User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 05 07
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Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:
| [17:00] | Simon Linden: | Chat's working, I see :) |
| [17:00] | Moon Metty: | hey Andrew :) |
| [17:00] | Latif Khalifa: | hehe it is :) |
| [17:00] | Latif Khalifa: | hello andrew |
| [17:00] | Andrew Linden: | hello |
| [17:00] | Ardy Lay: | Were you expecting problems with chat? |
| [17:00] | Arawn Spitteler: | Hi, Andrew, is it time to mention SVC-22, SVC-93 or SVC-2931? |
| [17:01] | Simon Linden: | No, I meant for Lola |
| [17:01] | LoLa Varriale: | Are you sure?Oh I see. What do you do in your spare time? |
| [17:01] | Ardy Lay: | Oh |
| [17:01] | Psi Merlin: | Hi Simon, Andrew and Elisha |
| [17:01] | Latif Khalifa: | way too early for SVC-22 lol |
| [17:01] | Ardy Lay: | Hi Lola |
| [17:01] | LoLa Varriale: | Hello there. |
| [17:01] | Elisha Richez: | HEL-LOOOOO =) |
| [17:01] | Elisha Richez: | psi |
| [17:01] | Simon Linden: | I've been looking at ways to wire up ALICE bot engine into the viewer |
| [17:01] | Andrew Linden: | Absolutely Arawn. Good timing. |
| [17:01] | Latif Khalifa: | Simon, its easuer with libomv :) |
| [17:02] | Simon Linden: | yes, but I want a 3d view for the chat bot |
| [17:02] | Latif Khalifa: | hahah |
| [17:02] | Elisha Richez: | lol |
| [17:02] | Moon Metty: | :) |
| [17:02] | Elisha Richez: | i spent like 3 hours talking to that thing once |
| [17:02] | Latif Khalifa: | hehe, i am embarassed to admit, but sometime i get lost too |
| [17:03] | Latif Khalifa: | Andrew, how is you conspiracy to introduce communism to second life going? :P |
| [17:04] | Ardy Lay: | This is almost scary. I am running SL release canditate on Windows 7 release candidate with nvidia pre-release drivers and Norton Internet Security 2009 pre-release test. |
| [17:04] | Arawn Spitteler hopes everyone accepts communism equally, but some are always better than others | |
| [17:04] | Latif Khalifa: | hahaha |
| [17:04] | Moon Metty: | hehe |
| [17:04] | Andrew Linden: | Ardy, I take it you're referring to that jira thread about default permissions. SVC-8049 |
| [17:05] | Ardy Lay: | I was not refering to JIRA |
| [17:05] | Ardy Lay looks | |
| [17:05] | Latif Khalifa: | yeah Andrew, I was joking about JIRA flamewars |
| [17:05] | Andrew Linden: | I'd love to joke about it, but I would suffer if I did. The truth of the matter is there is no conspiracy that I know of. |
| [17:05] | Latif Khalifa: | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8049 |
| [17:05] | Arawn Spitteler: | I don't understand the new Permisions Button, on our edit window content tab, |
| [17:05] | Moon Metty: | booo! we want a conspiracy |
| [17:05] | Morgaine Dinova waves | |
| [17:05] | Latif Khalifa: | oh read that thread for consiparacy stories :) |
| [17:05] | Moon Metty: | hi Morg |
| [17:05] | Latif Khalifa: | hey Morgaine :) |
| [17:06] | Elisha Richez: | as if we don't have enough drama |
| [17:06] | Latif Khalifa: | well drama seems to move over to JIRA these days |
| [17:06] | Elisha Richez: | lol |
| [17:06] | Elisha Richez: | pff |
| [17:06] | Moon Metty: | hi Moundsa :) |
| [17:06] | Morgaine Dinova: | Oh, a new viewer slider, "Drama"? 0-11 of course |
| [17:06] | Ardy Lay: | I would like to suggest that SL client display a message on shutdown that says "This has been a dramatization." |
| [17:06] | Latif Khalifa: | hahaha |
| [17:07] | Latif Khalifa: | Ardy "no actual people or animals were hurt" :D |
| [17:07] | Moundsa Mayo: | Hi Moon, all! |
| [17:07] | Elisha Richez: | hey moundsa : ) |
| [17:07] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | Or tits *she mumbles |
| [17:07] | Moundsa Mayo: | Ahh, bulk has its advantages ... |
| [17:08] | Andrew Linden: | Announcements... |
| [17:08] | Morgaine Dinova: | "No puritans were hurt in the making of this world. Oh wait ....." |
| [17:08] | Andrew Linden: | I just say "Announcements..." with a vain hope that I would have something interesting to announce. |
| [17:08] | Latif Khalifa: | haha |
| [17:08] | Moundsa Mayo: | That's one ... |
| [17:09] | Simon Linden: | Well, 1.23.3 is fully rolled out now |
| [17:09] | Simon Linden: | err, 1.26.3 |
| [17:09] | Andrew Linden: | I've been working on some misc internal tools work that has been piling up while I was on server-1.26.3 emergency bug fix duty. |
| [17:09] | Moon Metty: | and 1.23.1 came out |
| [17:09] | Andrew Linden: | There will definitely be a server-1.26.4 |
| [17:09] | Elisha Richez: | you all fix the skin layer order deal in RC yet? |
| [17:10] | Andrew Linden: | I think I mentioned this already, but there were some "rez a no-copy object and fail to rez --> lose inventory item" bugs that are fixed in 1.26.4, along with a few others. |
| [17:10] | Andrew Linden: | Hrm... skin-layer-order bug? |
| [17:10] | Charlette Proto: | yeah skin is fixed and it works |
| [17:10] | Morgaine Dinova: | Elisha: that's not Andrew's bailiwick |
| [17:10] | Elisha Richez: | cool |
| [17:10] | Simon Linden: | Andrew and I mostly work on server problems, so I don't get into skin at all |
