User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 08 06

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  • [2009/08/06 17:01] Andrew Linden: Hello. Simon Linden said that he would be late today.
  • [2009/08/06 17:01] Phantom Ninetails: 'Kay
  • [2009/08/06 17:02] Chair: Press Page Up to move chair up, or Page Down to move chair down
  • [2009/08/06 17:02] reddot99 Republic: andrew did you dcheck on the mouselook thing?
  • [2009/08/06 17:03] Phantom Ninetails: Hey he's not very late. Greetings Simon
  • [2009/08/06 17:03] lonetorus Habilis: ah, no solution found, reddot?
  • [2009/08/06 17:03] Simon Linden: Hello everyone
  • [2009/08/06 17:03] Andrew Linden: Gah, I thought about it earlier today reddot99, but forgot.
  • [2009/08/06 17:03] Psi Merlin: Hi Andrew, Simon
  • [2009/08/06 17:04] Simon Linden: yeah, my other meeting ended :)
  • [2009/08/06 17:04] Andrew Linden: I want to get to it. Gimme one more chance reddot99. Three strikes (or four).
  • [2009/08/06 17:04] Phantom Ninetails: Ah
  • [2009/08/06 17:04] reddot99 Republic: ah well, you have more things to do then me, lol
  • [2009/08/06 17:05] Andrew Linden: Hey Simon, did you by chance save transcripts from last week?
  • [2009/08/06 17:05] Simon Linden: yes, I'm pretty sure I emailed them to you
  • [2009/08/06 17:05] Andrew Linden: I'm still planning on publishing the transcripts from the last two months... really.
  • [2009/08/06 17:05] Simon Linden: I'll check
  • [2009/08/06 17:05] Andrew Linden: No, I never got the email for this last Tuesday.
  • [2009/08/06 17:05] reddot99 Republic: i have them if he doesnt probably,
  • [2009/08/06 17:06] Andrew Linden: Ok... announcements...
  • [2009/08/06 17:06] Andrew Linden: I've been working on some permissions/copy exploits this week.
  • [2009/08/06 17:06] Andrew Linden: Unfortunately I wasn't able to fix all that I was aiming for.
  • [2009/08/06 17:07] Phantom Ninetails: Is this related to that script vulnerability that's been talked about on the Second Life forum?
  • [2009/08/06 17:07] Andrew Linden: I think one of my fixes is going out for an emergency rolling deploy... today.
  • [2009/08/06 17:07] reddot99 Republic: any of them related to bulk permissions?
  • [2009/08/06 17:07] Andrew Linden: At least that was the plan earlier this morning... dunno if it has started yet.
  • [2009/08/06 17:07] lonetorus Habilis: something to fix items with "foreced" permissions and or creator name (but retains original asset uuid) ?
  • [2009/08/06 17:08] Techwolf Lupindo: It has, seen in group chat where one yelled out about restart.
  • [2009/08/06 17:08] Andrew Linden: No reddot99, these are distinct from SVC-4444.
  • [2009/08/06 17:08] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4444
  • [#SVC-4444] Objects become fully permissive when rezzed under certain conditions. - with Repro
  • [2009/08/06 17:08] reddot99 Republic: no, theres adifferent bulk perms one phantom and i fouund
  • [2009/08/06 17:08] lonetorus Habilis: or the, make no trans object trans, using mo more than ll viewer
  • [2009/08/06 17:08] reddot99 Republic: regarding mod permissions given to friends
  • [2009/08/06 17:09] Psi Merlin: Even sims ar rolling at the moment
  • [2009/08/06 17:09] Andrew Linden: Phantom, I don't know what the "script vulnerability" is you're talking about. It could be related but I'm not sure.
  • [2009/08/06 17:09] Phantom Ninetails: http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=322980
  • [2009/08/06 17:10] Andrew Linden: Yeah, probably related to that thread Phantom.
  • [2009/08/06 17:10] Phantom Ninetails: Ooh.
  • [2009/08/06 17:11] Phantom Ninetails: This one's had my attention for a while.
  • [2009/08/06 17:11] Andrew Linden: Turns out I wasnt' able to fix the whole problem, but I believe part of it (the most important part) is fixed.
  • [2009/08/06 17:11] reddot99 Republic: heh, should i drag fred here?
  • [2009/08/06 17:11] Phantom Ninetails: Yay
  • [2009/08/06 17:11] Phantom Ninetails: It's nice to hear it's finally getting attention
  • [2009/08/06 17:11] Andrew Linden: I think the rest of the fix is in a branch that is waiting for testing/merging. I'm going to try to help get that into server-1.30.
  • [2009/08/06 17:12] Charlette Proto: sims are very vulnerable to lag causing griefing tools, missing assets and stuff like this, recently I found 42MB of this error in SecondLife.log "2009-08-01T23:58:10Z WARNING: LLFace::getGeometryVolume: Index buffer overflow!"
