User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 12 29

Transcript

[10:57]	Thriller Dancer:	Say 'on' or 'off'to turn me on or off, or 'help' for more commands
[10:57]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Hey Simon.
[10:57]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Simon. Been dancing again?
[10:57]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[10:58]	Erinyse Planer	squirms nevrously. "um hi Simon. I figure by now you probably don't even remember me"
[10:58]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, that dance attachment has been passed around the project group I'm in ... it's funny to end a meeting with it :)
[10:58]	Ardy Lay:	DOes it make you all dance at the same time?
[10:59]	Simon Linden:	No ... that's actually an interesting side effect of the system design I learned about
[10:59]	Simon Linden:	Here's what happens ... you get a bunch of AVs that say "play this animation" on your viewer
[10:59]	Simon Linden:	The viewer requests that animation when it sees the first AV trying to play it
[10:59]	Erinyse Planer:	hey arawn. yay probably the only person that will show up who remembers me!
[10:59]	Simon Linden:	... when it gets downloaded, it starts
[11:00]	Welcome to	Linden office hours
[11:00]	Simon Linden:	So if you have a bunch of people trying to play the same dance, they end up starting at the same time and are in sync
[11:00]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe. Accidental synchronisation?
[11:00]	Simon Linden:	Totally an accident of loading order
[11:00]	Ardy Lay:	Fun
[11:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	svc-22 svc-93 svc-2931 just to maintain tradition
[11:00]	Erinyse Planer:	sounds useful
[11:00]	llSetLinkPrimitiveParams content	breakage, only moves agents 54 meters now
[11:00]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[11:00]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[11:00]	Arawn Spitteler	yells: SHEEP
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	Right ... if you're someplace and people start at different times, you'll see them out-of-sync, but someone that TPs into the area will see them syncronized because they get all the play messages at once
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	We haven't had Sindy and Sheep in a while :)
[11:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Still, tradition
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	Anyway, annoucements : Andrew is on vacation this week
[11:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	We have to keep our Hands in
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	There won't be office hours on Thursday this week due to the holiday
[11:02]	Erinyse Planer:	lol figures I come back and andrews gone *facedesks*
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	Not much going on with the grid ... no new versions or changes this week
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Next Week, Andrew should be back, at his regular time
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	We pretty much lock it down and keep it running for the holidays
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	Right, one week from now things will be back to normal
[11:03]	xstorm Radek	shouts: DUCKS AWAY
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's hard enough, for a Linden to stay married, without things happening on Family Time
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	be right back ... coffee machine just beeped to me...
[11:04]	Ardy Lay:	xstorm has gone quackers again.
[11:04]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Mmm, coffee.
[11:04]	xstorm Radek:	hi Simon :-)
[11:05]	Erinyse Planer:	i'm not gonna complain that stuffs not changing too much this week. its taken some time to get used to all the changes that occurred over the last few months. logging in last week and trying to find my way around again was.... intresting
[11:05]	xstorm Radek:	hi Robin
[11:05]	Robin Cornelius:	Hey there
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	I do know Andrew has been organizing some bug fixes and minor changes that should be in the 1.36 server. I think the code lock-down for that is early Jan. and it will be on Aditi (the beta grid) soon
[11:06]	Tillie Ariantho:	Hello!
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	We had a couple of server developers start in this fall and they've come up to speed pretty fast and are fixing things
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	Hi Tillie ... welcome to office hours
[11:07]	xstorm Radek:	eeeeppp why am i now sitting next to Simon ?
[11:07]	Shawn Kaufmat:	heh
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	So ... that's all from me ... any questions or issues we should go over?
[11:07]	Erinyse Planer:	simon.... dumb question but ive been gone awhile. was any improvement made on the whole avatar movement on multiple avi's slows sim to crawl situation?
[11:07]	Tillie Ariantho	hums... "It's a kind of magic"
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	We've learned a bit ... are you specifically talking about region crossings?
