User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 05 21

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[16:58]	Ardy Lay:	I got a nice suprise
[16:59]	Moon Metty:	really
[16:59]	Ardy Lay:	Somebody putting money in my account. :-)
[16:59]	Dirk Talamasca:	Beware of skunks with surprises
[16:59]	Stickman Ingmann:	I don't like it when skunks say they have a surprise. D: Oh, that's a nice surprise.
[16:59]	Dirk Talamasca:	LOL
[16:59]	Helena Lycia:	Hiya Simon
[16:59]	Moon Metty:	hi Simon :)
[16:59]	Simon Linden:	Hello all
[16:59]	Dirk Talamasca:	Hello Simon
[16:59]	Tiny Blue Kitty Head: Please type 'X help' for more help with commands
[17:00]	Moon Metty:	hi Morg
[17:00]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hi lupey
[17:00]	Lupey Severine:	hey Tech
[17:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Moon :-)
[17:00]	Simon Linden:	Well, let's mention SVC-22 and get it out of the way :)
[17:00]	Stickman Ingmann:	Please don't eat my head, Lupey. I need that. :(
[17:01]	Moon Metty:	oh, i already mentioned svc-93
[17:01]	Moon Metty:	just to be sure :)
[17:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	SVC-22 and SVC-2931 also?
[17:01]	Moon Metty:	uh oh, there is Arawn :D
[17:01]	Erinyse Planer:	sorry if i smacked down on someone
[17:01]	Erinyse Planer:	moon behave!
[17:01]	Erinyse Planer pouts
[17:01]	Moon Metty:	hi Erinyse , are you feeling better?
[17:01]	Erinyse Planer:	dont make me bite you and a little
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure if Andrew is going to make it today ...
[17:02]	Stickman Ingmann:	Aw.
[17:02]	Stickman Ingmann:	You'll have to be twice as awesome then, Simon.
[17:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Swine Flu? I've got to hurry and get a pig with wings avie, while it's still in fashion
[17:02]	Erinyse Planer:	>.>
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	What did Andrew make of all the wierd stuff Gregory made last week, with the double rotates?
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	Let's see ... we finished the 1.26.4 rollout today, which hopefully will stick for a while and not have updates
[17:03]	Moon Metty:	hi Psi :)
[17:03]	Dirk Talamasca:	Hiya Psi :o)
[17:03]	Psi Merlin:	Hi all
[17:03]	Fury Rosewood:	go go hampster
[17:04]	Fury Rosewood:	or gerbil
[17:04]	Fury Rosewood cheers it on
[17:04]	Ardy Lay:	Fury?
[17:04]	Erinyse Planer:	labrats now. they worked the gerbils and hamsters to death already
[17:04]	Fury Rosewood:	what im encouraging my processor to draw stuff
[17:04]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe
[17:04]	Fury Rosewood:	it needs help ;/
[17:05]	Moon Metty:	i have a question about https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4143, someone marked it as fixed
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	Morg ... he hasn't had a chance to look at them. I'll ping him again to remind him
[17:05]	Morgaine Dinova nods
[17:05]	Moon Metty:	but there is no comment
[17:05]	Charlette Proto:	hi everyone
[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[17:05]	Fury Rosewood:	hey hey
[17:05]	Fury Rosewood:	ao off
[17:05]	Erinyse Planer:	welcome charlette. hiya rex
[17:06]	Moon Metty:	hi Charlette and Rex
[17:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi erinyse, moon, charlette
[17:06]	Helena Lycia:	Hiya Rex
[17:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi helena
[17:07]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if he filed this ephemeral feature correctly as MISC: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2837 is something I can't tell if it's viewer or server, but was fixed by teleporting.
[17:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	That dragon's excessive at the table
[17:07]	Simon Linden:	Moon - that was improved in 1.26.4. There was a lot of discussion about it, and the decision was made to limit that function to disable 10 scripts at a time
[17:07]	Lupey Severine:	Um you could just ask me to change and I will
[17:07]	Stickman Ingmann:	SVC-4143 was marked fixed by Torrington Garnet.
[17:07]	Simon Linden:	I wasn't in on the design there, so I can't give you the hard details. That's just been rolled out, so we'll see how it gets accepted
[17:08]	Moon Metty:	ok, maybe it's an idea to post a clarification on the jira then
[17:08]	Moon Metty:	i don't have access to estate tools on agni btw :)
[17:08]	Charlette Proto:	any ideas why we had such high Packet Loss figures in the last few days on the 1.26.3?
