User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 01 19

Transcript

[10:58]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Hey Simon.
[10:59]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[10:59]	Rex Cronon:	hello simon
[10:59]	LSL Scientist:	dont know how it worked, but i understand they took the asset ID, and pasted it on their inv, and changed the permissions
[10:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	How could an exploint copied script be deleted?
[10:59]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Simon
[10:59]	xstorm Radek:	hi hi and greetings Simon
[10:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Simon
[10:59]	LSL Scientist:	cant be deleted, once someone see the souce code, the ultimate damage been done
[10:59]	Opensource Obscure:	...aaand hello everybody.
[11:00]	Rex Cronon:	i think a copied script shows no transaction
[11:00]	xstorm Radek:	hi hi open
[11:00]	Rex Cronon:	hi open
[11:00]	Simon Linden:	Andrew should be here in a minute or so
[11:00]	Ardy Lay:	I thought the rolling restart on New Year's Eve was to fix a crash bug.
[11:00]	Welcome to	Linden office hours
[11:00]	Opensource Obscure:	simon, would you tell us something about Pyogp - how is it used in SL development, testing and management? just general indications
[11:01]	Opensource Obscure:	(would you *please )
[11:01]	xstorm Radek:	has any one started to see prims thats part of items with no maker or owner names on them ?
[11:01]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Hey Andrew.
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	I can only say a little about it since I haven't used it ... people want to use it for automatic testing
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Hello
[11:01]	Opensource Obscure:	hello Andrew
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	hello andrew
[11:01]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Andrew
[11:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	That sounds like Ghosted Prims, Xstorm. Relogging often fixes.
[11:01]	xstorm Radek:	hi andrew
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	I did use it a bit a while back, actually, for some performance work
[11:02]	Ardy Lay:	I would ask Enus Linden about pyogp.
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	I was able to wrangle a crowd of AVs ... 20 or so on a simulator
[11:02]	Opensource Obscure:	it's something that powers (scripted) avatar though - right?
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	Right, Enus has been the main one behind it, I think
[11:02]	Opensource Obscure:	right, Ardy - they're the ones. thanks
[11:02]	LSL Scientist:	SVC-3514 VWR-6964 SVC-422
[11:02]	Muting object	(or object owner) does not mute dialogs
[11:02]	A solution	to scams, money theft - etc. New parcels Flag "Block Transactions
[11:02]	and other	LLMessageBox-generating functions) should be per-agent throttled, not delayed
[11:02]	xstorm Radek:	no not in this case i found a copy of a persons hair but with no maker or owner name on it and not even one script in it
[11:02]	Arawn Spitteler	casually mentions SVC-22 and SVC-93, whatever they refer to, and wonders if SVC-212 should replace SVC-2931 : Something along the Mocha Purple line did strange things to sitting, this weekend
[11:02]	llSetLinkPrimitiveParams content	breakage, only moves agents 54 meters now
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	Right, it's a python library that acts like the viewer ... it can log in, teleport to a location, etc
[11:02]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[11:02]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[11:03]	New Feature	Request - llTeleportAgent
[11:03]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Woah, easy on the JIRAs. o_o
[11:03]	LSL Scientist:	:P
[11:03]	Johan Laurasia:	JIRA OD
[11:03]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	The dialog one is important.
[11:03]	LSL Scientist:	yes
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler	waits for his triggering entry to rez, and for the eference to SVC-2931
[11:04]	xstorm Radek:	ok for prim rotation it still has problems
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler	wonders how many invisible phantom ghost colliders are using up system resources?
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	Let's see ... I don't know of any grid activity coming up, other than there's going to be a rolling restart one evening. It's related to some machines getting moved between hosting locations, I think
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	Prim Rot? Which is that? My understanding, is that someone has to create new integers for PRIM_ROT_GLOBAL and PRIM_ROT_LOCAL, and to define the protocols for handling
[11:06]	xstorm Radek:	i have seen 3 odd problems and one is rotation when it comes to a number of door scripts
[11:06]	Johan Laurasia:	read that too, that the constants have the wrong values
[11:07]	LSL Scientist:	Fresh copybots to your ban lists and orbiters: Tiff Kaestner, Enemie Soup, Emmaaa Warcliffe, wittelsbach Dench, Domonick Bellic, Silvin Hendrassen.
