User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 05 05

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[10:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Arletta, I hope you're well come. This is Andrew's Office Hour, if he shows, I think
[10:56]	Arletta Martian:	oh good THATS what i was trying to come to
[10:56]	Moon Metty:	hehe ok
[10:56]	Moon Metty:	heySimon :)
[10:56]	Arletta Martian:	i havent been here before
[10:56]	Uni Ninetails:	whatever reason would he have for hiding?
[10:56]	Simon Linden:	He should be here, but we're both double-booked for an 11:00 meeting
[10:56]	Uni Ninetails:	hihi
[10:56]	Harleen Gretzky:	what happens when you try to start a conference chat?
[10:56]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[10:56]	Harleen Gretzky:	Hi Simon
[10:57]	Arletta Martian:	hi simon
[10:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't get the option.
[10:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Simon
[10:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	The 1.23.buggy needs its own hour
[10:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	and then some
[10:58]	Arletta Martian:	brb
[10:58]	Moon Metty:	a whole hour for 1.23?
[10:58]	Harleen Gretzky:	Only works on folders inside your calling cards folder
[10:58]	Moon Metty:	it takes half an hour to read the release notes alone
[10:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Harleen's Version lets her start conference chats to her Calling Card Folder, so the bugs are buggy
[10:59]	Moon Metty:	hi Qie :)
[10:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	I used to send to my entire folder
[10:59]	Qie Niangao:	Hi Moon, ev'rybody
[10:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Qie
[10:59]	Uni Ninetails:	hihi
[10:59]	Harleen Gretzky:	Thought they took that at in like 1.19
[10:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've been using in 1.22
[11:00]	Harleen Gretzky:	Didn't realize you were talking about the whole folder before
[11:00]	Arletta Martian:	bak
[11:00]	Uni Ninetails:	ow...
[11:00]	Moon Metty:	hi Andrew :)
[11:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	1.23 has other issues, that shouldn't reach 1.23.1, like its refusal to keep setitngs, and needing to learn about Camera Follow Angle
[11:01]	Uni Ninetails:	/jhi andrew
[11:01]	Arletta Martian:	hi andrew
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	hello everyone
[11:01]	Siobhan McCallen:	hi andrew
[11:01]	Harleen Gretzky:	Hi Andrew
[11:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Andrew
[11:01]	Siobhan McCallen:	hi simon
[11:01]	xstorm Radek:	hi every one :-)
[11:01]	Siobhan McCallen:	and everyone!
[11:01]	xstorm Radek:	if i bump some one sory
[11:01]	xstorm Radek:	can not see any one yet
[11:02]	Arawn Spitteler hastily mentions SVC-22, SVC-93 and SVC-2931, before anyone forgets, or gets organized: Any announcements?
[11:02]	Harleen Gretzky:	You're right still exists on 1.22
[11:02]	xstorm Radek:	says the SL server is lagging
[11:02]	Siobhan McCallen:	too many sheep
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Announcements...
[11:03]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Sheep? Where? :-)
[11:03]	Andrew Linden dregs through his memory
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	I think that's a new record for getting SVC-22 into the meeting
[11:03]	Siobhan McCallen:	there sheep
[11:03]	xstorm Radek:	OMG!! Techwolf killed some one
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler likes to keep his hand in: Even before the Sheep were mentionedd?
[11:03]	Techwolf Lupindo grins
[11:04]	Siobhan McCallen:	LED Scuba Sheep
[11:04]	Techwolf Lupindo look up 22
[11:04]	Uni Ninetails:	lol
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	For those who don't know... SVC-22 is a region crossing bug. SVC-93 is an LSL child-prim rotation bug, and SVC-2931... I have to refresh my memory but I think it is something to do with sitting avatars
[11:05]	Siobhan McCallen:	Maggie asked me to bring up http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4136
[11:05]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Sitting avarts I like to get.
[11:05]	Stev Spiegel:	sitting ducks?
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	SVC-22 is where objects that cross region boundaries are treated as not vehicles.
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	I don't have many announcements... got any Simon?
[11:05]	Uni Ninetails:	4136 that sounds like a bot selecting stuff?
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler'll freeze a moment, while he tries to view the internet.
[11:06]	xstorm Radek:	hi Rex
[11:06]	Siobhan McCallen:	drive a vehicle into Velox. it will stop dead
[11:06]	Moon Metty:	hi Rex, Hari
[11:06]	xstorm Radek:	hi Hari
[11:06]	Uni Ninetails:	any campers in that area?