| [17:10] | Andrew Linden: | I haven't heard of that one, but it sounds like a viewer bug... are you sure it is server? |
| [17:10] | Elisha Richez: | nah its viewer...my bad im new |
| [17:10] | Latif Khalifa: | its a viewer bug |
| [17:10] | Morgaine Dinova: | Nyx and BigPapi fixed it, or reverted it anyway |
| [17:10] | Elisha Richez: | kk |
| [17:10] | Elisha Richez: | sryz |
| [17:11] | Simon Linden: | no problem |
| [17:11] | Andrew Linden: | Ok, I'm largely ignorant of current viewer bugs -- I've got too much stuff to keep track of as it is. |
| [17:11] | Moon Metty: | someone reopened the activating gesture bug, but i think it is a mistake |
| [17:11] | Charlette Proto: | has anyone been on Ursula yet - 1.23.0 didn't let me in |
| [17:11] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | you can only get to the infohub to Ursula's west |
| [17:11] | Morgaine Dinova: | Cue the Inside Ursula jokes |
| [17:11] | Charlette Proto: | ah OK I'll try |
| [17:12] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | Three sims to its west, so you cant cam in...eep....to Urulas innards |
| [17:12] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | deeeeep |
| [17:12] | Andrew Linden: | If they re-opened the gesture activation bug perhaps they noticed it on a server-1.26.2 server. The last of those disappeared yesterday or today. |
| [17:12] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | How's that for inside ursula jokes? |
| [17:12] | Moon Metty: | that's what i thought, Andrew |
| [17:13] | Morgaine Dinova: | Bound to come <sigh> |
| [17:13] | Andrew Linden: | Just to outline what I'll be doing over the next month or so... |
| [17:13] | Arawn Spitteler: | What's on Ursula? |
| [17:13] | Andrew Linden: | we've got server-1.27 that is about to branch for preparations of deploy |
| [17:13] | Morgaine Dinova: | Depends on the weather |
| [17:13] | Andrew Linden: | and I'll be helping to get a bunch of already-fixed-but-not-merged bug fixes into that. |
| [17:14] | Andrew Linden: | So I won't be fixing many new bugs... just helping the old ones join the party. |
| [17:14] | Morgaine Dinova: | hehe |
| [17:14] | Charlette Proto: | what is the main feature of 1.27? |
| [17:14] | Latif Khalifa: | anything new & exciting in 1.27? |
| [17:15] | Charlette Proto: | free sex with anyone is supported by 1.27 |
| [17:15] | Andrew Linden: | Yeah, there is something interesting in 1.27. Simon, has LL announced that project yet? The one Kelly was working on? |
| [17:15] | Psi Merlin: | hhtp-in? |
| [17:15] | Simon Linden: | I think it's been on aditi in beta |
| [17:16] | Andrew Linden: | Yeah. Http-in |
| [17:16] | Charlette Proto: | Moundsa disturbingly you are a cloud on 1.23.1 (now) |
| [17:16] | Andrew Linden: | I'm not even sure what it is exactly, I've been too busy to pay attention |
| [17:16] | Moon Metty: | just in time, Rex |
| [17:16] | Moundsa Mayo: | NOt by choice. |
| [17:16] | Rex Cronon: | hi moon |
| [17:16] | Rex Cronon: | hi everybody |
| [17:16] | Andrew Linden: | but I think it is the ability to POST/GET via HTTP to particular objects in SL. Is that right? Anyone know? |
| [17:16] | Rex Cronon: | i just had to download and install the new rc |
| [17:16] | Arawn Spitteler sees Rex's hat as a hat today | |
| [17:16] | Simon Linden: | Hmm, I can see Moundsa fine. |
| [17:16] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hiya Rex! You're early, it's only quarter past :P |
| [17:16] | Latif Khalifa: | Andrew, yes exactly that |
| [17:17] | Charlette Proto: | hehe sry didn't want to intimidate you Moundsa |
| [17:17] | Arawn Spitteler: | Yeah, you can acces SL Objects uysing llHTTPRequest |
| [17:17] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | I was having lots of trouble being a cloud, clothing D/l, and TPing eaerlier |
| [17:17] | Rex Cronon: | lets see how fast can u download and install the viewer:) |
| [17:17] | Rex Cronon: | hi morgaine |
| [17:17] | Andrew Linden: | Yeah, so a new I/O data channel into SL. |
| [17:17] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hehe |
| [17:17] | Andrew Linden: | That's the only big feature I know is in server-1.27 |
| [17:18] | Charlette Proto: | HTTP is a majour change |
| [17:18] | Latif Khalifa: | http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_http_server/beta |
| [17:18] | Rex Cronon: | and i am really glad that my hat shows in its true form:) |
| [17:18] | Andrew Linden: | I'll be fixing bugs slightly differently in 1.27. I'll be checking misc bug fixes directly into that branch |
| [17:18] | Andrew Linden: | so hopefully any new bugs we DO manage to fix will get deployed sooner than they have been |
| [17:18] | Arielson Ghost: | hello lola |
| [17:18] | LoLa Varriale: | Hi there! |
| [17:18] | Andrew Linden: | but I've got a bunch of old bugs fixed that need to go in first. |
| [17:19] | Charlette Proto: | Grip you are kidding! can you please turn off that breathing sound |
| [17:19] | Arielson Ghost: | are you from? |
| [17:19] | Morgaine Dinova: | Oh boy .... |
| [17:19] | Grip Talon: | opps sorry |
| [17:20] | Morgaine Dinova waits to see L ola in action | |
