User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 11 10

Transcript

[11:00] Questar Utu is back.
[11:00] GG Office Hours HUD v1.5: 11:00 AM: Andrew Linden: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine
[11:00] Thank you for coming to Linden office hours
[11:00] Uni Ninetails: Win7 not here. runs fine
[11:00] Vista Questi: hee hee.. how about just a bunch of curious folks?
[11:00] Moon Metty: how can you break a bug?
[11:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I'm pulling 10 FPS when I usually get 15 here.
[11:00] s heard rumors about WarpPos, which is going to cause a howl
[11:00] Techwolf Lupindo: HI simon. Welcome to your fan club meeting. :-D
[11:00] Helena Lycia: Eep?
[11:00] Simon Linden: yeah, usually when this many people turn out it's an angry mob :)
[11:01] Latif Khalifa: we come in peace!
[11:01] Questar Utu: o.o Ooh. A gryphon. I havn't seen one of those on SL before.
[11:01] Moon Metty: hehe, hi Simon
[11:01] Latif Khalifa: here is some pie ;)
[11:01] Ovaltine Constantine: I heard "PosJump" and "angry mob"...has something happened I should know about?
[11:01] Moon Metty: take me to your dealer
[11:01] Arawn Spitteler: I recall CG has a pitch fork, but I don't know if a vendor is available
[11:01] LSL Scientist: i came her to hug Andrew, he fixed posjump, so i dont need to go back to laggy warp, now i hope we ret roll soon
[11:01] LSL Scientist: *hugs*
[11:02] Moon Metty: hey Morg is awake!
[11:02] Helena Lycia: Simon have you just come back from an angry mob?
[11:02] Latif Khalifa: omg simon killed morg!
[11:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Too many seaters? :p
[11:02] Latif Khalifa: lol
[11:02] Moon Metty: hahaha
[11:02] Uni Ninetails: hurray for avatar imposters clipping through prims
[11:02] Thend Destiny: Hello all :)
[11:02] Morgaine Dinova: Blue kitties don't die that easy :P
[11:02] Uni Ninetails: they just turn purple
[11:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Andrew.
[11:03] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[11:03] Simon Linden: Guess we should get a big "Don't Sit On Me" flag
[11:03] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Andrew, Simon :-)
[11:03] Techwolf Lupindo: change chair colors.
[11:03] Latif Khalifa: or make stuff rez faster? ;)
[11:03] Ardy Lay: Hi Andrew
[11:03] Techwolf Lupindo: So we can say, "Sit in the green chair, its empty"
[11:03] Moon Metty: hi Andrew :)
[11:03] Uni Ninetails: Hi Andrew
[11:03] Andrew Linden: Hello everyone.
[11:03] Thend Destiny: Looking forward to Show & Tell.. Uh, this IS Show & Tell, right?
[11:03] Helena Lycia: Hello ANdrew
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: 31 agents already. Someone must have advertised free doughnuts
[11:04] Latif Khalifa: hi andrew
[11:04] Arcane Laval: Hiya
[11:04] Questar Utu: xD
[11:04] Latif Khalifa: free pie, and a good one
[11:04] April Looming: It was the Builder's Brewery group :)
[11:04] Andrew Linden waits for his chair to rez
[11:04] Tristen Mistwood: OUCH!
[11:04] Tristen Mistwood: lol
[11:04] Helena Lycia: Who threw a pie at me?
[11:04] Latif Khalifa: that pie was a bit stale lol
[11:04] Narita Rayna: lol already crashed XD
[11:05] Vista Questi: no special magic for u there, Andrew? :P
[11:05] Moon Metty: just sit on top of Morg, like everyone else
[11:05] GG Office Hours HUD v1.5: 11:00 AM: Andrew Linden: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine
[11:05] Simon Linden: Let's see ... I don't know of any announcements in particular. 1.32 is on the whole grid, and the crash rates look nice and low
[11:05] Questar Utu: .. Wow.
[11:05] Uni Ninetails: yay unressed sculpts
[11:05] Questar Utu: Those are taking a while to load..
[11:05] Questar Utu: Ah, there they went.
[11:05] Helena Lycia pecks at a doughnut
[11:05] Latif Khalifa: mmm tasty doughnuts
[11:05] Questar Utu: Urp. o.o
[11:05] Ardy Lay: That delay was between the simulator and the backend?
[11:06] Vista Questi: I NEVER should have come here under Meerkat.. I bet everything stays gray forever! lol
[11:06] lonetorus Habilis: why so many ppl tonight?
[11:06] Vista Questi: luck of the draw?
[11:06] Helena Lycia: Dunno. I'm hoping they'll tell us soon
[11:06] Lestat Demain: oh wow i see grey people
[11:06] Vista Questi: maybe a Linden needs lots of hugs! ^_
[11:06] Latif Khalifa: simon's giving free hugs?