  • [2009/08/06 17:12] Phantom Ninetails: Yay
  • [2009/08/06 17:13] Charlette Proto: I'm sure 300,000 warnings of the same kind could be eliminated with some kind of throttle, that is 500 plus per minute, same thing over and over
  • [2009/08/06 17:13] Simon Linden: That'll definitely slow down your viewer
  • [2009/08/06 17:13] Charlette Proto: chat lag (I'm in aus so I get some lag but this is bad
  • [2009/08/06 17:14] reddot99 Republic: also charlette, i've been seeing sims getting crashed by 2000 plus assets called in a frame,
  • [2009/08/06 17:14] reddot99 Republic: recently
  • [2009/08/06 17:14] Ardy Lay: Andrew, Simon, I had a run-in with an object entry problem today and filed SEC-431 which was almost immediately closed as a duplicate. "@Ardy - thank you for your report. This is a known issue - I'll link the internal issue back to this one and give the issue's owner a nudge." -- Soft Linden
  • [2009/08/06 17:14] reddot99 Republic: pending downloads jumps from 0 to 2000 then crashs
  • [2009/08/06 17:15] Andrew Linden: let me look at it Ardy.
  • [2009/08/06 17:15] Charlette Proto: similar thing and these exploits are done by trolls just for fun, make a new account and have a laugh at the other users
  • [2009/08/06 17:15] Ardy Lay: Okay, thanks.
  • [2009/08/06 17:15] Andrew Linden: reddot99, that 2000+ assets problem is being worked on, I think.
  • [2009/08/06 17:15] reddot99 Republic: food, bck son
  • [2009/08/06 17:16] Charlette Proto: the above problem is SEC-430 and soft has my .log files
  • [2009/08/06 17:16] Andrew Linden: Unfortunately Ardy I'm afraid that SEC-431 just doesn't quite make the cut for an SEC bug. I think that would go into the normal pile.
  • [2009/08/06 17:17] Andrew Linden: But thanks for reporting it.
  • [2009/08/06 17:17] Ardy Lay: Hmm.. People are using it to fill the region with particles pretty much ruining things for us.
  • [2009/08/06 17:18] Charlette Proto: hard to know at our end Andrew and open JIRAs need to be skimpy on offending avatar and personal details
  • [2009/08/06 17:18] Andrew Linden: Ah, it's being used for grief.
  • [2009/08/06 17:18] Ardy Lay: They are putting objects on land owned by Gov Linden. Ow hell.
  • [2009/08/06 17:18] Ardy Lay: I see.
  • [2009/08/06 17:18] Charlette Proto: same in my case Ardy; Korea1 a welcome area
  • [2009/08/06 17:18] Andrew Linden: Back in the day... it was so easy to crash a region with a single physics bomb such particle armies were too hard to bother with much of the time.
  • [2009/08/06 17:18] Ardy Lay: I filed 4 ARs and 3 of 320 offending items got removed.
  • [2009/08/06 17:19] Ardy Lay: It finally took a phone call to get the parcel's auto-return set to something other than 0.
  • [2009/08/06 17:19] Andrew Linden: ouch
  • [2009/08/06 17:20] Charlette Proto: looks like now instead of hitting up against the GGF they attack by exploiting the viewer loads on the server too
  • [2009/08/06 17:20] Andrew Linden: ok, well maybe it is a valid SEC
  • [2009/08/06 17:20] Ardy Lay: The reason I filed a SEC issue is the customer support people that responded were treating us rather poorly.
  • [2009/08/06 17:20] Andrew Linden: I don't know if Soft was closing it for duplicate SEC or other entry.
  • [2009/08/06 17:20] lonetorus Habilis: it was my impression that max mono memory per sim was locked now, but sims still go down when rezing a cube with 10k+ scripts in it (each using all available mem)
  • [2009/08/06 17:20] Ardy Lay: He didn't say either way.
  • [2009/08/06 17:21] Andrew Linden: sigh... and I was hoping this would be a relaxing way to end my stressful day ;-)
  • [2009/08/06 17:21] Phantom Ninetails: Heh.
  • [2009/08/06 17:21] Charlette Proto: hehe Andrew
  • [2009/08/06 17:21] Ardy Lay: Sorry, I am done now. As long as the issue is in the pipe I will be quiet. :-)
  • [2009/08/06 17:22] Andrew Linden: no worries. I don't really have much on my meeting agenda except excuses.
  • [2009/08/06 17:22] Ardy Lay: Hehe
  • [2009/08/06 17:22] Ardy Lay: Okay
  • [2009/08/06 17:22] Latif Khalifa: hehe
  • [2009/08/06 17:22] Phantom Ninetails: lol
  • [2009/08/06 17:23] Andrew Linden: heh, i"m listening to Jamendo.com and an album just came up that has an SL screenshot for a cover.
  • [2009/08/06 17:23] Ardy Lay: I get the impression many customer support representatives are being pushed to burnout.
