35] | Andrew Linden: | but I am not a lawyer (IANAL) |
| [17:35] | Latif Khalifa: | xstorm, you obviously never wrote script for days just to have the asset server delete them |
| [17:35] | Andrew Linden: | I think some lost inventory is recoverable, but I know very little of the technical details on that. |
| [17:35] | Andrew Linden: | I'd have to ask the other LL devs. |
| [17:36] | Techwolf Lupindo: | I've jsut started to do some scripting. I allways do a copy and paste to notepad as a backup. |
| [17:36] | Asterion Coen: | hope the lawyer is a good builder too :) |
| [17:36] | xstorm Radek: | 2 days on one script and be just copy back in no fee |
| [17:36] | Patty1 Rosca: | good deal tech |
| [17:36] | Techwolf Lupindo: | Or other text program on linux. |
| [17:36] | Asterion Coen: | i will provide him the textures, but i will be on his back until a similar build :) |
| [17:36] | Andrew Linden: | That is, I think some inventory items are in the db but in some corrupt (but fixable) form, and someone wrote a script that could find and recover some of them. |
| [17:36] | xstorm Radek: | when you have over $200 real money in textures its a hard lost |
| [17:37] | Rex Cronon: | so people don't usually save scripts on their harddrive? |
| [17:37] | Patty1 Rosca: | a lot is spent on uploads Latif |
| [17:37] | Andrew Linden: | But this is very much rumor... my memory is fuzzy on that memory -- it was mentioned in passing when talking about some other subject months ago. |
| [17:37] | Asterion Coen: | lot of 10l$ upload the 200usd textures :) |
| [17:37] | xstorm Radek: | scripts i keep on thumb drives |
| [17:37] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: a few days ago, Philip said publicly that full perms did not imply permission to move assets to another grid, because the creator of the assets may not have been aware of the implications. On the 25th, a new grid is opening (SpotOn3D grid), and they're officially recommending the use of Second Inventory to move full perms stuff across. I'm not sure what the outcome will be, but I hope it's nothing bad. Any comment? |
| [17:37] | Latif Khalifa: | Rex, not until the first time they lose stuff, they are supposed to be saved safely on the asset server |
| [17:37] | Arawn Spitteler: | I remember something about inventory loss is sometimes related to Packet Loss. |
| [17:37] | Techwolf Lupindo: | I think some don't relise that they can copy and paste the code into a text program that can save it to there harddrive. |
| [17:38] | Latif Khalifa: | Techwolf, people don't think they need to |
| [17:38] | xstorm Radek: | just say no to OpenSim |
| [17:38] | Latif Khalifa: | lol |
| [17:38] | Morgaine Dinova: | xstorm: that's not an option. |
| [17:38] | Patty1 Rosca: | like the prim docker |
| [17:38] | Charlette Proto: | Techwolf do you really think this is our first day?? |
| [17:38] | Andrew Linden: | Morgaine, I haven't heard of SpotOn3D. |
| [17:39] | Andrew Linden: | but I have heard of the issue of how the new grids weren't really under consideration when people made content in the past |
| [17:39] | xstorm Radek: | yes Prim Docker started moving sim land like it was water lol |
| [17:39] | Techwolf Lupindo: | Not you, others not here, beginnning scripter and so on. Some user see things for what they apear to them. There is nothing wrong with them, they just don't know or never relise the scripts are text. |
| [17:39] | Patty1 Rosca: | it messes up a sim |
| [17:39] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: http://spoton3d.com/ |
| [17:39] | xstorm Radek: | bug in the script |
| [17:39] | Asterion Coen: | i got some funny story about scripts too :) some wokrking fine, dont want to compile once modified (witch mean they r not working anymore) :) |
| [17:39] | Andrew Linden: | but it makes sense that we'd try to allow people to be able to specify if they want to allow their content to be used in other "grids", outside of SL proper |