[11:07]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Hey Aimee.
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	xstorm ... is there a jira for those?
[11:07]	Aimee Linden:	h;lo :)
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Welcome Aimee Linden.
[11:08]	xstorm Radek:	i do not know yet im still trying to get it to work the same every time
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	how do u determine that somebody is a copybot user?
[11:08]	Aimee Linden:	hi Andrew :)
[11:08]	Opensource Obscure:	:) Aimee Aimee !!
[11:08]	LSL Scientist:	when someone builds a hair in 11 seconds it is pretty clear
[11:08]	xstorm Radek:	hi Aimee
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	Hi Aimee ... welcome :)
[11:08]	A group	member named Pae Sinister owned by the group 'Clan Indigo' gave you ColorHUD 2 Update to Version 1.1.
[11:08]	Johan Laurasia:	lol
[11:09]	Aimee Linden:	:)
[11:09]	xstorm Radek:	yes and about them copybot i know some one is doing it to the hair makers in sl
[11:09]	Rex Cronon:	lsl. i have a script that can build my objects that fast
[11:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Aimee; welcome, to the remind andrew of all those isues he'll never fix hour
[11:09]	Vernes Veranes:	LSL: That's a scripted build, but is it a illigal copy?
[11:09]	Aimee Linden:	shift-drag copying has the same effect on prim creation times I think too
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	Now we have a viewer dev here to send all those questions to :)
[11:09]	Aimee Linden:	to that's not a definite copybot criteria
[11:10]	Aimee Linden	hides under the table
[11:10]	LSL Scientist:	it is illegal when someone is wearing a demo hair from creator X and then suddenly has full perms identical hair with different creator
[11:10]	Aimee Linden:	*so that's
[11:10]	Johan Laurasia:	what about the viewers popping up that have copybot buillt right into the viewer
[11:10]	Rex Cronon:	ok. that sounds fishy
[11:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, I was wondering what project tjira regarding pick order? Is that Weeb, SVC or VWR?
[11:10]	Opensource Obscure:	Johan: LL already told what is their position about that
[11:10]	Vernes Veranes:	LSL: that is a verfied copy-bot action. not just a fast build.
[11:11]	LSL Scientist:	it is very clear when someone wear a demo hair and then suddenly have identical hair with full perms
[11:11]	xstorm Radek:	no but when you see some one use a script tool to copy a item made by another person that had no copy / no mod and no trans on it just so they can sale it on xstreet that not a good thing
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	Arawn - that sounds like VWR, but it'll get shuffled in triage if that's not the best place
[11:13]	LSL Scientist:	that silvin for example, even left the "demo" sign in the object, jsut scaled it small and hide it inside the hair prims, didnt even bother to unlink it
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, what is the "pick order" bug?
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	New Feature, rather than Bug. When I was doing Burning Lag, I wanted my build at the toip of my links, but heard some grumbling about using characters to unfairly order.
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	If I want something higher in my picks, I should hav it there.
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	This is the picks tab in your profile?
[11:15]	Vernes Veranes:	LSL: The discription you mention needs to be somehow be registered. Screenshot? uuid's? I don't know. But when you get on the list, it has to be verifiable.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Ah I see. Yeah, set it to VWR -- it would certainly need some UI changes to support the shuffling.
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Yeah, What I pick first, should be displayed first, and I shouldn't have to use an exclamation point, that others wouldn't want
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	It would also need WEB Support, I think
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	It looks like they are alphabetical now, which is probably how you can shuffle it with the leading character, but that'll get ugly fast
[11:16]	LSL Scientist:	i used to take screenshots, but nowdays you see several copybots a day, i dont have money to take screenshots anymore,
[11:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think it's been deuglified, by neglect of those parcels that cheat
[11:16]	Vernes Veranes:	LSL: you import them? why not store it locally and upload to a website?
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Preventing copybot copies via software intelligence would be very hard to do, and would be part of the unwinnable "arms race" we often talk about.
