User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 12 10
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| [17:00] | Welcome to | Linden office hours |
| [17:01] | Charlette Proto: | mine are painted and flat, so i can sleep with my face down just like on a pillow |
| [17:01] | s greeter | says: Hello Hank, Morgaine, Charlette, Psi, Lestat, Twisted, Ardy, Simon, and JaneD. |
| [17:01] | Twisted Laws: | lol |
| [17:01] | Charlette Proto: | untill someone plays a loud gesture that is |
| [17:01] | Simon Linden: | Hello |
| [17:01] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hi Simon |
| [17:01] | Twisted Laws: | hello |
| [17:02] | Rex Cronon: | hiii... |
| [17:02] | Charlette Proto: | Rex the greeter spammer hehe |
| [17:02] | JaneD DeCuir: | Hi Simon |
| [17:02] | Hank Ramos: | heh |
| [17:02] | Charlette Proto: | try to take it into Ahern Rex |
| [17:02] | Twisted Laws: | needs to keep track and say hi to each new person that show |
| [17:02] | Lestat Demain: | lol purple bald linden |
| [17:02] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hi Andrew |
| [17:02] | Charlette Proto: | haha Andrew |
| [17:02] | Andrew Linden: | Hello |
| [17:02] | Hank Ramos: | Greetings everyone |
| [17:02] | Rex Cronon: | come on, i am being nice, saying hi to everybody and i am called a spammer. lol |
| [17:03] | Rex Cronon: | hi andrew |
| [17:03] | Twisted Laws: | hello |
| [17:03] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hi Spammer |
| [17:03] | Psi Merlin: | Hello andrew, Simon and everyone |
| [17:03] | Charlette Proto: | that was the first compliment for Andrew's av I've heard so far - except for the ARC of 1 |
| [17:03] | JaneD DeCuir: | hi Psi |
| [17:03] | Rex Cronon: | it can detect only the clossest 16 people, withing a 20m radius:) |
| [17:04] | Psi Merlin: | Hi Jane |
| [17:04] | JaneD DeCuir: | so lindens, what been going on for the grid? |
| [17:04] | Andrew Linden: | so server-1.34 is out to all regions now right? |
| [17:04] | Charlette Proto: | yeah Rex but to do that it uselessly scans anyway |
| [17:04] | Hank Ramos: | Seems to be |
| [17:04] | Simon Linden: | Yes, it should be on everything |
| [17:04] | Charlette Proto: | I've seen the 'orange dialogs' overnight |
| [17:05] | Charlette Proto: | ABC TV (aus) sandbox was on the old one |
| [17:05] | Rex Cronon: | charlette. your assumptions of how it works could be wrong:) |
| [17:06] | Hank Ramos: | What's on the agends? |
| [17:06] | Hank Ramos: | *agenda |
| [17:06] | Rex Cronon: | how about: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1253 |
| [17:06] | users sitting | on prims, which are set to phantom are not affected by damage. |
| [17:06] | Rex Cronon: | :) |
| [17:06] | Andrew Linden: | I didn't come with much on the agenda as per usual. |
| [17:06] | JaneD DeCuir: | ive been tp'ed massively across sl the last time and i rarely have seen the message that im on a different serverversion. everythings seems to be well |
| [17:07] | Rex Cronon: | a very interesting jira, if i may say:) |
| [17:07] | Simon Linden: | We did the usual half roll -out yesterday, 2nd half today |
| [17:07] | Andrew Linden: | there are a few more bugs fixed internally -- in fact I've got three bug fix branches in the air (waiting for QA attention) each with about 5 to 8 bug fixes |
| [17:07] | Simon Linden: | You must have been hitting different versions a lot then |
| [17:07] | JaneD DeCuir: | who? |
| [17:07] | Andrew Linden: | I think some of these I've mentioned (they've been in the air for a week or more) |
| [17:08] | Andrew Linden: | lessee... I just wrapped up a branch with SVC-1945 fixed |
| [17:09] | Andrew Linden: | that's the only public bug fix in that one |
| [17:09] | t change | position for small vectors when called in attachments on Havok4 unless interacted with |
| [17:10] | Simon Linden: | going to re-log, be right back... |
| [17:10] | Charlette Proto: | anyone seen Inventory items pop up without any dialogs etc, just pop up in objects folder one day |
| [17:11] | Rex Cronon: | it might be that that asset server finally found them:) |
| [17:11] | Charlette Proto: | maybe I should JIRA it, seems like it could cause a hell of a mess |
| [17:11] | Lestat Demain: | oooh missing items returned lucky u |
| [17:11] | BlackLotus Swansong: | Not personaly but I have seen the inverse. |
| [17:11] | Andrew Linden: | sorry... was interrupted in RL... .back |
| [17:11] | Charlette Proto: | no stuff a user forced on me one day without a chance to reject (no blue box) |
| [17:11] | Rex Cronon: | wb |
| [17:12] | Charlette Proto: | a dude with 20 hacking groups in the profile |
| [17:12] | Lestat Demain: | pn has an forcing inventory update but it hasnt worked on me yet |
| [17:12] | BlackLotus Swansong: | I have see that. |
| [17:12] | Andrew Linden: | alright, I've got one small item to raise... SVC-4415 |
| [17:12] | llRotBetween sometimes | gives erroneous results. |
