User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 03 02

Transcript

[11:00]	Welcome to	Linden office hours
[11:00]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	Um, I have a 22" monitor with a resolution of 1920x1080 and I see too little 3D view.
[11:00]	Imaze Rhiano:	I think that I will loot freezer and get some evening snack...
[11:01]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	You can't run SL on dual-monitors.
[11:01]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	I try stretching the window to the second screen and it just crashes.
[11:02]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	And people who generally can't run AA have that? I don't think so.
[11:02]	Liisa Runo:	yea.. i hope SL starts to support dual monitors soon, and floater moving out from SL window
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	very unlikely. it will break imerssion
[11:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hey Simon
[11:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	And Andew
[11:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew*
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[11:03]	Johan Laurasia:	Hi guys
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Hi
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew, simon
[11:04]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi	waves.
[11:04]	Psi Merlin:	Hello
[11:04]	Liisa Runo:	i have script window open almost all the time, so im almost always blind, if i could move the script window to second monitor, i would see more SL
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	we're late because I called Simon in for a code review right befor this meeting
[11:04]	Alexia Leborski:	hello
[11:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	No worries
[11:04]	Johan Laurasia:	well, at least minimizing windows goes to the top not bottom anymore
[11:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It's only 4-5 minutes
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	I think I fixed some of those bugs about people still being able to teleport to parcels/regions from which they are banned -- if their home location is there.
[11:05]	Squirrel Wood:	you are not even fashionably late :p
[11:05]	Liisa Runo:	good to hear andrew :)
[11:05]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	They do but typing is better for archiving chat.
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	I'm rarely fashionable :)
[11:05]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	And not everyone has voice enabled.
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	heh, I'm voice enabled, but I'm not wearing the headphones
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	so I've effectively muted my sound
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	I have voice but took the headphones off
[11:06]	Squirrel Wood:	What we see happen is people on estate ban being found in sims they are banned from. you have to additionally parcel ban them to keep them out
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Squirrel, I'll try to reproduce that bug and fix it.
[11:07]	Sahkolihaa Contepomi:	I think that's the 'login to <sim_name> that causes that.
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	Squirrel - do you know how they entered? TP, login, go home, etc?
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	I started a little sprint on TP bugs last week.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	the sprint wandered into this week
[11:07]	Squirrel Wood:	dunno how they re-enter but you find it happens in Furnation Hell a LOT :)
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	don't the hacked viewers allow that?
[11:07]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Wb Fluffy
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	but I was about to stop -- I think I fixed only two or three main bugs, but I suspect there are several duplicate bugs that I'll be able to close
[11:07]	Squirrel Wood:	and they most lilely use some sort of homebrew viewer, yes
[11:08]	Fluffy Loon:	Thanks.
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	it may be that the "explicit ban from region/estate" bug is fixed by my recent changes. I'll have to test.
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	If not, I'll fix that and then end my sprint.
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to try to work on region crossing bugs next.
[11:09]	Squirrel Wood:	Lets hope for the best then :)
[11:09]	Johan Laurasia:	woot
[11:09]	Johan Laurasia:	that will go over big
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	What is that popular region crossing bug? SVC-22 I think.
[11:09]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, that one. I'll at least look into it to see if it is possible to fix it in the time I've got.
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I think that's all I've got for announcements.
[11:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, were you able to talk to Kelly, by chance?
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	There's another server rollout starting today ... 1.36.4
[11:12]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Any release notes?
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, no... and I've forgotten what I was supposed to ask him about, but I wrote it down somewhere...
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	Plus some full grid downtime tomorrow morning PST
[11:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Any idea what happened to Ambleside, around 8:30 this morn?
[11:12]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	No worries
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	I don't see any release notes ... I'm pretty sure it's a very limited change for some security issue or something
[11:13]	xstorm Radek:	like a NDA ?
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	ah, here they are : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Beta_Server/1.36 #1.36.4.202274_.282010-02-25.29
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, today's partial deploy is some security bug
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	but since it is security related they aren't revealing any details about it
[11:14]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hey there Fisher
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	but I know it isn't a permissions problem
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	SVC-4632 is fixed, that has to do with estate and land bans
[11:14]	People getting	past Estate and Land bans
[11:14]	xstorm Radek:	oh so are you the persons that did a restart on poor pathfinders office ?
