User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 01 15

Transcript

[16:01]	Ardy Lay:	What do we have to do to get these GG OH HUDs updated?
[16:01]	Kaluura Boa:	Hi Andrew
[16:01]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Andrew
[16:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hair, Collar, some sort of cuffs, and a belt, flaoting in air
[16:01]	Psi Merlin:	Rebaked
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	instructions are in a notecard ardy, IM the creator or some lame thing like that
[16:02]	Ardy Lay:	I did IM the creator on Tuesday.
[16:02]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[16:02]	Psi Merlin:	Hi Andrew
[16:02]	Andrew Linden:	Did anyone update the public office hours wiki info?
[16:02]	Hope McAlpine:	(rezzing )
[16:02]	Andrew Linden:	I forgot...
[16:02]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, I did.
[16:02]	Ardy Lay:	I hope I got it right.
[16:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Anyone know if Morgaine is coming? It said Friday, for me
[16:02]	Andrew Linden:	Ah thank you Ardy.
[16:02]	Charlette Proto:	maybe we need to distribute the new version by hand, didn't see updates on the HUD dialogs
[16:03]	Ardy Lay	pokes the HUD again.
[16:03]	Hope McAlpine	looking around and see if I am seeing clearly.. squinting my eyes
[16:03]	Thriller Dancer:	Say 'on' or 'off'to turn me on or off, or 'help' for more commands
[16:03]	GG Office	Hours HUD v1.5: No more Office Hours today
[16:03]	GG Office	Hours HUD v1.5: No Office Hours tomorrow
[16:03]	Hope McAlpine	is delighted to see Arwan
[16:03]	Thriller Dancer:	Ooops!
[16:03]	Arawn Spitteler	just keeps the page open, and lagging firefox thereby: This area takes as much time to rez for me, as most areas do
[16:03]	LSL Scientist:	i think the meeting hud made by Twisted Laws is full perms, so anyone can update it, i dont have it, but hes often here
[16:04]	Hope McAlpine	is leaning over to Arawn and smiles. " Thank you for inviting ".
[16:04]	Andrew Linden:	there is a meeting HUD?
[16:04]	LSL Scientist:	many
[16:04]	Hope McAlpine:	oh well.. too far to lean over :-)
[16:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Glad to have Hope. Hi Simon, Andrew
[16:04]	Hope McAlpine:	Hello everyone :-)
[16:04]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[16:04]	Charlette Proto:	LSL keen name considering LSL is so crappy as far as scripting platforms go
[16:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	She's an LSL Scientist, and likes to viisect he protocol
[16:05]	Hope McAlpine:	I will need to .. ahh.. run in little while ( dropping off Red Cross for Haiti posters)
[16:05]	LSL Scientist:	LSL is the only language that works in intresting enviroment, making it the best language aout there <3
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	ah good attitude - nice to see
[16:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	I wonder if a scripted viewer could use LSL, to be based in world
[16:06]	Simon Linden:	It's probably one of the last languages you'd want to use on the viewer ... some other scripting engine would be much easier to wire together
[16:06]	Simon Linden:	... especially since it's source isn't available
[16:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	I was thinking, it might be fun to run an abvatar from its own attachment
[16:07]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, some people argue that LSL has some nice features, but it is true that it has lots of flaws too.
[16:07]	Charlette Proto:	a viewer would be better off using JavaScript (ECMA) for sure
[16:07]	LSL Scientist:	and soon SL get C... i guess i need to make new fancy-name-ALT ^^
[16:07]	Simon Linden:	Right, or python or some other mature script engine
[16:07]	Hope McAlpine:	Hope<-------------- non-scripter but will pretend to be a scripter for now
[16:07]	Kaluura Boa:	Python, says the Boa...
[16:08]	Andrew Linden:	CG Linden sometimes will argue LSL's virtues if you get him in the right mood.
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	so you not all that sure about the virtues of LSL
[16:08]	Simon Linden:	How attached are you scripters to states? Do you use them often?
