User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 08 13

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  • [2009/08/13 16:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hey Simon
  • [2009/08/13 16:58] Ardy Lay: Hello
  • [2009/08/13 16:58] Simon Linden: hello
  • [2009/08/13 16:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: I should tell you now, I have a bone to pick with the lindens :)
  • [2009/08/13 16:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: But! I shall be nice about it
  • [2009/08/13 16:58] Techwolf Lupindo: I want the leftovers. :-)
  • [2009/08/13 16:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hey Andrew
  • [2009/08/13 16:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: Everyone must be at SLC
  • [2009/08/13 16:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: ;P
  • [2009/08/13 16:59] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [2009/08/13 16:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: Heya Rex
  • [2009/08/13 16:59] Andrew Linden: hello, not quite everyone is at SLCC today
  • [2009/08/13 16:59] GG Office Hours HUD v1.5: 5:00 PM: Andrew Linden: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine
  • http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/34 (Starts now)
  • [2009/08/13 17:00] Rex Cronon: hiii...
  • [2009/08/13 17:00] Meeter: Welcome to Linden office hours
  • [2009/08/13 17:00] Cerdita Piek waves "hello everyone"
  • [2009/08/13 17:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hey Cerdita :)
  • [2009/08/13 17:00] Ardy Lay: These chairs are HUGE.
  • [2009/08/13 17:00] Fury Rosewood: yes
  • [2009/08/13 17:00] Fury Rosewood: they are
  • [2009/08/13 17:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: Andrew just as a reminder at your request, would you be able to check up on 3077 at some point? :)
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] Yuu Nakamichi: Correction: Rex's hat is *huge*
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] Yuu Nakamichi: Hi Simon, hi Andrew
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] Andrew Linden: Sebastean, you mean MISC-3077? I think I commented on that one today.
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] Rex Cronon: ?
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-3077
  • [#MISC-3077] Meta-Issue: List of Linden-Confirmed Easy Changes/Additions With Large Returns
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-3077
  • [#MISC-3077] Meta-Issue: List of Linden-Confirmed Easy Changes/Additions With Large Returns
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] JIRA-helper: [#MISC-3077] Meta-Issue: List of Linden-Confirmed Easy Changes/Additions With Large Returns
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] Meeter: [#MISC-3077] Meta-Issue: List of Linden-Confirmed Easy Changes/Additions With Large Returns
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: . . . yes, that one
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: Oh!
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm still wearing mine lol
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] Andrew Linden: yeah, I looked them over. There were two that I felt were not easy and should be unlinked
  • [2009/08/13 17:01] Andrew Linden: but I didn't unlink them mysefl
  • [2009/08/13 17:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: Would you like me to go ahead and do that for you Andrew?
  • [2009/08/13 17:02] Yuu Nakamichi: I wonder if move_start/move_end are ont htis list?
  • [2009/08/13 17:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which two were they?
  • [2009/08/13 17:02] Simon Linden: hmm, looks like we have multiple jira gizmos around
  • [2009/08/13 17:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: I took off mine Simon :) I accidentally left it on
  • [2009/08/13 17:02] Andrew Linden: I didn't see move_start/move_end
  • [2009/08/13 17:02] Yuu Nakamichi: I think it shoudl be added then :)
  • [2009/08/13 17:02] Andrew Linden: The two that were too hard were...
  • [2009/08/13 17:02] Yuu Nakamichi: they have been borked forever
  • [2009/08/13 17:03] Andrew Linden: SVC-1406 and SVC-4715
  • [2009/08/13 17:03] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4715
  • [#SVC-4715] JIRA for llRenderText - Rendering Text on a Prim
  • [2009/08/13 17:03] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1406
  • [#SVC-1406] Non-volatile storage for meta-information
  • [2009/08/13 17:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: Issues removed :)
  • [2009/08/13 17:03] Andrew Linden: -3077 is for new features, not bugs.
  • [2009/08/13 17:04] Yuu Nakamichi: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1004
  • [2009/08/13 17:04] Meeter: [#SVC-1004] Behavior of moving_start() and moving_end() is inconsistent.
  • [2009/08/13 17:04] Andrew Linden: The move_start/_end issue is a bug?
  • [2009/08/13 17:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: o.0
  • [2009/08/13 17:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: How did that get on . . .
  • [2009/08/13 17:04] Yuu Nakamichi: I think so Andrew
  • [2009/08/13 17:04] Andrew Linden: ok , thanks for that jira link
  • [2009/08/13 17:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: Didn't even see it there.
  • [2009/08/13 17:04] Yuu Nakamichi: you're welcome
  • [2009/08/13 17:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: Someone must have tacked it on, I'll remove it too.
  • [2009/08/13 17:04] GG Office Hours HUD v1.5: 5:00 PM: Andrew Linden: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine
  • http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/34 (Started 5 minutes ago)
  • [2009/08/13 17:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: I can't seem to find it.
  • [2009/08/13 17:05] Yuu Nakamichi: it's just unreliable - you never know if it works the first time, or only after 10 tries
  • [2009/08/13 17:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: Actually Andrew, I wanted to ask you a few things about [17:03] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4715
  • [#SVC-4715] JIRA for llRenderText - Rendering Text on a Prim
  • [2009/08/13 17:05] Meeter: [#SVC-4715] JIRA for llRenderText - Rendering Text on a Prim
  • [2009/08/13 17:05] Andrew Linden: Sure, go ahead Sebastean
  • [2009/08/13 17:07] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, currently, there are only very inconsistent methods of dynamically producing text. You have to use float text, which isn't good for things like huds or many builds because it's rendered clientside and clips through things, and it doesn't scale with resolution so on smaller screens it appears differently.
