User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 10 06

Transcript

[11:08] Simon Linden: .. and hearing what people think is important is really helpful
[11:08] Moon Metty: and you Andrew and Simon, actually listen, that's the best part
[11:08] Moon Metty: :)
[11:09] Ardy Lay: Soounds like I missed something good.
[11:09] Kaluura Boa: Hmmm... Group therapy...
[11:09] Uni Ninetails: Temp prims, ive always wondered what the original reason was for them.... and how the grid would react without them.
[11:09] Andrew Linden: I guess I tend toward option [D] they are legal, but LL should implement some technical solutiosn that make it hard to keep permenant temp-on-rez stuff around.
[11:09] Techwolf Lupindo: Can that stuff be ARed?
[11:10] Liisa Runo: im not asking you to change anything, im just hoping to get some confirmation to current policy on them
[11:10] Liisa Runo: so when we see some laggy temp rezzers, we know if we should AR them or not
[11:10] A group member named Rissa Maidstone owned by the group 'AW Groupies' gave you SmarterTechnology 1, SmarterTechnology 1 (230, 98, 33).
[11:10] Andrew Linden: I had a few ideas once on how to crack down on permenant temp-on-rez items. But I haven't thought about it in a while and forget my train of thought.
[11:10] Uni Ninetails: theres a thought, how difficult would it be to disable there use on a region? like an esate of regions could turn off temp res features...
[11:10] Liisa Runo: your train of thought: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits and http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=305651 and https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2380
[11:11] Rez Prim Limits Behave Erratically
[11:11] Arawn Spitteler: Adjust the Grey Goo fence, to do automatic ARs on such objects?
[11:11] Andrew Linden: Liisa, I don't know the current policy on such behavior.
[11:11] Simon Linden: There may be two different problems with temp rezzers ... intentional bad behavior, and ones that are just inefficient and thus add to region load
[11:11] Liisa Runo: who knows?
[11:11] Andrew Linden: Yeah Arawn, an adjustment to the Grey Goo Fence (GGF)
[11:11] Moon Metty: i think noone wants a laggy region, apart from griefers
[11:12] Uni Ninetails: Temp res Mono scripted resizer... *shudders
[11:12] Techwolf Lupindo: What grey goo fence? ;-)
[11:12] Moon Metty: if people are more aware of what they are rezzing, that could save a lot of ARs
[11:12] Ardy Lay: Uni, seen that.
[11:12] Uni Ninetails: sweet jesus that must suck
[11:12] Techwolf Lupindo: I managed to rez over 1,000 objects per second.
[11:12] Arawn Spitteler: That's an idea, allow the grey goo fence software to compel TP
[11:12] Ardy Lay: I convinced the owner to recompile.
[11:12] Simon Linden: I remember when we did Havok we found some fish rezzers and wave generators that could cripple a region ... the change in the physics engine made old decorative objects into resource hogs
[11:13] Moon Metty: yes, simple physics can bring a region down
[11:13] Liisa Runo: here is extreme example: 400m2 of land can be cut to 25*16m2 plots.

Each 16m2 plots will be owned by different group.

[11:14] Andrew Linden: Actually, a region-wide temp-on-rez prim limit would help.
[11:14] Uni Ninetails: i thought there was one... *eeps.
[11:14] Techwolf Lupindo: Combat sims could set it high and non-combat sim and rentels can set to near zero.
[11:15] Uni Ninetails: oooo good idea
[11:15] Techwolf Lupindo: rentels are the biggest abusers.
[11:15] Liisa Runo: first start would be to make some rules about temp rezzing, so next time if i ask the A, B, C question, someone can ansver to it
[11:15] Ardy Lay: And mainland residents?
[11:15] Andrew Linden: That is, cap the total temp-on-rez items. New rezzes would force old ones to vanish faster. Doesn't help the churn unfortunately, but might make some permenant temp rezzers less useful.
[11:16] Andrew Linden: I'm usually more interested in technical solutions than policy changes.
[11:16] Andrew Linden: Policy changes don't scale well.