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	mood must be the key aspect of LSL coding
[16:08]	Kaluura Boa:	It's not that bad once you know it... It serves its purpose
[16:08]	Kaluura Boa:	Often... I love states
[16:08]	Ardy Lay:	I do use states but I suppose I can learn to live without them.
[16:09]	Andrew Linden:	Much like SL in general... I sometimes have trouble seeing the good aspects of LSL... I tend to focus on its flaws.
[16:09]	Charlette Proto:	nobody would care about states if an OO platform was to replace it (in my humble opinion)
[16:09]	Kaluura Boa:	The list of flaws is huge but... we don't have anything else
[16:09]	Simon Linden:	It's not that hard to program state behavior yourself, but if we enabled C# for example, it would be a bit of work to patch state syntax onto it
[16:10]	Andrew Linden:	ok announcements...
[16:10]	LSL Scientist:	i rarely use states, i make similar behavior to one state
[16:10]	Ardy Lay:	Oh no, don't do that to C#.
[16:10]	Charlette Proto:	more to the point of likely developments; ARE WE BEING KEPT IN THE DARK ON THE VIEWER2 JUST TO FOSTER RESENTMENT OF LL IN THE USER COMMUNITY???
[16:10]	Andrew Linden:	I think the US Linden Lab offices have Monday Jan 18th off.
[16:10]	Hope McAlpine:	everyone ?
[16:10]	Hope McAlpine:	Can I kindly ask a very tiny favor ?
[16:10]	You decline	Club Cutlass, Sunweaver Air (45, 112, 133) from A group member named Rita Mariner.
[16:11]	Andrew Linden:	So this means that I'll probably have very little news on Tuesday.
[16:11]	Simon Linden:	yeah, that's my view too. I wouldn't want to see a state mechanism patched onto it
[16:11]	Kaluura Boa:	My feeling about Viewer 2.0 is that the more we're are kept in the dark, the more disppointed we will be
[16:11]	Andrew Linden:	But I'll be here nonetheless.
[16:11]	Simon Linden:	Andrew and myself are well out of the viewer 2 loop, fwiw
[16:11]	Psi Merlin:	I use states, since thaey are part of LSL but if the C# idiom is different I don't see that as a problem.
[16:11]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[16:11]	Ovaltine Constantine:	Ok what happened in the last 10 minutes
[16:11]	Andrew Linden:	Viewer2.0 is open for playing with inside LL. I haven't tried it yet.
[16:12]	Ardy Lay:	Ovaltine, read the transcript after the meeting?
[16:12]	Rex Cronon:	i am glad i came:) for some reason i was sure the meeting was at 5
[16:12]	Kaluura Boa:	Ooops, Andrew, you forgot your NDA in the locker...
[16:12]	Charlette Proto:	fine it may be inside LL, but Second Life™ is the user base not just a Linden service to noobs
[16:12]	Andrew Linden:	Not much Ovaltine. We were discussing about whether LSL is bad or kinda good.
[16:13]	Hope McAlpine:	OK... I have Red Cross poster for Haiti's disaster and we are havving a concert. Would anyone like to have Red Cross poster ? Feel free to pass it along
[16:13]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah Kaluura. Which is why it is probably better for me not to try it until later.
[16:13]	Andrew Linden:	Sure Hope, gimme one.
[16:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	NDA like, "I don't see no transparency."
[16:14]	Simon Linden:	Sure Hope, I'll post it here
[16:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Do yu know Kate Miranda, Hope?
[16:14]	Hope McAlpine:	no ... I do not
[16:14]	Charlette Proto:	aLSL isn't drawing enough on the general programming expertise through analogies, State Machine isn't really enough of a general expertise, so it is bad since people need to learn Second Life™ only hacks to use LSL, hence it is bad
[16:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	I suppose I can think of a few, who might like
[16:15]	LSL Scientist:	lil something for the meeter to process :) VWR-6964 SVC-422 meeters have feelings too
[16:15]	Muting object	(or object owner) does not mute dialogs
[16:15]	A solution	to scams, money theft - etc. New parcels Flag "Block Transactions
[16:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Well, learning to use LSL is a start in programming, for many. It's those of us who've seen real languages who view it as a play pen
[16:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	We can't mute Dialog Boxes? Doesn't that overlok a popular grief mode?