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi xstorm, moon
[11:06]	Hari Linden:	hi
[11:06]	xstorm Radek:	do not worry we will not bite you
[11:06]	Siobhan McCallen:	I think someone reported 13 in a shop in one corner
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	Let's see ... we're in the middle of rolling out 1.26.3 to half the grid
[11:07]	Siobhan McCallen:	moved up to 3500m
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	we have a new linden here?
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right, the roll was to start on Tuesday again.
[11:07]	Siobhan McCallen:	Hello Hari!
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, welcome Hari.
[11:07]	Uni Ninetails:	hey Hari
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	hi there
[11:07]	Yuu Nakamichi:	Hello :)
[11:07]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Is this place teh new or old server version?
[11:07]	Hari Linden:	hi all
[11:08]	Uni Ninetails:	.3
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	This should be new ... I think it's on the pilot region list, which means it gets the very first updates
[11:08]	Siobhan McCallen:	1.26.2, says at the top
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Denby is usually included in the initial pilot roll, so it has been running server-1.26.3 since last week.
[11:08]	Siobhan McCallen:	oh, nvm
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	1.26.3.118673
[11:09]	Siobhan McCallen remembers to double-clutch when changing gears at this table
[11:09]	Yuu Nakamichi:	there will be a point 4 I have heard
[11:09]	Moon Metty:	Andrew, was it easy to fix https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4139 ?
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	Yes, there will be a 1.26.4
[11:09]	Techwolf Lupindo:	This table need more empty chairs. :-)
[11:10]	Simon Linden:	It also needs to make the empty chair noticable by being a different color
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-4139 was pretty hard to track down, but the final fix was pretty easy.
[11:10]	Moon Metty:	alright :)
[11:10]	Rex Cronon:	the empty chair require bling:)
[11:10]	xstorm Radek:	thats not hard to do
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	hrm...
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	It also should get rid of the control events, as they suck up script time and bandwidth
[11:11]	xstorm Radek:	have it a ontouch color switch
[11:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Tracking it down is often the hard part. SVC-93 will be easy, once we track down why the code is unreadable
[11:11]	Yuu Nakamichi:	what was it andrew?
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Some code was changed to fix an permissions exploit and there was a bug in that cleanup -- a line ommitted.
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	When you rez something the simulator has to store the operation in a queu and go get the asset
[11:13]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I see.
[11:13]	xstorm Radek:	hi Morgain :-)
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Was it fixed on all sims, or just where it appeared?
[11:13]	Uni Ninetails:	olla
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	when it arrives it then builds it, but upon arrival there was a little bit of info that was not getting updated (the inventory perms changes)
[11:13]	Morgaine Dinova joins and waves quietly
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	when you give someone an inventory item the asset still has you as the owner, so when they rez it there is an owership change, and when ownership changes then the permissions have to be set for "next owner"
[11:14]	xstorm Radek:	any way to have some thing like a buffer for a preloader ?
[11:14]	Rex Cronon waves back
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	but there was a bug where CreatorA could give to ClientB, who then rezzed, derezzed, returned to CreatorA, who then changed perms in inventory and gave back... the asset was last owned by ClientB but the next-owner-perms has been changed
[11:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is there a jira for pre-loaded objects? I may have filed two already, but can't keep them straight
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	sigh... you can see how complicated permissions are to get working exactly right. There are a lot of corner cases that need to be handled.
[11:16]	Moon Metty:	yes, the bug caused a snowball effect
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	My experience has been: if I fix a permissions bug then I introduce a new one.
[11:16]	Simon Linden:	Arawn - I don't know about specific jiras but it's a known problem and area that needs work
[11:17]	Simon Linden:	I did that exact thing twice with the 1.26 server - fixed two, made two
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	guess what the topic of the awg discussion wa? permission:)
[11:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: simplify :-) It's not going to work across interop if the rights are not easily implementable by third parties.
[11:17]	xstorm Radek:	data mirroring ?
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	We have an LL developer who has been working on some unit-tests for permissions -- code that tests the permissions functions.