  • [2009/08/06 17:23] reddot99 Republic: lol
  • [2009/08/06 17:23] Phantom Ninetails: Crazy
  • [2009/08/06 17:23] Andrew Linden: Where is Eden? by Eden's Garden
  • [2009/08/06 17:23] reddot99 Republic: i think their past that point ardy
  • [2009/08/06 17:23] Latif Khalifa: I just have a question, hope its not answered already, does "fixing" broken 1.23 uplads that is mentioned in 1.27.2 release notes involves disabling UploadBakedTexture CAP?
  • [2009/08/06 17:24] Ardy Lay: At half the meetings I go to Lindens remind us there are job openings at Linden Lab. :-)
  • [2009/08/06 17:24] Andrew Linden: Earlier today I happened across one of Torley Linden's piano pieces on Jamendo.
  • [2009/08/06 17:24] Andrew Linden: Naturaly he has an SL pic for an album cover.
  • [2009/08/06 17:24] reddot99 Republic: lol, torley is a pianist?
  • [2009/08/06 17:24] lonetorus Habilis: very much so :D
  • [2009/08/06 17:24] Techwolf Lupindo: I keep checking the employment page at LL, but all they list is high level managment positions. One would think they would keep basic work force the same or expand, not let it shrink.
  • [2009/08/06 17:24] Charlette Proto: Andrew/Simon is there a way to introduce a flag in the server in order to put a given viewer in 'sleep' mode (intentionally eg AFKor via detection of trouble) so that only the 'heartbeat' is transmitted and no other updates or warnings?
  • [2009/08/06 17:25] Andrew Linden: No Latif, the baked texture upload was not affected as far as I know.
  • [2009/08/06 17:25] Simon Linden: Hmm, I thought they turned that off, actually
  • [2009/08/06 17:25] Ardy Lay: http://lindenlab.hrmdirect.com/employment/openings.php?sort=da&
  • [2009/08/06 17:25] Simon Linden: I may be wrong, however
  • [2009/08/06 17:25] Latif Khalifa: simon, yeah my bot is sad
  • [2009/08/06 17:25] Andrew Linden: Although... I was just looking at some of that pipeline and had to fix something there today (which shouldn't affect textures) and won't be deployed until 1.30.
  • [2009/08/06 17:26] Simon Linden: does your bot only use the cap?
  • [2009/08/06 17:26] Latif Khalifa: says no CAP for UploadingBakedTextures, reverting to UDP
  • [2009/08/06 17:26] Charlette Proto: so there was once a 'deep sleep' flag for the client?
  • [2009/08/06 17:26] Latif Khalifa: no, but it was soooo fast via CAP, easy too :)
  • [2009/08/06 17:26] Andrew Linden: Let me look at today's email about the deploy...
  • [2009/08/06 17:27] Simon Linden: Yeah, that's what I thought ... I don't really like that 'solution' but I guess the people looking into it didn't see a fix for the real problem
  • [2009/08/06 17:27] Charlette Proto: sry I think i missinterpreted as an answer to my question
  • [2009/08/06 17:27] Latif Khalifa: yeah the real problem being viewer 1.23
  • [2009/08/06 17:27] Simon Linden: Charlette - I don't know of a way to do that now, we don't have such a flag
  • [2009/08/06 17:27] Latif Khalifa: i just want to make sure i am not missing something, so i am not getting that CAP or it has been killed in 1.27.2
  • [2009/08/06 17:28] Simon Linden: You can drop your view distance down a lot to limit updates, that's all I can think of right now that would slow down updates
  • [2009/08/06 17:28] Andrew Linden: well, if baked texture upload CAP is disabled for now, doesn't look like it is fixed in 1.27.2.
  • [2009/08/06 17:28] Charlette Proto: but could one be introduced, at User Experience Design OH we talked about it from client side and everyone liked the idea for both reasons, solid AFK and defence
  • [2009/08/06 17:28] Simon Linden: We're still on 1.27.1 here
  • [2009/08/06 17:29] Phantom Ninetails: I've always wanted to see a rolling restart force a region with an office hour going on to restart.. :P
  • [2009/08/06 17:29] Andrew Linden: what is a "deep sleep" ?
  • [2009/08/06 17:29] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, I beleive there is nothing to fix it on the server. I think it was disabled to fix the viewer bug with uploads, by disabling the cap and forcing the viewer to go udp route wich works..
  • [2009/08/06 17:29] Latif Khalifa: there is viewer pause message
  • [2009/08/06 17:29] Latif Khalifa: viewer sends it when you minimize it
  • [2009/08/06 17:29] reddot99 Republic: also, is it possible to get llpointat reimplemented?
  • [2009/08/06 17:30] Simon Linden: It's technically possible, yes. We'd have to sort out a lot of details (what gets blocked, etc) but it would have to go through the grinder to get passed as a feature...