[16:16]	Kaluura Boa:	For me, LSL is a bit like BASIC with some mutant features
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	So Linden Lab is going to have a week of meetings and gazing into the future later this month.
[16:17]	Charlette Proto:	for me LSL is like YAWN soo old time in every aspect comparing to new languages
[16:17]	Simon Linden:	yeah, it's missing some basic functionality when compared to a lot of other languages. It was originally focused as an engine that had to support many small scripts, and there aren't many script engines that do that well
[16:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	If LSL were working on my machine, it might be okay, for it to overwrite my CMOS, like C can
[16:17]	LSL Scientist:	yes, with dialog, anyone can crash everyone in the sandbox, and keep them away untill LL come and remove the grief from 6 sim area
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	We'll be talking about what can get done in 2010 and also in the more distant future.
[16:18]	Richard Untermeyer:	i agree with Charlette, a scripting language and API similar to the ones in the Unity3d game engine would be great
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	in 2010 we should see the Viewer 2009 I HOPE
[16:18]	Richard Untermeyer:	much more modern and user friendly
[16:18]	Andrew Linden:	I suppose someone will bring up the idea of completely rewriting the script engine, and raise the question as to whether it is even possible.
[16:19]	Kaluura Boa:	Well... If you ask..
[16:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought Mono was that discussion?
[16:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	Any word on C#?
[16:19]	Charlette Proto:	absolutely Richard and especially something that would benefit from programming expertise in other script environments
[16:19]	Simon Linden:	I think C# on top of the mono engine is the most realistic chance of an improvement
[16:19]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, MONO changed the underlying bytecode, but the state system is still around.
[16:19]	Charlette Proto:	my feeling is that JavaScript (being the most widely used language today) is the best paradigm
[16:20]	Richard Untermeyer:	agreed
[16:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	State System, you mean where we select what part of the script is active?
[16:20]	Richard Untermeyer:	but C# is cool too
[16:20]	Andrew Linden:	I think I heard someone raise the javascript idea here in LL a few months ago... I forget who it was.
[16:20]	Kaluura Boa:	I have mixed feeling toward using something created by MS
[16:20]	Charlette Proto:	yup C# is kewl but JavaScript is the future of internet as we know it today
[16:21]	Charlette Proto:	and the MS is a valid concern too
[16:21]	Charlette Proto:	ECMA consortium sucks but JavaScript works
[16:21]	LSL Scientist:	virtual world is the future of internet, so what ever SL uses, will be the future of internet ;)
[16:21]	Richard Untermeyer:	yes well like i say if people would have a look at Unity3d, it would be great to have something like that, and they can use javascript, c# AND python
[16:22]	Charlette Proto:	LSL you are a bit too optimistic about LL dominance of the internet
[16:22]	LSL Scientist:	prolly
[16:22]	Charlette Proto:	LL is a drop in the ocean as far as internet goes
[16:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	Google's gone to war against China
[16:23]	Charlette Proto:	frankly all companies (besides Yahoo) that did the circa 1995 internet are dead now and the web thrives
[16:23]	Charlette Proto:	google will go one day too
[16:23]	LSL Scientist:	i believe that virtual world will be the only form of internet some day, i hope it is some future version of SL, if LL keep developing SL fast, and SL stays the most advanced one
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, but google hasn't quite peaked in its growth, so it is pretty interesting
[16:24]	Kaluura Boa:	There is one thing LL needs to take care of urgently, that's to bring more text in SL... Text on prim, html on prim, etc, etc
[16:25]	Charlette Proto:	yes Google has room to grow yet, but it has over ten years on the clock and does too many things in a controversial manner
[16:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	The WWW might look an awful lot like Second Life, in ten years, but WWW isn't the whole of the internet
[16:25]	Charlette Proto:	Kaluura, I've been asking for inworld text for 2 years now
[16:25]	Andrew Linden:	I think virtual worlds will be big, but just like you can read 2D web content in RL, web pages will just be easily accessible in the VW, as will voice connectivity with anywon with a cell phone or comuter
[16:25]	Kaluura Boa:	LL is a bit slow... sometimes
[16:25]	Andrew Linden:	er... computer
[16:26]	Charlette Proto:	I can't believe that we still can't present information in any reliable and programatic manner
[16:26]	Kaluura Boa:	The parcel media thingy is a joke...