| [17:20] | Andrew Linden: | I'm curious... how many avatars can your SL client's render before you feel the graphics FPS gets too low? |
| [17:20] | Moon Metty: | well, it depends |
| [17:20] | Arielson Ghost: | pleoples. i need work... |
| [17:20] | Charlette Proto: | about 6 prim whores Andrew or 100 noobs |
| [17:21] | Moon Metty: | the number of transparent overlapping textures is a big factor |
| [17:21] | Andrew Linden: | Ignore the simulator lag issue. I'm curious to know what you all think a tolerable number of avatars in a crowd is. |
| [17:21] | Rex Cronon: | those that have both bling and flexies can be quite bad |
| [17:21] | Andrew Linden: | Ah yes, I forgot that not all avatars are created equal. |
| [17:21] | Arielson Ghost: | alguien habla espanhol??? |
| [17:21] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: I've never been below 10 FPS on this nVidia 9800 card. 17-20 FPS now (Linux 1.22.11) |
| [17:21] | Arielson Ghost: | portuguese?? |
| [17:21] | Elisha Richez: | im ok with 40-50 |
| [17:22] | Morgaine Dinova: | 50+ is fine |
| [17:22] | Arielson Ghost: | algm fala portugues aki? |
| [17:22] | Latif Khalifa: | I have a very high end sysem... my gtx-260 nvidia now runs here at 25fps |
| [17:22] | Charlette Proto: | same here Andrew but I spend my time with absolute primwhoreas |
| [17:22] | Ardy Lay: | I am often accused of killing frame rates. |
| [17:22] | Arawn Spitteler: | You might search for Sara Long, Arielson. She's from Portugal |
| [17:22] | Ardy Lay: | I have a quick fix. |
| [17:22] | Charlette Proto: | 15 fps now looking at all of us |
| [17:23] | Arielson Ghost: | i from brazil |
| [17:23] | Charlette Proto: | Win 7 and 9600GT |
| [17:23] | Latif Khalifa: | but most people have trouble with 15 or more avatars |
| [17:23] | Morgaine Dinova: | Unfortunately higher numbers than around 50 at SL Live Music concerts are almost unheard of now. The troubles with group notifications and IM killed off the music event sceene. |
| [17:23] | Andrew Linden: | No hablo Espanol o Portuquese. |
| [17:23] | Grip Talon: | hi Shad! |
| [17:23] | Rex Cronon: | i have below 5fps now:( |
| [17:23] | Arielson Ghost: | =S |
| [17:23] | Moon Metty: | 16 fpf for me, nvidia 7600 |
| [17:23] | Morgaine Dinova: | 17.5 now |
| [17:23] | Charlette Proto: | hehe Morgaine not quite fps problem |
| [17:23] | Moon Metty: | 19 fps now lol |
| [17:24] | Arielson Ghost: | alguien habla espanhol_ |
| [17:24] | Arielson Ghost: | ??? |
| [17:24] | Andrew Linden: | 25 fps, nVidia 8600, linux windowed, with most fancy stuff turned off |
| [17:24] | Sante Klees: | Is this an open meeting? |
| [17:24] | Andrew Linden: | Yes Sante |
| [17:24] | Simon Linden: | yeah, the variation in rendering cost seems to be huge ... does anyone know what the numbers actually are? |
| [17:24] | Psi Merlin: | ~5 Nvidia 6800 |
| [17:24] | Arielson Ghost: | fuck -.-` |
| [17:25] | Morgaine Dinova: | I have everything turned on, 1920x1200 windowed but maximized. Lemme see with all fancy stuff off. |
| [17:25] | Arielson Ghost: | vao tomar no cu |
| [17:25] | Arielson Ghost: | seus filhos de puta |
| [17:25] | Morgaine Dinova: | He just called us a very rude word, by the way |
| [17:25] | Moundsa Mayo: | Portugese cursing. How lovelly. |
| [17:25] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | Puta is whore, I think |
| [17:26] | Morgaine Dinova: | Yes |
| [17:26] | Moundsa Mayo: | Yes |
| [17:26] | Charlette Proto: | 16 fps on Nvidia 9600GT Win7 (64) 1.23.1 everything at max 1280x800 |
| [17:26] | Moundsa Mayo: | filthy sons of whores |
| [17:26] | Simon Linden: | He's gone |
| [17:26] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | Ah, he means me, I'm sure ;-) |
| [17:26] | Andrew Linden: | Ok, I was curious because I was curious about the typical viewer FPS... If we were to boost (magically) the simulator avatar density possibilities the veiwer problems would not help. |
| [17:26] | Arawn Spitteler: | Is there a Portugese Mentor, who could take him someplace? He seems lost |
| [17:26] | Morgaine Dinova: | That looked like an eject not a TP :-) |
| [17:26] | Simon Linden: | Well, he's booted and banned for now |
| [17:26] | Charlette Proto: | figures seem quite consistent across various configs |
| [17:27] | Moundsa Mayo: | A non-contributor. |
| [17:27] | Sante Klees: | I think the problem for avatars is with the user |
| [17:27] | Morgaine Dinova: | After turning everything off, my FPS only rose from 17 to 23 FPS. Odd. |
| [17:27] | Latif Khalifa: | Andrew, yeah I don't think viewer will be able to display 200 avatars even if sim could handle it |
| [17:27] | Charlette Proto: | you are right Andrew, the current state of the avie complexity is the deciding factor |
| [17:27] | Rex Cronon: | could i possibly choose to render everybody as blobss:) |
| [17:28] | Morgaine Dinova: | Not quite folks .... OGP to the recue. |
| [17:28] | Morgaine Dinova: | rescue* |
| [17:28] | Simon Linden: | I'm not sure what the typical bandwidth for AV updates is either, i.e. bytes/sec that everyone uses up |