[11:08]	LSL Scientist:	Simon, you happen to know how much money LL is making? when i take out calculator im starting to wonder why LL has only ~400 employess and not 4000
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	Babbage has looked into the big lag delays there and narrowed it down to mono scripts and adding them to the system
[11:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's the avatar that says to see a particular animation? It must be, so the anim still works on TP. I know dancers ahve a problem getting their animations loaded quickly
[11:08]	Erinyse Planer:	no... I dont remember the jira off the top of my head, but the one that was affectionately known as the cola nightmare
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	LSL - I don't know the details be we sure couldn't support 4000
[11:09]	xstorm Radek:	crossings lol i have no problems with that now its the servers that have problems
[11:09]	Arawn Spitteler	recalls 16 servers to the linden
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	I don't remember any significant work on performance just within a region. Crossings and TP arrivals have been more painful for a while
[11:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	On web-1406, I think it is, I'm trying to help a lady deal with issues of Billing. Has Morgaine been about?
[11:11]	Panic Check	- Tier Drops need warnings, and invitations to clarify.
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	Not today, I haven't seen her
[11:12]	xstorm Radek:	i think what i will do is a artical about corsica continent that has been forgoten by many of linden labs people but if it was not for some hard working moles corsica will never get done at all
[11:12]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	o_o
[11:12]	Melchizedek Blauvelt:	Morgaine is about to log I think, might still catch her in IM
[11:12]	Shawn Kaufmat:	Simon, SVC-5197 is reproducable.
[11:12]	Sim server	should not return non-deeded items if someone rezzes something too big for sim
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	Arawn - was that someone who had a premium account and didn't downgrade?
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Didn't downgrade before removing her credit card, and couldn't downgrade without it
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Something screwy
[11:13]	xstorm Radek:	yes i have seen that happen
[11:13]	xstorm Radek:	the accounting system is crap when it comes to that
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Mostly her nervousness, but she seems to think, just not having the payment info on file is blocking her status change
[11:14]	Erinyse Planer:	when i had to go away 5 months ago, the new site and system woudlnt let me downgrade. i finally just gave up
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	ok - I'll pass that to the business guy who's dealing with premium accounts. I mentioned the 'death penalty' they have already to him, and he agreed we should fix it. Don't know when that might happen, but at least it should raise awareness
[11:14]	Erinyse Planer:	and whats this death penalty thing?
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	As the angels would say, "Take an interest, in those who are down, that they might be more easily exploited when fortune returns to them."
[11:15]	xstorm Radek:	thats why i have to use a dumb payment system do to the mess that the account system LL has can mess up it it seems its never any of LL problem
[11:15]	LSL Scientist:	death penalty: if you fail to pay your tier, you get removed, and your inventory get wiped.... you can get your account back if you pay, but inventory ius lost forever
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Morgaine seems to think, that simply downgrading to basic will destroy all your assets
[11:16]	Erinyse Planer:	o.O
[11:16]	xstorm Radek:	it has happen in the past yes]
[11:16]	Erinyse Planer:	um i sencirley hope that any acocunt that happened to got a BIG credit from LL.
[11:16]	Erinyse Planer:	*account
[11:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'd like to get some documentation in public jira, that Lindens can wipe each other's noses in it
[11:17]	Simon Linden:	The 'death penalty' is where you have a premium account, and stop paying. You get some notice, then eventually the account gets cancelled, not downgraded to Basic
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:17]	Melchizedek Blauvelt:	Heya Rex
[11:17]	xstorm Radek:	it seems more like LL likes to have people buy a island so they will not need to worry about a user account
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:18]	Ardy Lay:	What happens to inactive Basic Accounts?
[11:18]	Erinyse Planer:	Well why doesnt it just get downgraded? mine got incorrcetly locked up once when my credit card failed... and that was after a single day... depsite the socalled 10 day grace period
[11:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	Island
[11:18]	LSL Scientist:	especially for creators the inventory wipe is terrible, i would prolly open my wrists in RL
[11:18]	Simon Linden:	Well, yeah, we'd be really happy if more people bought islands :)
[11:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	Rentals create another problem, for the premium account
[11:18]	Simon Linden:	It's not that practical, however :)
[11:18]	Erinyse Planer:	make islands reasonable and more people might buy them. 1600 is rediculous anymore...
[11:18]	Rex Cronon:	simon. what is the max nr of sims that the grid can support?