[16:27]	Charlette Proto:	web content is only available a page at the time on a given parcel for most users
[16:27]	Andrew Linden:	Charlette, like web pages in-world, or the "text on a prim texture" feature?
[16:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Someday, it'll be Texture Media, but there's a lot of room for development on every side
[16:27]	Charlette Proto:	yup and interactive
[16:27]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right... parcel media. I forgot about that feature.
[16:28]	Kaluura Boa:	=^_^=
[16:28]	Charlette Proto:	been asking for click and scroll functionality on prim text beyond parcel media, but it never gets votes
[16:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think that would be done Client Side
[16:28]	Ardy Lay:	Charlette, gimme JIRA
[16:29]	Kaluura Boa:	Sure... We'll vote for it
[16:29]	Charlette Proto:	haha I don't have the bookmarks from 2007 Ardy
[16:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	One problem, in SL is the expectation of a uniform product. DifferentSims will deserve different prefrnces
[16:29]	Ardy Lay:	I'll search then.
[16:29]	LSL Scientist:	SVC-4715
[16:29]	Rendering Text	on a Prim
[16:30]	LSL Scientist:	and there seemed to be many other ones too
[16:30]	Charlette Proto:	prim face text (posters and point of sale) would be good search terms Ardy
[16:30]	Arawn Spitteler	could also mention, belatedly, SVC-22 and SVC-93, not to mention SVC-2931, and he wonders if he should make that a gesture
[16:30]	llSetLinkPrimitiveParams content	breakage, only moves agents 54 meters now
[16:30]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[16:30]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[16:30]	Charlette Proto:	my JIRA was in 2007 not 2009
[16:31]	Hope McAlpine:	please excuse me
[16:31]	Hope McAlpine:	I must run now.
[16:31]	Hope McAlpine:	Arawn thank hyou for inviting me :-))))
[16:31]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming Hope.
[16:31]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[16:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	I guess I could pass along a poster
[16:31]	Hope McAlpine:	smiles once more at Arrawn
[16:31]	Hope McAlpine:	thank you
[16:32]	Hope McAlpine:	Im a RL volunteer for Red Cross ( EMS/ disaster)
[16:32]	Charlette Proto:	I always like the hop on the table exits, make me giggle
[16:32]	Hope McAlpine:	so .. thank you
[16:32]	LSL Scientist:	anyway, when we some day get text on a prim, i hope it is something fast like llSetText, not some slow stuff that call text from distant database, 99% of the SetText will be replaced with this if it is simple and fast
[16:33]	Rex Cronon:	each time text changes u have to reenter a pass:)
[16:33]	Simon Linden:	LSL - I agree ... something simple that's basic html or rtf on a prim would be best, without a lot of fancy or slow external links
[16:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've seen Floating Text lag for updating, but Text on a Surface would be similar to Texture, data about surfaces, but using text rather than UUID
[16:34]	Rex Cronon:	i think svg is quite basic
[16:35]	Andrew Linden:	Several months ago I mentioned the request for the "formatted text on prim face" feature to another LL dev and he said he'd rather see html on a prim, so you could just specify an external hosted page and have it show up on the face
[16:35]	Charlette Proto:	text on prim must be a clientside thingie like a web browser as well as inwold (like settext) with exclusive (one user sets for all viewing) event model
[16:35]	Andrew Linden:	however, it isn't so easy to control the text from an LSL script that way
[16:35]	Charlette Proto:	agree Andrew, HTML is the best way to think of it
[16:35]	Andrew Linden:	and someone mentioned here in office hours that they wanted the capability to count-down numbers on a face
[16:36]	Kaluura Boa:	...Except that for an HTML page, you need an external server
[16:36]	LSL Scientist:	most of the need is to display text produced by a script, it is overkill to send the text to external server, and then call it back for displaying
[16:36]	Rex Cronon:	SVG can be quite easy:)
[16:36]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, we need to be able to formulate displays inworld. Just loading media from outside isn't gonna cut it.