[11:06] Arawn Spitteler: We have an angry mob, so another twenty people showed up, to see what they're angry about.
[11:06] Thend Destiny: Bears.. We want Bears
[11:06] Simon Linden: The region seems pretty happy - running close to 45 fps. There are a lot of textures to download for everyone
[11:07] lonetorus Habilis: they might be "free" but in reality they never really are
[11:07] Simon Linden: Gotta talk to the bear on the fence if you want mine
[11:07] Andrew Linden: heh, out of habit I just can't "start" these meetings until I'm seated.
[11:07] Uni Ninetails: hehe
[11:07] April Looming: I put my Mysti Tool to bed
[11:07] Andrew Linden: meanwhile, I stand at all my other meetings
[11:07] Latif Khalifa: hehe
[11:07] Arawn Spitteler: Does anyone know the Jira, for objects getting deleted for using WarpPos under 1.32
[11:07] Rufus Steampunk hugs his Simon bear.
[11:07] Lestat Demain: wow lotsa emeralds
[11:07] Arcane Laval: Green and orange colour well together :-D
[11:07] lonetorus Habilis: warppos was nerfed?
[11:07] LSL Scientist: SVC-4984 ?
[11:07]
[11:08] Thend Destiny: Just use my head as a trampoline Mara, I don't mind lol
[11:08] Helena Lycia: If 1.32 is out, I haven't seen any WarpPos objects get deleted (yet)
[11:08] LSL Scientist: not warp, the low lag version
[11:08] Techwolf Lupindo: Been intresting to see if the number of emerald user outnumber SL client users.
[11:08] Lestat Demain: goguens nerfed lol
[11:08] Arawn Spitteler: I think that might be what zapped my boat
[11:08] Andrew Linden: Arawn, you mean posjump? or warpos?
[11:08] Vista Questi: popular these days, isn't it. :)
[11:08] Mara Neddings: apologies
[11:08] Thend Destiny: ;)
[11:08] Helena Lycia: I only use WarpPos, didn't know it was safe to use PosJump (seems like it's not)
[11:09] Andrew Linden: I claimed a week or so ago that I didn't break posjump, however I discovered that it was indeed my fault.
[11:09] Latif Khalifa: hehe
[11:09] Questar Utu: I've never heard of PosJump. o.o
[11:09] Andrew Linden: I put comments in the public jira SVC-4984
[11:09] LSL Scientist: i knew it was you, your the only one who seem to do anything :P
[11:09] lonetorus Habilis: PITCHFORKS AT THE READY!!
[11:09] Andrew Linden: it is fixed in server-1.32.1 which should be out... in a week or two, not sure of the exact timeline.
[11:10] LSL Scientist: tomorrow , plz plz plz
[11:10] Latif Khalifa: how is it going with the simfreeze problem debugging and solving?
[11:10] Thend Destiny: Anything else in Server 1.32.1?
[11:10] Moon Metty: the jira is already set to "fixed" , it should be fix pending as long as it isn't on agni
[11:10] Andrew Linden: LSL, you mean I'm the only one who seems to *break* anything. Right? ;-)
[11:10] Arcane Laval: lol
[11:10] Andrew Linden: There is very little in server-1.32.1, as per most point releases -- we only make them when we have to
[11:10] Lestat Demain: Sim Status: Sandbox Goguen was starting now down << like it has been all morning
[11:10] Latif Khalifa: break stuff is part of doing work... :D
[11:11] Andrew Linden: however I think there is at least one public jira bug fixed there... lemme look it up
[11:11] Thend Destiny: Neato
[11:11] Arawn Spitteler: Others don't do enough o break anything
[11:11] LSL Scientist: no no, your the only linden who seem to edit the code, i often get "i can fix that yet, i got more important fixes to do" gives impression your doing all the work
[11:11] LSL Scientist: cant*
[11:11] Simon Linden: Speaking of breaking, I had a question for everyone ... right now STATUS_BLOCK_GRAB applies only to an individual prim, but the docs say it should apply to the whole object
[11:11] Simon Linden: We have someone looking at it, but are paranoid about breaking stuff
[11:11] Thend Destiny: Sounds like a Street Fighter move
[11:12] Kaluura Boa: Yeah... A bit stupid
[11:12] Arawn Spitteler: We should hav a choice
[11:12] Helena Lycia: I'd like to be able to use that
[11:12] Simon Linden: So may add STATUS_BLOCK_GRAB_WHOLE_OBJECT or something to block all prims
[11:12] Helena Lycia: (at object level)
[11:12] Andrew Linden: Oh... it is a security bug that was fixed in server-1.32.1. No comment.