[11:18]	Tillie Ariantho:	Simon: islands are just too expensive... $299, and then another 20% VAT on top is MUCH.
[11:19]	Simon Linden:	Yep, it's pretty steep
[11:19]	xstorm Radek:	a prem account was to be a good thing if it was not for us prem account holders there be no more damn mainland the way things are going
[11:19]	Erinyse Planer:	should be either pay the 1600 OR pay the monthly tier... not both.
[11:19]	Tillie Ariantho:	I have a root server for €69 that has 12GB of ram and an intel core i7 ... that could run many islands ...
[11:19]	Simon Linden:	Rex - I don't know a real number on that. We tend to get more problems with adding avatars than land
[11:19]	xstorm Radek:	unless LL is trying to kill off all the mainland ???
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	Empty regions aren't much of a load on the system
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	No, we're not trying to kill off the mainland
[11:20]	Techwolf Lupindo:	LL need to fix preminioum problems and start marketing it.
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	Yep, that's exactly what the Linden Homes feature is about
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	lets say u have 1 million sims. what good is that if only max 80k users can be on the grid at the sam time:(
[11:20]	Erinyse Planer	wouldnt be sad to see mainland go. Ll would be forced to kill account verification if they didn't have mainland
[11:20]	xstorm Radek:	then come up with a safe guard for the prem account owners
[11:21]	Erinyse Planer:	homes feature?
[11:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	What would Harry do, for a job?
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	Linden Homes : https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/land/blog/2009/12/16/linden-home-beta-is-now-open
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	It's basically a 512 plot with a house for premium accounts
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	... on a pre-built region
[11:22]	Techwolf Lupindo:	hmm..me camera controls don't work when sitting in this chair
[11:22]	Erinyse Planer:	okay ive been gone wayyy to long. not only have all the lindens forgotten me but all these new programs i never heard about
[11:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	You've been gone way too long
[11:22]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	So basically, LL are giving away that free 512 to premium accounts?
[11:23]	xstorm Radek:	yes i seen the candy for new prem account owners but thats no good when some one owns a mainland sim and is trying to help others learn
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Reapply for BSI, 'cause the Lindens might have al forgotten you
[11:23]	Erinyse Planer:	we've always had a 512 ability but it was never free to us i guess
[11:23]	xstorm Radek:	a prem account is more then just owning a little 512 sqm
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	It counts as tier ... you get 512 tier credit with a premium account, so it's really now giving the free land to use it
[11:24]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi	is tempted to get a premium for that.
[11:24]	Erinyse Planer:	do we still have to pay an initial purchase cost on it like we used to?
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	There's a bunch of people who get premium accounts but don't get into land owning ... it's not really worth that much then
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	No, there's no initial purchase cost
[11:24]	xstorm Radek:	lol tier lol when you own a full sim on mainland whats 300 going to do ?
[11:24]	victoriaa Gloom:	hey all
[11:25]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:25]	Melchizedek Blauvelt:	Hi Victoria
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	The program is designed to be a easy first step to owning land ... don't have to deal with the auctions, etc that are pretty confusing
[11:25]	victoriaa Gloom:	:)
[11:25]	xstorm Radek:	your thinking very small
[11:25]	Techwolf Lupindo:	prioum neeeds something other then land as benies
[11:25]	Erinyse Planer:	hmm can i request a refund of the initial 1100 lindens i had to pay for my first 512 plot???
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	It's a start
[11:25]	xstorm Radek:	we at trendone is trying to teach people how to group own sims
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	You're suppoised to sell at profit
[11:26]	Tillie Ariantho:	I'd really love to have like 4 or 5 islands to drop all my stuff and landscape a lot, only its not affordable. ^^
[11:26]	Erinyse Planer:	will you be able to select a store isntead of a home?
[11:26]	xstorm Radek:	to group own a sim and do it right is a bigger stem in mix theme based sim building
[11:26]	xstorm Radek:	step
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, I personally would really like to see the cost of land drop down. I think it would make things a lot bigger and better in the long run
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	Erinyse - no, it's just homes for now. We figure if you get to the point where you want a store, you'll want to shop around and find the right place for it
[11:27]	Techwolf Lupindo:	they need to break down sims to avatar limits and script time limites. that what loads a sim down, not prim count.