[11:18]	Rex Cronon:	something like this: http://www.kcoyle.net/drm_basics3.html
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	It isn't a complete set of tests, but it is a start.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Meanwhile, I think some of the fundamental C++ code of permissions needs some cleanup -- new base classes and code moved around, so that we can unit test the rest of it
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	because some of the misc bits (such as permissions before prim linking) is not stored in the permissions class, but lives outside in a different class
[11:19]	Stev Spiegel:	(very interesting Rex... REL...)
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	so all that needs to be moved together -- I've been thinking about how to do that.
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	yes is interesting
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler sees Rex's hat as till a turbine, today
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	But... I'm now about 10 projects deep
[11:20]	Moon Metty:	:)
[11:20]	Yann Dufaux:	ah, ils seront obliger de placer leur site en heya, sorry for this interupt
[11:20]	Stev Spiegel:	SL has become entangled in property rights, not permissions maybe...
[11:20]	Arawn Spitteler'd get confused one project deep
[11:20]	Yann Dufaux:	hello simon :)
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	u can pick on my hat from now until the end of days, there is nothing that i can do make my hat load faster on your compute:(
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	I have a question for everyone - what do you think about SVC-4207?
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	I used to only be able to work on one thing at a time. I can now do about three on a good day.
[11:21]	Stev Spiegel:	:)
[11:21]	xstorm Radek:	*GIGGLES* :)Andrew Linden 00:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
[11:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's SVC-4207?
[11:21]	Moon Metty:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4207
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	Basically, we added a limit to the coaleseced object size, to prevent getting objects that are too big to re-rezz
[11:21]	Techwolf Lupindo reads it.
[11:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: any movement yet on the key missing asset permission: "Grid Transfer Allowed" ? (Philip suggested it was being worked on)
[11:21]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Oh that one.
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	That was a regular problem - take too much, and you can't get it back out of inventory
[11:22]	Uni Ninetails:	that buggers up to builds i keep in my vent
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, I think some LL developers are trying to scope out that problem to see how hard it would be to implement. That is the last I heard.
[11:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk, tnx
[11:22]	Yuu Nakamichi:	what happens to larger coalesced obejcts?
[11:22]	Techwolf Lupindo:	That smack me of the abertary animation playing limit that nealy broke a lot of content.
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	I'll let Simon talk about https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4207
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	The choice is to have this annoying limit, or crank it up and let people sometimes take stuff they can't re-rez (which makes 'em very unhappy too)
[11:23]	Stev Spiegel:	(one k is a nice number...)
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	it's really hard to predict what won't re-rez ... it's a combination of prim count, complexity and sim performance
[11:24]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I've not done large builds. The the groups that got me started on SL has a private sim and they finished up a large build a few months ago and needed a way to back it up. So they colo a 2,000 prim object. It was the new hotel.
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	how about u let people rezz any size if is an avatar not an script
[11:24]	Moon Metty:	there are several problems with coalesced objects, some of them can cause loss of items
[11:24]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The=But
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	"any size" Rex says
[11:25]	Yuu Nakamichi:	right, and larger COs are basically lost?
[11:25]	Rex Cronon:	with scripts u might have problems
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	When it fails to rez, it does so because it's taking a _long_ time to do it ... currently the limit is 15 seconds
[11:25]	Harleen Gretzky:	I actually don't understand some of teh concerns, like one poster about archiving his build says he cannot take it in pieces
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	So effectively that means 15k max, including all the scripts (which are currently effectively unlimited).
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	That's 15 seconds of full region freeze, no updates, nothing. Much longer and connections really start to break
[11:25]	Rex Cronon:	can ' u rezz in steps
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	can't *
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so parse the asset gradually... bits at a time. (I knew that suggestion was coming)
[11:26]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Just allow sim/parcel owners do huge lag production rez/de-rez/
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	Well, it comes down to the fact that the current functionality doesn't do what people want - take a large amount into inventory, and re-rez it later exactly the same way
[11:26]	Techwolf Lupindo:	production=producting.
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	u could also first rezz the objects without starting the scripts
[11:26]	Harleen Gretzky:	Then you can't hire someone
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	That does need to be improved
[11:27]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Harleen, good point.
[11:27]	Techwolf Lupindo:	hjavn't though of that one.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, we came up with that idea Techwolf -- allow parcel owners to rez larger objects on their parcel.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Weren't we going to do that Simon?
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	We do allow some extra rez time if you're the sim or parcel owner
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	It's in 1.26.3
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Ah ok we did already.