[11:16] zeusdinne Baroque: helloooo everyone ☺
[11:16] Moon Metty: mmm, vanish faster ... that would still make for a lot of rezzing
[11:16] Rex Cronon: hi
[11:16] Arawn Spitteler: Vanish Faster makes for more rezzing.
[11:17] Liisa Runo: i dont need policy change, i just need to know the current policy, so i know what to AR and what not
[11:17] Andrew Linden: Liisa, you should ask someone from #support
[11:17] Simon Linden: yeah, I wonder if that would actually make it slower if quicker vanishing leads to more rezzing ... I'm guessing the rez operation is the main performance problem
[11:17] Liisa Runo: alright, thanks, lest change subject
[11:18] Moon Metty: yes, it's probably better to limit the rezzing, just let it fail
[11:18] Twisted Laws: whats new in server development?
[11:18] Arawn Spitteler: Michael might be good, and challenge Torley, and the whole Doc Team, for Documentation
[11:18] Andrew Linden: mmmm... failed rez -- that never causes any problems or confusion
[11:18] Moon Metty: hehehe
[11:18] Simon Linden: We're now on 1.30 here
[11:19] Simon Linden: The pilot regions (around 500, I think) were rolled out today
[11:19] Uni Ninetails: Misc other changes?
[11:19] Simon Linden: Even sims tomorrow, odd (as in number) on Thursday
[11:19] Uni Ninetails: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Server/1.30
[11:19] Arawn Spitteler: Is there a way, to see whether a sim is getting ready for a restart?
[11:19] Andrew Linden: Huh? I thought 1.30 was rolled out already. Simon are you talking about 1.30.1?
[11:19] Simon Linden: ah, right, 1.30.1
[11:20] Arawn Spitteler: I thouht we were on 1.30 since my boat borked?
[11:20] Arawn Spitteler: Is this sim on 1.30.1?
[11:20] Andrew Linden: HelpMenu --> AboutSecondLifeOption says 1.30.0.133784
[11:20] Arawn Spitteler: I can't test my boat, until I've a straight row of sims.
[11:20] Moon Metty: LEET84
[11:21] Ardy Lay: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Beta_Server/1.30
[11:21] Rex Cronon: 13. lucky nr;)
[11:21] Arawn Spitteler: Anyways, I recall the sims are allowed about 1000 prims for Temp and Vehicle.
[11:22] Moon Metty: Andrew , what if the region has a "pool" of temp objects to rez
[11:22] Moon Metty: and when the pool is exhausted, it doesn't rez anymore
[11:22] Moon Metty: and you can check the pool by script
[11:23] Moon Metty: it doesn't have to be exact
[11:23] Andrew Linden: The original reason for temp-on-rez was to enable stuff like gun bullets and explosion schrapnel that did not really matter to the world and would automatically get cleaned up.
[11:23] Arawn Spitteler: llGetSimDetails?
[11:24] Andrew Linden: So, if there were a pool, such that new temp-on-rez could not show up for too many, the shoot-em-up regions would suffer.
[11:24] Uni Ninetails: time to make "game" components, and scrap temp prims?
[11:24] Liisa Runo: yes, temp objects have good uses, some ppl just want to cheat money from LL by makign their house and garden constantly rez as temp, less tier they need to pay
[11:24] Moon Metty: suffer from failed rezzing, or suffer from extreme lag, there must be a compomise somewhere
[11:25] Andrew Linden: Yes, a change is needed. I'm not sure what it is.
[11:25] Andrew Linden: Uni's idea is a good one...
[11:25] Uni Ninetails: breaks content... buuut....
[11:25] Uni Ninetails: would open up more paths for games in the world.
[11:25] Rex Cronon: what if the sims tht have damage enbabled would have more feedoms:)
[11:26] Andrew Linden: but would be a big project
[11:26] Uni Ninetails: hit scan weapons for a start
[11:26] Moon Metty: well, another idea is to provide better tools for people, so they are more aware of what they are doing
[11:26] Andrew Linden: That's a pretty good idea Rex.
[11:26] Moon Metty: noone wants to cause lag
[11:26] Uni Ninetails: ooooo if die tp to <loc>
[11:26] Ardy Lay: But, damage is a parcel setting, not region wide.