[17:08]	Simon Linden:	That's a good idea
[17:09]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, no ... I can't recall any problems with the network. What were you seeing?
[17:09]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I don't have estate anywhere on any grid. So I can't test and repo. But it sound like an estate manager can permerlly break avatars.
[17:10]	Helena Lycia:	I guess that was just me then
[17:10]	Charlette Proto:	no my end simon, everyone had the same spikes reaching 30% and even more (I'm on ADSL2+, 20MBps )
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	yeah, that's one that really needs a fix with a better feature, as the current way isn't quite right
[17:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	I wish we had objective metrics of rez time. I'm pretty sure that there's been a 2-fold slowdown ofn rezzing on initial entry to a zone, over the last month. But no way of measuring :-(
[17:11]	Fury Rosewood:	the rez time does seem to have taken longer than it has in the past
[17:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think 1.23.0 might have been theculprit in one jira
[17:11]	Simon Linden:	I've noticed the same thing logging in here ... things are definitely slower to rez
[17:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Peoplearoundthis tble are very slo to rez
[17:12]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I have problems getting to level3 form a couple places over the past couple days.
[17:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	level3?
[17:12]	Techwolf Lupindo:	level3 is one of the major backbone providers.
[17:12]	Charlette Proto:	so glad that LL saw thhrough the problem with pie menu position of the EDIT and DETACH
[17:13]	Rex Cronon:	could it have something top do with using http, instead of UDP:)
[17:13]	[g]_AndrewsReminder.0.2: Andrew Linden's You Really Should Get To Fixing SVC-22 Box has been reset.
[17:13]	Simon Linden:	Charlette - was that fixed with the latest viewer?
[17:13]	Charlette Proto:	yes thank god (Linden) and the camera is fixed too
[17:13]	Simon Linden:	That's good to hear
[17:14]	Simon Linden:	OK, so does anyone have a new question or problem they want to bring up?
[17:14]	Charlette Proto:	the RC 1.23.2 is also very stable like previous 1.23
[17:14]	Erinyse Planer:	define stable. ive had lots of crashes with 1.23....
[17:15]	Erinyse Planer:	anywyas simon i have one but might be best to discuss later
[17:15]	Ardy Lay:	I run 1.23.2RC on Windows 7 64bit
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	ah stable for me means 20 hours online Erin
[17:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2837 was an ephemeral feature, fixed with teleport, but I don't kow how to guess whetherit's a vieer or server feature
[17:15]	Fury Rosewood:	i ran it on win7 x64 without problem
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	I run 64bit windows 7 on Nvideia
[17:15]	Fury Rosewood:	only crash i had was when i turned off the shadows the wrong way
[17:15]	Lupey Severine:	I still like Vista
[17:15]	Ardy Lay:	Seems to be working a lot better than on XP for me. I am blaming drivers on XP for the nvidia display.
[17:16]	Gregory Maurer:	I was wondering how precise object positions are, server side.
[17:16]	Erinyse Planer:	lol im lucky to get 3
[17:16]	Fury Rosewood:	i still was having issues with shadows making alphas bug out
[17:16]	Fury Rosewood:	tho thats probably old news now
[17:17]	Rex Cronon:	i was wondering how precise is llRot2Euler:)
[17:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	1.22.11 stays up for me longer than SL does, with the rolling restarts.
[17:17]	Charlette Proto:	must admit that Windows 7 is a fantastic improvement for Second Life™ viewer over Vista
[17:17]	Simon Linden:	Gregory - I think internally we're using double-precision floats, but the real problem we often see is with the messages between viewer and server, which are sometimes packed into fewer bits
[17:18]	Charlette Proto:	yes the 1.22.11 is also very stable but I'm finding 1.23 even better and about 15% faster
[17:18]	Gregory Maurer:	What about LSL set positions?
[17:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	Vista was very futuristic, when using up our system resources.