| [17:28] | Sante Klees: | The only time I've seen a sim maxed out is during a special event for Relay for Life |
| [17:28] | Latif Khalifa: | Simon, updates are cheap |
| [17:28] | Latif Khalifa: | not a bandwith issue |
| [17:28] | Moundsa Mayo: | Deltas only? |
| [17:28] | Andrew Linden: | Well, there is the "imposters" trick. Anyone notice when avatars start showing up as pixelated sprites? (sprite = 2D texture billboard) |
| [17:28] | Simon Linden: | Well, get 100 people being active, and they'll start to add up |
| [17:29] | Ardy Lay: | Yes Andrew |
| [17:29] | Andrew Linden: | I think the imposters feature is an option in the preferences... |
| [17:29] | Sante Klees: | That is good to use with muting |
| [17:29] | Moundsa Mayo: | SUre, and they glide along instead of stepping |
| [17:29] | Rex Cronon: | i don't find theimoster that usefull |
| [17:29] | Charlette Proto: | the imposters have improved for me since 1.23.0 |
| [17:29] | Latif Khalifa: | avatar moving around sends location/animation updates, they're very terse on the wire |
| [17:29] | Ardy Lay: | Pluss the client has a Render Maximum Avatars debug setting of what? 35 by default? |
| [17:29] | Morgaine Dinova: | The idea with OGP is to control everything by caps, and that means controlling what gets sent to you in the event list. So if you want to render only the objects 10m around you, you set up the caps appropriately. Obviously that's not in the code yet, but it's in Zero's handwaving design --- so I assume Andrew that's what you'll be implementing :-) |
| [17:29] | Charlette Proto: | used to see them a lot more in 1.22 |
| [17:29] | Arawn Spitteler: | I have to keep Imposters off, to see others. They came in with Windlight, so the Windlight team could take the blame |
| [17:30] | Andrew Linden: | yeah, if we had subscribable data streams in the simulator that could be shared with multiple avatars then we could probably boost the simulator avatar density by a significant ammount |
| [17:30] | Andrew Linden: | but the render problem still exists |
| [17:31] | Charlette Proto: | I agree the avie rendering is the current bottleneck |
| [17:31] | Ardy Lay: | RenderAvatarMaxVisible |
| [17:31] | Morgaine Dinova: | Sure, but rendering reduction is a wide open area --- we haven't even started, apart from imposters. |
| [17:31] | Moon Metty: | i've been in crowds of 50+ |
| [17:31] | Charlette Proto: | bring back attachment police |
| [17:31] | Latif Khalifa: | lol |
| [17:31] | Moon Metty: | fps was not good, but certainly not a slideshow |
| [17:32] | Rex Cronon: | what do u know. i turned on impostors and now i get 6fps. wow. unbelivable. such an inprovment:) |
| [17:32] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hehe |
| [17:32] | Simon Linden: | Try zooming back a bit .. they might not kick in this close together |
| [17:32] | Moon Metty: | but when i rez a lot of particle emitter, fps goes to below 1, and packet loss to 500% |
| [17:32] | Latif Khalifa: | 500% |
| [17:32] | Latif Khalifa: | ww |
| [17:33] | Latif Khalifa: | wow lol |
| [17:33] | Simon Linden: | That;s a lot of missing packets :) |
| [17:33] | Sante Klees: | Everyone on the other side of the table is an imposter for me right now |
| [17:33] | Moon Metty: | lol yes |
| [17:33] | Rex Cronon: | zooming really helps. no i have 3fps:) |
| [17:33] | Charlette Proto: | packet loss is your connection Moon |
| [17:33] | Andrew Linden: | I think that means you're also loosing other people's packets Moon ;-) |
| [17:33] | Morgaine Dinova: | Well that's what happens when you handle networking in your render loop, lol :-)))))))) |
| [17:33] | Latif Khalifa: | hahaha |
| [17:33] | Simon Linden: | FWIW I've reported that bug with sitting imposters and these chairs. It's low priority, however |
| [17:33] | Charlette Proto: | get ADSL2+ or better to do Second Life™ |
| [17:33] | Moon Metty: | fps went down when i rezzed a few hundred of llsetpos changing objects too |
| [17:33] | Morgaine Dinova: | Fail score on that design, hehe :-) |
| [17:34] | Latif Khalifa: | Morg, I hear the viewer team is hard at work separating network messages into a separate module |
| [17:34] | Morgaine Dinova: | 'bout time :P |
| [17:34] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | (I'm not finding that 'imposter' option) |
| [17:35] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | (Just to have afun look) |
| [17:35] | Charlette Proto: | Tumble look in Edit Prefs Graphics |
| [17:35] | Arawn Spitteler: | Preferences -> Graphics -> Custom |
| [17:35] | Simon Linden: | turn on custom there |
| [17:35] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | Then custom? Ah |
| [17:35] | Andrew Linden: | You need to check the [X] Custom checkbox |
| [17:35] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | (got it, thanks) |
| [17:35] | Sante Klees: | The nicest feature about those imposters is what happens when you mute someone (requires a restart if you enable it now I think) |
| [17:36] | Morgaine Dinova: | It's pretty funny doing something that drops your FPS to 1.0, and then looking at your ping time, and seeing that it's about 1000ms .... hmmm, has the server gone to the moon? :-) |