[11:26] Liisa Runo: anyway, ill send support ticket and when i get reply, we know what the current policy is, so we know what to AR and what not, and ill release my free temp rezzer detector, so everybody can easily AR their neighbors :P
[11:26] Andrew Linden: Another type of content that is affected by temp-on-rez limits is stuff like Starax's magic wand
[11:26] Andrew Linden: This I know from experience
[11:27] Andrew Linden: Starax's wand would rez temp-on-rez things based upon the chat conversation
[11:27] Moon Metty: yeah, it's awesome
[11:27] Uni Ninetails: heh
[11:27] Arawn Spitteler: I've always changed objects to temp, after rezzing.
[11:28] Andrew Linden: so if you said "hell" it would rez a firey ring and skeletons would drift by
[11:28] Andrew Linden: or something like that
[11:28] Arawn Spitteler: It's useful on borrowed vehicles.
[11:28] Andrew Linden: starax's creations were very detailed and well done
[11:28] Andrew Linden: but they really leaned on the temp-on-rez feature
[11:28] Uni Ninetails: Arawn : somthing im trying to get into the habit of
[11:28] Andrew Linden: and when the temp-on-rez limits first went into place they broke the wand pretty bad
[11:28] Techwolf Lupindo: No hard limits. Let estate owner deside what limits are set too.
[11:29] Uni Ninetails: aye
[11:29] Andrew Linden: Yes, adding more per-region or per-estate settings/throttles would be one way to go
[11:29] Liisa Runo: most estate owners i know dont allow temp rezzing at all, they asked me to make the temp rezzer detector
[11:29] Arawn Spitteler: Temp_On_Rez Limites, even Grey Goo Limits, are Estate Options, that Linen shouldn't monopolize
[11:30] Moon Metty: it will be a complex system of feedback loops
[11:30] Andrew Linden: hrm... disabling all temp-rezzing on a per-region basis would not be too hard to implement
[11:30] Uni Ninetails: it would be helpfull....
[11:30] office hours is half over
[11:30] Andrew Linden: the hardest part is the UI that controls it
[11:31] Arawn Spitteler suggests a slider: I know there's a Temp Rez Game, on Aric Linden's PArcel, you might look at.
[11:31] Andrew Linden: a per-parcel setting wouldn't be too hard... well for rezzes that happen on the parcel
[11:31] Liisa Runo is sorry: did i take over the office hour again with simple A,B,C questiong....
[11:31] Arawn Spitteler: That jus means it's a good question
[11:31] Uni Ninetails: yup
[11:31] Moon Metty: hehe
[11:31] Uni Ninetails: better than regurgitating the same old BS XD
[11:32] Andrew Linden: 'sok Liisa. It isn't like I've got a lot of announcements.
[11:32] Moon Metty: how dare you ask a good question!
[11:32] Andrew Linden: I'm still working on some emergency project. I almost decided to bail again today. No new bugs fixed.
[11:32] Arawn Spitteler: SVC-22 and SVC-93 still have their virtue
[11:32] ROTATION and llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[11:32] Vehicles crossing region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[11:32] Uni Ninetails: Emergency? sec?
[11:32] Lestat Demain: any old bugs fixed?
[11:33] Twisted Laws: svc-22 happened to me yesterday :(
[11:33] Arawn Spitteler: There's a border crossing issue, that it should be related to
[11:33] Andrew Linden: Not a SEC issue Uni, more of an internal tools project on a tight deadline.
[11:33] Uni Ninetails: ahhh ok
[11:33] Techwolf Lupindo: i've been finding bikes and cars in the most unusalle places on mainland the past few days.
[11:34] Twisted Laws: parcel-full was my error
[11:34] Arawn Spitteler: Given what's happened to my boat, that's probably a 1.30.0 issue
[11:35] Andrew Linden: What happened to your boat Arawn/
[11:35] Arawn Spitteler: My Warpos gets triggered by the Changed Event, and it's not working as it did when first tried.
[11:35] Andrew Linden: Is that your "static" vehicle that moves around?
[11:36] Andrew Linden: which change? someone sitting down?