  • [2009/08/13 17:07] Yuu Nakamichi: Moon has a repro there https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1004?focusedCommentId=94529&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#action_94529
  • [2009/08/13 17:07] Meeter: [#SVC-1004] Behavior of moving_start() and moving_end() is inconsistent.
  • [2009/08/13 17:07] Yuu Nakamichi: for the move_start/end issue
  • [2009/08/13 17:07] Sebastean Steamweaver: The other alternative is XyText, which, while I'm grateful to the creator and its (several) derivatives, really shouldn't be necessary tomy way of thinking.
  • [2009/08/13 17:07] Sebastean Steamweaver: To be honest, the fact that someone had to create XyText waves red flags that something essential is lacking.
  • [2009/08/13 17:07] Andrew Linden: Yes, good point.
  • [2009/08/13 17:08] Andrew Linden: Don't we have HTML on a face?
  • [2009/08/13 17:08] Yuu Nakamichi: Isn't there something in the works regarding text on prim?
  • [2009/08/13 17:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: Unfortunately no, not yet.
  • [2009/08/13 17:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: That's a close relative request.
  • [2009/08/13 17:09] Sebastean Steamweaver: The thing is I'm not sure that's suitable for things that need fast updates, like numbers from a slider on a HUD.
  • [2009/08/13 17:09] Yuu Nakamichi: I though Nyx had something on the fornt burner
  • [2009/08/13 17:09] Andrew Linden: Huh... I thought I saw a demo of that years ago. But now that I think about it... it was a per-parcel setting (like media on a texture) not per-object.
  • [2009/08/13 17:09] Techwolf Lupindo: Can the textures UUID for XyText be added to the client side UUID textures that supplied with the download? This will allow for no-lag rendering.
  • [2009/08/13 17:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yes, that we do have. We have something where you can set a webpage from an outside URL to display, but it takes parcel media permissions, and affects the whole parcel.
  • [2009/08/13 17:10] Yuu Nakamichi: Tech, in my experience it's the linkmessages that lag XYtext
  • [2009/08/13 17:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: There's no way to dynamically generate text for just one prim.
  • [2009/08/13 17:10] Andrew Linden: Ok, so suppose we had HTML on a prim. Wouldn't that solve the "text on prim face" problem?
  • [2009/08/13 17:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: And, frankly, it makes interfacing a nightmare.
  • [2009/08/13 17:10] Yuu Nakamichi: the fact tha you have to have tons of linked prims
  • [2009/08/13 17:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: If it couldupdate quickly, and be set with a llRenderLinkHTML (llike llSetLinkColor/Alpha), then yes.
  • [2009/08/13 17:10] Andrew Linden: You'd have to host an HTML site for each text you wanted, but many text-on-prim-face things could be done with that, right?
  • [2009/08/13 17:10] Yuu Nakamichi: Andrew - I think not
  • [2009/08/13 17:10] Rex Cronon: i guess wishing for svg on a prim is behyond the realm of possibilities:(
  • [2009/08/13 17:11] Yuu Nakamichi: yes but HTML is not known for its typographical abilities
  • [2009/08/13 17:11] Sebastean Steamweaver: I mean, say you have a slider, and you want the person to be able to see the number their selecting as they're dragging along for a HUD interface
  • [2009/08/13 17:11] Yuu Nakamichi: web typography is still a disaster
  • [2009/08/13 17:11] Sebastean Steamweaver: That needs to be able to update fairly quickly. You can get that kind of functionality with llSEtText calls, but as I mentioned, it doesn't scale, among other issues.
  • [2009/08/13 17:11] Andrew Linden: Ah hrm...
  • [2009/08/13 17:11] Arawn Spitteler: Wouldnt that be a Touch event?
  • [2009/08/13 17:12] Yuu Nakamichi: yeah, I think many people are looking for higher qualty typography
  • [2009/08/13 17:12] Andrew Linden: Right, and web pages can get cached.
  • [2009/08/13 17:12] Andrew Linden: Ok, so they are distinct.
  • [2009/08/13 17:12] Techwolf Lupindo: There is a reason I say that for browser viewing or displaying a page in a wide an audence as possiable, use HTML. For printing, use PDF. Embedding PDF in a web is bad, wrong, and is a real PITA.
  • [2009/08/13 17:13] Sebastean Steamweaver: But you can't have a webpage for HUDs :) HMTL on a prim would solve this, but what I think we need is something that can be generated entirely within scripts.
  • [2009/08/13 17:13] Andrew Linden: Which one should be done first?
  • [2009/08/13 17:13] Yuu Nakamichi: hehe
  • [2009/08/13 17:13] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think we're already fairly close to having a webpage on a prim. I think typography would be a good first step towards it.
  • [2009/08/13 17:13] Sebastean Steamweaver: Plus, it would reduce a lot of script usage.
  • [2009/08/13 17:14] Yuu Nakamichi: Seb, are you looking for print quality typography?
  • [2009/08/13 17:14] Charlette Proto: surely styled programmatic text on prim face eg a poster should ba possible without HTTP
  • [2009/08/13 17:14] Sebastean Steamweaver: Most Xy/Derivative scripts tend to use a lot of slave scripts to get around llSEtTexture and llSetLinkPP delays.
  • [2009/08/13 17:14] Techwolf Lupindo: HTML on a prim....is there a safe way of doing that with exposing all the web page security problems on the client side? There are many web site that expoits holes to gain info.
  • [2009/08/13 17:14] Sebastean Steamweaver: I agree Charlette, I don't think this should be dependent on webpages.
  • [2009/08/13 17:14] Techwolf Lupindo: with=without
  • [2009/08/13 17:15] Sebastean Steamweaver: Unless we're talking about programming the HTML into the script to display somehow.