[17:18]	Fury Rosewood:	heh
[17:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	http://xkcd.com/528/
[17:19]	Fury Rosewood:	so far ive liked windows seven's memory managemtn
[17:19]	Fury Rosewood:	management
[17:19]	Fury Rosewood:	its alot snappier when comparing to xp
[17:19]	Simon Linden:	There are some odd problems as a result ... used to be problems rotating textures 180 degress, for example, because it would get truncated with the message precision
[17:20]	Lupey Severine:	I think I'm the only person that actualy likes Vista arnt I
[17:20]	Simon Linden:	I don't know the exact details off the top of my head, I'd have to look at the message code to get a real answer
[17:20]	Simon Linden:	I actually like Vista too, if we're going to be confessing here
[17:20]	Simon Linden:	Running it now
[17:20]	Lupey Severine:	^_^
[17:20]	Fury Rosewood:	its ok, i just am not in love with it
[17:21]	Fury Rosewood:	im in love with win7
[17:21]	Fury Rosewood:	i want to keep it
[17:21]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Windows 7 = Vista SP3.
[17:21]	Techwolf Lupindo:	:-)
[17:21]	Lupey Severine:	I like the hardware support XP was always crummy when I had to install stuff
[17:21]	Charlette Proto:	I liked Vistta till I moved to 64bit Windows 7
[17:21]	Lupey Severine:	Only thing that never played well with Vista is my Nomad
[17:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Henry :-)
[17:21]	Charlette Proto:	whatever Tech (true) but it is a cleaner OS
[17:22]	Charlette Proto:	Win& version is actually 6.1 not 7
[17:22]	Charlette Proto:	Win7*
[17:22]	Simon Linden:	Has anyone running Windows 7 thought the viewer was different at all? Faster/lower, more or less reliable?
[17:22]	Ardy Lay:	Seems faster to me.
[17:22]	Charlette Proto:	faster
[17:23]	Simon Linden:	I don't know if the viewer team or QA is looking at it much
[17:23]	Simon Linden:	Faster is definitely good
[17:23]	Charlette Proto:	but I'm comparing Vista32 to Win7 64 bit
[17:23]	Charlette Proto:	and the extra memory (4GB) is a godsend
[17:23]	Ardy Lay:	I was getting 4 seconds pauses on XP so I am trying to ignore those and I still think SL client is faster on Win7 64bit
[17:24]	Fury Rosewood:	most impressive thing to me
[17:24]	Fury Rosewood:	was the installation
[17:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	What I can't figure out is why you're paying for your Windows O/S's. They're made for Microsoft's benefit and as a content delivery platform for 3rd party DRM'd content providers, as well as for MS's own apps. So MS should be paying you to run their delivery platform.
[17:24]	Techwolf Lupindo:	When I was putting togethere a new computer, I got 8G of ram because I knew the SL client would need it. :-)
[17:24]	Charlette Proto:	also I find that Second Life™ doesn't seem to keep chewing up RAM like it does in Vista and especially XP
[17:25]	Fury Rosewood:	mmmm
[17:25]	Fury Rosewood:	2gig and boom
[17:25]	Fury Rosewood:	8 gig wont save you
[17:25]	Ardy Lay:	I tried very hard to eliminate the pauses. I even erased the disk and reinstalled with as little stuff as possible but the recent nvidia drivers on my machine with my combinations of hardware, I guess, was not working well.
[17:25]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I've gotten 3.5G core dump once.
[17:25]	Fury Rosewood:	easy way to avoid the client from booming
[17:25]	Stickman Ingmann:	A little light bedside reading, Techwolf?
[17:25]	Rex Cronon:	i guess in win7, all your activities are automatically tracked, and the results sent to microsoft .com:)
[17:25]	Rex Cronon:	am i wrong?
[17:25]	Charlette Proto:	OK lets give OS wars a break
[17:25]	Fury Rosewood:	set texture memory to 75 percent of the physical memory on the card
[17:26]	Lupey Severine:	Set your cache to 500 megs and it elimitaes memory leaks
[17:26]	Lupey Severine:	I run SL with max settings and get a perfectly fire frame rate with my texture memory twice what my physical card has
[17:26]	Charlette Proto:	even though Win 7 is an RC and it logs a lot it works a treat
[17:27]	Fury Rosewood:	that isnt the point
[17:27]	Fury Rosewood:	not the fact that it would make the thing run slow
[17:27]	Fury Rosewood:	its avoiding the 2 gig bubble
[17:27]	Ardy Lay:	When I installed a Linux distribution on this computer it worked great for SL.
[17:27]	Fury Rosewood:	which makes sl go boom
[17:27]	Simon Linden:	Well, in any case, it's good that the viewer is running well there. Any SL issues for the table? (or chairs?)