[16:36]	Charlette Proto:	forget LSL, JS in the content is a 100% necessity for interaction, use LSL to set it inworld etc
[16:36]	Simon Linden:	I have to bail out early today ... thanks everyone for coming, and I"ll see you on Tuesday
[16:36]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, but suppose LL were to provide some limited "hosted HTML namespace" for residents for their objects... that might reduce the "external server" problem
[16:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think Text on a Surface and Frames on Surface would be two different issues
[16:36]	Andrew Linden:	Alright Simon, have a good weekend.
[16:37]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon
[16:37]	Charlette Proto:	byee Simon
[16:37]	Simon Linden:	Bye - take it easy
[16:37]	Richard Untermeyer:	thank you Simon
[16:37]	Kaluura Boa:	Good weekend
[16:37]	Charlette Proto:	Fridays may always have this 'have to bail' problem
[16:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	On WEB-1406, it occured to me, when the area was scripted, that they might not have imagined changing status without payment info available. We don't know if she messed up, or if the system messeed her up
[16:38]	Panic Check	- Tier Drops need warnings, and invitations to clarify.
[16:38]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... suppose you could publish a page on prim face, and then control that page from LSL?
[16:38]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder what the LSL --> web page API would look like
[16:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	Simple, have the West Coast TGIF Party come join the hour
[16:38]	LSL Scientist:	and refresh it once a second
[16:39]	Andrew Linden:	well... if it supported javascript you could do some fancy stuff I suppose
[16:39]	Rex Cronon:	svg is faster, easier, and takes less memory
[16:39]	Rex Cronon:	in theory:)
[16:39]	Ardy Lay:	Needs to be something that does not require external support. How much data can we store as a face or object parameter?
[16:39]	LSL Scientist:	128characters to object desc
[16:40]	LSL Scientist:	not enough
[16:40]	Ardy Lay:	LLSetText() ?
[16:40]	Kaluura Boa:	Blew!
[16:40]	Andrew Linden:	ah yes, the per-object db feature idea would help for that
[16:40]	Kaluura Boa:	Bleh*
[16:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	We have a lot of textures being used for button labels, and they take a long time to rez, on my box
[16:40]	Charlette Proto:	media plugin API may be of some help with LSL 2 HTTP bridges
[16:41]	LSL Scientist:	i want to be able to dump script mem amount of string to prim face, once a second, im not in the mood to send the string anywhere, just to be called back, so no laggy database calls plz
[16:41]	Ardy Lay:	Webkit takes a while to load and seems to need an instance for each texture output to render on faces.
[16:42]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, is there a problem with having maleable data associated with a prim face?
[16:42]	Charlette Proto:	just compare these problems to what people do now to change a price on a poster and the load new textures cause before you say something wouldn't be efficient
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	Ardy, yeah some problems with that come to mind...
[16:43]	Ardy Lay:	As I understand it, the prim data only gets written to the asset storage when the prim is taken into inventory.
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	first, the simulator process already has a big memory footprint
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	we need to make it smaller rather than bigger
[16:43]	Charlette Proto:	currently the info is all textures and for sure isn't programatic in any shape or form - that is trully inefficient
[16:44]	Andrew Linden:	so if we expand the memory usage of objects we'll have to manage those resources very carefully
[16:45]	Charlette Proto:	put xStreet pages on prims so data can be on HTTP not the sim
[16:45]	Andrew Linden:	the simulator doesn't store per-face texture data, just the texture UUID's
[16:45]	Ardy Lay:	What can we scavenge from the prim's allocation that won't be used when rendering text on it? Floating text space, what else?