[11:28]	Harleen Gretzky:	And 1.23 has restore to last position so you can actually put it back in the same position on another sim or teh same sim
[11:28]	Techwolf Lupindo:	If rezzing a large build grinds the sim to a halt, then it needs to be buffered somehow.
[11:28]	Tammy Nowotny:	1hello
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Fiddling with the object load code is dangerous and would require a lot fo work/testing. So we couldn't get that done in the server-1.26.3 and .4 timeframe.
[11:29]	Moon Metty:	good point Tech
[11:29]	Rex Cronon:	sinde coallesced objects are made of individual objects u could rezz them oe at atime
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Right Techwolf. Now suppose someone derezzed a bowl full of physical balls and we rezzed that in pieces...
[11:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Most things are a tradeoff, but loss of items isn't negociable, ever. That's going to be fixed presumably.
[11:29]	Siobhan McCallen:	I've seen rezzing a 3000-prim starship crash a sim.
[11:29]	Rex Cronon:	since*
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Suppose we rezzed the balls first and the bowl last.
[11:29]	Uni Ninetails:	ohh i know that one
[11:30]	Simon Linden:	yeah, it really just can't happen all in the same frame, but Andrew makes a good point - rez some physical objects before you have the floor, and it will get exciting
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Ok fine, so you just keep the balls static until the asset is completely done rezzing right?
[11:30]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Rez items first, then turn on the scripts and physics so it all triggers at once.
[11:30]	Simon Linden:	Plus don't run scripts until everything is there
[11:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	What happens, when a Coalesced is placed in an object inventory?
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	What we have here is some "feature creep" in the changes required to handle all types of assets in order to make the change.
[11:31]	Yuu Nakamichi:	yeah
[11:31]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I see your point
[11:31]	Siobhan McCallen:	we're already having trouble with race conditions in rezzing. svc-22 is an example of race conditions of that sort.
[11:32]	Siobhan McCallen:	one piece getting rezzed before the agent is present, and the intervening lag taking too long. synchronization of the pieces is going to be a problem.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	It could be done, but it becomes a large project and cannot be included in server-1.26.3 or server-1.27, but we've got to move a bunch of stuff from the mainland soon.
[11:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	That's because Objects aren't labeled, as sat, when crossing sim boundaries, and their vehicle license has to race in too late
[11:32]	xstorm Radek:	thats seems like what i was talking about when turning off scripts for teleport and having them turn back on if needed when a person gets to the place they have teleport too
[11:33]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Because of the FORCED move of huge mainland parcels, don't put in any limits untill after the FORCED moves.
[11:33]	Simon Linden:	True ... I do think the solution is to be able to spread the rezzing over a bunch of frames, but it's not a small change
[11:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	I suggest "coallesced" be removed entirely, and the rudiments of hierarchical objects be added instead. :-) After all, you only need the coallesced concept because of lack of object hierarchy.
[11:33]	xstorm Radek:	in the long run doing that will help
[11:33]	Simon Linden:	A similar problem happens with TP arrivals -- the region hiccups while complex attachments get rezzed and added to the world
[11:33]	Tammy Nowotny:	I think more than 4% of the active mainland landowners will want to be on the adult area of the grid
[11:33]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[11:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've a coalesced object, where the base is static, and the top is physical
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	Well, the problem was we have some other bugs that will allow you to actually loose your content (failed rez deletes no-copy inv item).
[11:34]	xstorm Radek:	eeeeepppp
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	So the scenario was... people take huge swaths of stuff into inventory, try to rez, and lose everything.
[11:34]	Tammy Nowotny:	coalesced objects wold be more usful if you cd rezz things on the ground more precisely
[11:34]	Qie Niangao:	well... possibly the move from sim to sim suffers by going through inventory en route. But doing otherwise might be a one-off solution.
[11:34]	Siobhan McCallen:	considering the rules have not yet been solidly established, I think that 4% figure is optimistic at best
[11:34]	xstorm Radek:	lost content is verry bad
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	I've got a fix for those no-copy inv item loss... should be in server-1.26.4
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	... which is why we added that limit, causing the backlash
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Lost X-Rated Content is worse, being embarassing to ask for
[11:35]	Tammy Nowotny:	right now the rezz point is quasi-random... can be just about anywhere in about a 10-m or more radius
[11:35]	xstorm Radek:	? X rated
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, sounds like you know all about it ;-) What did you lose?