[17:27]	Stickman Ingmann:	I do have a question, Simon. A few maybe.
[17:27]	Lupey Severine:	I have 4 gigs of ram and SL is fine
[17:28]	Simon Linden:	Sure Stickman, what's up
[17:28]	Simon Linden:	?
[17:28]	Stickman Ingmann:	You've seen the Jira on deformations?
[17:28]	Stickman Ingmann:	I heard it's floating about the lab.
[17:28]	Simon Linden:	Do you have the number? It sounds vaguely familiar
[17:28]	Stickman Ingmann:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2374
[17:28]	Stickman Ingmann:	Got up to top four within a week. D:
[17:28]	Simon Linden:	Lots of votes
[17:29]	Stickman Ingmann:	Anyway, I was hoping Andrew would be here. The word on the street is that it's a tall order. I want to negociation something that can be DONE, rather than something that's exactly what we want.
[17:29]	Erinyse Planer:	simon what would it take server side to allow a viewer to uery for the cache file of an avatar, deliver it to other requesting avatars without crashing the sim, and also be able to query a avatar whose cache files are corrupte d or missing for replacements?
[17:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's with Deformatins?
[17:29]	Lupey Severine:	the little dragon I was useing earlier is a deformation AV
[17:29]	Stickman Ingmann:	The hole in the client that allows uploading deformations will be plugged at an unspecified date. I can't get anything out of a Linden about that. Asking results in being totally ignored every time. :/
[17:30]	Simon Linden:	It looks like that's mostly a viewer feature, so I'm not sure Andrew or myself can help much. It would be good to whittle it down to the best bang-for-the-buck, however, so there's a better chance it willl get done
[17:31]	Simon Linden:	Erinyse - do you mean getting the baked texture data for an avatar?
[17:31]	Stickman Ingmann:	Actually, it's a viewer and server issue both from what I'm hearing. Last time I asked Andrew about fixing one of the bugs with deformations, he muttered a few things about constructing a solution that sounded like it'd be difficult. Nyx and Pai mentioned when they asked around the office it was a difficult task to do.
[17:31]	Erinyse Planer:	yes simon
[17:31]	Erinyse Planer:	soemthing ive bene going back and forth with nyx about
[17:32]	Erinyse Planer:	we'ld both like to see it though probably it would be at least 1.26 viewer
[17:32]	Simon Linden:	I know there's a bunch of work going on with the texture pipeline, and that's included. Hopefully we'll move textures out of the simulator and they will be sent via http soon. That would probably make it more reliable
[17:32]	Stickman Ingmann:	Anyway, I'll bring it up with Qarl tomorrow. And get Andrew's opinion next week. No worries.
[17:32]	Erinyse Planer nods.
[17:33]	Simon Linden:	It seems like the viewer doesn't re-try to fetch missing ones after a while ... I haven't looked at that code to confirm it, but if someone is a white blob, they tend to stay that way
[17:33]	Erinyse Planer:	bassically to temporaily solve allot of problems, though it would requitre some viewer and sim side throttles what i proposed was a system that allows any viewer to query the sim for the bake cache of one avatar a minute
[17:33]	Daryth Kennedy:	What we havent had yet that would be really appreciated by the creative community is an agreement that the ability to upload current deform anims wont be turned off till a proper method is in place, or at least not turned off if you dont plan to support deforms
[17:33]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I like to have an option to force that Simon
[17:34]	Erinyse Planer:	tech thats what i proposed and nyx and i've been discussing, but nyx works mostly viewer side
[17:35]	Simon Linden:	Daryth - we just had a discussion about 'misfeatures' along those lines, with the general agreement not to close the useful ones until there's a feature for it. It's often a balancing act, however, if it starts to get misused.
[17:35]	Simon Linden:	I don't really know about deformations at all, however
[17:36]	Simon Linden:	Techwolf - I agree. I've always wanted to force that texture fetch when I see white blob AVs that aren't getting fixed
[17:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	Maybe re-rez feature?
[17:37]	Stickman Ingmann:	If that's the case Simon, then deformations are pretty much guaranteed not to be "fixed" until a proper solution is in place. But the only word I've heard is opposite that.
[17:37]	Lupey Severine:	I use an undeformer it causes AV's to all reload
[17:37]	Techwolf Lupindo:	One workaround I foudn is to use the seawolf dragon un-deformer. But you need rez rights.