[16:45]	Andrew Linden:	so something similar could be done for metadata, however..
[16:45]	Andrew Linden:	assets don't change in the the asset system (write once, then read forever)
[16:45]	Ardy Lay:	Also, if we have a prim type with a single flat face, that less data.
[16:45]	Charlette Proto:	even if the functionality was limited to xStreet (etc) content to make it safer we would solve many needs
[16:46]	Andrew Linden:	and the data you'll want to store will be rather volatile -- we can't store it in assets
[16:46]	Rex Cronon:	u know how some moded viewer allow to upload temp textures. u can use something like that for text on a prim
[16:46]	Kaluura Boa:	That e can deal with
[16:46]	Kaluura Boa:	we*
[16:46]	Ardy Lay:	Right, I want it to be data that is discarded on derez.
[16:47]	Ardy Lay:	The script can be our persistence.
[16:47]	Charlette Proto:	store on HTTP server instead eg xStreet
[16:47]	Ardy Lay:	Rex, the "minni-asset service" in many simulators is getting a workout already. :-)
[16:48]	Kaluura Boa:	No problem if it's not persistant, a script will restore it on rez
[16:48]	Charlette Proto:	this way LL could control what goes up on prims to mainatin the ability to manage the world content and ban the inappropriate
[16:48]	Andrew Linden:	so, maybe if residents had a certain amount of "data" space where they could store info for their object faces...
[16:48]	Kaluura Boa:	Data space... Hmmm...
[16:48]	Andrew Linden:	not in a database, but some kind of limited "asset" system that does not grow indefinitely per user
[16:49]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, storing it would be sort of redundent as it comes from a script but we would like some storage scripts can access.
[16:49]	Charlette Proto:	give everyone HTTP storage like xStreet and you will save a lot of sim/assetserver load
[16:49]	Rex Cronon:	u could use this limited asset thing for a new type of notecard to write to it:)
[16:49]	Kaluura Boa:	We'll soon want functions to store what we want in this data space
[16:49]	Kaluura Boa:	Yeah! Writable notecard.... with another name
[16:50]	Andrew Linden:	right, suppose each resident had some http resources to which they could POST, GET, and DELETE
[16:50]	Charlette Proto:	not notecards (asset) external data and best if shared with xStreet - commerce is the most likely high demand user
[16:50]	LSL Scientist:	...and we see the net time go boom cause people will replace the current llSetText that wobble above prim to more comfy text on a prim face
[16:50]	Charlette Proto:	yes Andrew
[16:50]	Rex Cronon:	we already have http server:)
[16:50]	Rex Cronon:	sadly it returns only text
[16:50]	LSL Scientist:	ping pong the sting from script to database and back... not good
[16:51]	LSL Scientist:	string*
[16:51]	Andrew Linden:	This is sorta just daydreaming features, however I think LL will be having some of these daydream discussions over the next few weeks
[16:51]	Ardy Lay:	We are looking for a way to get data from a script to our screens. Don't we kinda have that pipeline already?
[16:52]	Charlette Proto:	about time to take some of the load off the asset servers Andrew
[16:52]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, the speed at which info could be stored and retrieved from that data store would never be fast enough for certain uses
[16:52]	Ardy Lay:	We are thinking in terms of textures and parameters.
[16:52]	Andrew Linden:	the simulator can't hold all that data in memory, at least not right now
[16:53]	Andrew Linden:	and we know we want to pull most of that kinda stuff out of the simulator anyway, and put it in web-services
[16:53]	Kaluura Boa:	Then maybe an extension to the client just to produce a texture from some programmatic description of text
[16:53]	Andrew Linden:	the idea is to boil the simulator down to: script engine, physics engine, and interestlist (which figures out what update data to send)
[16:53]	Charlette Proto:	think of it as a xStreet info on prims (interactive) and extend the paradigm to include other needs by paid up residents (or even to all except griefers) HAHA
[16:53]	Ardy Lay:	Kal, yes, where is the data?