[11:35]	Rex Cronon:	XXX
[11:35]	xstorm Radek:	i do not care about that stuff
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler wouldn't be embarrassed
[11:36]	Rex Cronon:	some people care
[11:36]	xstorm Radek:	and the companys i work for will fire you if people have that
[11:36]	Tammy Nowotny:	life is too short to nbe embarrassed
[11:36]	Yuu Nakamichi:	would object hierarchy provide a better solution for large rezzing?
[11:36]	Uni Ninetails:	cant fire me im my own boss "your fired" waii wahhhh?!
[11:37]	xstorm Radek:	*GIGGLES* :)Andrew Linden 00:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
[11:37]	Yuu Nakamichi:	picking up on Morg's point
[11:37]	Siobhan McCallen refrains from being snarky.
[11:37]	Headphone (Sm) whispers: Playing...
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	Object Heierarchy; is there a roadmap published anywhere? The BlackBox thinks it's a solution for SVC-93, but that's backwards
[11:38]	xstorm Radek:	i still think SL needs a built in way to backup inventory to stop lost and it can cut down on server problems
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Yuu, hierarchy would help with lots of stuff -- don't think it would help rezzing large assets much though.
[11:38]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I would have prefer a folder instead of a single object when stuff gets returned to me. Like to have a choice of colo object or folder when pickup up large builds. Also like to rez folders too. :-)
[11:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	Basic bug would still be there, and we'd simply lose chunks of heierarchical builds
[11:39]	Yuu Nakamichi:	right
[11:39]	Uni Ninetails:	id like to right click on a folder and "place content in prim"
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah xstorm. People have pointed out that there is a market opportunity there. If Second Inventory is able to find business backing up inv items, then LL is missing a ball there.
[11:39]	xstorm Radek:	back it up on the users raiddrive ?
[11:39]	Siobhan McCallen:	oh, geez...we're not going to start building in VB, are we?
[11:39]	Rex Cronon:	there is zip file on our harddrive that contains all the inventory. is the viewer ever reading that??
[11:40]	Simon Linden:	Uni - that would be interesting. Also the reverse - select the large build, and "Take to new folder", but get individual items instead of one huge coalesed object
[11:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: it would help there in the sense that, since hierarchical objects could be of any size and complexity, the mechanism for rezzing them would necessarily need to be step-at-a-time (hence not lock the sim). It doesn't provide a solution, but it makes you face the problem. :-)
[11:40]	Uni Ninetails:	nod nods
[11:40]	Moon Metty:	sounds good Simon
[11:40]	Uni Ninetails:	kinda like add to compresed folder... i like to archive ld work and tetures
[11:40]	Yuu Nakamichi:	folders as rudimetary hierarchies? :)
[11:41]	Uni Ninetails:	*old
[11:41]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure it needs to be a really hierarchy as opposed to a group or list of objects
[11:41]	Stev Spiegel:	(back to file structure again)
[11:41]	Simon Linden:	(with the info to put them back together again)
[11:41]	Rex Cronon:	so is that zip file ever read by the viewer?
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	For lot no-copies, what if the inventory folder remembered the UUID? It might also be a way to call back wanderig baloons
[11:41]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Severl avatar and script maker i've chated too would love to a an inventory CVS system.
[11:42]	Techwolf Lupindo:	to have
[11:42]	Siobhan McCallen:	I hear that
[11:42]	Yuu Nakamichi:	yeah tech :)
[11:42]	Yuu Nakamichi:	mercurial for SL? :)
[11:42]	Uni Ninetails:	perhas a stupid question, but what is the reason we cannot put a folder into a prim?
[11:42]	Siobhan McCallen:	subversion
[11:43]	Rex Cronon:	it doesn't have a file syste. i guess:)
[11:43]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I like to hear the answer to that Uni.
[11:43]	Uni Ninetails:	its somthing ive always assmed as never to be implemtented due to dark linden lore.
[11:43]	Simon Linden:	The folders are really part of the inventory organization, and not a regular asset like an object, script, landmark, etc
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	I don't really know the details about them, but the folders aren't regular assets and thus can't be moved aroudn outside of inventory itself
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	u could put a link to an actually folder in the inventory
[11:44]	Siobhan McCallen:	prims don't have inventory management
[11:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: hierarchical objects would also force you to handle atomicity, so if the rez (or the derez into inventory) failed part way, the whole thing would fail because the top of the tree (done last) would not be transferred.