[17:37]	Simon Linden:	The baked texture can get stuck in a few places ... I think if either the viewer or server fail to fetch it, it's marked as 'missing' and future fetches fail. It's programmed that way to avoid repeatingly hammering the asset system for bad data
[17:37]	Simon Linden:	... but it doesn't recover from a failure very well
[17:37]	Erinyse Planer:	simon would it be possible for you to get with nyx and talk about what nyx and i discussed earlier today then? i think my system would work, so does nyx, just a matter of figuring out how to do it and getting it coded and fitting it in to one of the future lines
[17:37]	Stickman Ingmann:	There's an undeform gesture, too. It's just a matter of playing some 18 animations.
[17:38]	Stickman Ingmann:	I would like to see that put in too, Erinyse.
[17:39]	Simon Linden:	Nyx should know who to ping for the server side textures ... I think Babbage is doing the texture pipeline work
[17:40]	Morgaine Dinova misses Maya. Would be cute next to Henry.
[17:40]	Simon Linden:	Let's see ... the other issue I've been involved with is adjusting the new 1000 prim limit for "Take" and related commands
[17:41]	Simon Linden:	We're going to raise it, but the QA people are doing some testing to try and figure out a better number
[17:41]	Techwolf Lupindo ducks to avoud the chat flood over that issue.
[17:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Woohoo!
[17:41]	Stickman Ingmann:	:D
[17:41]	Erinyse Planer:	simon
[17:41]	Simon Linden:	yeah, the meeting was getting too quiet
[17:41]	Simon Linden:	Erinyse
[17:42]	Erinyse Planer:	with take and return you think you guys could also find a way to filter out the linden trees itno their own grou?
[17:42]	Erinyse Planer:	*group?
[17:42]	Charlette Proto:	ah nice so one will be able to spam someone with an offer of 1000 items from the inventory now?
[17:42]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Can I maul the Linden responiable for making that disighen?
[17:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	If it gets too quiet we can discuss Prospero's departure. (/me ducks) :P
[17:42]	Simon Linden:	Well, we're looking at that as a feature we really need to design ... how to take a whole parcel, for example, and restore it
[17:42]	Stickman Ingmann:	Simon, I've heard a lot of people speaking out against that issue, but I haven't heard the official reason it was put into place. Asset server issue? Network/bandwidth issue? Something about serializing maybe?
[17:43]	Stickman Ingmann:	Taking a whole parcel would be fabulous.
[17:43]	Ardy Lay:	Rez timeouts
[17:43]	Erinyse Planer:	well right now even ONE linden tree can cause the eraser still of an entire coalessed object that fails to rez
[17:43]	Erinyse Planer:	ive lost way too much due to that bug
[17:43]	Simon Linden:	There was content loss in two ways ... if you had a real big coalesced asset, it might fail to rez
[17:43]	Simon Linden:	Sometimes you'd lose it, sometimes not
[17:43]	Techwolf Lupindo:	That feature need to be in place before the forced move to Urshla.
[17:43]	Charlette Proto:	that would be very usefull since a lot of people will be moving their whole builds in context of Adult changes
[17:43]	Simon Linden:	You could thus do a huge take, all the stuff ends up in inventory, and not be able to re-rez
[17:44]	Erinyse Planer:	agreed tech, though im gonna get banned cuase unless they move the entire sim im on i aint moving
[17:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: that's an *excellent* approach --- treat it as a new problem, large build set save/restore, including whole sim.
[17:44]	Simon Linden:	yeah, unfortunately we're late in discussing it for the big Adult move.
[17:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Defer the move!!!!
[17:44]	Morgaine Dinova smiles
[17:44]	Erinyse Planer:	yall could jsut give up that idea and make ursela a pg only continent
[17:44]	Charlette Proto:	last minute is better than fixing after the fact
[17:44]	Erinyse Planer:	be smarter and cheaper
[17:44]	Erinyse Planer:	for LL
[17:44]	Simon Linden:	not as much fun, however
[17:45]	Erinyse Planer:	...
[17:45]	Techwolf Lupindo:	...
[17:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	...
[17:45]	Simon Linden:	...