[11:27]	Erinyse Planer:	making islands affordable to the average joe would attract in allot of people that avoid sl cuase of the costs.
[11:27]	Tillie Ariantho:	Simon: do you mention that at the LL meetings too or is it a secret wish of yours? ^^
[11:27]	xstorm Radek:	land cost drop ??? how can it drop below 0.1 L sqm ?
[11:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ever hear what happened to
[11:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	to London Bridge, after Joh Lackland financed it?
[11:28]	LSL Scientist:	i think(hope) Simon meant the tier
[11:28]	Tillie Ariantho:	xstorm: where are YOU buying your land? Landstore still sells for $299+VAT or something per month
[11:28]	Erinyse Planer:	xstorm we're talking about islands
[11:28]	xstorm Radek:	we buy mainland
[11:29]	Tillie Ariantho:	The buying part is not the costly thingy, the tier is.
[11:29]	xstorm Radek:	with out mainland you islands will fall apart
[11:29]	Simon Linden:	Sure, I've discussed that with Jack (Land Business Guru) and others. It's tough though ... there are a lot of existing owners who don't want it to be cheaper because they've invested already
[11:29]	Erinyse Planer:	they drop the island price then? was 1600 last i saw for initial purchase
[11:29]	LSL Scientist:	buying expensive land hurts only once, but the monthly tier is what prevents us buying more land cause we dont want to spend too much money every month
[11:29]	Techwolf Lupindo:	mainland is going for 1.5 now, down from 1.8 a few months ago
[11:30]	office hours	is half over
[11:30]	xstorm Radek:	we got our mainland cheeper then 1.0
[11:30]	Erinyse Planer:	I cant afford $300 a month. thats more then my car payments
[11:30]	Kitto Flora:	Simon, what is the scedule for introducing Script limits for Avatars, and by parcel etc?
[11:30]	Tillie Ariantho:	Oh poor Anshe, when her land imperium falls apart. What about the other 80,000 people that log in, though? They might cheaper land.
[11:30]	Tillie Ariantho:	They might like...
[11:30]	xstorm Radek:	Erinyse then learn how to build group land systems
[11:31]	Simon Linden:	Kitto - I'm not sure. The last 1.34 release had a bunch of new code to monitor the usage, but not impose any limits. I think they're looking at the usage first before figuring out how to divide it up
[11:31]	Erinyse Planer:	xstorm I do. but they arent practical for everything
[11:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hey, Erinyse, do you know any club type bands?
[11:31]	Erinyse Planer:	RL or sL arawn?
[11:32]	Techwolf Lupindo:	they need to split script time to per avatar, not per sim as it is set up now.
[11:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	We'll selll'em on SL
[11:32]	Tillie Ariantho:	Dont tell me you keep the land prives high to keep land barons in business.
[11:32]	Tillie Ariantho:	prices
[11:32]	Simon Linden:	For more wild ideas, I'd like to see more access to homestead/open space type regions, or even part-time regions ... ones that might only be online 12 hours a day, for example
[11:32]	Erinyse Planer:	thats part of it tillie
[11:32]	Erinyse Planer:	heres an idea... something like the homesteads that dont require you to own a full island first
[11:32]	Simon Linden:	Yep
[11:33]	Techwolf Lupindo:	limit script time to per avatar, not per sim. Right now, one avatar can chew up all free scritp time insead of just allowing that avatar part of the free script time.
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't know if I've Jiraed the idea, but blocks of four null_sims might be good for racing
[11:33]	xstorm Radek:	we have found by investing our time and what we know to help others learn how to use a group to build up there land and help people learn whats importent about using a group in the best ways it will build a better working sim.
[11:33]	LSL Scientist:	3min job: SVC-5161
[11:33]	Remove the	avatar flying height limit to reduce lag and script memory usage
[11:33]	Erinyse Planer:	if they didnt ake me buy an island to own a homestead i would have bought one back when i and my best friend had at least decent income between us
[11:33]	Melchizedek Blauvelt:	Yeah a friend of mine who had her homestead attached to someone else's sim...etc.