| [17:36] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | (Oh) |
| [17:36] | Moon Metty: | :) |
| [17:36] | Morgaine Dinova: | *Not* the way to handle comms :P |
| [17:36] | Latif Khalifa: | moon is 1 light second away, so ping time would be at least 2s :D |
| [17:36] | Andrew Linden: | Yeah, the ping time as measured by the SL client depends on the FPS if FPS is too low. |
| [17:37] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hehe |
| [17:37] | Simon Linden: | The server's running full throttle now at 45fps, but there's not much headroom left to keep it there |
| [17:37] | Simon Linden: | Scripts are the worst problem right now |
| [17:37] | Sante Klees: | Agreed |
| [17:38] | Latif Khalifa: | 16ms out of 22ms frame time spent in the script engine :) |
| [17:38] | Charlette Proto: | freebie scripts especially avie scanners give me the shits |
| [17:38] | Grip Talon: | i get the shits from taco bell |
| [17:38] | Latif Khalifa: | but scripts are throttled so they should just get slower as the sim gets more loaded |
| [17:38] | Morgaine Dinova: | You're not meant to *eat* them! |
| [17:38] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | Is htere a tool to be able to find out what kind of lag items make? |
| [17:38] | Charlette Proto: | hehe |
| [17:38] | Elisha Richez: | lol grip |
| [17:38] | Charlette Proto: | sadly no Tumble |
| [17:39] | Simon Linden: | These darn chairs keep showing up as high cost, I gotta fix them someday |
| [17:39] | Andrew Linden: | There is no tool that I know of Tumbleweed, but some people have written LSL scripts that can measure simulator performance well. |
| [17:39] | Moon Metty: | lol Simon |
| [17:39] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | Well, someone told me he could find out what items were the worst |
| [17:39] | Simon Linden: | It's because they do control events - those are costly |
| [17:39] | Andrew Linden: | And they then use these scripts to test the load of other scripts, I think. |
| [17:39] | Sante Klees: | What if sim owners could set limits on items such as scripts and users would get a message stating that they are over the sim's settings? |
| [17:39] | Moon Metty: | or maybe they're just sleeping |
| [17:39] | Andrew Linden: | But it is a very arcane art. It takes some study I think. |
| [17:39] | Latif Khalifa: | TumbleWeed, estate managers can see top scripts on their sims |
| [17:40] | Moundsa Mayo: | Measuring adds load, unless you have a hardware analyzer ... |
| [17:40] | Simon Linden: | Latif, Shad, Grip, Psi & Elisha are appearing on the list (probably others too) so there's a good attachment load |
| [17:40] | Latif Khalifa: | us, mere mortals, cannot |
| [17:40] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | Hmmm, well, someone said he could do it not on his land...oh well |
| [17:40] | Arawn Spitteler: | If scripts ever are throttled, it's better to let other estate owners do it first, before Linden LAbs |
| [17:40] | Latif Khalifa: | Simon, its probably my mystitool, its not exactl light :) |
| [17:40] | Elisha Richez: | i was told ARC is only beta and unreliable measurement |
| [17:41] | Grip Talon: | yes i have a large load |
| [17:41] | Simon Linden: | yeah, those are pretty complicated. Nobody is particularly bad -- don't mean to point fingers |
| [17:41] | Grip Talon: | i have to run now thanks everyone |
| [17:41] | Elisha Richez: | bye grippy |
| [17:41] | Charlette Proto: | yeah Mysti is one of the top offenders in korea since just about everyone has it while nobody needs it |
| [17:41] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hehe, arcane is fine actually. All of fuzzy logic relies on turning complex analytic stuff into simple arcane/heuristic stuff, and it works great, and fast. (Our washing machines) --- that was the basis of the "cost assignment" approach to automatic abuse control I mentioned some weeks back :-) |
| [17:41] | Moundsa Mayo: | cya, Grip |
| [17:41] | Grip Talon: | i got DJ at svens |
| [17:41] | Grip Talon: | byebye |
| [17:41] | Simon Linden: | Bye |
| [17:41] | Moon Metty: | bye Grip |
| [17:41] | Morgaine Dinova: | Cya Grip |
| [17:41] | Shad Raffke: | byeee and thank you! come again! |
| [17:41] | Rex Cronon: | tc |
| [17:42] | Psi Merlin: | I often see 1 - 1.5ms or higher for AVies on my Regions |
| [17:42] | Moon Metty: | maybe they have some shoes that use a sleep, Psi |
| [17:42] | Andrew Linden: | There is a plan for a project to do better script resource limiting/allocation |
| [17:42] | Andrew Linden: | but it is not being worked on yet, I think. |
| [17:42] | Moon Metty: | the old invisiprim script uses sleep |
| [17:43] | Charlette Proto: | for sure the sim should limit the time spent on any LSL whore (avie) |
| [17:43] | Latif Khalifa: | sleep counts as script time? |
| [17:43] | Simon Linden: | 8 of the top 20 scripts are these chairs ... anyway, that's getting into more arcane detail |
| [17:43] | Andrew Linden: | One of the various misc projects on my personal TODO list is to clean up some code that would help that project. Right now it is not a very cheap operation to count the scripts on an object, in the simulator code. |