| [17:13] | Andrew Linden: | I have a fix for that bug however... there is a worry about broken content |
| [17:13] | Twisted Laws: | might fix a bit more than it breaks, Andrew! |
| [17:13] | JaneD DeCuir: | once a crash eated up a new build i maded..... two days lost |
| [17:13] | Charlette Proto: | look up "ABBa Davi" or some of his alts to see how hacking obsessed koreans work |
| [17:14] | Charlette Proto: | no kidding, he puts 'Object' into your inventory without you even knowing it |
| [17:15] | Rex Cronon: | wb simon |
| [17:15] | Lestat Demain: | wow obsessed or wot |
| [17:15] | Charlette Proto: | just a playwood cube but one could think of worse cases than that |
| [17:15] | Morgaine Dinova: | Treat them as system testers ;-) |
| [17:15] | Charlette Proto: | ah kk Morg |
| [17:15] | Simon Linden: | That's an interesting trick |
| [17:15] | Andrew Linden: | Charlette, you received an inventory PUT from ABBa Devi? |
| [17:16] | Charlette Proto: | just deleted 8 of them, ABBa Davi seems mad at the fact that Korea1 isn't for Koreans or something like that |
| [17:16] | Charlette Proto: | yup 8 of them at once |
| [17:16] | Ardy Lay: | AR's for inappropriate content in profile. |
| [17:16] | Andrew Linden: | Hrm... interesting. What region was that done? And what approximate time? |
| [17:16] | Charlette Proto: | the profile says it all I agree Ardy |
| [17:17] | Charlette Proto: | I'm sure it happened at Korea1 |
| [17:17] | Andrew Linden: | ok |
| [17:17] | Andrew Linden: | time? |
| [17:17] | Ardy Lay: | That youtube username says a lot and violates SL TOS/CS |
| [17:17] | Rex Cronon: | charlette. how du u find them:) |
| [17:17] | Charlette Proto: | not absolute, but we get mad Koreans there all the time, also AR griefing korean kids |
| [17:17] | Rex Cronon: | how do u* |
| [17:18] | Charlette Proto: | I search for "Object" to clean up and came across too many to be of my own making and looked into creator name |
| [17:19] | Hank Ramos: | How hard is email on server lag compared to using HTTP, and any news un lessening up the restrictions of HTTP between objects in SL or will that be the same amount of load? |
| [17:19] | Andrew Linden: | I don't know the answer to that Hank. |
| [17:20] | Lestat Demain: | lol did i just hear an i dont know? |
| [17:20] | Simon Linden: | I haven't heard of any plans to lessen the http limits |
| [17:20] | Andrew Linden: | Let me post the question to a different LL dev and see what he says. |
| [17:20] | Hank Ramos: | Not sure if it's a server load issue with simulators or just an anti-RL spam/server attack prevention thing. |
| [17:21] | Andrew Linden: | hrm... the guy I was going to ask is already gone today. |
| [17:21] | Simon Linden: | Probably both |
| [17:21] | Morgaine Dinova: | Oh joy -- "FTC Says Virtual Worlds Bad For Minors" -- http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09 /12/10/1922250 |
| [17:22] | Charlette Proto: | there are lots of throttles applied to messaging Hank, so you could be right |
| [17:22] | Pixeleen Mistral: | that is a veryinteresting story |
| [17:22] | Andrew Linden: | I saw that headline go by but didn't have time to read it. |
| [17:22] | Rex Cronon: | can't these translators, translate using llownersay:( |
| [17:22] | Simon Linden: | The actual report is here : http://www.ftc.gov/os/2009/12/oecd-vwrpt.pdf |
| [17:22] | Hank Ramos: | Teenager sees mammary gland...news at 11. |
| [17:23] | Lestat Demain: | bah we already know theres plans to cut population of sl underway |
| [17:23] | Lestat Demain: | thru censorship |
| [17:24] | Andrew Linden: | who might be planning? |
| [17:24] | at the | thought of all those teens unable to watch Television, due to Virtual Worlds. |
| [17:24] | JaneD DeCuir: | that has already happened, lestat |
| [17:24] | JaneD DeCuir: | cutting |
| [17:25] | Lestat Demain: | look for yourself...telstra aka bigpond is going..sbs tv changed their minds about comming in |
| [17:25] | Lestat Demain: | thats at least 10 islands |
| [17:26] | Andrew Linden: | Ah, I look at that as "the platform failed to meet customer's needs" |
| [17:26] | Ardy Lay: | It's the taboo that attracts minors. Doesn't matter what the subject matter is. Just the fact that it's taboo. |
| [17:26] | JaneD DeCuir: | lol |
| [17:26] | Lestat Demain: | umm no its called a bailout due to new censorship rules comming in |
| [17:27] | Hank Ramos: | Teenagers have been seeking what their hormones tell them too for millenia, lol |
| [17:27] | Ardy Lay: | Actually, that probably works on many adults too. :-) |
| [17:27] | Ardy Lay: | Hank, their hormones don't tell them to go after drugs. |
| [17:27] | Lestat Demain: | no their parents do :P |
| [17:27] | Charlette Proto: | censorship? maybe I shold cry faul since my blog was butchered and frozen |
| [17:27] | Ardy Lay: | Some may. |
| [17:28] | Morgaine Dinova: | Kids don't have a problem with "adult" stuff, they think about little else. It's adults that have a problem with it. |