  • [2009/08/13 17:15] Sebastean Steamweaver: Though, that could potentially use a lot of precious script memory.
  • [2009/08/13 17:15] Yuu Nakamichi: yeah, I think most users looking for a better solution are looking for something distinct from piping web pages into SL
  • [2009/08/13 17:15] Andrew Linden: Huh... interesting idea Sebastean.
  • [2009/08/13 17:15] Charlette Proto: or are we going off-world with these aspirations and a shop will become a website rether than a huge collection of textures (very cumbersome atm)
  • [2009/08/13 17:15] Andrew Linden: suppose regular (remote) HTML on a prim was working... how hard would it be to allow the object to "host" the HTML?
  • [2009/08/13 17:16] Charlette Proto: we have talked about primface text in UI meetings for a year or more, including HUD UI text
  • [2009/08/13 17:16] Andrew Linden: But you'd need some easy way to update that HTML for that slider idea.
  • [2009/08/13 17:17] Techwolf Lupindo: If you going to allow HTML in the prim, you have to make sure whatever rendering engine you use in the client can withstand all the security hacks out there.
  • [2009/08/13 17:17] Sebastean Steamweaver: Exactly, and I don't think people will be wanting to spend script server URLs just to display some text.
  • [2009/08/13 17:17] Andrew Linden: Oh really Charlette? I haven't given the idea much thought myself yet.
  • [2009/08/13 17:17] Andrew Linden: I'm still having little "Ah ha!" moments that are probably years old now for others.
  • [2009/08/13 17:17] Sebastean Steamweaver: Also, if you're selling an interface, you can't have multiple users just viewing the same page at once.
  • [2009/08/13 17:17] Rex Cronon: u don't even have to allow it to run javascripts:)
  • [2009/08/13 17:18] Simon Linden: techwolf - definitely. There would have to be limits on what your html can do
  • [2009/08/13 17:18] Sebastean Steamweaver: I guess, the idea I'm trying to communicate is that I thikn this needs to be entirely local to the script, otherwise it becomes needlessly combersome for the many uses it'd be put to.
  • [2009/08/13 17:18] Andrew Linden: but Sebastian, how would you do the "slider position --> number on face" without a server-side script?
  • [2009/08/13 17:18] Arawn Spitteler: HTML on a Script? Wouldn't it be a client side feature?
  • [2009/08/13 17:19] Andrew Linden: Are you suggesting tying a viewer-side UI slider to the text on the face?
  • [2009/08/13 17:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think I pput avery short list on my JIRA, but honestly, you can't walk 3 meters without seeig an application for it.
  • [2009/08/13 17:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: Oh, no no, I thought you were talking about http_in :)\
  • [2009/08/13 17:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hosting a webpage from the script itself
  • [2009/08/13 17:19] Charlette Proto: which would be a better solution (sim performance) to eg shops, HTTP requests or an inworld LSL built text say programatic via IM price/item description and permission attributes in a poster
  • [2009/08/13 17:19] Techwolf Lupindo: I idea I just thought of, though others may have though of it too. A way for a script to make a html call to a .png and said .png would be displayed on the prim face. The html server that the script call can generate the .png dymaticially.
  • [2009/08/13 17:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: But that also causes issues if you need to display more than one thing. Like a user's name, any number of numbers or vectors, interface options, etc.
  • [2009/08/13 17:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: But do you really want to make this dependent on servers?
  • [2009/08/13 17:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think it should just be easily accessible, like llSetText is.
  • [2009/08/13 17:21] Sebastean Steamweaver: Or are you talking about backend, Tech?
  • [2009/08/13 17:21] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think the issue with generating a texture is that you have to create an asset. If you have "streaming" numbers, that's a lot of assets.
  • [2009/08/13 17:21] Andrew Linden: Well, you were saying you wanted it done without adding server-side script load.
  • [2009/08/13 17:21] Andrew Linden: So I'm a little confused on how you actually instrument the text changing on the object.
  • [2009/08/13 17:22] Charlette Proto: I like the idea of LSL display updates than HTTP, but prolly that is harder when it comes to bridging inworld/out commerce
  • [2009/08/13 17:22] Sebastean Steamweaver: Andrew, actually, here, I have something that may help
  • [2009/08/13 17:23] Charlette Proto: without server load? wouldn't 100s of HTTP requests eg for posters in a shop load the server with comms
  • [2009/08/13 17:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OSSL_TextureDrawing
  • [2009/08/13 17:23] Techwolf Lupindo: Then do the fuction client side. In a fanshion sililer to what is done for vidio. The lslscript send a URL to a .png/.jpg/etc. to the SL client, the client then fetches the file and display just like any o ther texture. WIll good idea, must be KILLED. JUst though of a HUGE secuiry hole in it.
  • [2009/08/13 17:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: This is something that's apparently been implemented on OpenSim (so I've been told)
  • [2009/08/13 17:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: It wouldn't be something quite so complicated as this.
  • [2009/08/13 17:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: That's more of a scripted whiteboard
  • [2009/08/13 17:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which, is a little heavy for what we're looking at.
  • [2009/08/13 17:24] Simon Linden: yeah, you could farm the IPs of anyone that walks by if the viewer is doing the fetch
  • [2009/08/13 17:24] Charlette Proto: Seb you may be confusing real-time drawing and display issues here
  • [2009/08/13 17:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: Oh, I'm not looking for "realtime drawing" - hence the explanation.
  • [2009/08/13 17:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: Just text generation that can be updated quickly.