[17:45]	Charlette Proto:	some people have been reporting items missing when they take more than 40
[17:45]	Arawn Spitteler still wants the bility to ba German ISPs from sims
[17:45]	Erinyse Planer:	well ive resigned myself to getting kicked off SL cuase i wotn go tthat ghetto jsut to please a few idiots
[17:46]	Simon Linden:	40 shouldn't be too bad, but having waded through the selection and "take" code, it's scary. Do it in small chunks
[17:46]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe
[17:46]	Ardy Lay:	OKay
[17:46]	Erinyse Planer:	why arawn? i like most of the germans i know :-/
[17:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nah, just accept any size, and then let the server handle it in chunks.
[17:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	Age Play should be a choice, but it's no legal in Gemany
[17:47]	Erinyse Planer:	age play isnt legal in the us either
[17:47]	Simon Linden:	I was doing some experiments yesterday just trying to select 6000 objects, and I could get enough packet loss that the viewer connection froze up
[17:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	No coutry shuld have the ower t vioate our first amendment, not evn Congress
[17:47]	Erinyse Planer:	or the uk
[17:47]	Lupey Severine:	Age play in SL touches way too close to virtual child pornography
[17:47]	Simon Linden:	The messaging just doesn't scale up to 1000s of objects very well
[17:48]	Erinyse Planer:	arawn... age play under us and uk laws IS child pronography
[17:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's ridiculous. Nobody around this table is exactly the same age as portrayed.
[17:48]	Charlette Proto:	simiar to the 'objects comming too fast' mess I suppose
[17:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	In Hollan?
[17:48]	Lupey Severine:	the diffrence is the perceived age of the avatar
[17:48]	Simon Linden:	I personally look slight younger, taller and balder here
[17:48]	Charlette Proto:	true Morgaine - I'm 45 hehe
[17:48]	Erinyse Planer:	morgaine you really feel its ok to rp having sex with a 10 year ald? or an 8 year old?
[17:48]	Rex Cronon:	morgaine, would u belive it if somebody told their real age:)
[17:48]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I'me only about 300 days old..
[17:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	First Love Fantasies could involve memopries of 16 year olds
[17:49]	Stickman Ingmann:	I'm considerably younger in my avatar than real life. <.<
[17:49]	Erinyse Planer shrugs
[17:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's a totally idiotic concept to even discuss people's RL ages in a virtual world. It's pandering to the politicians and pressure groups, nothing else. Very silly.
[17:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	SL != RL
[17:49]	Erinyse Planer:	arawn age play violates sl's tos... and its agaisnt the law in most "western" copuntries
[17:49]	Lupey Severine:	Agreed
[17:49]	Arawn Spitteler's avatar is almost 5,000 to better blend with the youngsters
[17:50]	Lupey Severine:	but an avatar that appears to be 16 or younger should not be permitted to have sex period
[17:50]	Erinyse Planer:	and ive personally helped get a few of those that rped sex with minors into the jails where they belong
[17:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	Drug Paraphenalia i also illegal, but lines will be drawn in different jurisdictions
[17:51]	Simon Linden:	Well, given the differences of opinions, that demonstrates pretty well why we're making the Adult regions
[17:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don' thinkwe could geta mino to RP as a inor
[17:51]	Lupey Severine:	Drug paraphaniala is not illegal
[17:51]	Lupey Severine:	only the actual narcotics themselves
[17:51]	Erinyse Planer:	lupey depens on where you live
[17:51]	Lupey Severine:	Ok point taken
[17:52]	Erinyse Planer:	but... regardless theres a differance between rping doing drugs and rping raping a 5 year old
[17:52]	Charlette Proto:	I don't fancy getting involved with underage users, so i have mixed feelings about the whole thing, the strongest is the fact that Ursula will be very hard to grief due to the age verify issue
[17:52]	Lupey Severine:	but by that logic It would be perfectly fine for me to go to Tialand and pay to have sex with a 10 year old
[17:52]	Lupey Severine:	but it isnt
[17:52]	Lupey Severine:	there are certain things that despite the law are wrong
[17:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is Tialand a sim, or a place where 10 year olds mightbe injrd?
[17:52]	Simon Linden senses the office hours spinning off into the weeds
[17:52]	Lupey Severine:	violating children is one of them even if itsa not real depictions of it are wrong
[17:52]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I need a new suit, my fur is getting senged here...
[17:53]	Lupey Severine:	Thailand the country
[17:53]	Ardy Lay:	Simon needs a spin-trimmer.