| [17:28] | Hank Ramos: | ++HahHahHahHah++ |
| [17:28] | Hank Ramos: | I think SL is a drug, |
| [17:28] | Charlette Proto: | mind you I published 1100 plus names of my mute list |
| [17:28] | Ardy Lay: | I agree Morgaine |
| [17:28] | Hank Ramos: | sometimes at least. |
| [17:28] | Pixeleen Mistral: | SL is a drug |
| [17:28] | You decline | Angels Beach, Cape Suzette (82, 27, 24) from A group member named Lsai Aeon. |
| [17:28] | Rex Cronon: | i have 2 agree. it is addictive:) |
| [17:28] | White Calamity: | Either a drug or a time sink, you don't know where the hours go |
| [17:28] | Lestat Demain: | my screen wont light... |
| [17:28] | Pixeleen Mistral: | and the FDA is going to regulate it |
| [17:29] | Andrew Linden: | Looking through my list of stuff... I don't have much news. |
| [17:29] | Charlette Proto: | next the GOV will issue Second Life™ stamps to good kids |
| [17:29] | Andrew Linden: | Bug fixes are actually getting done pretty fast, compared to rates of the last several months. |
| [17:29] | Lestat Demain: | is dat to replace stipend? |
| [17:29] | Hank Ramos: | Any news on region crossings? Not sure what the issue is technically |
| [17:29] | Charlette Proto: | NSA don't even know I exist hehe |
| [17:29] | Andrew Linden: | I've got about three devs fixing bugs with me. Server-1.36 should be better than most. |
| [17:30] | Hank Ramos: | What changes are in the pipe-line? |
| [17:30] | Andrew Linden: | No news on region crossings, but thanks for reminding me (SVC-22) |
| [17:30] | Vehicles crossing | region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full |
| [17:30] | office hours | is half over |
| [17:30] | Simon Linden: | Region crossing problems are a bunch of issues ... no short-term fixes but I'm pretty sure it will be getting more attention |
| [17:30] | Charlette Proto: | 1.36 bans anyone wanting to use vehicles |
| [17:30] | Andrew Linden: | region crossings are something we should start a project on -- I was trying to think of good chunks of code to gang up on with a team |
| [17:30] | Lestat Demain: | hey maybe 1 of u can answer this...when i cross sims i get to see 3 choices cuz the server displays them b4 choosing 1...WHY? |
| [17:31] | Morgaine Dinova: | I think it's fair to say, "No fix in this generation of SL" :-) |
| [17:31] | Andrew Linden: | region crossings should be high on that list |
| [17:31] | Ardy Lay: | Andrew, how much of the region crossing troubles would you say (if you would) are caused by the MONO performance issues Babbage is working on? |
| [17:32] | Hank Ramos: | This is more of a scripting question, but should we be using LSL scripts instead of MONO in certain circumstances to lessen the load on simulators? |
| [17:32] | Andrew Linden: | Ardy, there were region crossing pain before MONO. I think MONO contributes, but it not most of the problem... maybe 10% of the problem these days |
| [17:32] | Charlette Proto: | sure Hank, JIT causes substantial server load |
| [17:32] | Simon Linden: | Hank - if it's an object that rezzes a lot, or crosses sims (attachments) I'd go for LSL. |
| [17:33] | Pixeleen Mistral: | region crossing have been an issue since I have player SL |
| [17:33] | Ardy Lay: | Hank, stuff that moves from region to region is best left in LSL for not. Stationary tasks are great in MONO as long as they don't involve being rezzed and derezzed a lot. |
| [17:33] | Simon Linden: | If it sits on the same region, mono is probably better |
| [17:33] | Andrew Linden: | What Simon said. |
| [17:33] | Twisted Laws: | Andrew, reddot99 wants to know if a object with a mass of zero is possible in sl |
| [17:33] | Ardy Lay: | I am just echoing Babbage's answer to the same question. :-) |
| [17:34] | Andrew Linden: | A good question for Babbage. I need to send him email tonight, maybe I'll ask that too. |
| [17:34] | Andrew Linden: | er... regarding whether to use LSL vs MONO. |
| [17:34] | Andrew Linden: | Twisted, zero mass does not make sense. |
| [17:34] | Arawn Spitteler: | lslwiki, under Energy, says that negative mass is possible, but borks scripts |
| [17:34] | Twisted Laws: | thanks |
| [17:34] | Lestat Demain: | neither duz 0 friction but hey its here |
| [17:34] | Andrew Linden: | "static" objects don't have any mass properties -- they effectively have infinite mass |
| [17:35] | Ardy Lay: | I wonder what NaN mass does. |
| [17:35] | Andrew Linden: | zero friction makes more sense than zero mass, I think |
| [17:35] | Lestat Demain: | not when objects are falling |
| [17:35] | Charlette Proto: | NaN = Not a Number??? |
| [17:35] | Ardy Lay: | YEah |
| [17:35] | Lestat Demain: | theres no accelleration |
| [17:35] | Andrew Linden: | hrm... what happens when a zero mass object is pushed? infinite velocity |
| [17:35] | Twisted Laws: | :) |
| [17:35] | Charlette Proto: | infinite (non phys) I guess |
| [17:36] | Arawn Spitteler: | Which universe? |