| [17:39] | Charlette Proto: | gosh Tech |
| [17:40] | Asterion Coen: | my latest - is a verry usefull (for me) mirror script, not working anymore :) |
| [17:40] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: Infinity knows about them, went to chat with them a week ago. |
| [17:40] | Charlette Proto: | so will there be a special permission attribute for full perm inc. OpenSim? |
| [17:40] | xstorm Radek: | i do not wish the items i build to be taken off LL servers |
| [17:40] | Rex Cronon: | i have some scripts that run but when u try to open them t says is missing from db:( |
| [17:41] | Andrew Linden: | Charlette, that idea has been kicked around the lab, I believe. |
| [17:41] | Asterion Coen: | oh, i got that one too |
| [17:41] | Andrew Linden: | And it seems to me the right way to go |
| [17:41] | Asterion Coen: | about 2 or 3 times |
| [17:41] | Andrew Linden: | however it also seems to me that all legacy content would have to have that permission bit set to "no" instead of "yes". |
| [17:41] | Asterion Coen: | usualy wehn exiting the interface without wait the confirmation about compilation done |
| [17:41] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: I agree. |
| [17:41] | Asterion Coen: | (or a crach) |
| [17:42] | Andrew Linden: | Just out of curiosity xstorm, why would you want to keep your content on LL-hosted severs only? |
| [17:42] | Latif Khalifa: | its a bit silly since the SL client lets you save full perm textures, scripts etc. to the disk |
| [17:42] | xstorm Radek: | i need to buy patty the backup program so she can save her items befor there gone |
| [17:42] | xstorm Radek: | same with me |
| [17:42] | Latif Khalifa: | why make a difference with full perm prims? |
| [17:42] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: the problem though is that LL's xstreet is selling Second Inventory, which has made people think that copying full-perm items is fine. And nobody wants to tell that to SpotOn3D point blank. |
| [17:43] | Asterion Coen: | we could speak too about those scripts that stay ghost once removed (like overtext, or particule) about systematicaly |
| [17:43] | Rex Cronon: | u can save full perm textures to the disk? |
| [17:43] | xstorm Radek: | i have a 1TB backup drive |
| [17:43] | Charlette Proto: | in that case only new content could be copied out irrespective of the open source intentions (implied by full perm or expressed) of the ceator |
| [17:43] | xstorm Radek: | yes |
| [17:43] | Latif Khalifa: | Morgaine, you can already copy full prim content with regular sl viewer... texutes, scripts, etc etc |
| [17:43] | Morgaine Dinova: | Latif: but not officially. |
| [17:43] | Latif Khalifa: | how come? |
| [17:43] | Latif Khalifa: | i can save a texture |
| [17:44] | xstorm Radek: | too slow to save them one at a time |
| [17:44] | Charlette Proto: | legality is and issue here not capability Latif |
| [17:44] | Morgaine Dinova: | That's the problem, the gap between what can be done unofficially, and what Philip says (very rationally I think), and what Second Inventory allows. They speak with 3 tongues. |
| [17:44] | Techwolf Lupindo: | doesn't the official LL SL client allows copy textrue to hard drive? Scripts are easy, open and copy paste. |
| [17:44] | xstorm Radek: | i will be there for over a year doing it one at a time |
| [17:44] | Latif Khalifa: | how is File->save texture as in the viewer unofficial? |
| [17:44] | xstorm Radek: | yes |
| [17:45] | xstorm Radek: | if you paid for the textures they are yours to use just not to resale |
| [17:45] | Techwolf Lupindo looks "There it is, greyed out. File>Save Texture As." | |
| [17:45] | Latif Khalifa: | xstorm, you can save it if you open full perm texture |
| [17:45] | Charlette Proto: | this brings us to Second Inventory, anyone knoe the LL position on that? |
| [17:45] | Moon Metty: | you first have to open a texture with perms |