  • [2009/08/13 17:26] Charlette Proto: surely once we resort to outwarld info sources, outwarld even management (clicking) eg transactions come into play as well
  • [2009/08/13 17:26] Arawn Spitteler wonders if svc-22 and svc-93 have yet been ritually mentioned: I was looking at CAMERA_DECOUPLED Flag, yesterday, and might test, is camera coupled or not, when the prim isn't a vehicle?
  • [2009/08/13 17:26] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22
  • [#SVC-22] Vehicles crossing region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
  • [2009/08/13 17:26] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-93
  • [#SVC-93] llSetPrimitiveParams PRIM_ROTATION and llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
  • [2009/08/13 17:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, if you're dealing with webpages, yes, but here, we're looking for something more along the lines of llSEtText, but something that can be displayed ona prim side instead of floating in space, and being non-resolution scaling.
  • [2009/08/13 17:27] Charlette Proto: precisely Seb, RT drawing and programable display are two different problems
  • [2009/08/13 17:27] Andrew Linden: No they hadn't been mentioned yet Arawn.
  • [2009/08/13 17:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: Ah, I see what you're saying
  • [2009/08/13 17:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: Isn't there a wiki entry on programmatic textures?
  • [2009/08/13 17:28] Sebastean Steamweaver: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Programmatic_Textures
  • [2009/08/13 17:28] Andrew Linden: So in the OSSL_TextureDrawing feaure the instructions are sent to the client and it does the rendering?
  • [2009/08/13 17:29] Andrew Linden: oh no... there is an example where the region name is queried and put into the texture
  • [2009/08/13 17:29] Andrew Linden: so it is done server-side, then the client downloads the texture when it is done
  • [2009/08/13 17:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hmm
  • [2009/08/13 17:30] Meeter: Timecheck : office hours is half over
  • [2009/08/13 17:30] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think having the client render the text would probably be what we were looking for.
  • [2009/08/13 17:30] Charlette Proto: this wiki provides a workaround to making posters and signs instead of using fixed (uploaded) textures drawing is another thing when it comes to interaction events (buy buttons etc)
  • [2009/08/13 17:30] Sebastean Steamweaver: Or would that bring in the resolution problem inherent to llsetText?
  • [2009/08/13 17:30] Andrew Linden: the server could "preprocess" it before it sends the instructions to the client
  • [2009/08/13 17:31] Andrew Linden: but then you lose the "dynamic" possibilities of the text on the face
  • [2009/08/13 17:31] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yeah
  • [2009/08/13 17:31] Sebastean Steamweaver: And it puts a lot of load on the server. especially if you have several things updating at once.
  • [2009/08/13 17:31] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, I imagine it would, at least.
  • [2009/08/13 17:31] Sebastean Steamweaver: Then there'd be garbage collection.
  • [2009/08/13 17:32] Andrew Linden: not necessarily... you might be able to fork the rendering onto another process on another server if you were clever
  • [2009/08/13 17:32] Andrew Linden: but then you'd need an army of renering servers on the side
  • [2009/08/13 17:32] Charlette Proto: my main concern is efficient support for commerce functions and UI functions in HUDs - event processing beyond pie menu
  • [2009/08/13 17:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hehe, not a bad idea in itself, but probably impractical at this point.
  • [2009/08/13 17:32] Charlette Proto: 'clever' seems like a can of worms
  • [2009/08/13 17:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: My concerns are along the same lines as Charlette, though I think that the same functions that could be applied to HUDs could be applied to a plethora of other uses that aren't HUD-related.
  • [2009/08/13 17:33] Charlette Proto: lag lag lag, what impact would these scenarios have
  • [2009/08/13 17:33] Andrew Linden: interesting feature idea. I've got a few ideas on how to do parts of it, but don't have a good picture in my head how it would all work.
  • [2009/08/13 17:33] Andrew Linden: I'll have to think about it some more.
  • [2009/08/13 17:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: All righty, I really appreciate you taking the time Andrew.
  • [2009/08/13 17:34] Sebastean Steamweaver: As I said before, it's kind of an essential tool that's lacking in SL, considering the alternatives people have been coming up with.
  • [2009/08/13 17:34] Andrew Linden: Simon, you got any announements?
  • [2009/08/13 17:34] Charlette Proto: inworld obcects and HUDs have practically the same interactivity needs (on the event processing side)
  • [2009/08/13 17:35] Simon Linden: Nope, nothing much going on
  • [2009/08/13 17:35] Andrew Linden: Arawn, I was trying to look into the CAMERA_DECOUPLED question today...
  • [2009/08/13 17:35] Arawn Spitteler: Scriptable Pie seems an idea, but another time
  • [2009/08/13 17:36] Andrew Linden: I got sidetracked before I completed it, but it looks like the viewer no longer handles the CAMERA_DECOUPLED hint that the server sends... I couldn't find any mention of decoupled camera in the viewer code.
  • [2009/08/13 17:36] Andrew Linden: I have no idea when that fell out of the SL client code.
  • [2009/08/13 17:36] Charlette Proto: also what do you think of the security implications of HTTP serving from prim in combination with rendering textures from HTTP requests - I see a miriad of lag tools emerging from that
  • [2009/08/13 17:36] Arawn Spitteler: I just don't know what it does. Appearently, my cycle needs it, so I don't spin, but do non-vehicles get that option?
  • [2009/08/13 17:36] Andrew Linden: But it looks like the viewer crew dropped it along the way.
  • [2009/08/13 17:36] Andrew Linden: The fact that there wasn't an uproar about broken content has me puzzled.
  • [2009/08/13 17:36] Arawn Spitteler: So I should try decoupled in both 1.23.4 and in Snowglobe?
  • [2009/08/13 17:37] Andrew Linden: Doesn't look like it does anything right now.