| [17:36] | Andrew Linden: | the physics engine computes "impulse" when objects recieve forces |
| [17:36] | Andrew Linden: | impulse implies mass, so the dynamics just don't work for zero mass |
| [17:36] | Charlette Proto: | is this why people get so mad in a large crowd |
| [17:36] | Arawn Spitteler: | I realmention of a couple superfluids, with no viscosity |
| [17:37] | Andrew Linden: | thank you Arawn -- zero friction is a decent approximation for some configurations |
| [17:37] | Ardy Lay: | Who has that? |
| [17:37] | Andrew Linden: | but zero mass is not |
| [17:37] | Charlette Proto: | temperament impulse multiplied by 0 = infinite madness I bet |
| [17:37] | Andrew Linden: | anyway, reddot99 is probably thinking of some feature/behavior he'd like to see, ratehr than zero mass |
| [17:38] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: does your team write tests that get added to QA's pyogp test suites? We're often talking about testing at OHs lately, and I was wondering whether all teams contribute tests toward the future regression testing, or does only QA do the test writing? |
| [17:38] | Twisted Laws: | yeah |
| [17:38] | Andrew Linden: | I wonder what that feature might be. |
| [17:38] | Ardy Lay: | Full scale 747 in SL or some such. |
| [17:38] | Lestat Demain: | thought of including specularity into the edit functions? |
| [17:38] | Andrew Linden: | Morgaine, there is someone who's side project is to make some automated tests using pyogp and LSL |
| [17:38] | Andrew Linden: | I think he's working on the test-harness, and has a few simple tests already |
| [17:38] | Arawn Spitteler: | Am I the only one getting translations? |
| [17:39] | Morgaine Dinova: | In your team? I know that everyone in Enus's team is doing so. |
| [17:39] | Charlette Proto: | Boeing 777 carries 180.000 litres of jet fuel hehe |
| [17:39] | Andrew Linden: | but these tests need to be run automatically when we deploy a test update to a test grid |
| [17:39] | Rex Cronon: | i wonder what is the status of SVC-1253? |
| [17:39] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: Yeah |
| [17:39] | Andrew Linden: | No, not on my team. On Enus's team. |
| [17:39] | Morgaine Dinova: | Ah yeah, that's Fisher mostly I think |
| [17:39] | Rex Cronon: | SVC-1253 |
| [17:39] | Morgaine Dinova: | And Kotler |
| [17:40] | Andrew Linden: | oh SVC-1253... Ive been seeing a lot of comments traffic in my email box over that one. |
| [17:40] | Rex Cronon: | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1253 |
| [17:40] | users sitting | on prims, which are set to phantom are not affected by damage. |
| [17:40] | Arawn Spitteler | sees green translations into spanish, and his keyboard is laggy |
| [17:41] | Ardy Lay: | Arawn, I see no translations. |
| [17:41] | Andrew Linden: | I'm not working on SVC-1253. I'm kinda stuck on that one... |
| [17:41] | Lestat Demain: | blame google |
| [17:41] | Morgaine Dinova: | I really think regression testing is your saviour if you get sufficient coverage of test cases. There's no future in repeated manual testing. |
| [17:41] | Hank Ramos | turns off his translator |
| [17:41] | Andrew Linden: | if someone internally were to say "just fix it this way" then I could do it quickly. But I fear all the complaints I'll recieve... |
| [17:42] | Lestat Demain: | that depends on consistency of results |
| [17:42] | Andrew Linden: | and the justifications I'll have to give internally for even fixing it |
| [17:42] | Lestat Demain: | haha the sorrows of being paid |
| [17:42] | Rex Cronon: | so , SVC-1253 is in limbo indefinitively:( |
| [17:42] | Andrew Linden: | also, if it one of those fixes that requires a new LSL call to appease everyone, then it belongs in MISC-3077 |
| [17:42] | List of | Linden-Confirmed Easy Changes/Additions With Large Returns |
| [17:43] | Arawn Spitteler | wonders how to distinguish when an object is addressing him by IM |
| [17:43] | Rex Cronon: | What if the owner of a sim could have a have check box named "allow ghosting" that when checked would allow people to go in ghost mode, and when unchecked the ghost mode wouldn't work? This way nothing is broken. |
| [17:43] | Andrew Linden: | What's everyone's votes here on SVC-1253 ? |
| [17:43] | users sitting | on prims, which are set to phantom are not affected by damage. |
| [17:43] | Lestat Demain: | thats already in emerald under phantom |
| [17:43] | Andrew Linden: | Some problems with that Rex: |
| [17:44] | Ardy Lay: | Arawn, object IMs should include the object name as a clickable link to object location and ownership information floater. |
| [17:44] | Andrew Linden: | (1) Content behavs differently in different places --> needs some UI indicator for which way it is going to work |
| [17:44] | Hank Ramos: | Can I add a new LSL function to that MISC thing to reduce the number of scripts used in many products? :) |
| [17:44] | Rex Cronon: | i find it usefull at rausch, but the sim has become kind of a bore because of i:( |