[11:12] Thend Destiny: Ty
[11:12] Simon Linden: Would that make sense?
[11:12] Kaluura Boa: There isn't much use to block the grab of only one prim in an object... No?
[11:13] Arawn Spitteler: I've heard a rumor, that WarpPos ran into trouble, under 1.32, but don't know the Jira.
[11:13] Latif Khalifa: Simon, don't break scripted touch with that stuff /me seem to recall some grab fixes doing that
[11:13] Helena Lycia: On a related note (possibly) I remember someone once talking about stopping people using Edit select to ahlt vehicles unless they were the land over or Estate Manager
[11:13] Helena Lycia: Did anything ever come of that?
[11:13] Latif Khalifa: Arawn, my teleports seem to work fine (they use warppos)
[11:13] Questar Utu: Does block grab also block holding onto a prim, just by clicking on it? Because I notice that vehicles get a hard time from that due to mischevious people. <. <
[11:13] LSL Scientist: warp works, the low lag and fast posjump version of it is borked
[11:13] Andrew Linden: Not yet Helena, however I was hoping to get to that soon... maybe even next week.
[11:14] Simon Linden: OK, our internal discussions went along that path ... don't touch the existing behavior, but update the specs to match it, and add a new STATUS_BLOCK_GRAB_ALL or something for the way it was supposed to work
[11:14] Helena Lycia: Great :)
[11:14] Arawn Spitteler: My boat, for Burning Life, ran into a lot of trouble, and hasn't owrked since 1.30, but dissappeared, about when 1.32 appeareed
[11:14] Latif Khalifa: Simon, sounds like a sound descision
[11:14] Moon Metty: sounds good Simon
[11:14] Kaluura Boa: Yep...
[11:15] Simon Linden: Thanks, I'll pass that along
[11:15] Andrew Linden: What about the "corner case" for the proposed fix for STATUS_BLOCK_GRAB_WORLD? Did we make a decision on how that should work?
[11:15] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, any news on sim freezes, ie making rez of prims and scripts async/threaded?
[11:15] Helena Lycia: Ooo, please say you've got a fix for that
[11:16] Andrew Linden: The question is... suppose one prim sets STATUS_BLOCK_GRAB, then the root prim calls STATUS_BLOCK_GRAB_WORL (or whatever it is called) setting it TRUE, then sets it FALSE... does the original per-child-prim STATUS_BLOCK_GRAB status survive or not?
[11:17] Mara Neddings: any fix for no voice after viewer upgrade. applied all fixes suggested...no joy
[11:17] Moon Metty: i would say, let the individual prims override the global setting
[11:17] Andrew Linden: No fixes for sim freezes, however the are some people looking into it. I thinhk they've deployed some profiling simulators to the preview grid (aditi)
[11:17] Moon Metty: for flexibility
[11:18] Latif Khalifa: hmm to bad, sounds like the fix for freezes is not imminent .(
[11:18] Simon Linden: I was thinking the last script that calls the function wins in that case ... essentially the same as the last person to turn on or off the lights gets control of them
[11:18] Thend Destiny: I got a good one - any fixes for Group Chat lag in the near-ish future?
[11:18] Andrew Linden: dunno about any voice bugs related to viewer upgrade.
[11:18] Lestat Demain: umm wots the point in profiling grids no-ones using?
[11:18] Rufus Steampunk: Just curious. Is this a proper place to ask a question about server side lag and traffic through hollow prims? Does it cause lag? And if so, well then I have a second question.
[11:19] Andrew Linden: Yes, this is the right place Rufus.
[11:19] Moon Metty: but Simon, that can do bad things when scripts start in a random order, during loading
[11:19] Helena Lycia: Aprofiling won't help when the cause is a TP or a logon/logoff action though
[11:19] LSL Scientist: Simon, that sounds unreliable, and complex to script to be reliable, i vote for the behavior Moon mentioned
[11:19] Moon Metty: it's best to have a time-independent mask
[11:19] Andrew Linden: Concave shapes cause more lag than convex ones. However it shouldn't criple the simulator unless you're making lots of them.
[11:20] Andrew Linden: And, if you do try to kill the simulator performance with physics, it will try to "recover" by temporarily convexifying your concave prims... don't rely on the concavity of your objects.
[11:20] April Looming: Is a hollow cylinder considered convex or concave?
[11:21] Andrew Linden: hollow = concave
[11:21] Andrew Linden: no cavity = convex
[11:21] Lestat Demain: lol depends on which side of the cage your on
[11:21] Simon Linden: I didn't see the other idea, but I realize order-of-execution becomes an issue. It's the same with llSetText() and a lot of other functions
[11:22] Rufus Steampunk: What about traffic underneith half of a sideways hollow cylinder... not through the half that is still drawn, but through the half that is not due to start path and end path?