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	load them to photobucket, lsls
[11:17]	LSL Scientist:	im not keeping any official list, just keeping a list for my own amusement
[11:18]	Vernes Veranes:	Well, it sounds like somethin people might use if they knew it existed.
[11:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	An official list, somewhere, supported by a club, liscenced to warn through that list
[11:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	Detectors could watch for agents on that list, or add to ban list
[11:18]	Vernes Veranes:	Which is why the proof is importent, and needs to be stored alongside the list-entry. screenshot.
[11:19]	Vernes Veranes:	It's too easy to grief using the list.
[11:19]	Vernes Veranes:	So proof is importent.
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	What'sthe camera limit, for a bot?
[11:19]	Opensource Obscure:	Arawn: don't get offended but I think filing this kind of bug right now doesn't make much sense - this will be probably changed in the upcoming viewer, right? (that said I share you request and I'll vote it :)
[11:19]	LSL Scientist:	problem with such list is that it must be made so that it cannot be abused
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	Evidence and Appeal
[11:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	That's why you communicate with club members; bots can't do Everything, or Man woulnd't need us Gods
[11:20]	LSL Scientist:	when i get more comfy with C++, i plan to make some kind of client plugin to take the screen captures and stuff, and make proper list and detection system
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	So, there is a team here at LL that will be working on "content management" issues -- relating to copyright enforcement and preventing copybot (where possible)
[11:21]	xstorm Radek:	i have seen a copy bot copy a full building in the korea 1 sim so i do know bots can do a not no matter what the bot is
[11:21]	xstorm Radek:	lot
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	I've had some discussions with the team and relayed my ideas on how to confound copybot in a few places.
[11:21]	Vernes Veranes:	I think that when you suspect a copy-bot product to be shown, you need to add a reference to the original product. The product-creator should close the registration procedure by acknoledging the suspected copy.
[11:21]	Opensource Obscure:	"*preventing* copybot" - that's interesting
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	But otherwise, I'm not working on that stuff.
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Opensource, there are a few ways to make it harder for copybot to function.
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, we're going around in circles again on this ... whatever is sent to the viewer to draw the scene for you can be copied, since you have the bits and it's open source. There's not much we're going to be able to change at that level.
[11:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	Open Grid is outside the linden capacity to enforce, and people might click copy, to get stuff there.
[11:23]	LSL Scientist:	now my list has only stuff like this: Silvin Hendrassen = Botting hairs created by Sebass Easterwood
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	I'm also not working in that area ... think it would drive me (further) nuts
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Eventually, Copyright Law gets invovled, or not
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	right, and IANAL (I am not a lawyer).
[11:23]	xstorm Radek:	i like to know why is it now that so many people are starting to use copybots now when i know we had them back in 2007 and they never got to this point as they have now there must be a group in sl pushing people to use them
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	if is very hard(even impossible) to stop coybots, at least allow people to to manually a quick comparisson between products to see how similar they r
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	I once looked at The Constitution, and saw mention it's an authorityassigned to Congress
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, I think the copybot tools are just getting much better, they just work like good features.
[11:25]	Johan Laurasia:	right, the easier it gets to do, the more it will happen
[11:25]	LSL Scientist:	yes, copybotting something is only 2 clicks, buying the item require more clicks
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	Copybot products in SL could simply be backsplatter, from OGP
[11:26]	xstorm Radek:	then the system that records the UUID must get better and record the users PC chip ID too
[11:26]	Vernes Veranes:	So currently, we can only register what already has been copied, which we can't since there is no central report website.
[11:26]	xstorm Radek:	that way you can track what people are making copys of others peoples items with a copybot
[11:27]	LSL Scientist:	something like SVC-5206
[11:27]	New flag	to texture properties: "This texture/sculpt can only exist on prims created by me
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	why not allow another option on the pie menu, that allows u to give the UUID of a different linked object and have that object compared with this obejct to see how similar they r:)
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	LL is working on some improved tools for registering copyright infringement. I think we've blogged about this in the past.
[11:29]	LSL Scientist:	as written there, full perms prims are a problem, but i bet many creators would happily make new account for selling their stuff and not give full perms prims with that account to have lil more protection over their work
[11:29]	Vernes Veranes:	Looking forward to that.