  • [2009/08/06 17:30] Meeter: Timecheck : office hours is half over
  • [2009/08/06 17:30] reddot99 Republic: or even a llrotpointat
  • [2009/08/06 17:30] PulseBurst Flow: switch to Comotose Life viewer
  • [2009/08/06 17:30] Charlette Proto: the viewer would do the hard work of analising the situation (defence eg moving too fast) and the server would just need to put the client data into the sleep mode
  • [2009/08/06 17:30] Simon Linden: Latif - there's a server side bug with the cap system that was causing the problem
  • [2009/08/06 17:30] Andrew Linden: what is wrong with llPointAt()?
  • [2009/08/06 17:30] reddot99 Republic: its depricated
  • [2009/08/06 17:31] Charlette Proto: everything blocked except for keeping the sim ping (heartbeat) alive
  • [2009/08/06 17:31] reddot99 Republic: no replacement
  • [2009/08/06 17:31] Latif Khalifa: Simon, wasn't that particular one fixed in 1.27.1 though?
  • [2009/08/06 17:31] reddot99 Republic: it'd be the solution to people trying to get scripts to turn them, like it could turn a person toward a speaker
  • [2009/08/06 17:31] Andrew Linden: Ok, good to know reddot99. I'll try to put that on my list of small but easy LSL features
  • [2009/08/06 17:31] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, yeah there is no way to rotate avatar from atteched script, which is kind of a bummer lol
  • [2009/08/06 17:32] reddot99 Republic: it
  • [2009/08/06 17:32] reddot99 Republic: 's commented out i bet
  • [2009/08/06 17:32] Andrew Linden: oh... rotating the avatar is uh... impossible right now.
  • [2009/08/06 17:32] Simon Linden: Latif - I don't know the details, but I believe there still was a problem where the back-end was occasionally returning an error. Some people would then get a rash of error dialogs
  • [2009/08/06 17:32] Andrew Linden: rotating it via script, I mean.
  • [2009/08/06 17:32] Charlette Proto: maybe an option for user initiated comms, one would have to workshop the idea more, I just thought of it today, kind of a client opt-in system for interaction
  • [2009/08/06 17:32] Simon Linden: ... and rashes of error dialogs are painful
  • [2009/08/06 17:32] Latif Khalifa: Simon, agreed
  • [2009/08/06 17:33] Simon Linden: We have been talking about overhauling the update mechanism ... it could be extended for some interesting features like that
  • [2009/08/06 17:33] Charlette Proto: yup, the dialogs are less common of late, but used to be really bad
  • [2009/08/06 17:33] Latif Khalifa: just hope this cap does not go to la-la land, it was soooo much faster
  • [2009/08/06 17:33] reddot99 Republic: thats what llpoint at was for, turned a person toward a given location, at least docmmentation on it says that,
  • [2009/08/06 17:33] Simon Linden: "Parcel Privacy" is my favorite ... what happens on your parcel stays on your parcel
  • [2009/08/06 17:33] Techwolf Lupindo: Rotating the avatar can be use for automated testing.
  • [2009/08/06 17:33] Simon Linden: We definitely want to fix it too
  • [2009/08/06 17:33] Andrew Linden: it is definitely not going to la-la land Latif. There are some important reasons for switching to the CAP system.
  • [2009/08/06 17:34] reddot99 Republic: lslwiki has a quote from kelly linden saying it was turned off in mid beta,
  • [2009/08/06 17:34] Latif Khalifa: good to hear :)
  • [2009/08/06 17:34] Techwolf Lupindo: Simin, uyou mean nor more niebors hearing text/noices from there neirboring bedroom? :-)
  • [2009/08/06 17:34] Latif Khalifa: it worked well in my test, i got spoiled by it in its short lived existance 1.27.0-1 :D
  • [2009/08/06 17:34] Simon Linden: Not to mention those animations!
  • [2009/08/06 17:34] Charlette Proto: the sim can't accommodate the client state detection as scalably as the client side, but a flag or a few would be all that is needed
  • [2009/08/06 17:35] Andrew Linden: Charlette, I think I'm lost on what issue you're talking about. Could you give me a quick summary?
  • [2009/08/06 17:35] Simon Linden: On that update work, adding more selectable updates would allow other viewers - perhaps a web browser, mobile device, etc if we had more control over what is sent to the client
  • [2009/08/06 17:36] reddot99 Republic: lol, sl on the nintendo ds
  • [2009/08/06 17:36] Andrew Linden: Ah, she's talking about subscription model for SL client to server data streaming?
  • [2009/08/06 17:36] Andrew Linden: er... server to client
  • [2009/08/06 17:36] Charlette Proto: that sounds great Simon, make sure you keep us posted, the viewer people would love to contribute
  • [2009/08/06 17:37] reddot99 Republic: no, i think she means filtering some errors at server,
  • [2009/08/06 17:37] Simon Linden: Andrew - no, it's stopping all updates to a client except for a heartbeat
  • [2009/08/06 17:37] Charlette Proto: filtering all sorts of state updates going to the given client
  • [2009/08/06 17:38] Saijanai Kuhn: in the long-term the OGP design calls for clients to request connections for various kinds of packets via http
  • [2009/08/06 17:38] Andrew Linden: So, you want to be able to make a client that does NOT subscribe to certain kinds of data updates from the server.