[11:22] Andrew Linden: order of operation makes sense, and is easier to implement (for the STATUS_BLOCK_GRAB discussion)
[11:23] Andrew Linden: Rufus, could you elaborate on that? What do you mean by "traffic"? Avatar or other objects moving?
[11:23] Rufus Steampunk: mostly avatars
[11:23] Andrew Linden: Anything moving through or nearby a concave object causes the physics engine to do more work.
[11:23] Latif Khalifa: i think he means if you make a tunnel out of the half of a hllow cylinder and walk through this tunnel with an avatar without actually touching the cylinder?
[11:23] April Looming: How many hollow objects can you put out before the lag is noticable? I used a lot in my store build, so I'm worried...
[11:24] Andrew Linden: The extra work is "measureable" but you probably need a pile of the objects to measure it.
[11:24] LSL Scientist: maybe easier to imlement, but forces us to make the scripts more complex, link messages to make sure the order goes like we want to
[11:24] Helena Lycia: So using hollow cylindars to make tunnels is bad?
[11:24] Thend Destiny: And making them Phantom will stop that lag?
[11:25] Andrew Linden: April, if the concave objects are static ([ ] Physics checkbox is not checked) and there is nothing moving near the concave objects then they don't contribute much extra to lag.
[11:25] Andrew Linden: Phantom can reduce some lag... the collision checks still happen, but they are culled out early.
[11:25] April Looming: whew!
[11:25] Andrew Linden: "Phantom" actually means "collides with terrain only".
[11:26] Vista Questi: would that also appl to megaprims , as well?
[11:26] Arawn Spitteler: Does Hollow also cull collisions?
[11:26] Andrew Linden: If they are static and phantom... then they don't even collide with the terrain.
[11:26] Andrew Linden: Arawn, you're asking how collisions are actually calculated for hollow objects?
[11:26] Arcane Laval: Say you have 70 hollow cubes, and various avatars walking around them, how much will that effect sim performance?
[11:27] Helena Lycia: I wish I only had 70
[11:27] Rufus Steampunk: I'm curious because in a recent structure I made for a sort of nightclub, I used a total of 4 hollow objects just to make the doorway, and the roof is also made out of hollow cylinders (megaprims actually).
[11:27] Andrew Linden: Arcane, you will have to test it emprically in order to answer that question.
[11:27] Helena Lycia: I have a more-or-less sim-sized maze made out of hollow cyls
[11:27] Andrew Linden: Ooof, Helena.
[11:28] Arawn Spitteler: Caves? Are Caves expensive in Copncavities?
[11:28] Helena Lycia: I'll show you around sometime Andrew :)
[11:28] Andrew Linden: The answer to your question is complicated Helena...
[11:28] Arcane Laval: Hmm I sort of did.. without knowing it causes lag, the sim runs but not always at top performance. It has hickups. Could those hickups be caused by the cubes?
[11:28] Lestat Demain: copncavities?
[11:29] Andrew Linden: the physics engine will "group" collections of objects to figure out which objects might be settling down (becoming inactive)
[11:29] Andrew Linden: when you have very large objects then you tend to get very large grouping... these are called "simulation islands" in Havok parlance
[11:29] Latif Khalifa: Arcae, "hickups" are mostly do to the sim freeze problem we talked about before, doubt it's physics related
[11:29] Arawn Spitteler: Concavities are part of the group?
[11:30] Arcane Laval: Alright :)
[11:30] Andrew Linden: The result is that large objects tend to collapse the simulation islands into one, and all objects are continually woken up (activated) if even one object is continually active in the group.
[11:30] Rufus Steampunk: He means groups of avatars or moving objects I think, Arawn
[11:30] Moon Metty: ahhh, the large objets glue the islands together
[11:30] Lestat Demain: yers but when the 'simulator islands' are around we have to break them up or sim cleaning is impossible
[11:31] Andrew Linden: The grouping is NOT used to cull collision checks (contrary to my original understanding that I propagated a couple years ago)
[11:31] Helena Lycia: Maybe my maze is a completely nightmare for physics then :(
[11:31] Andrew Linden: Helena, unless you're noticing problematic lag, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
[11:31] Helena Lycia: OK
[11:31] Simon Linden: Are you seeing performance problems with it? High physics time?
[11:31] Helena Lycia: I only really worry about lag spikes
[11:32] Arawn Spitteler: Arrivals of script heavy avatars?
[11:32] Helena Lycia: I'm just making mental notes for future builds
[11:32] Andrew Linden: Arawn, the collisions for concave shapes are handled by the physics engine... it just has to work harder to compute them.