[11:34]	Simon Linden:	Techwolf - that's what the script limit code in 1.34 is laying the foundation for. Also on a parcel basis, so someone doesn't burn up far more than their share from a small plot
[11:34]	Rex Cronon:	let people flyfree up to 64km:)
[11:35]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Proper threading and schduler can allowcate time slices to sim/avatar/etc.
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	Some of these possible changes are frustrating because they are really simple in just code, but would disrupt everything else ... if we made the flight simple (without height dampening) we'd suddenly have people shooting to the moon when their existing flight assist kicked in :)
[11:36]	LSL Scientist:	if they dont disable the flight assist after first time hitting the moon, they totally deserve hitting couple more times
[11:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	It sounds like something for an estate owner option, like Scanner Limits
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	Maybe they want to orbit themselves
[11:37]	LSL Scientist:	intresting: SVC-4998
[11:37]	Tillie Ariantho:	LSL: hahaha
[11:37]	Permission system	- the ultimate fix
[11:37]	Ardy Lay:	I'd love to be able to drop my flight assist.
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	save on script time?
[11:37]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, it would be great to clean things up to get rid of flight assists, most animation over-rides, and such
[11:38]	Erinyse Planer:	allot of people i know would kill to be able to get rid of flight assists
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	If you could fly naturally to any height, then you dont need the flying assist script - saves on that script
[11:38]	Ardy Lay:	One less script to carry and they are subject to execution delays the make me fly like a noob.
[11:39]	Rex Cronon:	u know what will save on script time? being able to replace the default animations, instead of having to use an AO:)
[11:39]	Erinyse Planer:	even if you raised the limit to say 1000 meters you'd cut the need by over 75%
[11:39]	Simon Linden:	It would be good to brainstorm with Andrew to see how we might figure out a transition for that ... it's really a problem of not confusing and upsetting the majority of users who may not even remember what they have attached
[11:39]	xstorm Radek:	Ardy are you worry about looking like a new pwerson or splatting on the side of a tree ?
[11:40]	Shawn Kaufmat:	Simon, you can't hand hold users forever, they have to have a brain too =)
[11:40]	Kitto Flora:	not many trees 4kM up
[11:40]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	curious here - is there an acutal heright with a flight assist?
[11:40]	Shawn Kaufmat:	there are lots of sandboxes high up though at 4000m even
[11:40]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	actual height**
[11:40]	Erinyse Planer:	yeah id love to see a built in interface for using animations without aos. less objects and scripts. the idea was tossed around snowglobe... wonder if theres plans there for it
[11:40]	xstorm Radek:	hold on hold on its not a train but a brain ? damn
[11:41]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, I'm just saying it's a tough balance to try and be friendly to beginners and the average person when it would be much easier to just slam in a new change to the system
[11:41]	Rex Cronon:	u can have flating gardens, kitto:)
[11:41]	Techwolf Lupindo:	emerald has a working client side ao system
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler	wants one of those famous flating mountains
[11:42]	Shawn Kaufmat:	yeah but Zhao II code isn't exactly pretty to look at
[11:42]	xstorm Radek:	no the best part is having it built in there will be no script lag crossing sims like there is from a AO
[11:42]	Erinyse Planer:	Ive heard that. but i dont use emerald.... yet... if they get a little more secure i may though.
[11:42]	Erinyse Planer:	and you could have theoretically a limitless set of animations to choose from
[11:43]	xstorm Radek:	scripts loading when crossing sims is one of the big problems of SL
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	Simon, do you get problem of prim litterning with the Emerald LSL-bridge objects?
[11:43]	Simon Linden:	I haven't heard of that
[11:43]	Simon Linden:	I did hear that we get a lot of support calls with reported inventory problems that are Emerald issues
[11:43]	Techwolf Lupindo:	the script will self-delete if detached.