| [17:46] | Latif Khalifa: | find full perm texture in your inv, open it, file -> save texture us |
| [17:46] | Latif Khalifa: | as |
| [17:46] | xstorm Radek: | taken me over a year to move them one time |
| [17:46] | Latif Khalifa: | pretty official |
| [17:46] | Asterion Coen: | charlette the TOS say that's illegal ;) |
| [17:46] | xstorm Radek: | with the lost im getting it will be gone |
| [17:46] | Rex Cronon: | i heard that somebody got a permaban for cloning a linden bear |
| [17:46] | Asterion Coen: | now, every one is using it |
| [17:46] | Charlette Proto: | ah explicitly or you are infering it Asterion? |
| [17:47] | xstorm Radek: | i will pay the $20 USD to backup the data |
| [17:47] | Asterion Coen: | well, that's a kind of copyboyt |
| [17:47] | Asterion Coen: | copybot |
| [17:47] | xstorm Radek: | no copybot |
| [17:47] | Rex Cronon: | i think that person was just copyingeverithing in the inventory, and the linden bear was among the items |
| [17:47] | Morgaine Dinova: | The ToS says it's illegal, Philip says it's not appropriate because the creator wasn't aware of other grids, Second Inventory says it's fine to copy, and SpotOn3D says it's great. Confused? |
| [17:47] | Charlette Proto: | not realy it works on your own stuff Asterion |
| [17:48] | Asterion Coen: | you own stuffs, doesnt mean u r the author |
| [17:48] | Rex Cronon: | seems u have 2 play it by the ear:) |
| [17:48] | Charlette Proto: | hehe appropriate is a weak word |
| [17:48] | Charlette Proto: | many things I do are not appropriate |
| [17:49] | xstorm Radek: | i love SL and LL and will not use any of what i have on any other system other then SL |
| [17:49] | Moon Metty: | in the 1.23 release notes it says: "Changed: Make asset upload fees variable at the viewer ". Does that mean the upload fee will change? |
| [17:49] | Morgaine Dinova: | Americans may want to play it by ear because they love suing people and they love being sued. But the rest of the world doesn't. |
| [17:49] | Techwolf Lupindo: | LL could easy allow user saved backup. Send the data to the user as a encrypted file with LL holding the keys/certs. The file is useless to anybody without the keys to decrypte. When something bad happend, a support ticket can be filled out and the file can be used for verfication. Do not have a auto-restore, that would lead to dup bugs exploits. |
| [17:49] | Asterion Coen: | the only folks who dont have second inventory (or similar) issues, r the scripters :) |
| [17:49] | xstorm Radek: | what we need is a bulk save to harddrive |
| [17:50] | Latif Khalifa: | Moon, I heard there was a suggestion that premium accounts will have cheaper uploads... one of the suggestions to make premium more desireeable |
| [17:50] | Asterion Coen: | (sadly, im not a scripter) |
| [17:50] | Moon Metty: | ok Latif |
| [17:50] | xstorm Radek: | i hate to think all the work i do can be lost by one server error |
| [17:50] | Asterion Coen: | xstrom same here |
| [17:50] | Asterion Coen: | im not only building 31 prims stuffs |
| [17:50] | Moon Metty: | you could start an uploading business then :) |
| [17:51] | Arawn Spitteler: | Archiving might be possible. Is it possible to store all the keys in a .txt file? |
| [17:51] | Asterion Coen: | or simpler, a export tools |
| [17:51] | Charlette Proto: | key are different to havind data offline |
| [17:52] | Asterion Coen: | that export inv content into a local or remote other area |
| [17:52] | Asterion Coen: | (and abble to import then, of course) |
| [17:52] | Andrew Linden: | well, I haven't been involved in the Second Inventory project. I'm assuming that they are thinking about these issues and have some conclusions about them. |
| [17:52] | Andrew Linden: | However I don't know what those conclusions are. |
| [17:53] | Morgaine Dinova: | How can we ask? |
| [17:53] | Andrew Linden: | Good question. |
| [17:53] | xstorm Radek: | Second Inventory thats the program |