  • [2009/08/13 17:37] Andrew Linden: Well, i was looking in the 1.23 codebase and didn't find any reference to it.
  • [2009/08/13 17:37] Arawn Spitteler: When did we mention the spinning rotational problems?
  • [2009/08/13 17:37] Andrew Linden: If 1.23 doesn't have it, I doubt snowglobe still has it.
  • [2009/08/13 17:38] Techwolf Lupindo: I though that was reddot99 that was asking about that?
  • [2009/08/13 17:38] Andrew Linden: Yeah, reddot99 had asked about it.
  • [2009/08/13 17:38] Arawn Spitteler: Yeah, but I was looking at the LSLWiki, and got curious
  • [2009/08/13 17:39] Andrew Linden: I'll try to finish that investigation. I wasn't able to finish it today.
  • [2009/08/13 17:39] Yuu Nakamichi: what is it supposed to do Andrew?
  • [2009/08/13 17:40] Andrew Linden: As I recall it was a hint to the viewer...
  • [2009/08/13 17:40] Andrew Linden: it was supposed to allow the vehicle to be steered by mouse motions, but the camera wasn't supposed to rotate, or something like that.
  • [2009/08/13 17:41] Arawn Spitteler: It's a vehicle flag, so the mouselook continues in the direction it was directed, rather than turning with the vehicle. I wonder if people just don't steer by mouse
  • [2009/08/13 17:41] Andrew Linden: So the client would split the "direction" of the look... it would send a different value to the server than it was actually using itself to render. That's what I recall but it has been years since I've thought about it.
  • [2009/08/13 17:41] Arawn Spitteler built a rail vehicle that steers by mouse, but didn't know about that flag
  • [2009/08/13 17:42] Charlette Proto: I realise there is an NDA on viewer 2, but how different is it Andrew/Simon, what should we expectc in terms of majority of JIRA ideas/bugs - does it all go down the wastepaper bin????
  • [2009/08/13 17:43] Andrew Linden: Charlette, to be honest I haven't even tried it yet, or seen any screenshots.
  • [2009/08/13 17:43] Andrew Linden: I've been too busy to take up any time playing with a new viewer that I'm sure others have much stronger opinions about.
  • [2009/08/13 17:43] Andrew Linden: I'm going to wait until all the "issues" are figured out that tnere is plenty of polish.
  • [2009/08/13 17:44] Andrew Linden: er... figured out and there is lots of polish.
  • [2009/08/13 17:44] Charlette Proto: but do you have any idea of what its code is branched from or is it all new, otherwise we are wasting time and creating a documentation mess
  • [2009/08/13 17:44] Simon Linden: Well, I wouldn't work too hard on UI issues, since there's been a lot of work to make it easier to use and figure out
  • [2009/08/13 17:44] Techwolf Lupindo: Now matter how much you polish a turd, it still a turd. :-)
  • [2009/08/13 17:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well hopefully SL09 isn't a turd ;)
  • [2009/08/13 17:45] Andrew Linden: Now now Techwolf, let's not jump to any turdy conclusions ;-)
  • [2009/08/13 17:45] Techwolf Lupindo lol
  • [2009/08/13 17:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: Do you have any idea when the BSI members will start to be recruited for QAing? That's been something I've been wanting to keep up on.
  • [2009/08/13 17:45] Charlette Proto: easier to use and figure out (noobs) I've heard for a year, but that means nothing to me
  • [2009/08/13 17:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: I also applied for BSI but never got invited :(
  • [2009/08/13 17:46] Simon Linden: That's really the reason this one is a bigger leap ... the current viewer has been patched and tweaked so much they decided to do a more major overhaul
  • [2009/08/13 17:46] Andrew Linden: I think the UI is changing a lot in the new viewer. Yes, it is probably not worth submitting too many patches for the old UI. But perhaps people on the "front" have a different take.
  • [2009/08/13 17:46] Simon Linden: I don't know what exactly is planned, but there's likely to be some news about over the next few days with SLCC
  • [2009/08/13 17:46] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think something fresh and new will be nice. Perhaps in this new viewer, we won't have to close the entire client after a disconnect just to log back in ;)
  • [2009/08/13 17:47] Techwolf Lupindo: I hope they allow foaters to be move to anywhere, including second monitor
  • [2009/08/13 17:47] Sebastean Steamweaver: And a dropdown menu of login names :D
  • [2009/08/13 17:48] Andrew Linden: If that were a feature Techwolf I suspect I would have heard about it. It is not included, as far as I know.
  • [2009/08/13 17:48] Charlette Proto: I'd love a separate 3D window (many; plan elevation etc) to add to Tech's just like real apps ahve
  • [2009/08/13 17:49] Andrew Linden: I doubt they've tackled the "login with different account without restarting the app" problem.
  • [2009/08/13 17:49] Arawn Spitteler wishes for an extensible wish list, and maintainable code
  • [2009/08/13 17:49] Charlette Proto: but I suppose all these ideas discussed re current viewer weren't even looked at by BigSpaceship peeps
  • [2009/08/13 17:50] Arawn Spitteler: I'd like a gesture to change groups and outfits, and gesture options, but don't know how much of that is server side and how uch client
  • [2009/08/13 17:50] Techwolf Lupindo: Is there a cap/command/request that the client can send to the server to send all object and not do any culling whatso ever? This would help with too early culling issues and allow for huge parmatic photos.
  • [2009/08/13 17:50] Andrew Linden: If they had solved that I think we would have been giving Jonathan Linden some flack about not getting it done himself.