[11:32] Vista Questi: that's my guess as well
[11:32] Helena Lycia: Yeah
[11:32] Lestat Demain: intersim comms more like it
[11:32] Arawn Spitteler: I'm wondering how much hollow non-collisions cost
[11:32] Latif Khalifa: yeah, physics is really no cause of lag anymore, now we have other problems, like script rez time :)
[11:32] Helena Lycia: People logging in and out as well as TPs and sim crossings all seem to cause lag spikes
[11:33] Andrew Linden: So, concave objects should just collide nearly correctly most of the time. The comparison between costs is hard to determine, and I forget any numbers from benchmarking that I might have done years ago.
[11:33] Arawn Spitteler: If a noncollisioni by reason of the prim not being there happens, how much does it cost?
[11:33] Latif Khalifa: Helena, that is the problem Babbage is looking into, related to scrip and prim rez times
[11:33] Andrew Linden: Simon, do you remember the relative cost between a "mesh shape" and a "box shape"?
[11:33] Simon Linden: Helena - that sounds like the classic AV rezzing delays
[11:33] Simon Linden: in the havok engine?
[11:33] Helena Lycia: YEah
[11:34] Helena Lycia: Trouble is the sims I live on are classic high prim AV hangouts
[11:34] Andrew Linden: Yeah. However, perhaps the relative cost isn't the really interesting bit...
[11:34] Simon Linden: Not really, but the mesh shapes end up with a lot more triangles, so I think they can generate many more collision points/pairs
[11:35] Andrew Linden: My advice is... don't worry about it unless you have bad lag. Then you might try to optimize, but first you want to troubleshoot to see if the problem is scripts or something else.
[11:35] Thend Destiny: Is the upcoming SL Viewer ready to accept an influx of Meshes in the next year? Or do you expect many issues of related rendering and lag?
[11:35] Andrew Linden: Disable scripts etc.
[11:35] Simon Linden: When I did the shape simplification tests on the kart, I found the physics load seemed directly related to the number of verticies or triangles
[11:35] Andrew Linden: The real worry when building with concave prims is this:
[11:35] Simon Linden: Drop the complexity of the kart to 25% of what it was, and the sim ran almost 4x faster
[11:36] Andrew Linden: Whent the physics engine starts to really suffer it will start temporarily replacing your concave shapes with convex approximations to help recover.
[11:36] LSL Scientist slams a rotten herring to the table: MISC-3088
[11:36]
[11:36] Andrew Linden: When that happens you'll suddenly have objects that are interpenetrating.
[11:36] Latif Khalifa: lsl, please no, not every meeting about that
[11:36] LSL Scientist: :P
[11:37] Simon Linden: It's noted for the Official Permanent Record
[11:37] Andrew Linden: The interpenetration resolution code will push them out... unless they are avatars. Avatars will cease to collide during penetration after about 1 sec.
[11:37] Arawn Spitteler: It's more traditional to mention SVC-22 and SVC-93, but I also like to mention SVC-2931
[11:37]
[11:37]
[11:37]
[11:37] Simon Linden: svc-22 is supposed to get thunder :(
[11:38] Moon Metty: i didn't hear it eaither o_O
[11:38] Arawn Spitteler: The Meeter thinks we're done, thirty eight minutes ago
[11:38] Rufus Steampunk: That's only if the interpenetrating prims are not physical, right?
[11:38] Rufus Steampunk: I mean ARE physical
[11:38] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: The meter seems to have broken with daylight savings time.
[11:38] Xugu Madison: I much prefer MISC-3077 myself
[11:38]
[11:38] Andrew Linden is listening to Pink Floyd on the other set of headphones.
[11:38] Latif Khalifa: another thing related to sim freezes, was the list of "low hanging fruit" lsl functions to implement... that will drastically reduce number of scripts needed to say implement a resizer... any word on status of implemetnation of those functions?
[11:38] Lestat Demain: u do realise eventually your gonna have to run 1 sim per server to get any decent performance
[11:39] Latif Khalifa: Xugu, we think alike :)
[11:39] Moon Metty: yes, Latif, but it will take time for new products to spread
[11:39] Andrew Linden: The word on MISC-3077 is that I hope to actually work on some of those in two or three weeks. I've got some new devs and was thinking it would be fun to a little group sprint project on some of those low hanging fruit.
[11:40] Latif Khalifa: Moon, the sooner we have the possiblilty, the sooner wil people start selling "low lag" versions
[11:40] Andrew Linden: That that is all ... tentative plans.
[11:40] Xugu Madison: LSL - 3088 will get itself fixed as a side-effect of C# scripting, as you'll be able to do client-side compilation and just upload the result I believe
[11:40] Moon Metty: i agree Latif
[11:40] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, excellent news!