  • [2009/08/06 17:38] Simon Linden: Deep sleep mode, or something like that ... I took the idea and went into some of the other features that would be possible if we did an overhaul on the update code
  • [2009/08/06 17:38] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'm hip.
  • [2009/08/06 17:38] Charlette Proto: yup, 'deep sleep' modes, all or user initiated comms etc
  • [2009/08/06 17:38] Ardy Lay: Sometimes I would like to sell the simulators to not send me any sounds.
  • [2009/08/06 17:38] Ardy Lay: tell
  • [2009/08/06 17:39] Latif Khalifa: server supports that functionality, viewer just needs to send to correct params
  • [2009/08/06 17:39] reddot99 Republic: yeah, theres that 7 hour long sound based crasher
  • [2009/08/06 17:39] Simon Linden: Ardy - technically, you can do that on the viewer side, but I get what you mean.
  • [2009/08/06 17:39] Charlette Proto: the idea seems to be well received by everyone for various reasons
  • [2009/08/06 17:39] reddot99 Republic: it crashs trying to hold it in memory
  • [2009/08/06 17:39] Simon Linden: I think the sim sends sound info, then the viewer requests the sound data asset itself
  • [2009/08/06 17:39] Ardy Lay: I can mute playout of the sounds once it gets here.
  • [2009/08/06 17:40] Andrew Linden: well, if you've got a handheld PDA client... a very low rate data stream would be nice
  • [2009/08/06 17:40] Techwolf Lupindo: I got to thinking, for wide paramteric snapshots of sencery, it would be nice if the client could tell the server not to send any avatar updates.
  • [2009/08/06 17:40] Latif Khalifa: Charloote, patching the viewer will acomplish all that
  • [2009/08/06 17:40] Charlette Proto: but warnings etc would be best to be stopped serverside eg my 300,000 warnings
  • [2009/08/06 17:40] Andrew Linden: you'd have to prevent the flood higher up, at the server
  • [2009/08/06 17:40] Saijanai Kuhn: Andrew, as more and more packets are sent via http CAPs, this kind of thing will be easier to do.
  • [2009/08/06 17:40] Simon Linden: But in any case, I get your point. Control of updates and what info is sent would be great
  • [2009/08/06 17:40] Ardy Lay: Yes
  • [2009/08/06 17:41] Andrew Linden: Yes, caps will help since the caps data only comes when the viewr initializes them.
  • [2009/08/06 17:41] Charlette Proto: you may be right about clientside, we might test it in Imprudence viewer if I get a consensus from UXIG
  • [2009/08/06 17:41] Ardy Lay: Some of us get stuck on dial up links at times and just a few sounds coming down cause us to time out. :-)
  • [2009/08/06 17:41] reddot99 Republic: andrew, you've worked with server code forever, do you know why llpointat was disabled?
  • [2009/08/06 17:41] Andrew Linden: So if we moved most everything to caps then it would be pretty easy to write the simpler clients.
  • [2009/08/06 17:42] Andrew Linden: reddot99, if you're asking why we can't rotate the avatar via LSL, yes I know the answer to that
  • [2009/08/06 17:42] reddot99 Republic: why? if it worked at one time,
  • [2009/08/06 17:42] Saijanai Kuhn: in the long run, the model is supposed to be that a viewer requests ANY service via caps, so if the service isn't requested, its not sent. The server would need to be modded to know what it should be bothering with in the first place, of course
  • [2009/08/06 17:43] Latif Khalifa: well you cannot make a 3D realtime simulation over http exclusivelly sai :P
  • [2009/08/06 17:43] reddot99 Republic: "CURRENTLY BROKEN
  • llPointAt(vector pos)
  • Makes the object owner's avatar point towards position pos. Use llStopPointAt to stop pointing.
  • Note: This function is still broken as of 1.6. It neither points nor faces pos.
  • 'According to Kelly Linden, llPointAt and llStopPointAt have been deprecated since mid-beta, but remain without a replacement to this day. (SL version 1.6)" lslwiki.net
  • [2009/08/06 17:43] Saijanai Kuhn: well, udp or some moral replacement is needed for twitch level updates, but otherwise...
  • [2009/08/06 17:44] Charlette Proto: would the viewer request something that causes "2009-08-01T23:58:10Z WARNING: LLFace::getGeometryVolume: Index buffer overflow!" 300,000 times - 500 times a second?