| [17:44] | Andrew Linden: | like the "no scripts" icon |
| [17:44] | Andrew Linden: | changing UI is not allowed until viewer-2.0 ships |
| [17:45] | Ardy Lay: | Hmm.... No opinion from me I guess. I don't do combat stuff. |
| [17:45] | Andrew Linden: | it is the shoot-em-up gamer's delima (cheat or not?) |
| [17:45] | Arawn Spitteler: | Not ghosting means a physical vehicle couldn't push an avie through a wall, but Ghosting means a person can cheat at combat. I think it's mostly a matter of deciding what's wanted, and might be made an estate option. Sim Option, since one estate contains all mainland |
| [17:45] | Morgaine Dinova: | You can change UI in Snowglobe. |
| [17:46] | Simon Linden: | Hank - what's the new function idea? |
| [17:46] | Rex Cronon: | andrew u don't need to change UI, it can just give an error if ghosting is no enabled |
| [17:47] | Arawn Spitteler: | Hank's translator has only a colon I couldn't click on. |
| [17:47] | Hank Ramos: | Something along the same lines as llOwnerSay, but to an arbitrary avatar within the same simulator...to avoid the expensive llInstantMessage call (at least I understand it's expensive interms of calls to various servers) |
| [17:47] | Charlette Proto: | combat isn't really the thing in Second Life™ (SVC-1253) too laggy I think |
| [17:47] | Lestat Demain: | lol a colon? |
| [17:47] | Andrew Linden: | How might you grief with that call Hank? |
| [17:47] | Rex Cronon: | the object set its name to an empty string before sending the IM |
| [17:48] | Rex Cronon: | that is why u see only a colon |
| [17:48] | Simon Linden: | So it's llSay() but directed to 1 avatar? |
| [17:48] | Boroondas Gupte: | maybe more like llRegionSay() to a single avatar |
| [17:48] | Lestat Demain: | hmmm llsayto() |
| [17:48] | Hank Ramos | isn't a griefer, lol. But I guess it could be used for griefing. Yeah, a private message ala llOwnerSay or llSay but to only one person. llOwnerSay does that, and I think it's lighter on server load than llInstantMessage(llGetOwner(), "Hello"); |
| [17:49] | Arawn Spitteler: | I think llInstantMessage only bothers the local server, if the target's in sim, or that might be llEmail |
| [17:49] | Andrew Linden: | It wouldn't work over region boundaries, even if the recipient is standing 2 meters away? |
| [17:49] | Hank Ramos: | well, not sure...whatever llOwnerSay does. |
| [17:49] | Rex Cronon: | hank, something similar was already used for grefieng:) |
| [17:49] | Ardy Lay | requests llRegionWhisper(integer channel, string message, vector color, float alpha); just to cause confusion. |
| [17:50] | Arawn Spitteler: | Respiration has been used for Griefing, in some universes. I don't think we can really get away with it |
| [17:50] | Hank Ramos: | Just not sure if that would lessen load on the servers, if llInstantMessage is more expensive in terms of calls outside of the simulator the object and avatar are in. |
| [17:50] | Morgaine Dinova: | Everything can be used for griefing, even plain chat. If you remove everything that griefers can use for griefing, you have no SL. |
| [17:50] | Rex Cronon: | i have 2 say that i agree with u morgaine:) |
| [17:50] | Simon Linden: | So basically like llInstantMessage( who, msg ) but just doing in-world chat. Is that right? |
| [17:51] | Hank Ramos: | Well without the 2 second delay, and without any overhead that llInstantMessage has. My understanding is that llInstantMessage has some overhead because it has to send calls outside of the local simulator to other servers. |
| [17:52] | Ardy Lay | looks around for the person that sent the friend request. |
| [17:52] | Simon Linden: | Right, I think that's the fundamental difference between in-world chat and IMs. For in-world chat, it just reaches a limited local audiance, while IMs can get re-routed to email |
| [17:52] | Arawn Spitteler: | Pixeleen? |
| [17:52] | Ardy Lay: | Yes |
| [17:53] | White Calamity: | Looks like she left Arawn |
| [17:53] | Andrew Linden: | so this new call would never get routed to email |
| [17:53] | Fury Rosewood: | Secondlife Herald |
| [17:53] | Fury Rosewood: | i dont trust them |
| [17:53] | Fury Rosewood: | their like a tabloid |
| [17:53] | Psi Merlin: | Friendship spam |
| [17:53] | Hank Ramos: | Right but a private llSay, which llOwnerSay does, but to any arbitrary avatar within the same simulator. basically copy the code for llOwnerSay, rename it to llLocalSay, and accept an arbitrary key. |
| [17:54] | Ardy Lay: | "All the fairly unbalanced news we see fit to print" |
| [17:54] | Ardy Lay: | Great |
| [17:54] | Rex Cronon: | i also like that hank:) |
| [17:54] | Andrew Linden: | Secondlife Herald is intentionally a tabloid -- the creators have very carefuly explained that they mix real news with "fake" |
| [17:54] | Rex Cronon: | it would be even better if it couldbe used for object to object communication:) |
| [17:54] | Ardy Lay: | This was from Pixeleen Mistral Managing Editor of the Alphaville Herald |