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	So suppose it was much much easier to register copyright claims, and we had a pipelien to process them (hypothetical I know but bear with me)...
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	you'd still need some tools to better identify the copyright infringements that you want to file
[11:30]	Rex Cronon:	andrew. do u mean DMCAs?
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	(this relates to the idea of the "registered content" list)
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, DMCA's
[11:30]	office hours	is half over
[11:31]	xstorm Radek:	that will be great for i do know a number of people in SL that have been taking copy of items made in sl and moving them to there own opensim server in there home to rent there open sim to others
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not sure the registered content idea would work very well for a central service... it would be hard to scale.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	However, suppose someone were to write a "registered content scanner" into the viewer
[11:32]	xstorm Radek:	that be great
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	such that each creator could register their own content, and then scan all content that they see, looking for too-high correlation similarities
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-1435
[11:33]	under the	Picks Tab
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	i am sorry, but we already have a registered content list
[11:33]	xstorm Radek:	but thats like a better lock is it not only the good people are the ones that will use it ?
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Such a system could be "parallelized" if content creators were to share their personal lists of registered content with other residents, who would include those items in their own scanners.
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	everything in your inventory has a date/time and creator
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Like scanning for fingerprints, technically
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	It isn't a foolproof system, but could be used to catch copies much faster, and more thoroughly.
[11:34]	Bronson Blackadder:	hey its a step in the right direction
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	There'd be time of creation, and creator, and time of revelation, and inventory items also need a time and agent of last modification
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	Such a system could be written, but depends on LL having a copyright infringment processing system that could keep up with the flood.
[11:35]	xstorm Radek:	why not make a longer UUID code to permit the builder data on it so that it is encoded in a way it shows the maker even if some one was to copy it ?
[11:35]	Vernes Veranes:	Rex: these values are not kept when copied, it's more like texture fingerprints and prim-params
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	It is being worked on, but otherwise I dont' know much about it.
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Builder Data wouldn't be carried on a copy
[11:36]	Vernes Veranes:	xstorm: It wou;dn't work when content is re-created from nothing, using copied data
[11:36]	xstorm Radek:	it can de if the UUID was not seen by the user system just on the server side
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Eventually I think copyright infringement claims could be processed in a somewhat automated way...d
[11:37]	xstorm Radek:	all data is recorded with a imprint of its first maker
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	UserA claims that UserB copied ItemA with ItemB -- the system could drag up the assets for each and do a comparison
[11:37]	xstorm Radek:	even if you do copy it
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	You'd have toput that in the data of the texture
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	That wouldn't be in the UUID
[11:37]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	u just need 2 keys, and an algorithm to do that:)
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	the comparison would have be sorta fuzzy, and compute a likelihood that something was a copy -- it would be very hard to know for sure.
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	It could also be erased, without aesthetic effect
[11:38]	xstorm Radek:	think like a uuid water mark
[11:38]	Johan Laurasia:	it could also be thrown off by slight edits to the object as well
[11:38]	Tobias Houston:	Andrew, you're right -- unclear cases could be presented to a human
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	watermarks in the textures would be helpful for such an automated comparison
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	I recall Zero kicking such ideas about; it's a challenge of how to control content copies, in the ope grid
[11:38]	Rex Cronon:	there r ways to overcome that, johan:)
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	in any case, such a tool would take a while to implement
[11:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	A couple days to implement, and a couple days to work around
[11:39]	Vernes Veranes:	It also requires some neutrality to it. Would be nice if random users would register the content theft, instead of teh creator actively searching for it.
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, it would be an arms race, however perhaps worth running some of it.
[11:40]	Johan Laurasia:	question, when an item is copyied, is the host agent's build tools functions used to create the object?
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	There are other tools to be written -- a "creator's reputation" system for example
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Voluteer Copy Hunters Guild, as anRPG
[11:41]	Vernes Veranes:	Arawn: for instance. yes.
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	which could use peer pressure and identity info to help legit creators rise above copiers
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't kow how much of our build tools are client side
[11:41]	xstorm Radek:	think of it this way user A imports a texture in to sl there viewer water marks a uuid code saying you did the import of texture next when user B trys to copybot users A item it makes the watermark UUID code trigers the data on the server showing it had been copy
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	I rememer chatting with a sim owner, when I'd gotten the invite to a copy protest a couple hours late
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	Once it gets easier to find and crack down on copiers then the punishments (three strikes your out for example) would put pressure on some.