[11:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, Inventory Management for Prims ahsn't been implemented yet?
[11:45]	xstorm Radek:	i have seen a inventory backup system on xstreet
[11:45]	Uni Ninetails:	hmmm its just it seems to be common practice to box stuff into prims for storage and reduction of inventory. perhaps a system to archive inventroy items removing the need to use prims?
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	... and if we're going to get into inventory wish lists, I'd really like references so I can have multiple links to the same no-copy object
[11:45]	Uni Ninetails:	that arent made by you.
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	Would make outfits much better
[11:45]	xstorm Radek:	can not some thing like that get built in ?
[11:45]	Yuu Nakamichi:	oh yes
[11:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	So get hierarchical objects done and a lot of corner cases like coallesced disappear.
[11:45]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I hate the number of dupes I need to keep
[11:45]	Uni Ninetails:	outfit shortcuts for the love of god
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	xstorm - sure, with enough time and money :)
[11:46]	Moon Metty:	yes, shortcuts ...
[11:46]	Tammy Nowotny:	I wd settle for just something like the Open Enclisong folder feature on MacOS and Windows
[11:46]	Uni Ninetails:	pleaaasseeee.... *cries
[11:46]	xstorm Radek:	good :-)
[11:46]	Rex Cronon:	how about being ble to search the invenory for dupliates:)
[11:46]	Yuu Nakamichi:	indeed rex
[11:46]	Rex Cronon:	cuplicates*
[11:46]	Yuu Nakamichi:	search and clean dupes
[11:46]	Rex Cronon:	duplicates*
[11:46]	Yuu Nakamichi:	by UUID
[11:46]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I second Rex.
[11:46]	xstorm Radek:	pay the teen grid half them young people are damn smart
[11:46]	Uni Ninetails:	thirded
[11:46]	Rex Cronon:	i was thinkingg by name
[11:47]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I could reduce my inventory from 16K to less then 10K.
[11:47]	Xugu Madison would love to be able to sell/deliver folders
[11:47]	Siobhan McCallen:	by uuid wouldn't work. correct me if I 'm wrong, but don't two instances of the same object, even if they're duplicates, have different UUIDs?
[11:47]	Qie Niangao:	for that matter... an Inventory window with the Properties info as sortable columns
[11:47]	Yuu Nakamichi:	yup, scripts at least
[11:48]	Siobhan McCallen:	notecards, too. that's why we can't store to them as data devices
[11:48]	xstorm Radek:	yes that will help to
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	u can do something similar to folders if u r using notecard xugu
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	each inventory item has a unique "inventory_id"
[11:48]	Stev Spiegel:	(UNIX ls-l)
[11:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sort windows etc are client issues, let the community sort them out.
[11:49]	Simon Linden:	Well, that's enough ideas to keep busy for a while
[11:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[11:49]	Moon Metty:	lol
[11:49]	Techwolf Lupindo:	lol
[11:49]	Rex Cronon:	like yeasr:)
[11:49]	Stev Spiegel:	very stimulating
[11:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Poor Lindens :P
[11:49]	Siobhan McCallen:	it would be nice if someone checked out the physics in Velox.
[11:49]	xstorm Radek:	i had over 100 k inventory im putting it all in to a mess of box and numbering them some what
[11:49]	Siobhan McCallen:	It's messing up the road and the railroad.
[11:50]	Siobhan McCallen:	just passing that on from Maggie.
[11:50]	Simon Linden:	Siobhan - what's happenign?
[11:50]	Siobhan McCallen:	that's maggie's jira: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4136
[11:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: gotta rope the FOSS dev community into it, there really is no other way, unless you intend to employ warehouses full of devs. :-) It's loss of control, but there is no real alternative.
[11:50]	Siobhan McCallen:	Drive a physical vehicle into that sim, and it stops.
[11:50]	Arawn Spitteler:	Wasn't that just fixed?
[11:50]	Siobhan McCallen:	dead.
[11:50]	Siobhan McCallen:	wasn't as of last night.
[11:51]	Siobhan McCallen:	if it was fixed this morning, it's news to me.
[11:51]	Siobhan McCallen:	only way the railroad line was "fixed" was by putting a sawhorse across the rail
[11:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	That's the one where Mole were investigating?