[16:53]	Andrew Linden:	(although the interestlist needs a rewrite, it would still be in the simulator in the end)
[16:54]	Kaluura Boa:	Yep... Problem...
[16:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, when I look at a prim, and see Floating Text, is the key of that prim a reference to an asset with that text, or does the server see that same text? I don't know of any llGetText
[16:54]	Kaluura Boa:	Let's all send 1 L$ to Governor Linden to buy some more RAM
[16:54]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, when a prim is sculpted instead of some other type, how much parameter data goes unused?
[16:54]	Charlette Proto:	minimum load on the sim is a necessity in approach to finding a 'good' solution - commercial sims lag the worst
[16:55]	Charlette Proto:	by commerial I mean those with lots of vendors
[16:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	Don't commercial sims use llSensorRepeat and llListen?
[16:55]	Ardy Lay:	Hmm... that's still in the wrong place though, isn't it......
[16:55]	Ardy Lay:	Hmm....
[16:56]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... Ardy are you talking about just ways to llSetTextureText()? Controlling the face texture via some SVG code? Or are you talking about more general data containers.
[16:56]	LSL Scientist:	malls often lag a bit cause there is piles and piles of vending machines that keep refreshing textures constantly, often calling the textures from distant servers
[16:56]	Ardy Lay:	I was just talking about facing a prim.
[16:57]	Ardy Lay:	I know a lot of people want data storage but I haven't needed that yet.
[16:57]	Ardy Lay:	I do need a way to generate information displays on prim faces.
[16:58]	Andrew Linden:	and you want it interactive, could you elaborate on that?
[16:58]	Ardy Lay:	I was thinking of having a script assemble the data to be rendered. Some sort of markup language with drawing primitives.
[16:59]	Rex Cronon:	why can't we create a temp texture, on which we are allowed to draw text, lines, and to erase?
[16:59]	Ardy Lay:	The data does NOT need to persist beteen rezzes of the prim.
[16:59]	Andrew Linden:	the texture system is currently writtent to just store UUID's and the textures live in the asset system
[16:59]	Andrew Linden:	we can't have "dynamic" textures in the asset system
[17:00]	Fury Rosewood:	like your door script ardy?
[17:00]	Ardy Lay:	I would take that markup data into the viewer and render an image there to be placed on the prim face.
[17:00]	Andrew Linden:	er... temp textures -- the asset system does not scale well when you throw more and more temp assets into it
[17:00]	Fury Rosewood:	sizing script that vanishes after
[17:00]	Rex Cronon:	nyx said that in order to reduce bandwidth, two or more textures are made into one, and only that texture is sent, when avatr changes clothes
[17:00]	Ardy Lay:	Each viewer seeing the prim face would be responsible for rendering the image.
[17:00]	Andrew Linden:	right, so some data space is required to hold the texture description
[17:00]	Fury Rosewood:	...i dont know if thats what occurs tho
[17:00]	Andrew Linden:	it would have to live in the simulator memory
[17:01]	Andrew Linden:	it probably wouldn't take up too much memory... I haven't run the numbers
[17:01]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, it can maybe be accumulated in the viewer.
[17:01]	Andrew Linden:	but I know we're already full up on memory, so those numbers would have to be run
[17:01]	Ardy Lay:	Kinda like tuning in to a radio station.
[17:01]	Rex Cronon:	so a temp texture on which u draw is combined with an existing texutre for a facet, and that texture is sent
[17:01]	Andrew Linden:	and we'd have to make progress in cleaning the simulator up
[17:01]	Ardy Lay:	If you tune in late you mis part of the broadcast. :-)
[17:02]	Charlette Proto:	I still believe the sim doesn't need to see any more than the URL to what is being displayed on the prims
[17:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	If we can put HTML on a surface, why not make that an image?