  • [2009/08/13 17:50] Simon Linden: Actually I'm pretty sure they were, Charlette. BS didn't impress me that much, but the people working on the design really did seem to know about a lot of the UI issues
  • [2009/08/13 17:50] Sebastean Steamweaver: Being able to browse and add/remove/edit object contents in inventory would be nice too :) Objects like folders. Would solve many rez-change headaches.
  • [2009/08/13 17:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: Heh, I'll just JIRA these things ;P I dont mean to detract for Office hours hehe.
  • [2009/08/13 17:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: from*
  • [2009/08/13 17:51] Andrew Linden: That is definitely not a part of the new viewer Sebastean, since it would take significant server work.
  • [2009/08/13 17:52] Charlette Proto: so will this viewer09 have a design roadmap or will it evolve like the original Ad-Hok eg is the facial gesture from vid feature roadmapped and being designed to support other gesture computing concepts or will it just be tacked-on
  • [2009/08/13 17:52] Simon Linden: The inventory window is getting a bunch of attention, I know
  • [2009/08/13 17:53] Andrew Linden: Charlette, I think it has a design roadmap. But it isn't a lot of new "features" as far as I know.
  • [2009/08/13 17:53] Charlette Proto: but will the new inventory have prerendered item previews (surely a server thing)
  • [2009/08/13 17:53] Andrew Linden: Not as far as server-client interactions anyway.
  • [2009/08/13 17:53] Charlette Proto: any idea when the 'roadmap' will be made publc?
  • [2009/08/13 17:54] Sebastean Steamweaver: PRobably the conference, at least a hint.
  • [2009/08/13 17:54] Andrew Linden: there aren't a lot of server changes going into the SL09 work. It is mostly client-side overhaul.
  • [2009/08/13 17:54] Charlette Proto: so we are expecting a launch there?
  • [2009/08/13 17:54] Andrew Linden: No I don't have any idea. SLCC seems like a good time/place to say something.
  • [2009/08/13 17:54] Andrew Linden: Hopefully they'll talk about it there.
  • [2009/08/13 17:55] Meeter: Timecheck : office hours is almost over
  • [2009/08/13 17:55] Simon Linden: I'm out of the viewer-loop as well. I do think more info will be coming out at SLCC, however, so there's like to be some blog posts soon
  • [2009/08/13 17:55] Charlette Proto: so how one improve eg Inventory without additional server support (preview textures and item attributes)?
  • [2009/08/13 17:55] Andrew Linden: Seriously, I only speculate. I've been sorta actively ignoring SL09 stuff that happens to fall into my email box. I get way too much email as it is.
  • [2009/08/13 17:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hehe
  • [2009/08/13 17:56] Techwolf Lupindo: Somebody sould "leak" some screenshots. :-)
  • [2009/08/13 17:56] Andrew Linden: yeah, some of the inventory manipulations are purely limited by client
  • [2009/08/13 17:56] Simon Linden: Well, it's pretty easy to brainstorm better ideas about something as simple as organizing landmarks or clothing
  • [2009/08/13 17:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: Having filters, like you would for email, would be wondrful.
  • [2009/08/13 17:56] Andrew Linden: texture preview icons would be possible with client-side only work
  • [2009/08/13 17:56] Simon Linden: yeah, where are those leaked screenshots?
  • [2009/08/13 17:56] Andrew Linden: dunno if they worked on that
  • [2009/08/13 17:56] Charlette Proto: if any of the REAL improvements were to be implemented eg UXIG raised stuff you would have to work of server-side support in my view
  • [2009/08/13 17:57] Techwolf Lupindo: I took a looked at my LM folder. The root LM folder is about 10 pages long...big scroll there.
  • [2009/08/13 17:57] Arawn Spitteler imagines the release date of the roadmap is on hte roadmap screenshot, waiting for its release date: I wonder if NDAs could be used by griefers, to give away pseudo alpha tests?
  • [2009/08/13 17:57] Andrew Linden: Any of you here at SLCC this week?
  • [2009/08/13 17:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm afraid not, I coouldn't afford the time or money.
  • [2009/08/13 17:58] Techwolf Lupindo: Give me $1,500 and I can be there. :-)
  • [2009/08/13 17:58] Arawn Spitteler's hoping to catch a mixed reality event a couple hours ago
  • [2009/08/13 17:58] Charlette Proto: locally stored item previews would tie the user to a given machine without being uploaded to asset servers in between sessions
  • [2009/08/13 17:59] Andrew Linden 's brain thinks about how to do inventory object preview icons
  • [2009/08/13 18:00] Simon Linden: local previews are really a matter of getting the object info without rezzing it ... simulator fetches it from the database as normal, but doesn't add it to the world, and sends the usual info down to the viewer, where it would just have to figure out where to draw it (and rotate, etc)
  • [2009/08/13 18:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to Linden office hours
  • [2009/08/13 18:00] Andrew Linden: Right, as Simon says, the thing that renders it needs access to the assets. It has to download, parse, build, and render.
  • [2009/08/13 18:00] Yuu Nakamichi: a hover of sorts woud be nice
  • [2009/08/13 18:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: Perhaps soemthing like the sculpty preview box, except far less . . . um . . . sucky.
  • [2009/08/13 18:01] Andrew Linden: If I were to do it I'd make it a "web service", and the render mule would be done on an army or render-mule machines that do nothing but handle requests
  • [2009/08/13 18:01] Andrew Linden: for each asset requested it would build (and cache) a preview icon
  • [2009/08/13 18:01] Simon Linden: Why render on other machines? The viewer can do it if it has the usual info
  • [2009/08/13 18:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think Simon is right. Like I said, a window kind of like the sculpty preview window at upload.
  • [2009/08/13 18:02] Andrew Linden: yeah, but why resend the asset to everyone when you could just render it once and cache?