| [17:55] | Andrew Linden: | SLH is a little meta game that some psyc prof plays as a hobby. |
| [17:55] | Hank Ramos: | Yeah, I guess it could be used for that. The reason I bring it up, mainly, is that you have to use a lot of scripts to "Get around" the 2 second delay, and that just adds to the number of scripts running on the simulator. |
| [17:55] | office hours | is almost over |
| [17:55] | Simon Linden: | I can see where that might be useful |
| [17:55] | Hank Ramos: | And llInstantMessage call might be pretty expensive, but I don't know the underlying code behind the scenes for that call in SL servers |
| [17:56] | Fury Rosewood: | im just glad that Luskwood made prof mad :P |
| [17:56] | Fury Rosewood: | took the wind out of his sails :3 |
| [17:56] | Morgaine Dinova: | Although spam of various kinds is minimal now, in future it's going to need more automated controls. AR doesn't scale to large populations. |
| [17:56] | Arawn Spitteler | wonders if svc-93 has had mention: Something angered Prokofy? |
| [17:56] | ROTATION and | llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims |
| [17:56] | Rex Cronon: | i don't thik that prof is part of the SLH anymore |
| [17:56] | Andrew Linden: | Hank, what if this new call only had the same distance limit as llSay(), but would work across region boundaries the same, would that be ok? |
| [17:56] | Simon Linden: | I'm not sure exactly why the delay is there in llSay(). Griefing and performance are obvious issues, so there'd have to be some throttling or limits to prevent it from being totally crazy |
| [17:57] | Fury Rosewood: | no patch will solve griefing |
| [17:57] | Hank Ramos: | yeah, that would. But wondering if it would make more sense to work just like llOwnerSay does ((an existing function)) |
| [17:57] | Fury Rosewood: | im sorry but thats not the way to go about things here |
| [17:57] | Fury Rosewood: | we need to hold account holders accountable again |
| [17:57] | JaneD DeCuir: | no patch will stop idiots like griefers |
| [17:57] | Twisted Laws: | llSay may have a 0.2 sec delay but not 2 seconds |
| [17:58] | Fury Rosewood: | no verification has brought a bad element to sl, even tho it was tried to be made justifiable 3 years ago |
| [17:58] | Rex Cronon: | llsay has a delay? |
| [17:58] | Fury Rosewood: | it is not worth the frustration i have seen |
| [17:58] | Andrew Linden: | I'd rather modify the llSay() pipeline to allow per-avatar targetting, rather than write a new chat pipeline. |
| [17:58] | Fury Rosewood: | luskwood have been without script more times in the past month than i have seen in 2 goddamn years |
| [17:58] | Hank Ramos: | would work for me, but would think people would understand it better since it replicates with llOwnerSay does, but just adds the ability to specify a key. Maybe it's closer to llRegionSay() (I guess llOwnerSay is like that), but to only a particular key. |
| [17:58] | Simon Linden: | I totally agree, and we can't stop folks from doing bad things. We just don't want to let any function run away with all the resources, so pretty much everything gets some sort of throttle or cap |
| [17:59] | Andrew Linden: | hrm... what if it could target a group too, if the object were properly group-owned |
| [17:59] | Morgaine Dinova: | There's no going back, Fury. LL isn't going to cut off the feed that adds a percentage of people to its revenue stream. |
| [17:59] | Fury Rosewood: | yes there is |
| [17:59] | Simon Linden: | Do you mean if the id was a group? |
| [17:59] | Hank Ramos: | Was just thinking the best analogous function is llOwnerSay, so however that works it would work the same...and no cross-simulator needs and comms |
| [17:59] | Rex Cronon: | a lsl function that can send a message to all the group members? |
| [17:59] | Fury Rosewood: | we can undo this |
| [17:59] | Fury Rosewood: | just would take effort |
| [17:59] | Morgaine Dinova: | Fury: are you the CEO? |
| [17:59] | Andrew Linden: | yeah simon -- it could set an internal bit if the id matched the object's current group |
| [18:00] | Fury Rosewood: | and you dont want to look at the effort that it would take because you dont see it viable |
| [18:00] | Arawn Spitteler: | I'd like llOwnerSay, for Group owned objects. |
| [18:00] | Fury Rosewood: | Are you Morgaine? |
| [18:00] | Simon Linden: | No, that's a possible behavior of the proposed llSaySomethingTo( who_to_say_to, 'message") |
| [18:00] | Hank Ramos: | llOwnerSay appears as an object instant message (looks like local chat) but only works if the owner is in the simulator, doesn't go to IM, and works region wide. |
| [18:00] | Thank you | for coming to Linden office hours |
| [18:00] | Morgaine Dinova: | Fury: nope, which is why I'm not telling M to cut off his revenue stream. Whereas you are. |
| [18:00] | Simon Linden: | It's easy to get feature creep ... maybe the target is a list of ids? :) |