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	yes, if there were a per-face URL, then the markup data could live at the URL
[17:02]	Fury Rosewood:	udp
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	which might be an external server
[17:03]	Ardy Lay:	Charlette, Snowglobe has a good portion of media-on-a-prim project in it already. That's coming.
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	and it would be cool if LL could offer some sort of internal hosting for some URL stuff
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	then all you'd need is an L
[17:04]	Charlette Proto:	HTML can be interactive and JS scripted etc to meet commerce and presentation needs - textures are too lame
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	is an LSL --> url API to get your markup there
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	yup, support for javascript would be an obvious enhancement
[17:04]	Charlette Proto:	yeah just like xStreet HTML is hosted and controlled by LL
[17:04]	LSL Scientist:	what is the deal with the memory? would text on a prim face take more memory than llSetText() that wobble above the prim?
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	well, I think it is a good idea
[17:05]	Ardy Lay:	They are getting fancy.
[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	javascript tends to lag firefox, is quite interesting what it would do to the viewer
[17:05]	Charlette Proto:	no need to open up to the can of worms without lid controls
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	maybe after Viewer2.0 we could work on that feature -- I'll bring it up with the other LL devs anyway.
[17:05]	Ardy Lay:	We want a simple, quick to change display.
[17:05]	Charlette Proto:	firefox is a joke sorry
[17:05]	Charlette Proto:	good move Andrew
[17:05]	Charlette Proto:	shame Benjamin never listened in the first place
[17:06]	Rex Cronon:	IE is not that better either:(
[17:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's the progress on TextBox?
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Benjamin? Benjamin Linden?
[17:06]	Charlette Proto:	Benjamin didn't even seem to understand the need and benefit for commerce and communications
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	What is "TextBox"?
[17:06]	Charlette Proto:	yup
[17:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	In you want your message to deliver quickly, don't get fancy.
[17:06]	Charlette Proto:	Benjamin used to hold User Experience OH
[17:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	TextBox, like llDialog?
[17:07]	Kaluura Boa:	Yep
[17:07]	Ardy Lay:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-392
[17:07]	llTextBox in	client Non-Functional - Functionality Patch Attached
[17:07]	Rex Cronon:	textbox is an inputText box that the user is promptecd to enter something in:)
[17:07]	Charlette Proto:	but he ran for BigSpaceship to fix the problems
[17:07]	Jonathan Yap:	Doesn't it work already in Emerald?
[17:07]	Ardy Lay:	"Sorry, I've been travelling for some time on extended vacation. My contributor agreement is in the mail. [ Show » ] Hewee Zetkin added a comment - 14/Jan/10 04:15 PM Sorry, I've been travelling for some time on extended vacation. My contributor agreement is in the mail. " --Hewee
[17:08]	Ardy Lay:	It's coming.
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, Benjamin was probably focusing on UI design, not "product design".
[17:08]	Charlette Proto:	and one can't make a User Experience by simply tweaking the UI
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	ok well thanks for coming. I'm going to have to go now -- got this python script that just has to get finished.
[17:09]	Charlette Proto:	User Experience is a bit broader than the colours of UI buttons
[17:09]	Richard Untermeyer:	thank you Andrew
[17:09]	Fury Rosewood:	take care simon
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	Yup, colors AND locations ;-)
[17:09]	Charlette Proto:	have a good weekend if you get any time off Andrew
[17:09]	Fury Rosewood:	er andrew
[17:09]	Fury Rosewood:	bleh -_-
[17:09]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[17:09]	Fury Rosewood	bites hand
[17:09]	Ardy Lay:	Thanks Andrew
[17:10]	Charlette Proto:	kewl; finally the text problem got a bit of airing
[17:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Good way to finish up the week, Andrew.
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Cheers.
[17:11]	Rex Cronon:	hopefully the text won't sink back to the bottom
[17:11]	Richard Untermeyer:	bye everyone tc :)
[17:11]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[17:12]	Kaluura Boa:	We should see something before 2020...

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