| [17:43] | Simon Linden: | I just checked in a fix for that today |
| [17:43] | Psi Merlin: | Possible - more likely other 'attachments' :) Heavely scripts |
| [17:43] | Shad Raffke: | woah |
| [17:43] | Moon Metty: | yes, sleeping scripts are the highest topscripts, sometimes |
| [17:43] | Andrew Linden: | So we don't do a lot of "how many scripts on this object" queries. |
| [17:44] | Andrew Linden: | But any script resource balance project is going to have to ask that question a lot. |
| [17:44] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: going to accumulate the script counts in one place, like in root prim metadata? |
| [17:44] | Simon Linden: | What happens with sleeping scripts is we weren't doing run-time accounting when it slept - so if it had a high cost, then did sleep(), it would remain at the high cost until the sleep was over |
| [17:45] | Morgaine Dinova: | Simon: ouch |
| [17:45] | Latif Khalifa: | Simon, that fix will make it into 1.27 i hope |
| [17:45] | Charlette Proto: | that is soo dumb, I thought sleep meant sleep |
| [17:45] | Simon Linden: | Depends on Andrew's merge mood, I think |
| [17:45] | Latif Khalifa: | hehe |
| [17:45] | Morgaine Dinova: | Prims sleep with one eye open :P |
| [17:45] | Andrew Linden: | Well, we'd have to do what we already do for parcel prim counts -- real-time accounting, so we'd have to track when an object transitions from one script category to another, and keep track of the total number of scripts in each pool. |
| [17:45] | Moon Metty: | the script doesn't actually load the server, it just confuses topscripts :) |
| [17:46] | Simon Linden: | It was just an oversight - the script run time is accounted for after it ran, but when sleeping, it exited early. So the old values stuck around |
| [17:46] | Charlette Proto: | than there is the exponential load of scripts interacting with all avies - scanners ets |
| [17:46] | Latif Khalifa: | Andrew, do you know why is it so slow to get a list of task inventory if it contains say more than 20 items? |
| [17:46] | Andrew Linden: | Yup, Simon fixed that bug today Moon. I saw the code. |
| [17:46] | Moon Metty: | awesome |
| [17:46] | Andrew Linden: | Er... in one of the maint-server branches -- we'll be lucky to see it in 1.27 |
| [17:47] | Simon Linden: | The total script time vs. manually adding up all individual ones isn't fixed, however. I think most of the difference is in the overhead of switching scripts |
| [17:47] | Morgaine Dinova: | How about making scanners/sensors obsolete in the world, by providing a direct sim querying API instead? |
| [17:47] | Andrew Linden: | No Latif, I don't know why that operation slows down. |
| [17:47] | Moon Metty: | well, the overhead -problem doesn't concern real topscripts |
| [17:47] | Latif Khalifa: | seems to be getting exponentially slower with the number of items prim contains |
| [17:47] | Andrew Linden: | I'm sure it can be optimized. I'd love to try to optimize the script engine, but I think Babbage and crew already did some optimization passes |
| [17:48] | Sante Klees: | I agree with Morgaine |
| [17:48] | Andrew Linden: | I'm not sure how much easy fixes remain. |
| [17:48] | Charlette Proto: | precisely Morgaine or using the client viewer data |
| [17:48] | Rex Cronon: | i don't think u need to query the server, u already have a list of objects in your viewer |
| [17:48] | Latif Khalifa: | there is opensource viewer patch that adds "radar" to the viewer |
| [17:48] | Simon Linden: | That's a really good reason to have some client-side scripting |
| [17:49] | Morgaine Dinova: | Nobody has ever understood why huge networks of sensors are required for sim management. Quite bizarre |
| [17:49] | Charlette Proto: | EDUCATION first - persuade people not to use useless scanners and delete as many as possible resizing scripts |
| [17:49] | Andrew Linden: | Oy, so anyone could scrape data out of the simulators. We should add the API, I'm sure, but it would have to be throttled nice and tight. |
| [17:49] | Arawn Spitteler'd like to script a scrootch gun, to open a conference with the noisom that he freezes | |
| [17:49] | Latif Khalifa: | coarse location update lets you tell each avi's position in the sim |
| [17:50] | Sante Klees: | So your client already has that data? |
| [17:50] | Latif Khalifa: | yup |
| [17:50] | Moon Metty: | yes |
| [17:50] | Latif Khalifa: | viewer uses it for minmap |
| [17:50] | Moundsa Mayo: | WHat about 'nerby' but in adjacent sim? |
| [17:50] | Charlette Proto: | sure the client has the data for voice volume and chat distance |
| [17:50] | Moundsa Mayo: | [nearby] |
| [17:50] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: sure, we're not talking about compromizing anyone or anything --- just dropping the sensing load to zero by providing sim owners with data direct :-) |
| [17:50] | Simon Linden: | Anything that's within your view and has been downloaded |
| [17:50] | Latif Khalifa: | everything you see on minimap |
| [17:50] | Charlette Proto: | including child agents |
| [17:50] | Moundsa Mayo: | k |