  • [2009/08/13 18:02] Techwolf Lupindo: Superfast preview. Imaged mousing over each object in inventory and getting a preview in a second.
  • [2009/08/13 18:02] Charlette Proto: aren't we like the ultimate web 2 service anyway or hoping to be
  • [2009/08/13 18:03] Andrew Linden: If you've already done the download/massaging of the visible data, and you have the render code written, it seems pretty easy to just crunch it
  • [2009/08/13 18:03] Charlette Proto: we used to have a good sculpty preview about a year plus ago
  • [2009/08/13 18:04] Techwolf Lupindo: There is a move to http protucule, so just do a preview render farm, catche it like any other web accest and use http to fetch it the preview texture.
  • [2009/08/13 18:04] Simon Linden: Hmm, yep, if you're doing a broadcast to many people, but downloading the asset info would let you rotate it on the viewer
  • [2009/08/13 18:04] Andrew Linden: oh hrm... so in the preview window you could rotate the 3D model?
  • [2009/08/13 18:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: Has anyone suggested a sandbox viewer be built? A local-only program where you can build and rez sculpts and texture without ever uploading anything?
  • [2009/08/13 18:04] Andrew Linden: yeah, so all the visible shape/texture info would have to be pulled out of the asset and sent to the viewer
  • [2009/08/13 18:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: That'd be the idea Andrew :)
  • [2009/08/13 18:04] Andrew Linden: ok, better than a little icon
  • [2009/08/13 18:05] Charlette Proto: yup Andrew there was a 3D sculptie preview till 2008
  • [2009/08/13 18:05] Simon Linden: Right, it's essentially the same as a full update message
  • [2009/08/13 18:05] Andrew Linden: well, perhaps the little stripped down geometry data assets could be cached
  • [2009/08/13 18:05] Simon Linden: Server-only info (like scripts) would have to be left behind
  • [2009/08/13 18:06] Andrew Linden: Charlette, what happened to the sculpty preview?
  • [2009/08/13 18:06] Sebastean Steamweaver: Try to upload a sculpt Andrew : )
  • [2009/08/13 18:06] Simon Linden: I have to run ... feel free to stick around everyone. Auto-return will clean up :)
  • [2009/08/13 18:06] Sebastean Steamweaver: Switch to sculpty preview, and see how easy it is to navigate and actually see the sculpty.
  • [2009/08/13 18:06] Andrew Linden has never messed with sculpties, at least not in-world, only in server code
  • [2009/08/13 18:06] Sebastean Steamweaver: Take care Simon!
  • [2009/08/13 18:07] Rex Cronon: tc simon
  • [2009/08/13 18:07] Simon Linden: Bye!
  • [2009/08/13 18:07] Charlette Proto: not sure Andrew, it worked well, but it got scrapped for some reason???
  • [2009/08/13 18:07] Arawn Spitteler wonders which Lindens are at SLCC
  • [2009/08/13 18:07] Andrew Linden: odd. I think Qarl Linden has office hours. If anyone is attending those they should ask him what happened to the sculpty preview.
  • [2009/08/13 18:07] Sebastean Steamweaver: It's an ugly, non-resizable tiny box that really is difficult to work with.
  • [2009/08/13 18:07] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'll be trying to make them tomorrow, I'll bring it up.
  • [2009/08/13 18:08] Charlette Proto: suppose this really is not a forum for my curiocity, just that I feel we wasted a lot of time last year, actually I might take my experience and education elsewhere(RL) as a result of this situation with SL2 etc all too political for me really
  • [2009/08/13 18:09] Andrew Linden: Oh, are the discussions starting to heat up about SL09?
  • [2009/08/13 18:09] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, no one really knows what to expect of it.
  • [2009/08/13 18:09] Andrew Linden: What kind of work was wasted? Jira wrangling? OS dev work?
  • [2009/08/13 18:09] Sebastean Steamweaver: there's been rumors for everything from mesh uploads to enablingmegas.
  • [2009/08/13 18:09] Charlette Proto: there will be a backlash against new technology in Second Life™ hehe
  • [2009/08/13 18:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think people are actually excited about it, but people are making predictions based on wishlists, and no one really knows what's coming.
  • [2009/08/13 18:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: From what I've heard, people want to be excited about it, but they're kind of afraid to be.
  • [2009/08/13 18:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: In fact, that's the wayone person stated it.
  • [2009/08/13 18:11] Arawn Spitteler imagines the LL-RPG, where people are excited to be afraid, and afraid to be excited
  • [2009/08/13 18:11] Andrew Linden: Well, we'll have to wait and see. SL's rate of change used to be even more exciting than these days.
  • [2009/08/13 18:11] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, hopefully the rising competition will help spark some of that.
  • [2009/08/13 18:11] Andrew Linden: Yup.
  • [2009/08/13 18:12] Charlette Proto: alle UI meetings with Benjamin/UXIG JIRA etc seems to have gone by the wayside, no focus or direction found inworld, just a new paradigm from Real Life™ being thrown at us and if it isn't then it sounds like it is - so much for user centric design princiles
  • [2009/08/13 18:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: I was happy to meet Gisele, the new platform manager.
  • [2009/08/13 18:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm hoping perhaps she'll be able to get the ball rolling on a few things.
  • [2009/08/13 18:13] Andrew Linden: There was a discussion in LL internal email about the pros/cons of keeping so much UI overhaul under wraps for so long.
  • [2009/08/13 18:13] Charlette Proto: precisely we will see Andrew and the current population will dictate how the SL09 is received and taught to noobs
  • [2009/08/13 18:13] Andrew Linden: arguments were made that significant changes like this need a tighter feedback loop
  • [2009/08/13 18:13] Andrew Linden: and arguments were made for why our feedback loop was tight enough
  • [2009/08/13 18:14] Sebastean Steamweaver: I kind of assumed that's what they were bringing in BSI-ers for.