| [17:53] | Latif Khalifa: | its not something done by ll |
| [17:53] | Latif Khalifa: | second inventory is a libomv based project |
| [17:53] | Andrew Linden: | I wonder if anyone affiliated with that project is holding office hours. |
| [17:53] | Morgaine Dinova: | LL owns Xstreet, but LL doesn't own Second Inventory. So how come you're letting Second Inventory set your policy? |
| [17:53] | Arawn Spitteler: | Is thee anything in the Forums? |
| [17:54] | Asterion Coen: | better is to ask the author |
| [17:54] | Charlette Proto: | I'd like Charlette to be able to 'live' beyond and past LL to give me more confidence about investing in the account (my inventory) |
| [17:54] | Andrew Linden: | What is "Second Inventory"? I've never heard of that before |
| [17:54] | Latif Khalifa: | i think they are confused morg |
| [17:54] | Andrew Linden: | is that something LL is doing? |
| [17:54] | Latif Khalifa: | Andrew, no |
| [17:54] | Andrew Linden: | Ah ok. |
| [17:54] | Latif Khalifa: | its something people sell on xstreet |
| [17:54] | Andrew Linden: | "Second Inventory" is some script gadget for... what? |
| [17:54] | Rex Cronon: | maybe if second inventory would have allowed only objects u made to be saved, than nobody would have anything to complain about:) |
| [17:54] | Morgaine Dinova: | Ah, you're confused, kk. Sec.Inv. is a closed proprietary product based on libomv (the old libsecondlife), and sold openly on Xstreet, which is owned by LL. |
| [17:54] | Techwolf Lupindo: | Right now, the way it apears to me, builders/creaters are using some tricks, hacks, and sometimes expolits to copy inventory to there local hard drive as a backup. They are paying good money to this. There is a busness opertunery to LL. Provide a backup service to SL users. LL can even charge for it. |
| [17:55] | Asterion Coen: | andrew that's something that export to another opensim tour SL stuffs. giving you, by the way, the full perm of it, with your name as author |
| [17:55] | Charlette Proto: | not just on xStreet, "Second Inventory" can be bought outside of LL |
| [17:55] | xstorm Radek: | ? |
| [17:55] | Morgaine Dinova: | See the problem now Andrew? |
| [17:56] | Andrew Linden: | Hrm... interesting. Perhaps I should investigate to see about closing some of those tricks, hacks, and exploits. |
| [17:56] | Latif Khalifa: | its running the same code base like lola here :) |
| [17:56] | LoLa Varriale: | I think you mean "it's" or "it is" not "its". Do you experience any effects of global warming there? |
| [17:56] | Asterion Coen: | so, a lot of authors r not that happy about it |
| [17:56] | xstorm Radek: | all i wish to do is save the textures i own and they go back to 2003 thats a big lost if there lost |
| [17:56] | Morgaine Dinova: | They're not trick, hacks, explots. |
| [17:56] | Morgaine Dinova: | It's stuff that is in the viewer, so it's trivial to copy. |
| [17:56] | Andrew Linden: | Ah I see, scraping the visual data. |
| [17:56] | Simon Linden: | AFAIK it's just saving the data that's normally sent to the viewer, right? |
| [17:56] | Morgaine Dinova: | Yep Simon |
| [17:57] | Yann Dufaux: | interesting Andrew :) |
| [17:57] | Latif Khalifa: | Simon, exactly |
| [17:57] | Moon Metty: | welcome back Patty |
| [17:57] | Patty1 Rosca: | ty |
| [17:57] | Rex Cronon: | wb |
| [17:57] | xstorm Radek: | oh assets error i see again |
| [17:57] | Yann Dufaux: | wb Patty |
| [17:57] | Andrew Linden: | Ok, so then the exploitation of that is probably addressable via the DMCA (but remember IANAL). |
| [17:57] | xstorm Radek: | wb love |
| [17:57] | Arawn Spitteler: | So, the data of placement and PrimitiveParams, and TExtures, are salvable? |
| [17:57] | Yann Dufaux: | Andrew i don,t trust second inventory aniway :) |
| [17:58] | Latif Khalifa: | Second Inventory respects permissions, only allows you to backup your own stuff, and that is why its still on XstreetSL |
| [17:58] | Charlette Proto: | trust? Yann |