[11:44]	Shawn Kaufmat:	xstorm, I dont know how well mono performance is with JIT when switching simulators
[11:44]	xstorm Radek:	just like when some one teleports in and lags the hell out of a sim when all there scripts that are program wrong trys to load all at one time in that sim
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	I haven't been doing much on the viewer lately
[11:44]	LSL Scientist:	SVC-2049 reminded me about a flag im been wanting to have since day 1.. "dont force my cam out from prims, let my camera go where ever i put it" i really dont see why cam get forced out from prims, i want to be able to disable it
[11:44]	Camera zooms	rapidly in and out (yo-yo, pogos) with objects behind you
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	Yeah xstorm, that's probably our biggest performance problem now
[11:45]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Does support foward tickets to emerald or they still tell the users to ____ off? (yes, a friend of mine got that from support)
[11:45]	Kitto Flora:	When a emerald user TPS and has that LSL-bridge enabled the av drops a weird prim which it uses for some functions. The prim is almost totally invisible. But its in the region database - likley SL has millions of them now.
[11:45]	Shawn Kaufmat	never was a mono fan, its still 'not there' yet for me and development
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	There are some developers now meeting regularly with the Emerald people to try and have some better communcation between us
[11:45]	Erinyse Planer:	wow they actually said F*** off to a customer? please tell me they don't still have a job
[11:46]	xstorm Radek:	and like i did say in the past stop scripts from running when a person teleports and let them restart whats needed when they get in to the sim less lag
[11:46]	Rex Cronon:	that one is bad LSL, especially whenu havea follwer onu:(
[11:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	They should hire Erinyse, she says it real good
[11:46]	Simon Linden:	They've added some features, for example, that really killed our performance. I forget the details, but there was one that started sending some message 5x per second, and that hurt
[11:46]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Probably the radar.
[11:46]	Erinyse Planer:	......
[11:46]	Simon Linden:	yeah, radar sounds familiar
[11:47]	Erinyse Planer:	Ll will never hire me or my friends. We're too blunt, and too critical of the company
[11:47]	LSL Scientist:	llGetSimAgentList();
[11:47]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	personally, I'd NEVER use a 3rd party viewer - far bfar better to stick with offical one imho
[11:47]	Shawn Kaufmat:	heh
[11:47]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	It does updates very quickly from what I've seen - even scans neighbouring sims.
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	Emerald 'radar' just taps the info coming in about Avs you can 'see'. Its all client side
[11:47]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I don't think so. With my help, we got the inventory issue strighten out. My experece with support help with facking out LL support to actually do something that was clearly on there end.
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	Just remember to criticise the company with Flair
[11:47]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Kitto - payment info scans and such aren't client side though.
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	OK. So?
[11:48]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	I remember Soft mentioning once that he saw a lot of profile requests on a sim I was in.
[11:48]	xstorm Radek:	i have found people running omne tools mystey tool multi tools AO's and spy tools all at one time and they just about crash our sim with them all running when they teleport
[11:48]	Shawn Kaufmat:	I would have loved LL to have just fixed the C++ LSL parser, switch to python or such but i can dream ;0
[11:48]	Shawn Kaufmat:	or lua
[11:48]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The avatar list is not a radar, no request are sent out. The info is allready in the client, it just display it.
[11:48]	Erinyse Planer:	Lol i still think im one of the only residents LL has had employess that flat out told"we want to ban you for good, but we just haven't found an excuse that will hold up yet"
[11:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	Motto for Linden Development: We keep you dreaming
[11:49]	Erinyse Planer:	anyways... if emerald is giving LL so much trouble, why not jsut kill acess to it?
[11:49]	Shawn Kaufmat:	im told Mono won't have a good garbage collector until Mono 2.8 or so
[11:49]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	personally, i find ll support extremely helpful, apart from 2 employees who shall remain nameless
[11:49]	Simon Linden:	I looked into our LSL parser code, and it's scary. It would really be best if we can get mono to work as it promisies, but it's still ugly when you have lots of little scripts
[11:49]	Erinyse Planer:	and adam i have to agree with you on that. msot of ll support at least makes an effort
[11:49]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	exactly
[11:50]	LSL Scientist:	if we would get llGetSimAgentList(); we could stop rezzing flying prims that sense the sim, this would be very performance effective
[11:50]	Shawn Kaufmat:	Simon, well, who said any parser code is pretty to look at? :-)
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	Well - you rewrite MONO :)
[11:50]	Erinyse Planer:	and four have saved my butt regularly
[11:50]	xstorm Radek:	any way you look at it Mono will stop many of the problems we have now
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	simon.it woud be btter i u gotc# here:)
[11:50]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Thats what threme ane my friend off. Support telling it your problem and closed the ticket.