| [18:01] | Andrew Linden: | yeah, a list... with wildcards! |
| [18:01] | Simon Linden: | full regex |
| [18:01] | Fury Rosewood: | how is letting accounts come onto the grid without setting up a way to pay for stuff cutting off revenue? |
| [18:01] | Simon Linden: | Names or ids! |
| [18:01] | Andrew Linden | jumps on this feature creep design game. |
| [18:01] | Arawn Spitteler: | I can't click on the meeter name |
| [18:01] | Hank Ramos: | I was just thinking simply llOwnerSay funciton, exactly as it is coded in the server, but with an arbitrary key. SHould be easier to implement since it takes an existing function and just expands it a little. |
| [18:01] | Fury Rosewood: | honestly i only see it as well dumb |
| [18:01] | Simon Linden: | Don't mean to make fun of your idea Hank, it's a good one and a nice well contained improvement |
| [18:01] | Morgaine Dinova: | Fury: free accounts attract people, a proportion of whom convert to Premium. Simple. |
| [18:02] | Lestat Demain: | feature creep game lol |
| [18:02] | Fury Rosewood: | setting up paymment info from the get go makes it easier for a resident to get started getting involved |
| [18:02] | Hank Ramos: | ala something simple to do, with a large benefit to reduce the multiple scripts people use with llInstantMessage. |
| [18:02] | Simon Linden: | Have you written up a jira for it? |
| [18:02] | Fury Rosewood: | and those people that expect to get things for free here |
| [18:02] | Fury Rosewood: | wont buy things |
| [18:02] | Andrew Linden: | Hank, go ahead and link it to MISC-3077 so we dont' forget it. |
| [18:02] | Hank Ramos: | and couldn't be used for grid-wide spamning since it only works in the local sim |
| [18:02] | Fury Rosewood: | they start begging, and just expecting handouts |
| [18:02] | Hank Ramos: | yeah; I'll have to find it |
| [18:02] | Arawn Spitteler: | Anything that slows people, from wandering into this pernicious waste of time is going to reduce traffic |
| [18:03] | Charlette Proto: | like I said Hank - do a JIRA and see what response and votes you get |
| [18:03] | Fury Rosewood: | SL isnt a free lunch |
| [18:03] | Simon Linden: | I have to run ... thanks everyone for coming today |
| [18:03] | Rex Cronon: | tc simon |
| [18:03] | Simon Linden: | Bye all ... see you next time |
| [18:03] | Morgaine Dinova: | See you Simon |
| [18:03] | Charlette Proto: | there are too many overlapping functions in LSL as it is |
| [18:03] | Fury Rosewood: | and honestly im tired of content creator thieves |
| [18:03] | Fury Rosewood: | seeya |
| [18:03] | Hank Ramos: | VWR-11544 |
| [18:03] | ||
| [18:03] | Charlette Proto: | good |
| [18:04] | Andrew Linden: | ok thanks for the jira # |
| [18:04] | Andrew Linden: | oh hey... its 18:00, and I've got three or four things I need to get done before I go home |
| [18:04] | Arawn Spitteler: | Shouldn't I be able to ckick on the Meeter's Name, in chat? |
| [18:04] | Rex Cronon: | tc simon |
| [18:05] | Hank Ramos: | laterz |
| [18:05] | Morgaine Dinova: | Thanks Andrew, tc :-) |
| [18:05] | Charlette Proto: | byee Andrew |
| [18:05] | Rex Cronon: | tc andrew |
| [18:05] | Hank Ramos: | Thanks for the hour, was my first Linden office hour :) |
| [18:05] | Twisted Laws: | thanks, bye |
| [18:05] | Hank Ramos: | ++HahHahHahHah++ |
| [18:05] | Andrew Linden: | Arawn, that is a viewer feature that could be done. |
| [18:05] | wanli Despres: | thanks |
| [18:05] | Charlette Proto: | welcome to the mob Hank |
| [18:05] | Andrew Linden: | Really Hank? I thought I've seen you around before. |
| [18:05] | Arawn Spitteler | wonders if he should jira for longer hours |
| [18:05] | Andrew Linden: | Maybe it was only in jira comments? |
| [18:06] | Hank Ramos: | hehe, well not Linden office hours...I've been away for the past couple of years mostly. |
| [18:06] | Rex Cronon: | hank seems to have been around since 2003:) |
| [18:06] | Hank Ramos: | I think that's a recent development |
| [18:06] | Andrew Linden: | Ah, perhaps that is where I remember you from. |
| [18:06] | Hank Ramos: | ++HahHahHahHah++ |
| [18:06] | Hank Ramos: | Hard to remember everything over the past 6 years, |
| [18:06] | Andrew Linden: | Yup. |
| [18:07] | Andrew Linden: | I had my 10 year anniversary here at LL last week. |
| [18:07] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hehe, Happy 10th Andrew! |
| [18:07] | Twisted Laws: | yeah! |
| [18:07] | Charlette Proto: | must have strted in the garage Andrew |
| [18:07] | Rex Cronon: | congratz:) |
| [18:07] | Arawn Spitteler: | Since 1999? |
| [18:07] | Hank Ramos: | congrats Andrew :) |
| [18:07] | Charlette Proto: | so you got to throw a few granades I guess |
| [18:07] | Morgaine Dinova: | Wow, Hank is the only non-Linden I know that's older than me --- gratz Hank! :-) |
| [18:07] | Andrew Linden: | Yeah, Dec 10th 1999, and that was about a year before we incorporated LL. |
| [18:08] | Andrew Linden: | er... Dec 1st |