[11:40] Andrew Linden: 3088... I wanted to bounce it off of Doug Linden to see what he thinks. He might have an idea on how to do it right.
[11:41] Xugu Madison nods "Fantastic! Sorry, was off in the scrollback a second"
[11:41] LSL Scientist: im getting bored, i want to create stuff, but not doing it untill i know some asshole cant copy paste my source code
[11:42] Arawn Spitteler: Is there still a security issue on Source Codes?
[11:42] Latif Khalifa: LSL, great. leaves more room to the less paranoid :D
[11:42] Xugu Madison: LSL, scripts are compiled server side for security issues. That'll change, but it's 6+months off and we've been hammering on Babbage about it for something like a year now
[11:42] Andrew Linden: The source code download exploit was fixed, as far as I know.
[11:42] Lestat Demain: script it in latin im sure everyone will understand it :)
[11:42] Latif Khalifa: hehehe
[11:42] Thend Destiny: Yes LSL, the whole security issue looms very big in most resident's minds, for sure
[11:43] Arawn Spitteler: Real Hackers decode the ByteCode
[11:43] Andrew Linden: However, I think some people worry about a new exploit showing up, so really want some way to help gaurantee that their code is safe.
[11:43] Thend Destiny: How about the basic copying of builds/products, etc?
[11:43] April Looming: The security issues around all our creations are a big concern for me
[11:43] Latif Khalifa: in this a complex system, there is never a 100% guarantee
[11:44] Vista Questi: asshats will be asshats..
[11:44] April Looming: Why can't we get a 100% guarantee?
[11:44] Vista Questi: ur best hope is in trusting actual users. not to buy from them
[11:44] Thend Destiny: It seems anyone can do it now, and SL is largely built on folks' businesses
[11:44] April Looming: I think 100% security on our creations should be a goal
[11:44] Andrew Linden: Because the system is complex. MISC- 3088 would help get much closer to 100%.
[11:44] Lestat Demain: never happen
[11:44] Latif Khalifa: April, you can have a 100% guarantee when you have a 100% bug free code. Come around such a thing lately?
[11:45] Xugu Madison: April, come back when you're running a 100% secure OS? :)
[11:45] Arawn Spitteler: 100% Security depends on waiting for someone else to reach market, first
[11:45] Vista Questi: April i don't think that's ever possible.
[11:45] April Looming: Hey, it's just a goal :P
[11:45] Arcane Laval: Setting it as a goal is different from actually gaining it
[11:45] Arcane Laval: The closer you get to it, the better
[11:45] Lestat Demain: why set impossible goals?
[11:45] Arcane Laval: To get closer
[11:45] Latif Khalifa: MISC- 3088 is a big waste of time, if you get byte code via some bug, you it's as good as source code
[11:45] April Looming: So you're always trying to improve
[11:45] Thend Destiny: It's not even close to 100% though lol
[11:46] Xugu Madison nods to Latif
[11:46] Thend Destiny: Maybe the opposite way
[11:46] Arawn Spitteler: We have IP Law, but no way to confine IP to places covered
[11:46] Latif Khalifa: its just proposed by people who have no idea what sim needs to run to execute scripts
[11:46] Latif Khalifa: which is the bytecode
[11:46] Xugu Madison: If you want to see what secure software looks like, BTW, try installing OpenBSD then getting any work done :)
[11:46] Latif Khalifa: and which is as good as source code
[11:46] Arcane Laval: It just takes one genius to prove everyone wrong. It happened before :P
[11:47] Vista Questi: if u are stolen from, at least u have some legal recourse, now .
[11:47] Arawn Spitteler: Is Prokofy a Genius, or does he just claim everybody's wrong?
[11:47] Latif Khalifa: lool
[11:47] Moon Metty: :)
[11:47] Kaluura Boa: She*
[11:47] Vista Questi: LL can'tbe expected to sanction everyone's behavior ,u know!
[11:47] Lestat Demain: who the hells prokofy?
[11:47] Melchizedek Blauvelt: *Hir
[11:47] Uni Ninetails: dont ask
[11:48] Arcane Laval: A blogger
[11:48] Kaluura Boa: =^_^=
[11:48] Vista Questi: omg he's a minion of doom! lol
[11:48] Xugu Madison: Careful, I think the third mention of his name summons him
[11:48] Kaluura Boa: A sea dragon
[11:48] Arawn Spitteler: Character, bright, but thinks herself smart
[11:48] Vista Questi: a HA! i KNEW it was a she, all along! lol
[11:48] Lestat Demain: oh dat all...well his genious and opinion just went south
[11:49] Techwolf Lupindo: Prok = http://xkcd.com/386/
[11:49] Latif Khalifa: hahaha, a good one!