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	if u*
[11:50]	Techwolf Lupindo:	threw that is
[11:50]	Simon Linden:	The real scripting issue in SL is that we have tons of little scripts running, and there aren't a lot of systems that do that well
[11:50]	Shawn Kaufmat:	Mono == C#
[11:50]	Shawn Kaufmat:	er C$
[11:50]	Shawn Kaufmat:	C#
[11:51]	Techwolf Lupindo:	5 dollar keyboard is not friendly to paws....
[11:51]	Simon Linden:	C# may come along someday ... I think someone had an experimental system going at one point
[11:51]	xstorm Radek:	i have converted close to 279 scripts to mono and found many of them to work better with less lag
[11:51]	Rex Cronon:	nope. mono suport many oter lanuages esidesc#:)
[11:51]	Simon Linden:	There's a lot of work to wire it up to the internal SL functions, however
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	C# for scripts?
[11:51]	xstorm Radek:	all but 3 scripts did not convert right do to there age
[11:51]	Simon Linden:	Right
[11:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	How do we measure th lag potential of scripts?
[11:52]	LSL Scientist:	empty sim
[11:52]	Shawn Kaufmat:	well, there's JIT overhead, VM overhead a little
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	C# should be banned. Along with Microsoft :)
[11:52]	Shawn Kaufmat:	Kitto, I wish :)
[11:52]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi	raises a paw for the ban on MS.
[11:52]	xstorm Radek:	first off you need a lag meter program in mono or you will not get a true reading
[11:52]	Erinyse Planer:	take an empty sim, put a single avatar in it with an object runnign the script. add mroe basic avatars with that script or combo of scripts as needed
[11:52]	Simon Linden:	I'm personally more a fan of Javascript flavors myself
[11:53]	Shawn Kaufmat:	YES
[11:53]	Techwolf Lupindo:	mono has some patent issues. MS said they not sue, but it is not a binding contract. :(
[11:53]	Shawn Kaufmat:	Simon, javascript would be a great switch to
[11:53]	Erinyse Planer:	ugg java script? are you kidding?
[11:53]	Shawn Kaufmat:	emcascript is quite powerful
[11:53]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Heh.
[11:53]	xstorm Radek:	why not mix the 3 base scripts of java / C and Mono ?
[11:53]	Erinyse Planer:	anything with java is a security risk
[11:53]	Shawn Kaufmat:	C?!
[11:54]	Shawn Kaufmat:	yo're kidding me...
[11:54]	Techwolf Lupindo	lol "Whos better for slow and bloated? JAVA was first, but has mono taken the lead?"
[11:54]	Rex Cronon:	hey. why not JAVA:)
[11:54]	Shawn Kaufmat:	you want scripters to kill a sim with memory leaks in their scripts? :-D
[11:54]	Shawn Kaufmat:	let alone any security exploits awiting
[11:54]	Shawn Kaufmat:	awaiting
[11:54]	Rex Cronon:	erinyse, u mean javascrit?
[11:54]	Tillie Ariantho:	uhm, java is not that slow anymore.
[11:54]	xstorm Radek:	programing a system to use all 3 is not hard for your inside a program to start with
[11:54]	Simon Linden:	The hard part is really wiring in the bytecode interpreter on the simulator ... mono actually is pretty good, except for that @#$@ performance issue when adding new scripts. It just doesn't handle lots of small scripts at once very well
[11:55]	office hours	is almost over
[11:55]	LSL Scientist:	one of my favorites: SVC-422
[11:55]	A solution	to scams, money theft - etc. New parcels Flag "Block Transactions
[11:55]	Shawn Kaufmat:	Simon, well mono is still quite new
[11:55]	xstorm Radek:	just add java and C# to the library data base
[11:55]	Erinyse Planer:	not java
[11:55]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, that's an interesting one, LSL
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	I Was just checking, on the side, Meta7 has no flight height limit.. I'm up at 1700 with no problem, and we have had no complaints about avs getting lost in the sky.