[11:36] Arawn Spitteler: Jumping 320 meters should get a change, yes, running on ObjectDesc, to interface Control and SetPos
[11:36] Arawn Spitteler: If AvatarOnSitTarget is NULL_KEY, it'll try to gethome
[11:37] Andrew Linden: So you change the description and try to handle changed event on that?
[11:37] Arawn Spitteler: It's suppoosed to go home, after borrowing, rather than just rezzing a new one. Zeus is using a more conventional rezzer, but the vehicles have stopped moving
[11:38] Arawn Spitteler: Control puts to llSetObjectDesc, and timer llGetObjectDesc
[11:39] Andrew Linden: ok, and the changed event is when someone stands up -- the changed() event hanlder doesn't always trigger?
[11:39] Moon Metty: mmm, i think i heard Rob say the same
[11:40] Arawn Spitteler: I don't know what's borked, yet.
[11:40] Andrew Linden: They aren't ending up on no-script land are they?
[11:41] zeusdinne Baroque: my vehicle left the rezzer platform rolling on main road and stopped wht seemed lag
[11:41] Arawn Spitteler: It's all no-script, but set to group
[11:42] Arawn Spitteler: BL is abig space, set to one group, or I'd see it always traveled at least 50 meters above grade
[11:42] Andrew Linden: Ok, so it sounds like maybe it is missing a changed event. I'd have to examine it more carefully.
[11:42] BarelyLegal Byron: greetings all
[11:42] Moon Metty: i will ask Rob
[11:42] Arawn Spitteler: Rumor hasit, there' a SEC associated with the bug.
[11:44] Andrew Linden: I haven't heard of it (the rumor or the SEC bug) unless it was the rumor you were talking about last week.
[11:44] Moon Metty hears a thunder in the distance
[11:45] Simon Linden: svc-22?
[11:45] Moon Metty: ooo
[11:45] Evil Titler v2: cobrayogesh Texan needs a new title! To set it, anyone may say the text on /13.
[11:45] Arawn Spitteler wonders how he set the perms: If it's still got the landmark set to buring life, I don't know which way it'll go. That rumor, but I haven't even looked at the Jira, in the past week.
[11:45] Evil Titler v2: Arawn Spitteler has set a new title for cobrayogesh Texan! cobrayogesh will have to live with this until the next chance for it to be changed.
[11:46] Andrew Linden: does anyone know? do changed events persist state changes?
[11:46] Andrew Linden: that is, if the state change happens before the changed event can be handled?
[11:46] Moon Metty: hmmm good question
[11:46] Arawn Spitteler: Any event would be scrubbed, at state change, wouldn't they?
[11:46] Twisted Laws: i think they get cleared on a state change, andrew
[11:46] Moon Metty: i will try to test it Andrew
[11:47] Andrew Linden: Ok that is what I would have thought. If they aren't then maybe there is a race condition where one state can eat the other's changed event.
[11:47] Arawn Spitteler: I might be using state changes, as part of the control flow.
[11:47] Rex Cronon: did the sim crash? why did i recieve message that region is experience some difficulties?
[11:48] Twisted Laws: thats one of the main reasons i use state changes is to clear the events
[11:48] Arawn Spitteler: I didn't get such signal, so you might be right
[11:48] Moon Metty: it's in the line of SVC-4891
[11:48] events accumulate when unhandled
[11:48] Kaluura Boa: It's only you...
[11:48] Simon Linden: Rex - this one?
[11:48] Simon Linden: I didn't get anything
[11:48] Melchizedek Blauvelt: /we 've been fine here Rex
[11:48] Rex Cronon: yes this one
[11:49] Simon Linden: that's odd
[11:49] Arawn Spitteler: It's just you, Rex, you're the only one who knows that the end is near. They laughed at Noah too.
[11:49] Lestat Demain: bah noah just didnt wanna get wet
[11:49] Rex Cronon: is there a set of messages thatn can make the viewer think the sim is going down?
[11:50] zeusdinne Baroque giggles
[11:50] Andrew Linden: Well Arawn, I didn't see anything wrong with the script on a quick examination.
[11:50] Simon Linden: Was it the normal message in the upper right?