| [17:58] | Arawn Spitteler: | Which brings us to the tradition of mentioning PRIM_TYPE_TORTURED, as well as PRIM_ROT_GLOBAL and PRIM_ROT_LOCAL |
| [17:58] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: indeed, but the problem isn't the DMCA, it's the fact that it's against the ToS, and therefore unless LL makes things clear, a lot of people may be banned from SL for using what seems to be an approved tool. |
| [17:58] | Rex Cronon: | u don't really need second inventory to savye your object, u can use script for that:) |
| [17:58] | Andrew Linden: | There is really no way anyone can prevent the copying of the visual digital data. |
| [17:58] | Andrew Linden: | There is no technical solution to it, that is. |
| [17:58] | Morgaine Dinova: | Correct |
| [17:59] | Andrew Linden: | Just as there is no technical solution to preventing people from copying digital music. |
| [17:59] | Latif Khalifa: | Well i use it myself to save all my scripts from inv at once so I don't get screwed by http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-553 *again* |
| [17:59] | Morgaine Dinova: | Which is why the issue isn't about the copying, but about whether to use the tool is against the ToS or not. |
| [17:59] | xstorm Radek: | so is it safe to save out textures we have paid for with Second Inventory ? |
| [17:59] | Asterion Coen: | that's why some folks invented the TOS |
| [18:00] | Andrew Linden: | There are legal and social methods, in theory. |
| [18:00] | Yann Dufaux: | Andrew i can send you a note crad? |
| [18:00] | Andrew Linden: | This is how I understand how it would work under the DMCA (but remember IANAL so this is not legal advice or counsel): |
| [18:00] | Yann Dufaux: | let me check if i have |
| [18:01] | Morgaine Dinova: | Sure, but is the ToS going to be enforced and loads of SpotOn3D people banned, or is it OK to use the tool (by ToS), and everything else is governed by DMCA? |
| [18:01] | Andrew Linden: | Er actually, perhaps someone should suggest a scenario that we can talk about. |
| [18:01] | Morgaine Dinova: | Just needs clarification, that's all./ |
| [18:01] | Andrew Linden: | That is, content incorrectly winding up on some alternate SL grid, or OpenSim. |
| [18:01] | Asterion Coen: | it should a rule to determine the limit of the use of those kind of copy stuffs |
| [18:01] | xstorm Radek: | the road textures i had was used in Korea telehub years back |
| [18:01] | Arawn Spitteler: | Andrew is not the Linden to clarify legal issues, or Client Side Issues |
| [18:01] | Asterion Coen: | legal for creator or auhtorized folks, and illegal for others |
| [18:02] | xstorm Radek: | they was a free texture pack from LL at one time |
| [18:02] | Andrew Linden: | Ah, these are the road textures you lost xstorm? |
| [18:02] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: easy scenario number 1: I make a cube, and I put a Linden texture into it. I export it to SpotOn3D. Is LL going to ban me from SL for illegally exporting their copyrighted texture and for flagrant disobeying the ToS? |
| [18:02] | xstorm Radek: | it was in the LL Sandbox in olive at one time i think |
| [18:03] | Arawn Spitteler: | How long have they been lost? Inventory losses are often reversed. |
| [18:03] | Andrew Linden: | Ok let us consider Morgaine's scenario... |
| [18:03] | xstorm Radek: | but i no longer can find the LL sandbox any more |
| [18:03] | xstorm Radek: | i have no clue what happen to it |
| [18:03] | Arawn Spitteler recalls a horsevfarm in Olive, and a Sandbox in Mauve | |
| [18:04] | xstorm Radek: | i was sick for two years |
| [18:04] | Andrew Linden: | What Linden texture would you be using I wonder? Would Linden make textures that it wanted to be copyright crazy about? I doubt it. |
| [18:04] | Andrew Linden: | So perhaps that scenario is flawed. |
| [18:04] | xstorm Radek: | they was just half roads |
| [18:04] | Andrew Linden: | Could someone suggest another? Or modify that one so that the texture is not uploaded by Linden? |