  • [2009/08/06 17:44] Charlette Proto: a mniute sry*
  • [2009/08/06 17:44] reddot99 Republic: sculpty with too many vertices
  • [2009/08/06 17:45] Andrew Linden: yes, that is probably true -- you can't give up all UDP data transmissions
  • [2009/08/06 17:46] Latif Khalifa: yeah, but moving messaging, asset uploads downloads, over to http, makes all the sense :)
  • [2009/08/06 17:46] Charlette Proto: so one can grief by having a bad avatar etc "2009-08-06T19:44:06Z INFO: LLVOAvatar::onBakedTextureMasksLoaded: onBakedTextureMasksLoaded(): unexpected image id: fc4e7cea-28ef-3021-1a86-cece98489834"
  • [2009/08/06 17:46] Saijanai Kuhn: the OGPX list is debating where the balance needs to be for realtime needs vs streaming vs small/med/large packets
  • [2009/08/06 17:47] Techwolf Lupindo: UDP is good for data that expires quickly, so a drop packet means just wait for the next one due to the data in the dropped packet is of no use now.
  • [2009/08/06 17:47] Latif Khalifa: yeah they are very good at that -- debating :P
  • [2009/08/06 17:47] Charlette Proto: hehe Latif
  • [2009/08/06 17:47] Saijanai Kuhn: the ietf members with no Vw background actually have an advantage since they don't have an emotional commitment to one solution or the other
  • [2009/08/06 17:47] reddot99 Republic: lol
  • [2009/08/06 17:48] Latif Khalifa: shhh you'll wake up simon lol
  • [2009/08/06 17:48] Charlette Proto: coders are the worse at coding at times; notation wars etc
  • [2009/08/06 17:48] reddot99 Republic: andrew, it says that the function was never enabled, not that it cant be,
  • [2009/08/06 17:48] Charlette Proto: program design should be a conceptuat exercise till the last minute when the implementation is needed
  • [2009/08/06 17:49] Andrew Linden: reddot99, actually it is impossible to enable for the avatar.
  • [2009/08/06 17:49] Latif Khalifa: andrew, so what's the problem with rotating avatars by script?
  • [2009/08/06 17:49] jerry Pexington: come lets fly
  • [2009/08/06 17:49] reddot99 Republic: how so? go into quaternions if you must
  • [2009/08/06 17:49] Andrew Linden: We'd have to do some significant overhaul to accomodate rotated avatars. on both the server and the client
  • [2009/08/06 17:49] Saijanai Kuhn: how much of this functionality was contained in the puppeteer code?
  • [2009/08/06 17:50] reddot99 Republic: it would be simply turning on the z axis
  • [2009/08/06 17:50] Techwolf Lupindo: Hmm...on Radgast, and even the LL client, I can make my avatar point at something with using the rotate keys.
  • [2009/08/06 17:50] Charlette Proto: but I like to face east on every arrival
  • [2009/08/06 17:50] Andrew Linden: well, it has to do with how the data flows... right now the client specifies where the avatar is pointing and the server obeys -- that assumption is hard coded
  • [2009/08/06 17:50] Latif Khalifa: andrew, we are not talking about rotating them freely, just changing the heading
  • [2009/08/06 17:50] Latif Khalifa: ah so the client is authoritative on the rotation
  • [2009/08/06 17:50] Andrew Linden: as it works now the client is authoritative, yes
  • [2009/08/06 17:50] Charlette Proto: like facing a shop entrance
  • [2009/08/06 17:50] reddot99 Republic: ah, that could be an issue, but was it the other way around at one time?
  • [2009/08/06 17:51] Andrew Linden: in order to make it work the server would have to be abel to provide a hints to the client, which could then decide to take the hint, or not
  • [2009/08/06 17:51] Saijanai Kuhn: Andrew, did the puppeteer code override any of this ?
  • [2009/08/06 17:51] Techwolf Lupindo: but why, when sitting on a object that is being moved, the avatar can be rotated without the client permission?
  • [2009/08/06 17:52] Andrew Linden: no, the puppeteer code was all "ViewerEffect" stuff
  • [2009/08/06 17:52] reddot99 Republic: i can force the avatar to turn somewhat, at least on everybody else's screen, if not my own,
  • [2009/08/06 17:52] Andrew Linden: that is, the server pretty much knew nothing about it.
  • [2009/08/06 17:52] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, so it would require that server sends update_heading sort of message which client would then visually represent locally
  • [2009/08/06 17:52] Saijanai Kuhn: so clientside only, but a viewer could send updates to the server, I though, which would send updates to other clients so they could see the animation... or am I wron gthere?
  • [2009/08/06 17:53] Andrew Linden: yes, Latif. The client would have to take the hint and modify its heading accordingly that it sends down to the server.
  • [2009/08/06 17:53] reddot99 Republic: there he has a point,
  • [2009/08/06 17:53] Andrew Linden: Yes Saijania, the "ViewerEffect" info is sent to the server and forwarded to nearby clients.
  • [2009/08/06 17:54] Saijanai Kuhn: KK. but its eyecandy only. Hrmm
  • [2009/08/06 17:54] Andrew Linden: Yes, the ViewerEffect info doesn't influence the collidable body of the avatar, or anything else in the server.