[11:52]	Siobhan McCallen:	don't know details on the investigation. Maggie asked me to pass that along.
[11:52]	Siobhan McCallen:	she's at RL work
[11:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ghosted Perms that ithstood a restart
[11:52]	Tammy Nowotny:	was just reading the JIRA... sounds like a mess
[11:52]	Siobhan McCallen:	many of the landowners there are frustrated.
[11:52]	xstorm Radek:	what happens if when they Rez the item and it hangs some one is to click on it ? will the server make it drop do to the trigger ?
[11:53]	xstorm Radek:	Physics oddly broken in places in Velox mainland region
[11:53]	xstorm Radek:	?
[11:53]	Siobhan McCallen:	no. I've rezzed physical objects and they hang in the air.
[11:53]	Siobhan McCallen:	take them a few meters away toward the border, and they drop
[11:53]	xstorm Radek:	even if some one was to click on it ?
[11:53]	Uni Ninetails:	i tried to suggest it might be camper bots that select all the prim in a rgion thusly screwing physics dunno
[11:53]	Siobhan McCallen:	yes
[11:54]	Skills Hak:	maybe physics interceptors
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	Camperf Bots would show in map
[11:54]	Rex Cronon:	or megaprims
[11:54]	xstorm Radek:	there is a new script out that turns off grav
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, you say you found some collision ghosts that survived a region restart?
[11:54]	Siobhan McCallen:	could be, Uni. There IS a shop that has campers. One person did complain about them. The owner moved them up to 3500m. it's posted in the forum under technical issues
[11:54]	xstorm Radek:	is some one running that in the sim ?
[11:54]	Tammy Nowotny:	wd the bots be selecting all the prims as a means of preventing real people from using the camping chairs?
[11:54]	Twisted Laws:	one way to fix that from server side is don't allow a client to select things if they aren't sending agent updates.
[11:55]	Skills Hak:	but they cant see objects that far away
[11:55]	Skills Hak:	could be phys interceptors in a custom viewer
[11:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	That's just my understanding of the Velox Issue
[11:56]	xstorm Radek:	what is some one has made a no grav script thats running in that sim ?
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	I think the "pinned object" problem is from bots that select and do not deselect. That is one of the 10 projects I mentioned.
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	On the map, I see what might be half a dozen campers
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	Maybe it is 15 projects... more than I can count in my head.
[11:56]	Twisted Laws:	yes, and they don't send agent updates either
[11:56]	Siobhan McCallen:	here's the posting in the forum about it: http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=319208
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... no agent updates? That is unlikely since they would get kicked if they sent none.
[11:57]	Twisted Laws:	no...
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	However, they may send them very infrequently.
[11:57]	Twisted Laws:	it works
[11:57]	Skills Hak:	no it doesnt time out
[11:57]	xstorm Radek:	i hate to think some one has made another type of graygoo griefing too;
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	I normally keep the Away test off.
[11:57]	Uni Ninetails:	urrrg
[11:57]	Skills Hak:	they cumulate and as soon as you enable them you receive all your updates
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... really? I find it hard to believe from what I know about the system, but I'll keep it in mind.
[11:57]	Skills Hak:	i can turn mine off now
[11:58]	Skills Hak:	and i go phantom
[11:58]	Twisted Laws:	yes, same
[11:58]	Skills Hak:	well semi-phantom
[11:58]	Twisted Laws:	can right now
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Skills, do you know exactly with update message they are not sending?
[11:58]	Skills Hak:	not sure but i could look it up
[11:59]	xstorm Radek:	for only one sim to stop it has to be one of two problems server sim data has a error or some one has found a new way to grief a sim
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Skills, send me a link or the message name if you find it. I'm curious.
[11:59]	Skills Hak:	kk
[11:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	On rezzing large colobjects. Can the server get all the objects info into memory first then move then into world? This would allow it to buffer it to keep from griding to a halt, then once all the info is in memory, move/pop/flip a bit/ into world at once like a normal rez?
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	Whats the progress on having vehicles report when they're selected? That shoud still be relevent to racers
[11:59]	Twisted Laws:	msg is _PREHASH_AgentUpdate
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	u mean that as a linden u can' t track everything that a specific avatar is sending/receiving?
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Huh. That is the message I didn't think they could refuse to send. Oh well, maybe I'll investigate if I can find the time.
[12:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Techwolf: taking into memory first won't scale to hierarchical objects, which could be any size.