| [18:05] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: I doubt it too. But you have copyright on your textures, and copying them to another grid is copyright infingement. While I doubt you would call on the DMCA, you might ban me for disobeying the ToS. How can I be sure? |
| [18:05] | Andrew Linden: | xstorm, that was a texture you recieved from a Linden or was "created by" a Linden? |
| [18:05] | Andrew Linden: | Good point Morgaine, I think people retain copyright unless they specify otherwise. |
| [18:05] | xstorm Radek: | and they was in a free texture pack a long time back in a 2003 |
| [18:05] | Morgaine Dinova: | Yep |
| [18:05] | Rex Cronon: | what happens if sombody copies all the free thing to another grid? |
| [18:06] | Andrew Linden: | So if LL uploaded a texture then LL would hold copyright. However I doubt LL would litigate over textures it uploaded and distributed. |
| [18:06] | Charlette Proto: | how about if I want to instantiate Charlette on an OpenSim and want to save time so I copy the shape I've made in Second Life™ to the new grid |
| [18:06] | Andrew Linden: | Hrm... ok lets follo that scenario... |
| [18:06] | Moon Metty: | some sculpties are sold as "free to use but not for resale" |
| [18:06] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: maintaining the copyright is fine. All that's needed is to say that while you retain the copyright, the textures are free to copy to other grids. |
| [18:06] | xstorm Radek: | they did not have any linden name on it |
| [18:06] | Andrew Linden: | (woops I just realized it is past 18:00 and I'm going to have to go soon) |
| [18:07] | xstorm Radek: | but it was in the linden sandbox |
| [18:07] | Asterion Coen: | andrew, your watch is wrong, it's 05:30 |
| [18:07] | Asterion Coen: | :) |
| [18:07] | Yann Dufaux: | LOL Andrew blame second life, and interesting devlopement :p |
| [18:07] | Techwolf Lupindo: | LL does not provide a backup. Market forces see a gap and Second Inventory is created outside of LL control. It just so happend SI can be use to move contect to other grids. If LL provided a backup server that it controled, there would no need for SI and the problem of moving content would beeen avoided. |
| [18:07] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: but that alone is not enough. You also need to say that I will not be banned for disobeying the ToS, which clearly says it's not allowed. |
| [18:07] | Andrew Linden: | I think the way Morgain's scenario might unfold would be... LL would have to file a DMCA takedown on the content in the other grid |
| [18:07] | xstorm Radek: | its 6:07 |
| [18:07] | Patty1 Rosca: | its 1807 |
| [18:07] | Arawn Spitteler huriedly mentions SVC-22, SVC-93 and SVC-2931, as well as Sheep | |
| [18:07] | Asterion Coen: | 1730 |
| [18:07] | Yann Dufaux: | only 19;07 in quebec :P |
| [18:07] | Moon Metty: | is it 1970 yet? |
| [18:07] | Andrew Linden: | I don't see how Morgaine would be identified at the culprit in this case |
| [18:07] | Asterion Coen: | rahhhh |
| [18:08] | Yann Dufaux gave you second invetory (discution). | |
| [18:08] | Rex Cronon: | what if somebody copies this, and starts to sell it |
| [18:08] | Moon Metty: | hey thank you Andrew and Simon |
| [18:08] | Asterion Coen: | let me rezz a cave to put xtorm and patty in |
| [18:08] | Patty1 Rosca: | lol' |
| [18:08] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: in my scenario, I'm not doing it in secret. In fact, this is why I'm raising the question. I don't want to be engaged in under the counter activities. |
| [18:08] | Rex Cronon: | talking about ufo above |
| [18:08] | Moon Metty: | you're missing a shoe Patty |
| [18:09] | Patty1 Rosca: | inventory ate it |
| [18:09] | Moon Metty: | :\ |
| [18:09] | Simon Linden: | Thanks all for coming ... I didn't add much today, but it was an interesting conversation |