  • [2009/08/06 17:54] Latif Khalifa: its kind of a big missign feature, you can make avatar walk to a target, but not change heading, which makes it look kind of silly walking sideways or backwards :)
  • [2009/08/06 17:55] Meeter: Timecheck : office hours is almost over
  • [2009/08/06 17:55] reddot99 Republic: andrew, does it look like im spinning slightly?
  • [2009/08/06 17:55] Phantom Ninetails: Quick unrelated question, is the delay on llDialog going to be there forever, or is it going to be removed in the future? Delaying it is quite a kick to the face for SVC-3514
  • [2009/08/06 17:55] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3514
  • [#SVC-3514] llLoadUrl (and other LLMessageBox-generating functions) should be per-agent throttled, not delayed
  • [2009/08/06 17:55] Andrew Linden: really? I've forgotten that feature.
  • [2009/08/06 17:55] Charlette Proto: agrees with Latif, just look at hugs etc
  • [2009/08/06 17:55] Latif Khalifa: llMoveToTarget if I remember correctly
  • [2009/08/06 17:56] Latif Khalifa: yeah hug/kiss attachemts do that
  • [2009/08/06 17:56] Andrew Linden: Oh that. Right I remember that.
  • [2009/08/06 17:56] Latif Khalifa: but they can't fix heading, so all sorts of mishaps happen lol
  • [2009/08/06 17:56] Andrew Linden: Yes, llPointAt() is a missing feature.
  • [2009/08/06 17:56] Andrew Linden: As to the delay of llDialog()...
  • [2009/08/06 17:56] reddot99 Republic: could that vehicle attachment hybrid work? that was mentioned some months ago,
  • [2009/08/06 17:57] Andrew Linden: I've also been thinking that we should remove some delays in some script calls.
  • [2009/08/06 17:57] Andrew Linden: I think I've mentioned it to Babbage Linden.
  • [2009/08/06 17:57] Saijanai Kuhn: the code exists both clientside and serverside or we couldn't see what builders were manipulating
  • [2009/08/06 17:57] Andrew Linden: I suspect it will happen eventually when we have better script resource limits and balancing.
  • [2009/08/06 17:58] Phantom Ninetails: I really hope it won't be there forever, 'cause it's slowed down alot of my menu controlled scripts
  • [2009/08/06 17:58] reddot99 Republic: also, i found a easy way to trigger a stack heap that occurs only in lsl
  • [2009/08/06 17:58] Andrew Linden: you'll have to refresh my memory of "vehicle attachment hybrid" reddot99, I don't remember the details.
  • [2009/08/06 17:58] reddot99 Republic: where if you attached a vehicle coded object it would fight with the agent controls
  • [2009/08/06 17:59] reddot99 Republic: erm motion system
  • [2009/08/06 17:59] Andrew Linden: huh reddot99, I wonder if they'll care too much about legacy LSL-only stack heap bugs
  • [2009/08/06 17:59] Andrew Linden: MONO is the new hotness.
  • [2009/08/06 17:59] Andrew Linden: Well, not so new anymore.
  • [2009/08/06 17:59] Andrew Linden: But still the future.
  • [2009/08/06 17:59] reddot99 Republic: yeah, but you still have to convince some folks that mno is much better
  • [2009/08/06 18:00] Phantom Ninetails: Some people are starting to go back to LSL since Mono has these region-crippling performance issues.
  • [2009/08/06 18:00] Charlette Proto: I get an impression that there is little in a way of system roadmap for future developments or overlooked features, someone should look into the big picture beyond 'Philip dreamt this up last night' feature implementation
  • [2009/08/06 18:00] Andrew Linden: Oh right... vehicle overrides agent controls. Hrm...
  • [2009/08/06 18:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to Linden office hours
  • [2009/08/06 18:00] reddot99 Republic: that could be easily turned into the rotation thing perhaps
  • [2009/08/06 18:01] reddot99 Republic: or that autopilot thing thats veiwerside
  • [2009/08/06 18:01] Andrew Linden: Agent controls need work. I'll keep these both in mind for when I revisit those.
  • [2009/08/06 18:01] reddot99 Republic: where you have the option to walk to land if you right click it,
  • [2009/08/06 18:01] reddot99 Republic: that actually turns your avatar
  • [2009/08/06 18:02] reddot99 Republic: if there was a lslfunction to control that. you'd have a even beter system,
  • [2009/08/06 18:02] Andrew Linden: Sometimes I can visualize how to do it, but right now my mind is clouded by exploit errors and file download systems and I can't build the pattern in my mind for fixing the avatar motion stuff.
  • [2009/08/06 18:02] reddot99 Republic: then pointat,
  • [2009/08/06 18:02] Charlette Proto: red the vehicle would be very much a bandaid not an elegant (hehe) solution
  • [2009/08/06 18:03] Andrew Linden: Yeah I agree Charlette, however...