  • [2009/08/13 18:14] Charlette Proto: well Andrew in my eyes the situation could not be worse when it comes to GOODWILL
  • [2009/08/13 18:14] Sebastean Steamweaver: Oh, Andrew, who would I speak to to get invited to BSI? I submitted an application a few weeks ago.
  • [2009/08/13 18:14] Andrew Linden: BSI? What is that?
  • [2009/08/13 18:14] Arawn Spitteler: I thought GoodWill was the part of the user experience we never talk about?
  • [2009/08/13 18:14] Sebastean Steamweaver: Battery Street irregulars
  • [2009/08/13 18:15] Sebastean Steamweaver: They do the testing for the clients released between release candidates. Tha alpha testers, basically.
  • [2009/08/13 18:15] Arawn Spitteler: Battery Street Irregulars; I think there's an application form at CG's
  • [2009/08/13 18:15] Andrew Linden: Oh, I don't know what that is 8-O
  • [2009/08/13 18:15] Andrew Linden: I've heard the term.
  • [2009/08/13 18:15] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yeah, I submitted one Arawn :)
  • [2009/08/13 18:15] Arawn Spitteler: Is CG Convenient?
  • [2009/08/13 18:15] Yuu Nakamichi: BSI is very quiet Seb
  • [2009/08/13 18:15] Andrew Linden: CG is at SLCC today.
  • [2009/08/13 18:15] Sebastean Steamweaver: They test teh alpha clients, and there was an announcement a few weeks ago that they were going to be hiring people out of BSI for QA testing on SL09
  • [2009/08/13 18:15] Rex Cronon: i hope that the new GUI will not be a repeat of the viewer that while ago almost blinded people because it was tooo bright:)
  • [2009/08/13 18:15] Arawn Spitteler was secretly turned down, for want of a graphics card
  • [2009/08/13 18:16] Sebastean Steamweaver: I happen to like the silver skin ;P
  • [2009/08/13 18:16] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hehehe
  • [2009/08/13 18:16] Andrew Linden: Unfortunately I don't know much about BSI or how to gain access.
  • [2009/08/13 18:16] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think it was a little bright for some people's gamma settings.
  • [2009/08/13 18:16] Sebastean Steamweaver: Different people reported different reactions, and I think it was a monitor-to-monitor thing.
  • [2009/08/13 18:17] Arawn Spitteler doesn[t know how to adjust his brightness, so can barely see since Windlaugh: CG might be more convenient thatn Alexa, but might be in SF, for ll I know
  • [2009/08/13 18:17] Yuu Nakamichi: I think many of the earlier efforts to involve residents have been falling asleep as LL undergoes personnel changes / is working o the new viewer under wraps
  • [2009/08/13 18:17] Sebastean Steamweaver: Oh, windlight, that reminds me.
  • [2009/08/13 18:17] Sebastean Steamweaver: Don't worry Andrew :) Just a pretty snapshot I took.
  • [2009/08/13 18:17] Andrew Linden: Thanks
  • [2009/08/13 18:17] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thought you'd like to see your office hours in windlight lol
  • [2009/08/13 18:17] Yuu Nakamichi: which relates to the internal discussion Andrew just mentioned
  • [2009/08/13 18:18] Charlette Proto: agrees with Yuu, a bit of a mess and many people sore as a result, good luck LL and BigSpaceShip as far as I'm concerned
  • [2009/08/13 18:19] Arawn Spitteler: I wonder if SL09 is competing with Snowglobe as a development paradigm.
  • [2009/08/13 18:19] Andrew Linden: Ok, I've got to go now.
  • [2009/08/13 18:19] Charlette Proto: I've spend 12 to 20 hours a day in a welcome area so I know who and how Second Life™ is taught to noobs - GOODWILL
  • [2009/08/13 18:19] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
  • [2009/08/13 18:19] Arawn Spitteler: Thanks for remaining
  • [2009/08/13 18:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: This was a good office hour
  • [2009/08/13 18:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thank you Andrew, I appreciate your time
  • [2009/08/13 18:19] Charlette Proto: thanks andrew/Simpon sorry for the....
  • [2009/08/13 18:19] Ardy Lay: Thanks Andrew
  • [2009/08/13 18:19] Cerdita Piek: Thanks Andrew :)
  • [2009/08/13 18:19] Rex Cronon: tc andrew
  • [2009/08/13 18:19] Fury Rosewood: thanks andrew
  • [2009/08/13 18:20] Charlette Proto: have some pleasant watercooler moments at the conf
  • [2009/08/13 18:20] Techwolf Lupindo: :-)
  • [2009/08/13 18:20] Yuu Nakamichi: tc, and let us know what happened to the CAMERA_DETACHED flag :)
  • [2009/08/13 18:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hehe
  • [2009/08/13 18:20] Yuu Nakamichi: if you find out
  • [2009/08/13 18:20] Techwolf Lupindo: This office hour was better then otheres. ty andrew
  • [2009/08/13 18:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm gonna head out myself and get back to work :)
  • [2009/08/13 18:21] Sebastean Steamweaver: Take care all :)
  • [2009/08/13 18:21] Charlette Proto: byee everyone, keep good and enjoy weekend
  • [2009/08/13 18:21] Rex Cronon: it was less populated
  • [2009/08/13 18:21] Rex Cronon: tc
  • [2009/08/13 18:21] Andrew Linden: yup, see you around
  • [2009/08/13 18:21] Cerdita Piek: Take care, see you^^
  • [2009/08/13 18:21] Rex Cronon: bye eveybody
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