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	the problem is if sombody used a CC texture from the web. that could stop others from using i:(
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	it:(
[11:43]	Ardy Lay:	3 strikes? Open registration with no verification makes that useless.
[11:43]	Vernes Veranes:	xstorm: most watermarks rely on the fact there is alot of data to hide the watermark in, when this is know, people will add randomized color variations to screw up the watermark.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Some watermarks are resilient to noise -- that is what makes a good watermark.
[11:44]	LSL Scientist:	bottom line is that we can prolly never completely prevent copybotting, but we can sure make it lot harder, and start to remove the copied content from the asset servers
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Also, fingerprinting can help -- but as mentioned it would only produce a probability -- a human would have to make the call for boderline stuff.
[11:44]	Melchizedek Blauvelt:	I suppose they'll weed out some of the more vulgar/lazy copiers
[11:45]	Vernes Veranes:	Anderw: I agree, in the and it's humans calling out on copies. this process needs to be supported, made easy.
[11:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	Phillip, here is a moral problem, being a copy, but the originals haven't the floating text identifier
[11:45]	xstorm Radek:	i love a way to know if i have items that was copyboted in my inventory so i can feel better about my inventory
[11:45]	Vernes Veranes:	("in the end", typo flood :S )
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... there is no Phillip Linden with two L's.
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Ah I see... he is an object.
[11:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	He's standing right here
[11:46]	xstorm Radek:	no the phillip linden is a fake prim avatar
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Yup
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	Marianne gave me what for, over his illegal immigration status
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've the Art Laxness Pack, if anyone wantws
[11:47]	Johan Laurasia:	I've chatted with the real deal... very nice guy
[11:47]	xstorm Radek:	some griefers founf they can hide there name tag and put up a fake name above them
[11:47]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	That's some client side trick.
[11:48]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Seen it before on people who aren't griefers.
[11:48]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Really made it difficultt to figure out who they were until I right clicked them and went to their profile.
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	u can hide your name tag, and use a fake one?
[11:48]	xstorm Radek:	and people that have chat with the real philip linden will not tell any one any way lol
[11:48]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Yup - not sure if it's been fixed or not.
[11:48]	Vernes Veranes:	invisi-prim above your head, particle texture?
[11:48]	LSL Scientist:	i once found the shop of the person who created that sculpt noob, was selling it for 100L, bet he/she dont sell many, since everyone have that botted noob
[11:48]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	No - actually changing it.
[11:49]	xstorm Radek:	yep
[11:49]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Even the mouse hover-tip is fooled by it.
[11:49]	xstorm Radek:	they use a invis prim to hide there tag and they can be ban for doing it
[11:49]	Vernes Veranes:	ah, hovertip fooled by no description and Object name
[11:50]	Vernes Veranes:	xstorm, banned for putting a invisi prim above your head?
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... the render order should be changed to fix that bug.
[11:50]	Johan Laurasia:	I think not
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	It is a viewer-side bug.
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	i find that hard to believe, xstrom
[11:50]	Johan Laurasia:	Take notes Aimee
[11:50]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's Viewer Side, so it IS all Aimee's Fault
[11:50]	Vernes Veranes:	Andrew: the invisi-prim or the fact your name can be hidden by it?
[11:50]	xstorm Radek:	yes hiding the name tag and putting up a fake one is a no no
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	The fact that your name can be hidden behind it.
[11:51]	Vernes Veranes:	xstrorm: I think it's more that you can be banned for pretending to be a linden. I I would like to rp a fictive character, and found the nametag a problem, I would use that trick.
[11:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	Back to SVC-212 in what little time remains to change the subject. Is that held back, by fear of Griefer Mode? If it's a forced TP, it should be pretty easy to track down a parcel owner
[11:52]	New Feature	Request - llTeleportAgent
[11:52]	Johan Laurasia:	hard to fool avatar scanners though (unless you're a linden)
[11:52]	xstorm Radek:	why not just make a ALT for such things ?