  • [2009/08/06 18:03] reddot99 Republic: much more fun though
  • [2009/08/06 18:03] Andrew Linden: if the vehicle hack worked it would open up all sorts of new content... some of which would be cool
  • [2009/08/06 18:04] Andrew Linden: The degree to which SL content creators repurpose LSL features has always impressed me.
  • [2009/08/06 18:04] Charlette Proto: it could be a fix without clashing with anything, but one needs an explicit solution long term, same as per avatar joint manipulation
  • [2009/08/06 18:04] reddot99 Republic: plus you could set it up so you didnt have to sit on a object to use a wallclimber
  • [2009/08/06 18:04] Andrew Linden: yes
  • [2009/08/06 18:04] reddot99 Republic: i use rot lookat in vehicle based systems a lot,
  • [2009/08/06 18:05] reddot99 Republic: it works better then setrot on nonphysical objects
  • [2009/08/06 18:05] Charlette Proto: if an avatar could behave relative to another avatar (joints) lots of neat things would be possible
  • [2009/08/06 18:05] reddot99 Republic: did simon go into god mode?
  • [2009/08/06 18:06] Charlette Proto: simon is a game god
  • [2009/08/06 18:06] Andrew Linden: ok, I'm going to have to get going.
  • [2009/08/06 18:06] Simon Linden: yeah, I did
  • [2009/08/06 18:06] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
  • [2009/08/06 18:06] Simon Linden: Did I disappear?
  • [2009/08/06 18:06] Phantom Ninetails: Fare well, Andrew
  • [2009/08/06 18:06] reddot99 Republic: not totally,
  • [2009/08/06 18:06] Ardy Lay: Bye Andrew, thanks.
  • [2009/08/06 18:06] Charlette Proto: thanks Andrew and Simon (GODS)
  • [2009/08/06 18:06] Simon Linden: I'm back to mortal status
  • [2009/08/06 18:06] reddot99 Republic: avatar is there, as is your name on llkey2name
  • [2009/08/06 18:06] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming
  • [2009/08/06 18:07] Charlette Proto: hehe watch it Simon; you'll get hungry
  • [2009/08/06 18:07] Simon Linden: I wanted to take a look at these chairs -- it bugs me that they hog script time
  • [2009/08/06 18:07] reddot99 Republic: lol,
  • [2009/08/06 18:07] reddot99 Republic: they contact the table i bet,
  • [2009/08/06 18:08] Charlette Proto: these chairs have more problems than good features
  • [2009/08/06 18:08] Simon Linden: I think its because they take the controls -- those scripts get run more than others
  • [2009/08/06 18:08] Phantom Ninetails: I've noticed that too
  • [2009/08/06 18:08] Ardy Lay: Might compare with Blue's replichair
  • [2009/08/06 18:08] Charlette Proto: GOD chairs
  • [2009/08/06 18:08] Phantom Ninetails: It's handy sometimes, in situations where the region is laggy.. (taking control to get more speed)
  • [2009/08/06 18:09] Simon Linden: Maybe I should make those Adirondack chairs multiply when there is only one empty :)
  • [2009/08/06 18:09] Ardy Lay: Hehe
  • [2009/08/06 18:09] reddot99 Republic: yeah, it lets vehicles and aos run when other scripts are at a near halt
  • [2009/08/06 18:10] reddot99 Republic: does it raise their priority in the script list?
  • [2009/08/06 18:10] Simon Linden: yeah, what happens is the viewer sends up the control event, and the script gets run right away. The same script might get run a 2nd time later in the frame when scripts are normally run
  • [2009/08/06 18:10] Techwolf Lupindo: If you work on these chair, have the emty one a bright different color so one can see there IS an empty chair. :-) Even better, maitain two empty chairs so one done't think they are taking up the last chair.
  • [2009/08/06 18:10] reddot99 Republic: oh really?
  • [2009/08/06 18:11] Simon Linden: The first part is the problem - it might not even be interested in that control even or key
  • [2009/08/06 18:11] reddot99 Republic: tthats why it works in no script areas?
  • [2009/08/06 18:11] Simon Linden: yes, it's getting run due to the control event from the viewer
  • [2009/08/06 18:12] reddot99 Republic: no i meant the run imediately thing,
  • [2009/08/06 18:12] Charlette Proto: better to have an object move etc colour is meaningless in the worst situations - rez delays
  • [2009/08/06 18:12] Simon Linden: Anyway, I have to go as well. Nice to see you all, take care...
  • [2009/08/06 18:12] reddot99 Republic: erm, starts out a different collor and changes when occupied charlette
  • [2009/08/06 18:12] Phantom Ninetails: Fare well, Simon
  • [2009/08/06 18:12] Charlette Proto: byee again Simon
  • [2009/08/06 18:12] Ardy Lay: Thanks Simon, see you later.
  • [2009/08/06 18:12] reddot99 Republic: that would work
  • [2009/08/06 18:12] Simon Linden: bye
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