| [18:08] | Arawn Spitteler: | You were still the Haptic Engineer? |
| [18:08] | Charlette Proto: | OMG making the rocket code must have been a freak thing Andrew |
| [18:08] | Andrew Linden: | yeah, here's a funny story... |
| [18:09] | Andrew Linden: | When I came to work for Philip we were working on some haptics hardware (like force feedback) |
| [18:09] | Morgaine Dinova | grabs a glass of wine and a cushion |
| [18:09] | Andrew Linden: | and he didn't even tell me about his idea for a distributed virtual world until sometime after the first week. |
| [18:09] | Morgaine Dinova: | Josh says that rig is still in the cupboard. |
| [18:10] | Arawn Spitteler: | Sounds good for conventions |
| [18:10] | Andrew Linden: | Parts of the rig are scattered all over. It is very disassembled now. |
| [18:10] | Charlette Proto: | tell us Andrew; why didn't you guys follow the Active Worlds - High Level user interactivity model??? |
| [18:10] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hehe |
| [18:10] | Andrew Linden: | Charlette, we hadn't heard of Active Worlds until very early 2001 |
| [18:11] | Morgaine Dinova: | (That's the official line :P) |
| [18:11] | Hank Ramos: | hehe Morgaine :) |
| [18:11] | Charlette Proto: | ah OK, it had nice UI authoring model unlike LSL |
| [18:11] | Andrew Linden: | I remember the day well, another kinda funny story, but I have trouble expressing the oddness of it... |
| [18:11] | Morgaine Dinova: | I played on AW (called something slightly different then) back in 1996. |
| [18:11] | Andrew Linden: | When we saw AW we hadn't written hardly any code... very early prototype |
| [18:11] | Hank Ramos: | The ability to script inworld is what brought me here and kept me here. |
| [18:12] | BlackLotus Swansong | same as Hank |
| [18:12] | Charlette Proto: | I did university lectures at Sydney Uni all based in Active Worlds |
| [18:12] | Hank Ramos: | It was interesting to see some videos of the pre-beta SL world |
| [18:12] | Andrew Linden: | however we all looked at it and said to ourselves "This is not what we're building. We're going to blow by these guys with our feature set." |
| [18:12] | Andrew Linden: | However, the plan for the virtual world at the time was different from what actually came to pass. |
| [18:12] | Morgaine Dinova: | Ditto re scripting, that's what made this place different. However, I stopped scripting after a year, when I hit the stoppers and just got annoyed. |
| [18:13] | Andrew Linden: | The plan at that time was for an "organic" world with plants and animals, and objects that could break. |
| [18:13] | Hank Ramos: | The fun in SL, at least for me, is you can do a lot of "distributed" stuff across servers and prims. |
| [18:13] | Charlette Proto: | AW plus would have blown Second Life™ to bits - the architecture seems like designed in AW and SL is like cobbled together stuff |
| [18:13] | Hank Ramos: | ala the grenades Andrew? :) |
| [18:13] | Andrew Linden: | It wasn't until... late 2001, or early 2002 that we shifted focus to be about user created content. |
| [18:14] | You decline | Angels Beach, Cape Suzette (82, 27, 24) from A group member named Nydia Tungsten. |
| [18:14] | Hank Ramos: | I thought that was funny when I saw those. Kinda cool. |
| [18:14] | Charlette Proto: | AW was all user created content way before Second Life™ |
| [18:14] | Morgaine Dinova: | Andrew: one of you needs to write the LL equivalent of "The Soul of a New Machine" (Tracy Kidder), with all those early day stories. :-) |
| [18:14] | Hank Ramos: | I'm waiting for the time I can put on 3d goggles, and use my hands to do stuff in SL |
| [18:14] | Charlette Proto: | indeed I think Second Life™ is a game without a scenario to play in comparison to AW design |
| [18:14] | Andrew Linden: | Yes, I recall we tried to build stuff in AW, and all five of us failed, except for one guy who found some model to upload. |
| [18:15] | Rex Cronon: | too bad that the combat system is borke:( |
| [18:15] | Rex Cronon: | borked* |
| [18:15] | Andrew Linden: | alright, gotta go do stuff |
| [18:15] | Charlette Proto: | I built interactive stuff in AW and didn't have to touch a line of code - all event handlers and object attributes |
| [18:15] | Andrew Linden: | thanks for coming everyone |
| [18:15] | Charlette Proto: | thanks for insights Andrew |
| [18:15] | Rex Cronon: | bye andrew |
| [18:16] | Morgaine Dinova: | Well all this nice for reminiscing, but you have to looks ahead or you regress. Hierarchical objects :-) |
| [18:16] | Charlette Proto: | have a good weekend if you still get them in LL |
| [18:16] | Morgaine Dinova: | See you Andrew :-) |
| [18:16] | Charlette Proto: | haha Morgaine |
| [18:16] | Charlette Proto: | the use of "object" in Second Life™ is really a joke |
| [18:16] | Arawn Spitteler: | Are we still trying to regress to heierarchical objects? |
| [18:16] | Ardy Lay: | Thanks Andrew. |
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