[11:49] Arawn Spitteler: Just b thankful that SL has a potential to admit Autistics
[11:49] Moon Metty: lol Tech
[11:50] Arcane Laval: Anyways.....
[11:50] Uni Ninetails: i cant help hum the magic roundabout tune when Prok makes comments.
[11:50] Andrew Linden: Prokofy Neva is an SL resident with strong opinions and convictions, and who will engage in argument with gusto.
[11:51] Uni Ninetails: any argument.
[11:51] Arawn Spitteler: Has Prokofy ever met LuciferSatan?
[11:51] Lestat Demain: ugh was just a question bak to topic b4 lindens escape
[11:52] Arcane Laval presents topic :-D
[11:52] Simon Linden: questions are good :)
[11:52] Arawn Spitteler: So, PosJump, supported or not?
[11:52] Latif Khalifa: the biggest problem for my business is nt
[11:52] LSL Scientist: it is after 1-2 weeks
[11:52] Latif Khalifa: is not "theft"
[11:52] Latif Khalifa: it's bloody 30 seconds freezes
[11:52] Thend Destiny: Businesses cannot operate effectively in an environment where they have no way of securing their stock from rampant shoplifting, that's the basics.. If this is so, then LL shouldn't be courting rl businesses to move in, just advertise SL as one, big sandbox
[11:52] Latif Khalifa: that you get when a new customer teleports in
[11:52] Latif Khalifa: Thend, BS
[11:52] LSL Scientist: and later we get the PRIM_POS_FAR or what ever to replace it with
[11:52] Andrew Linden: posjump will eventually break outright. Don't rely on it.
[11:52] Lestat Demain: hey have u guys upgraded to fiber to connect between boxes or u still using copper?
[11:53] Vista Questi: hey andrew, i have a quick question. ... I've noticed I'm able to make prims bigger than 10m with the meerkat viewer.. are you aware of this?
[11:53] Andrew Linden: Lestat, some parts of the net are fiber and some are copper.
[11:53] Latif Khalifa: instead of chaising time wasting ideas liek MISC- 3088, I'd mudh rather see my customers move around freely and not "wonder off into the distance" whenever a new customer teleports in
[11:53] Latif Khalifa: and in a buys sim that happens all the time
[11:53] Latif Khalifa: busy
[11:53] Arcane Laval: How much bigger?
[11:53] Kaluura Boa: PosJump won't break until you provide a replacement... That's the kind of promise that is in the air
[11:53] Arawn Spitteler: I think they're using Dialup, between gerbils. Meerkat shouldn'tbe able to exceed 10 meters, serverside
[11:54] Andrew Linden: One swtich per rack, about 32 1U servers per rack.
[11:54] Vista Questi: i haven't tested but at least 256, i haven't really trid to stretch them that far
[11:54] Lestat Demain: lol labeled?
[11:54] Xugu Madison: Wait, SL isn't run by unicorns? I was lied to :(
[11:54] Uni Ninetails: labeled just labeled wrong XD
[11:54] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I bet those racks make a lot of noise.
[11:54] Vista Questi: well who SAYS unicorns can't do it? lol
[11:55] Andrew Linden: Latif, someone is working on the "wander off into the distance" problem.
[11:55] Imaze Rhiano: Vista - did you able to take that size of primitive to your inventory and rezz it back?
[11:55] Lestat Demain: would luv to see the microwave readings in that place
[11:55] LSL Scientist: i give 3000L$ for the person who give me one new megaprim (if someone think it is possible, IM me and ill tell the size i need)
[11:55] Vista Questi: no that fails
[11:55] Simon Linden: wow, I could start a side business...
[11:55] Xugu Madison: Andrew, does this involve holding down avatars so they can't escape?
[11:55] Vista Questi: it's a one shot. . if u try to adjust any attribute then it snaps back (but u can resize it, again)
[11:56] Kaluura Boa: btw... When will we be allowed to have prims bigger than 10m?
[11:56] LSL Scientist: Simon, indeed you could, you has the magic skill to do it?
[11:56] Vista Questi: when we learn to behave with them, I suppose. <G>
[11:56] Arcane Laval: lol @ Simon, I'd do it if I was you!
[11:56] Uni Ninetails: object encroachment solvd yet?
[11:56] Rufus Steampunk laughs at Simon.
[11:56] Xugu Madison: Kaluura, once they fix the UI issues surrounding megaprims, and that doesn't seem to be a priority
[11:56] Imaze Rhiano: um... so you can set primtiives size larger than 10m when editing - but when you close edit - primitive resets to 10m?