| [17:51] | Latif Khalifa: | if you see the green dot on the minimap your viewer knows who is it |
| [17:51] | Charlette Proto: | the HUD radars are the dumbest thing in Second Life™ |
| [17:51] | Shad Raffke: | why? |
| [17:51] | Latif Khalifa: | in fact 1.23 lets you right click on the mini map green dot and select Profile.. |
| [17:51] | Simon Linden: | So - (dream feature here) if there was a way to write client-side HUDs that could look into the data the viewer has, it could eliminate a lot of server-side work |
| [17:51] | Sante Klees: | Maybe provide a mini-map that can run local scripts? Just a thought |
| [17:51] | Andrew Linden: | "child agent" = avatar in the neighboring region, who can see into this one. The "child-agent" is the bit of code that knows where the avatar is in the neighbor, so the simulator can send info about the objects in view. |
| [17:52] | Charlette Proto: | because HUDs run serverside duplicating the data in the viewer Shad |
| [17:52] | Moundsa Mayo: | Especially if that functionality were accompanied by an incentive to USE it instead of sim-loading scripts. |
| [17:52] | Andrew Linden: | Yes, I think Babbage wants to eventually do that -- be able to run scripts client-side. |
| [17:52] | Sante Klees: | For what point do they use radars? Just to see where people are? |
| [17:52] | Shad Raffke: | and? seems things are duplicated quite often |
| [17:53] | Charlette Proto: | all the radar/scanner functionality is in the viewer except not in one place in the UI |
| [17:53] | Rex Cronon: | scanners are used for weapons or shields |
| [17:53] | Shad Raffke: | thats like asking why do people utilize visitor scripts |
| [17:53] | Charlette Proto: | and the radar/scanner load is exponential on the sime |
| [17:53] | Charlette Proto: | sim* |
| [17:53] | Morgaine Dinova: | Simon: Q is looking at a better viewer API to make such data easily available. And some of us in Imprudence (and others too) are looking at client-side scripting mechanisms. So putting both together, there could be a future in which that data can be gathered from the viewer and displayed directly. |
| [17:54] | Sante Klees: | So they're treating it more like a game, with different options that aren't already built in |
| [17:54] | Shad Raffke: | many find them useful |
| [17:54] | Rex Cronon: | u also can use a scanner o see if somebody is using abug to spy on u |
| [17:54] | Charlette Proto: | precisely as Morgaine put it but these ideas need to be accepted by LL |
| [17:54] | Shad Raffke: | so i have to disagree with you |
| [17:54] | Elisha Richez: | true rex |
| [17:54] | Andrew Linden: | Ah yes, the SL viewer would be a logical tool for querying the simulator via some general API. |
| [17:54] | Simon Linden: | Morgaine - sounds really interesting. It would be great to open that up with an extensible architecture |
| [17:55] | Charlette Proto: | and you have the greatest load Shad so I suppose you are an LSL whore defending your rights |
| [17:55] | Arawn Spitteler: | Could viewers be scripted to chat on channels, independant of our UIs? |
| [17:55] | Andrew Linden: | That is, an API that didn't necessarily need a viewer -- some HTTP "get" request. But the SL client could send those gets |
| [17:55] | Shad Raffke: | did she just call me a wh_re? |
| [17:55] | Morgaine Dinova: | Simon: yeah, but not easy. The bit inside the viewer that Q is looking is especially sordid. |
| [17:55] | Ardy Lay: | She uses that word a lot. |
| [17:55] | Charlette Proto: | hehe sry |
| [17:55] | Rex Cronon: | until the reguar viewer has a radar, u can't blame people for using them |
| [17:55] | Charlette Proto: | truth hurts Shad |
| [17:56] | Arawn Spitteler: | Prim Whore doesn't mean decent sex worker, or proffessional witness. |
| [17:56] | Shad Raffke: | thats uncalled for dont you think |
| [17:56] | Simon Linden: | Yeah, the API to get info, and another to draw and get user IO would be a lot of work |
| [17:56] | Latif Khalifa: | Rex, have you seen the patched viewer with a radar? |
| [17:56] | Charlette Proto: | what do you need a fucking radar for Rex |
| [17:56] | Shad Raffke: | please ban her |
| [17:56] | Moundsa Mayo: | LIKE %parialname% |
| [17:56] | Shad Raffke: | she has nothing useful but foul language here |
| [17:56] | Latif Khalifa: | Charlette, ease up on the language please |
| [17:56] | Rex Cronon: | i like to know who and what is around me:) |
| [17:56] | Andrew Linden: | I think I'm going to have to go over the transcripts and !@#$%^&*() out all the foul language today. |
| [17:56] | Shad Raffke: | child office hours are over on the teen grid i think |
| [17:56] | Charlette Proto: | and LL need to get their act together on UI and forget stupid ideas like farming out to Big Spaceship etc |
| [17:57] | Moon Metty: | heh |
| [17:57] | Rex Cronon: | people like to hide eitehr themselves or their objects and play pranks on others |
| [17:57] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | I just like using it to be able to know who's around, find friends easier |
| [17:57] | Elisha Richez: | exactly |
| [17:57] | Moon Metty: | i just look around |