| [18:09] | Charlette Proto: | Patty is a noob with one shoe |
| [18:09] | Moon Metty: | it must have been hungry then |
| [18:09] | Charlette Proto: | thanks everyone |
| [18:09] | Morgaine Dinova: | Patty can't be a noob, there's no box on her head. ;-) |
| [18:09] | Andrew Linden: | That is tough Morgaine. I suspect LL would ask you to stop (or change the TOS so that it was clearly against the rules) before trying to ban you from SL over it. |
| [18:09] | xstorm Radek: | patty has been around longer then you *GIGGLES* :)Andrew Linden 00:37, 16 May 2009 (UTC) |
| [18:09] | Simon Linden: | didn't notice the UFOs arrivig |
| [18:09] | Patty1 Rosca: | nice ufo |
| [18:10] | Asterion Coen: | thx andrew, simon, the techcocal staff, the artists, and the meteo for that nice meeting :) |
| [18:10] | xstorm Radek: | OMG!! Rex |
| [18:10] | Charlette Proto: | a simpler case; how about if I want to instantiate Charlette on an OpenSim and want to save time so I copy the shape I've made in Second Life™ to the new grid |
| [18:10] | xstorm Radek: | what is that |
| [18:10] | xstorm Radek: | ? |
| [18:10] | Rex Cronon: | an ufo:) |
| [18:10] | Yann Dufaux: | oh i need to make a test after Simon, in the special region :) |
| [18:10] | Moon Metty: | Kona is coming! |
| [18:10] | Asterion Coen: | looks like your flying saucer xtorm :) |
| [18:10] | Simon Linden: | Bye everyone - see you next time |
| [18:10] | Latif Khalifa: | bye simon |
| [18:10] | Rex Cronon: | bye simon |
| [18:10] | Moon Metty: | take me to your dealer! |
| [18:10] | Patty1 Rosca: | free to copy |
| [18:10] | Charlette Proto: | byee Simon |
| [18:11] | Latif Khalifa: | lola say bye |
| [18:11] | LoLa Varriale: | See you later. Say what? |
| [18:11] | Patty1 Rosca: | bye simon |
| [18:11] | xstorm Radek: | ok no one remembers 2003 ? |
| [18:11] | Asterion Coen: | by the way, here your taxe for prohibed parking lot :) |
| [18:11] | Morgaine Dinova: | Charlette: yep, that's scenario #2 ... the most basic part of moving yourself to another grid, your shape and skin. |
| [18:11] | xstorm Radek: | or did it not happen |
| [18:11] | Patty1 Rosca: | i do |
| [18:11] | Simon Linden: | Cool Rex, thanks! |
| [18:11] | xstorm Radek: | was there not a LL sandbox there or not |
| [18:11] | Rex Cronon: | xstrom, u r ligth wave |
| [18:11] | Morgaine Dinova: | Love the "Powacell" :-)) |
| [18:11] | Whump's small pressurized rover - physic: Please, put the rover to it's base after you ride. | |
| [18:11] | xstorm Radek: | or have i gone crazy ? |
| [18:11] | Asterion Coen: | ahh |
| [18:12] | Andrew Linden: | ack, I'm going to have to run |
| [18:12] | Patty1 Rosca: | *GIGGLES*:)Andrew Linden 00:37, 16 May 2009 (UTC) |
| [18:12] | Patty1 Rosca: | *GIGGLES* :)Andrew Linden 00:37, 16 May 2009 (UTC) aster |
| [18:12] | Charlette Proto: | but is there any restriction on behalf of LL as to what we created within Second Life™ as to not being used outside? |
| [18:12] | Asterion Coen: | :) |
| [18:12] | Whump's small pressurized rover - physic: Please, put the rover to it's base after you ride. | |
| [18:12] | Andrew Linden: | I |
| [18:12] | Whump's small pressurized rover - physic: Please, put the rover to it's base after you ride. | |
| [18:12] | Simon Linden: | I'm also going ... bye again |
| [18:12] | Whump's small pressurized rover - physic: Please, put the rover to it's base after you ride. | |
| [18:12] | Arawn Spitteler: | Yes, there was a sandbox in Olive, but it was removed when you went crazy |
| [18:12] | Andrew Linden: | I've got to be somewhere within the hour. |
| [18:12] | Whump's small pressurized rover - physic: Please, put the rover to it's base after you ride. | |
| [18:12] | Moon Metty: | bye! |
| [18:12] | Asterion Coen: | have fun andrew :) |
| [18:12] | Patty1 Rosca: | aw aster needs a 2 seater |
| [18:12] | xstorm Radek: | by Andrew |
| [18:12] | Rex Cronon: | bye andrew |
| [18:12] | Charlette Proto: | byee Andrew see you next week |