[11:56]	xstorm Radek:	java runs fast and is no longer the buggy monser it was
[11:56]	Shawn Kaufmat:	xstorm, there still is an initial load hit with java
[11:56]	Erinyse Planer:	java is too easy to crack, and too hard to keep secure.
[11:57]	Simon Linden:	Unfortunately discussing all these language options is probably a moot point ... I think we're stuck with Mono unless something really radical happens
[11:57]	Rex Cronon:	erinyse, that is trueof anylanguae:)
[11:57]	Shawn Kaufmat:	Erinyse, they run all the scripts in VMs anyway
[11:57]	Erinyse Planer:	java is one of the worst though
[11:57]	Shawn Kaufmat:	like a chroot environment
[11:57]	Rex Cronon:	language*
[11:57]	xstorm Radek:	but there is a big problem if your using windows 7 with the SL user software it has a leak thats nasty at time the software will use up to 1.3 gigs at times
[11:57]	Rex Cronon:	lol. java isnot the wrost
[11:58]	Simon Linden:	In the Glorious Future we can use different languages that compile down to the same mono-based bytecode -- not sure how much of that promise is smoke and mirrors, however
[11:58]	Tillie Ariantho:	yah, to 1.3gig and then it crashes. :-(
[11:58]	Erinyse Planer:	problems cuased by using java coding make up more of the cybercrimes seen where i work then about anything else other then child issues
[11:58]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[11:58]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	onigokko
[11:58]	Shawn Kaufmat:	Simon, that's asking for pain...
[11:58]	Rex Cronon:	i would say tha c++ is ta prim contender to that title:)
[11:58]	Shawn Kaufmat:	just dump mono :)
[11:58]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, how about FORTH? :)
[11:58]	xstorm Radek:	eeeekkkk
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	How about FROTH?
[11:59]	Shawn Kaufmat:	Erinyse, don't blame java, blame the people who setup stuff
[11:59]	Shawn Kaufmat:	Forth?!
[11:59]	Shawn Kaufmat	coughs up a hairball
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler	wonders if an Assembly Language exists for Virtual achines
[11:59]	Gregory Maurer:	INTERCAL
[11:59]	xstorm Radek:	Java is fine if you know how to use it
[11:59]	Tillie Ariantho:	Scala. :P
[12:00]	Gregory Maurer:	Whitespace- solve adding another language and script theft at once
[12:00]	Thank you	for coming to Linden office hours
[12:00]	Shawn Kaufmat	is a C++/linux developer, dont blame the language, blame the coder ;)
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Sure ASM does
[12:00]	Erinyse Planer:	xstorm... go ahead use java all you want. but if your system gets comromised, pray it doesnt come across where i work for now. cuase basically we'll tell you you did nothing to secure yourself and move it to the bottom of the list
[12:00]	Shawn Kaufmat:	I'd like to see the permission system respect script licenses
[12:00]	xstorm Radek:	Simon i know a person you need to pull in to this meeting and thats kelly linden
[12:00]	Shawn Kaufmat:	it doesn't now, there are countless objects that are violating the GPL and people dont even know it
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Blame the coder for selecting the language to use? Sadly its ofthen a political decision.
[12:01]	Tillie Ariantho:	We use java in the bank for out application servers on linux. windows stuff got banned and is being removed everywhere.
[12:01]	Tillie Ariantho:	out -> our
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	Anyone who understands how simulators work would write it in C.
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	I have to run ... actually grabbing lunch with Kelly. :) We discuss the languages a lot
[12:01]	Shawn Kaufmat:	:)
[12:01]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	See you next year, Simon. :)
[12:01]	Erinyse Planer:	have a good lunch simon. good to see you again
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	Thanks to everyone for coming ... see you all next week Tuesday (or whenever you can make it)
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon ad a hapy new year:)
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler	imagines a language discussion in four letter words
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	and*
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	You too Erinyse, glad to see you're back
[12:02]	Melchizedek Blauvelt:	Happy new year :)
[12:02]	Gregory Maurer:	take care, happy holidays
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Tuesday is another year.
[12:02]	xstorm Radek:	kelly linden is one of the best people to talk with about programing but do not tell him i told you so
[12:02]	Shawn Kaufmat:	heh
[12:02]	Kitto Flora	watches messages as inter-sim comms fail again

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