| [17:57] | Latif Khalifa: | a lot of people use them |
| [17:58] | JaneD DeCuir: | or for building in a sandbox for distance adjustments |
| [17:58] | Ardy Lay: | Real friends let me locate them on the map. |
| [17:58] | Sante Klees: | So a more robust overview of the area |
| [17:58] | Charlette Proto: | yeah that is just plain stupid besides if everyone was to use radar/scanner now we would stop |
| [17:58] | Rex Cronon: | and sadly the only way to intercep projectiles is with a scnner |
| [17:58] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | (Plus for me it also has business applications, if I am looking for someone in particular to watch) |
| [17:58] | Moundsa Mayo: | Prolly some acceleration tricks possible on database level? Denormalize sufficiently to keep avatar table for quicker querying? |
| [17:58] | Rex Cronon: | since volume detect doesn't work on attachments:( |
| [17:58] | Latif Khalifa: | well you can call it "stupid", it does not mean that a lot of people don't find them useful |
| [17:59] | Andrew Linden: | Yes Moundsa. I suspect there is room for optimizations. |
| [17:59] | Elisha Richez: | most everyone i know uses a radar in some form whether it be in the UI , par, or with a hud |
| [17:59] | Moundsa Mayo: | Maybe even 'scripted objects'. |
| [17:59] | Moundsa Mayo: | Couldn't do ALL permutations, though 8^) |
| [17:59] | Rex Cronon: | charlette, i have run over 500 radars in one sim without any lag:) |
| [18:00] | Simon Linden: | It probably depends a lot on how they are coded |
| [18:00] | Elisha Richez: | im running three right now XP |
| [18:00] | Shad Raffke: | she just mad bc she cant sneak up on people and spy easily |
| [18:00] | Latif Khalifa: | hehe |
| [18:00] | Morgaine Dinova: | Well if info is already in the viewer, then not making it available for use is suboptimal, ie. a waste. And really it's nobody's business but the client's owner to choose to use it or not. |
| [18:00] | Sante Klees: | Could LL create approved radar scripts that are optimized? |
| [18:00] | TumbleWeed Loopen: | (Argh, now I just dropped mine in trying to scoot it over) |
| [18:01] | Charlette Proto: | well for what I understand the exponential load of avie based scanners is one of the main LSL problems I observe and since the client could provide it in the UI (if it was being developed) I see it as our best chance to improve the sim preformance |
| [18:01] | Andrew Linden: | LL would be interested in just optimizing LSL so that it ran faster in general, and script resouce balancing too, so no one could hog all of it. |
| [18:01] | Simon Linden: | Sante - I'm not sure we'd go that far, but if they are really a bad source of lag, it would be good to show what the best techiques are |
| [18:02] | Arawn Spitteler: | Do scanners look at each square meter, rather than just asking the sim what's available, for a looksy? |
| [18:02] | Simon Linden: | What LSL do they typically use to find AVs? |
| [18:02] | Moundsa Mayo: | Possibly would find that a synchronous messaging option would make scripting much more efficient when messaging in use. |
| [18:02] | Rex Cronon: | llsensor |
| [18:02] | Andrew Linden: | Ok, looks like the hour is up and I've got to go. You all can stick around and keep talking... don't mind my absence ;-) |
| [18:02] | Simon Linden: | ah, doh |
| [18:02] | Moundsa Mayo shouts: At Michael's Office Hours he summarized a list of physics engine anomalies, 'tips & tricks' that you provided. Are those and others on/going to be on the SLWiki? | |
| [18:02] | Rex Cronon: | or llsensorrepeat |
| [18:02] | Moon Metty: | thank you Andrew and Simon :) |
| [18:02] | Opensource Obscure: | bye andrew |
| [18:02] | Charlette Proto: | optimising LSL will not do a thing so long as every avie is scanning every other one - simple |
| [18:02] | Arawn Spitteler: | llSensorRepeat is used, to take up more sim time |
| [18:02] | Latif Khalifa: | Andrew, thank you for your time |
| [18:03] | Moundsa Mayo: | oops - scuse the shout |
| [18:03] | Elisha Richez: | c u all |
| [18:03] | Rex Cronon: | tc andrew |
| [18:03] | Morgaine Dinova: | "Approved scripts" is an extraordinarily bad idea, if you think where it will lead. "Hands off content" is the only really safe road for LL, and better for us. |
| [18:03] | Charlette Proto: | total waste of server load which can be solved clientside |
| [18:03] | Simon Linden: | there might be a way to throttle sensors specifically ... maybe give them less time if the frame rate dropped below a threshold |
| [18:03] | Latif Khalifa: | morg +1 |
| [18:03] | Sante Klees: | This reminds me too much of meetings I have at work, lol |
| [18:03] | Rex Cronon: | having 100 scanners in a simm doesn' not affect it |
| [18:03] | Elisha Richez: | bye charlette....kisses |
| [18:03] | Morgaine Dinova: | See you Charlette :-) |
| [18:03] | Arawn Spitteler: | Once you have a list of all avies in the sim, you could then search llGetObjectDetails, to see if they're in the path of your scanner |
| [18:04] | Charlette Proto: | byee |
| [18:04] | Moundsa Mayo: | AND that works faRTHER AWAY THAN THE 96M SENSOR LIMIT |