[17:53]	Simon Linden:	ok, let's shelve the age issue
[17:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Philip Linden once replied on the SL Forum (in the old Linden Answers slot) that no one SL community would be allowed to coerce another SL community to obey their own rules. Well that principle has been totally broken. Just shows how SL is turning more and more into FL.
[17:53]	Rex Cronon:	aren't there states even in the usa where isn't illegal for 16 yea olds to have sex with those above 21?
[17:53]	Stickman Ingmann:	Now we get into the real of segmental truths. Do Universal truths really exist, or is everything truthful only within certain social circles?
[17:53]	Simon Linden:	Well, reality is forcing it's way into SL too as it gets bigger. It really doesn't exist in a vacuum
[17:53]	Lupey Severine:	correect
[17:53]	Erinyse Planer:	*shrugs*
[17:54]	Simon Linden:	L$10 to upload truths
[17:54]	Stickman Ingmann:	lulz
[17:54]	Erinyse Planer:	regardless its still amkes mroe sense for LL to ahve a pg only continent then an adult one
[17:54]	Erinyse Planer:	for LL and for the customers
[17:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Virtual worlds are NOT reality. Or they weren't, in Philip's original vision. But if you say that the vision is gone, yes, you're right.
[17:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	That would make moe sense
[17:54]	Simon Linden:	I'm going to have to run at 6:00 ... any last issues or questions?
[17:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	"Your world, California's imagination" now.
[17:55]	Stickman Ingmann:	Flee, Simon, while you still can!
[17:55]	Erinyse Planer:	simon who is in charge of a.o?
[17:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	What is allowed transparency in dismalissues?
[17:55]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, there are a lot of people involved. The ones doing the forum discussions are the best contact point
[17:55]	Erinyse Planer:	the oens that never answer anything?
[17:55]	Rex Cronon:	wil we ever have a function like this llGetNrScripts(key objectKey) return nrScriptsInObjectINventory?
[17:56]	Simon Linden:	Right, those are the ones
[17:56]	Erinyse Planer:	thats not helpful
[17:56]	Data Landau:	with all due respect , No one is having sex with anyone. I know that advances have been made in virtual representations but this is still a virtual space NOT REAL !
[17:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	As Data says.
[17:56]	Erinyse Planer:	data... evidence shows those that rp having sex with children are the ones most likely doing it irl.
[17:57]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I think anyone doing vitirial sex still has to use there own paw to stimilate themselves as the other person can't do it.
[17:57]	Simon Linden:	True, but visual representations can also get you thrown in jail in a lot of places. so it's pretty hard to draw the line
[17:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	I think anyone who watches murder on the telly should get locked up. Clearly they're also murdering in real life.
[17:57]	Stickman Ingmann:	I'm gonna head back to work. Thanks for your time, Simon. It's appreciated you meet with people like this. Always good to talk to a Linden. :)
[17:57]	Rex Cronon:	techwolf, i think there are "devices" for that. lol
[17:57]	Simon Linden:	Rex - what would that function do?
[17:58]	Erinyse Planer:	and out of the cases i know about where someone was arrested in sl or other virtual worlds for it in every single case they had collectiosn of child porn, and in most cases had had sexual contact with a chile
[17:58]	Simon Linden:	Take care, Stickman
[17:58]	Erinyse Planer:	*child
[17:58]	Moon Metty:	bye Stickman :)
[17:58]	Lupey Severine:	*follows*
[17:58]	Rex Cronon:	return how many active script are in a object
[17:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's not Age Pla I'm concerned about, but the privilege of one moralist to pervert the world
[17:59]	Simon Linden:	Is there a jira for that? It sounds pretty easy to do, so if the use is explained well, it has a chance...
[17:59]	Rex Cronon:	i will look to see if there is one. hopefully is
[17:59]	Charlette Proto:	I think there is also an issue of children pretending to be adults besides adults wanting to have sex mith underage
[17:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	That's why don't bother trying to ban it. Let it happen and allow law enforment to use this as a tool to get RL crimiles behind bars.
[18:00]	Simon Linden:	OK, it's time for me to bail out ... thanks everyone for coming
[18:00]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon
[18:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Simon :-)
[18:00]	Ardy Lay:	Bye Simon
[18:00]	Moon Metty:	alrighty thank you Simon
[18:00]	Charlette Proto:	byee Simon
[18:00]	Simon Linden:	See you all next time ... take care