[11:56] Xugu Madison: Try Nyx's office hour for an update on megaprims
[11:56] Helena Lycia: I love megaprims
[11:57] Lestat Demain: oh the wandering off into the distance thing? check ya logs its a voice capabilities thing
[11:57] Uni Ninetails: and nyx will bounce back to Andrew :P~
[11:57] Simon Linden: I'm sure there's some clause in our employment agreements about abusing superpowers ... seriously, the prim sizes are capped on the sim when they are edited
[11:57] Vista Questi: megas as are seem to be fine, i love the challenge of building with them as they are presently limited.
[11:57] Imaze Rhiano: ya... Nyx will bounce it back to andrew - happened before
[11:57] Simon Linden: That's why they snap back to small if you edit them
[11:57] Uni Ninetails: or Qarl if hes feeling ebil XD
[11:58] Xugu Madison makes a note "Go to Nyx's office hour. Bring electromagnet@
[11:58] Helena Lycia: Whenever I go to Nyx's OH it's always postponed
[11:58] Moon Metty: Nyx is almost always present
[11:58] Vista Questi: I just so LOVE coming to these meetings. meeting all the smart people. <G>
[11:58] Moon Metty: also on Qarl's hour
[11:58] Uni Ninetails: yup and shows at Qarls on occasion
[11:59] Melchizedek Blauvelt: And Q's
[11:59] Vista Questi: Helena, Im REALLLY curious about your sim!
[11:59] Moon Metty: Nyx is more often on Qarl's hour than Qarl
[11:59] Simon Linden: Not to start a firestorm, but what's a sane limit on prim sizes? 20m? 50m? I realize anything bigger is good, but we'll have to pick some number
[11:59] Vista Questi: may i have an lm to it/
[11:59] Xugu Madison: Vista, sounds like Meerkat is showing changes without actually getting them through the server first, to me
[11:59] Vista Questi: well
[11:59] Uni Ninetails: 14-20
[11:59] Kaluura Boa: 64m
[11:59] Uni Ninetails: er 15
[11:59] Vista Questi: if u HAD to pick a number and i was me
[11:59] LSL Scientist: rather 50 than 20
[11:59] Arcane Laval: I don't go over 50 generally
[11:59] Vista Questi: 64km would be nice
[11:59] Xugu Madison: Simon, make it 32m and see how it goes from there?
[11:59] Arawn Spitteler: Ten meters of water might take a twenty meter bridge
[11:59] LSL Scientist: 64, nice round number
[11:59] Techwolf Lupindo: 256x256 so one can have a one prim floor on a sim.
[11:59] Andrew Linden: Seeing as how this hour is nearly over, I'm disinclined to get into megaprims today.
[11:59] Vista Questi: <G> so i could blot out the sun for thousands of sims! <giggle>
[12:00] Moon Metty: 64 sunds good to me
[12:00] XLR8RRICK Hudson: 64 or 128
[12:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: lol Tech.
[12:00] Simon Linden: I think the average here is 42...
[12:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: That's just asking for it. :p
[12:00] Xugu Madison: 42! I like it!
[12:00] Moon Metty: hahaha Simon
[12:00] Arcane Laval: Too small :P
[12:00] Andrew Linden: I've got an internal bug triage meeting that starts now, so I've got to go.
[12:00] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
[12:00] Moon Metty: ok Andrew
[12:00] Helena Lycia: I've used some nice 120m prims
[12:00] Xugu Madison: Good luck Andrew, and thanks for hosting!
[12:00] Uni Ninetails: ok thans Andrew
[12:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you Andrew.
[12:00] Vista Questi: probably clamping it at 256 xy and 4096 z would be reasonably sane
[12:00] Moon Metty: Thanks for the discussion :)
[12:00] Arcane Laval: Thanks for your time and good luck on that hehe
[12:00] Xugu Madison: Simon, can you check the asset DB to find out what range most are in, cap to cover 95%?
[12:00] Lestat Demain: oh your saving bugs and killing others?
[12:00] Vista Questi: thanks for... well being andrew, Andrew!
[12:01] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for a good discussion today ... I have to run too
[12:01] Arawn Spitteler: If the prims are clamped by the server of the sim, what are they using on Open Sim?
[12:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you too, Simon. :p
[12:01] Becky Pippen: Thanks, Andrew, Simon
[12:01] Xugu Madison: See you Simon!
[12:01] Moon Metty: thank you Simon, see you soon
[12:01] Vista Questi: usually 256, Arawn
[12:01] LSL Scientist: IM me simon, we talk about your new business ;)
[12:01] Arcane Laval: Bye bye!
[12:01] Simon Linden: The overhang is really the issue, whatever the size ... anyway, bye all!
[12:01] Lestat Demain: plz reset goguen :P
[12:01] Vista Questi: depends on the grid!
[12:01] Uni Ninetails: byyeeeeee Simon
[12:01] Uni Ninetails: oop

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User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 11 10

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