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	Techwolf... I suspect it is harder than it sounds...
[12:01]	Skills Hak:	AgentUpdate yes
[12:01]	Siobhan McCallen:	and it sounds like a memory nightmare
[12:01]	Yann Dufaux:	geez, sorry just crashed, don't know why lol
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	Suppose you did that on a region that already has a large memory footprint...
[12:01]	Techwolf Lupindo:	You asked for idea. :-)
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	then rezzed a second copy when the first one was halfway done
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	and a third copy...
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	and so on
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	If you're storing temp stuff somewhere then you're going to have to limit it as a resource
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	and you'll need to handle the queue
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	All this is not too surprising
[12:03]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Put somekind of blocker on the avatar that rejects any rezzing commands untill finishe. But I can see where thay may have problems on it own.
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	but I know something you don't know... the object parse/rez code is a little rigid and would have to be cleaned up to handle that
[12:03]	xstorm Radek:	i do know there has been a lot of setting problems and some small errors with some sims like every thing in the sim is missing or has been return to no one i got to see it happen and still no one knows why it happen
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	it can be done, but there is a lot of other stuff to do and we're tight on resources
[12:04]	Qie Niangao:	rez on a completely different, empty "buffer" sim, then copy over to real destination (somehow)
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Uh oh... I need to attend a 12:00 meeting and I'm late.
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	I've got to go everyone.
[12:04]	Stev Spiegel:	(feeling like Andrew is a little overworked...)
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming.
[12:04]	Uni Ninetails:	just a little
[12:04]	Skills Hak:	x)
[12:04]	Moon Metty:	ok, thank you Andrew and Simon :)
[12:04]	Qie Niangao:	thanks, Andrew!
[12:04]	Uni Ninetails:	Thanks :)
[12:04]	Skills Hak:	thanks
[12:04]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[12:04]	Siobhan McCallen:	have a good day, andrew
[12:04]	Moon Metty:	and welcome Hari
[12:05]	xstorm Radek:	Horse Valley sim every thing there had gone missing they had to do a rollback
[12:05]	Hari Linden:	thanks
[12:05]	Moon Metty:	:)
[12:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Andrew :-)
[12:05]	Simon Linden:	I have to run too -- thanks everyone for coming
[12:05]	xstorm Radek:	bye every one
[12:05]	Moon Metty:	bye!
[12:05]	Siobhan McCallen:	thank you, Simon
[12:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Simon :-)
[12:05]	Yuu Nakamichi:	thank you.. andrew, cu
[12:05]	Uni Ninetails:	Take care all have a good day
[12:05]	Tammy Nowotny:	Thanks Simon & Andrew
[12:05]	xstorm Radek:	thank you for the fun
[12:05]	Arawn Spitteler's glad the sims could stay so over
[12:05]	Qie Niangao:	thanks Simon. good to meet you Hari
[12:06]	Twisted Laws:	thanks, bye
[12:06]	xstorm Radek:	glad you do not have a dress on Uni
[12:06]	Hari Linden:	nice chatting with all of you, i'm off as well
[12:06]	xstorm Radek:	*GIGGLES* :)Andrew Linden 00:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
[12:06]	Rex Cronon:	nice meeting u hari. tc
[12:06]	Arawn Spitteler wants a look at Velox
[12:06]	Siobhan McCallen:	I'm going over there too
[12:06]	Techwolf Lupindo whispers: Anyone have a LM to velox?
[12:06]	Moon Metty:	see you later everyone
[12:06]	Qie Niangao:	oh, *Velox*...
[12:06]	Techwolf Lupindo:	anyone have a LM to velox?
[12:07]	Rex Cronon:	bye moon
[12:07]	Qie Niangao:	now that i see it on the map... I've crashed into it a few times! :p
[12:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is that on the maiin railroad line?
[12:07]	xstorm Radek:	i like to see the sim that had no grav
[12:07]	Harleen Gretzky:	http://slurl.com/secondlife/Velox/128/128/2
[12:07]	Arletta Martian:	i didnt know there was a railroad line .. giggle
[12:07]	Arletta Martian:	bye everyone
[12:07]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[12:07]	xstorm Radek:	ty
[12:08]	Yann Dufaux:	hey andrew , how are you?
[12:08]	Yuu Nakamichi:	by simon, tc
[12:08]	Yuu Nakamichi:	bye*