[11:50] Rex Cronon: center
[11:50] Andrew Linden: If I get time maybe I'll try to look at it more. But I'm not optimistic.
[11:50] Simon Linden: Do you remember what it said? I can do a quick log scan...
[11:51] Andrew Linden: Someone here last week had a self-friendship offer problem that would not go away.
[11:51] Arawn Spitteler: It didn't get back to Lummerland, from the Omega Concern, and that's just one boarder
[11:51] Arawn Spitteler: It'd gotten to Lummerland, but not to the stage
[11:52] Andrew Linden: I found that friendship offer in the db and nuked it, and then found the code that was probably to blame. Turns out self-friendship was blocked in at least one place, but a new path had been added that was not blocked.
[11:52] Rex Cronon: sorry. id odn't remember the exact words
[11:52] Moon Metty: ah
[11:53] Moon Metty: SVC-3017 is also about an event that's not correctly queued
[11:53] Server drops first touch event when a script returns to a state with a touch_start handler
[11:54] Mojito Sorbet: Ah, glad to know that is not my bug
[11:54] Moon Metty: yesterday i found a repro without state changes
[11:54] Arawn Spitteler: Thats a nuisance on the minesweeper game. Could it be trying to drop the touch_end event?
[11:54] Arawn Spitteler: No State Changes? I thought State Changes were part of the bug
[11:55] Moon Metty: no, the end of the touch is never handled
[11:55] Liisa Runo: if i remember properly, you can "fix" it by placing emty touch event to the anotehr state too
[11:55] Moon Metty: when the script comes back to life, it still thinks the object is being touched
[11:55] Mojito Sorbet: Add a touch event where?
[11:55] office hours is almost over
[11:55] Moon Metty: so touch_start doesn't trigger
[11:55] Arawn Spitteler: touch(integer O) {}
[11:55] Liisa Runo: touch event to the state we are exiting
[11:56] Mojito Sorbet: ok
[11:56] Moon Metty: when you click VERY short, the bug doesn't occur
[11:56] Liisa Runo: but htat is just another roll of duct tape
[11:57] Andrew Linden: sounds like script events need work. Whoever fixes one of the bugs should probably take a swing at some of the others while they are there.
[11:57] Moon Metty: there are more CHANGED flags misbehaving
[11:57] Moon Metty: like CHANGED_TEXTURE when the texture was changed by script
[11:58] Simon Linden: Rex - I didn't find anything interesting in the log. I don't know what happened there
[11:58] Arawn Spitteler: Where are some 1.30.1 sims, that I can test my boat?
[11:59] Rex Cronon: thank you. i guess my connection might have dropped for a few seconds and that made the viewer think the connection to the sim was lost
[11:59] Moon Metty: i have that a lot lately Rex
[11:59] Arawn Spitteler: Rex's discovered the Ghosted Crash
[12:00] Rex Cronon: luckly it doesn't happen so often
[12:00] Simon Linden: I have to run to another meeting ... this one has a few execs so I should be on time :)
[12:00] Uni Ninetails: funny not s much now but over a year ago i could reboot my router, take 5 mins and come back and not be logged out
[12:00] Thank you for coming to Linden office hours
[12:00] Rex Cronon: it might b ebetter if the viewer just said it can't connect to the sim
[12:00] Arawn Spitteler: Zeus just crashed
[12:00] Moon Metty: hehe ok Simon
[12:00] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[12:00] Simon Linden: Thanks all for coming, see you next time
[12:00] Uni Ninetails: thanks Simon
[12:00] Moon Metty: thank you!
[12:00] Twisted Laws: thanks, bye
[12:01] Lestat Demain: i had that in a thunderstorm yesterday
[12:01] Ardy Lay: Too many meetings to get any work done?
[12:01] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I've got some deadline to try to meet. Gotta go.
[12:01] Arawn Spitteler: I've only failed to log off once, so far
[12:01] Ardy Lay: I have been there.
[12:01] Moon Metty: good luck Andrew
[12:01] Uni Ninetails: tc Andrew good luck!
[12:01] Moon Metty: see you on thursday
[12:01] Ardy Lay: Thanks Andrew and Simon

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User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 10 06

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