[11:53]	Vernes Veranes:	xstorm, the question was if you would be banned for using it, regardless of the context, I think not.
[11:53]	Simon Linden:	I think it's been held back more by lack of resources for those kinds of new features than a specific griefer mode
[11:53]	Simon Linden:	We'd have to make sure it wasn't a really easy griefer technique, of course
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, SVC-212 has a nice long discussion. I'm sure the correct feature design is in there somewhere.
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	llTeleportAgent was an almost, around Server 1.8
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	We want time tunnels that dump us in random universes
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, lack of resources is why it isn't done yet.
[11:54]	xstorm Radek:	?
[11:54]	Rex Cronon:	i guess everybody at ll is either working on viwer2.0:)
[11:55]	xstorm Radek:	what are you asking Arawn ? lol
[11:55]	Rex Cronon:	or on meshes:)
[11:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	I forget what year it was a new feature request, but Torley mentioned it was near implementation, some time ago
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	yes Rex, it sometimes seems like that to me too.
[11:55]	office hours	is almost over
[11:56]	Johan Laurasia:	that's a good thing though, isn't it?
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	If I understand what Meshes are, stable hollows would get a priority
[11:56]	xstorm Radek:	if we had a way to have more then mesh on one prim it will help with the alpha problems
[11:57]	xstorm Radek:	more then one mesh
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	One of the worries about mesh is that the average content of regions will put even more load on the physics engine.
[11:57]	Rex Cronon:	and possibly on bandwidth:(
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, another worrry.
[11:57]	Vernes Veranes:	which brings us to cache
[11:58]	Simon Linden:	It may get heavy for the viewer too ... some of the Linden Homes regions got complaints about performance due to over-use of sculpties. Viewer fps was low
[11:58]	xstorm Radek:	but a sim is made up of more then one mesh on its sim
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Bandwidth? that would be the Sculpty problem
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, caching should be better.
[11:58]	Vernes Veranes:	I mean, I am pretty sure some of these walls will be here in the next 10 years
[11:58]	Vernes Veranes:	But the viewer just keeps streaming them in
[11:58]	Tobias Houston:	is there a third party viewer which does this better?
[11:58]	Rex Cronon:	sculptie generate lag because people use 512x512 images:(
[11:59]	Vernes Veranes:	Someway of making content STATIC, would be something
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	In Snowglobe, what's behind isn't cached
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Good question... does Emerald have an improved cache system?
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, there's the download as well as drawing all those triangles
[11:59]	xstorm Radek:	oh your talking about a no call for update on items unless they have been updated ???
[12:00]	Vernes Veranes:	The server that doesn't have to send 90% to 30% of the agents in the sim, is a less overworked server.
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, if the viewer were to cache textures better then it would reduce bandwidth
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	and at the moment... the viewer gets the texture when it asks for it
[12:00]	xstorm Radek:	that will slow things down on the user side more
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	and to think that we could have sculpties that use one 2x2 images:(
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	image*
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	so there is opporunity to improve the cache without any server work
[12:00]	xstorm Radek:	i hate low rez images
[12:00]	Thank you	for coming to Linden office hours
[12:00]	Vernes Veranes:	xstorm: no, it increases HD usage at the client side more.
[12:00]	Aimee Linden:	there's a lot of work on caching happened in Snowglobe
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	That's good to hear
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	I have to run to a meeting ... have them lined up today.
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for coming
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	if done right it should be possible to improve the viewer cache with little to no performance costs
[12:01]	Johan Laurasia:	I've been checking out snowglobe lately... the web kit plugin keeps crashing on me
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon
[12:01]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	See you Simon.
[12:01]	Melchizedek Blauvelt:	I'd love an option to store this platform in a "permanent cache" of some sorts
[12:01]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	And Andrew.
[12:01]	Johan Laurasia:	or 'failing to initialize'
[12:01]	Vernes Veranes:	By Simon
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	Bye everyone
[12:01]	Vernes Veranes:	bye
[12:02]	Johan Laurasia:	by guyes
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think I might be mainstream viewer, atm, because of the Webkit issue
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I've got to go too. Thanks for coming everyone.

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