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Ambleside was shutdown at 08:28 this morning. Looks like it was part of the partial deploy that is happening today.
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	WE're trying a larger pilot roll today, and a full roll on Thursday
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	It didn't come back up, after half an hour
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	I think 20% today, 80% on Thursday
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	THere's been some internal discussion about how effective the pilot rolls are, and how to do it better
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	heh, no the guys in the #deploy channel restarted the regions.
[11:16]	xstorm Radek:	can you please do Trendone now ??? we are running a RL to SL theater story time in trendone
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	I think the talking point that kicked off the discussion about how to improve pilot rolls was the fact that during a recent pilot roll a bug wasn't discovered until the first half of the full deploy
[11:17]	Simon Linden:	Andrew and I aren't directly involved in the rollouts ... we sit back and hope they go smoothly and our bug fixes dont' blow up in our faces :)
[11:17]	Johan Laurasia:	lol
[11:17]	Honey Popstar:	hee hee
[11:17]	Johan Laurasia:	so you sit there and sweat
[11:18]	xstorm Radek:	lol damn them bugs im starting to think Pink Linden is one of the bug builders
[11:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	Set Office Hours in Aditi, and Pilot Roll there, before them.
[11:18]	Tillie Ariantho:	grrr, can someone fix the memory bug in the windows client? :-(
[11:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Like a dad waiting for his baby to be born. Except in this case, sometimes the doctor says, "Oops! Not done yet!" and puts it back in lol
[11:18]	Johan Laurasia:	Aditi seems quite busted atm
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	I didn't participate in the pilot roll discussion, but I've brought it up internally in the past that if we had an "early adopters" program kinda like we had during the Havok4 transition we could probably find more bugs in the pilot rolls.
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	however, I think the Havok4 transition was "special"
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	because even though the H4 regions were buggy, they didn't crash nearly as much
[11:19]	Simon Linden:	I was in the discussion and pushing exactly that ... get more testing and eyes on the Aditi code before we go onto the full grid
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	so lots of region owners were willing to live with the bugs
[11:20]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	At Oskar Linden's office hours, he said that there would be an early adopter's program TBA in the SL Beta group.
[11:20]	xstorm Radek:	?
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	but Simon, I think that for most of the stuff we're pushing out these days, the benefits from the most recent bleeding edge simulator version might not outweigh instabilities for most region owners.
[11:20]	xstorm Radek:	why push the date up ?
[11:20]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Would be nice if the estate owner can restart a regine to previous or new code. Give them a choice.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Oh really Sebastean? Ok, sounds like Oskar is moving forward on that.
[11:21]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	His answer was pretty definite, so I think there will be. I had our sim signed up, heh.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Well, even if we could get 100 regions in the EA program that would help us shake out new bugs.
[11:21]	xstorm Radek:	if you push thinks out to fast more users may find points why not to stay using Sl if more problems crop up
[11:22]	xstorm Radek:	can not we take longer when it comes to testing and only us some sims inworld for this testing ?
[11:22]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The last code rollout, textures are very slow to load no matter what clietn you use.
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect Oskar will be needing to provide tools for the region owners, so they can easily opt-out of the program or back in
[11:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	Office Hours are events of experienced users
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, could you elaborate on that question? You think the pilot roll should last longer? Or maybe your asking if LL can just "test more and longer" ?
[11:23]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	office_hours( integer attendees, string linden_name, list bugs_fixed )
[11:24]	xstorm Radek:	plus talking as a mainland sim owner getting bad server updates and roll backs do not help the way people see second life
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	yeah Techwolf, I think you hit the nail on the head. If there were an easy way for residents to test new simulator versions then they might test their own content on it.
[11:24]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	if (attendees > 5) llGetPizza(PIZZA_HUT,LARGE);
[11:25]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I pulled up the map today and see lots of red squares. Lots of regines was not commming back up.
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	That could be scripted into the table, as long as you order Farmville Flavored Pizza
[11:25]	xstorm Radek:	is there not a pretest program for sim owners when it comes to rollouts ?
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Techwolf, dunno what that was exactly, but probably related to the fact that grid is in "startup" mode.
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	During the rolling restart we put it in "startup" mode so that regions that go down don't hop to new servers as often.
[11:26]	Arawn Spitteler:	Shouldn't regions reset in five minutes?
[11:26]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Pathfinder Linden Office Hour got restarted, thats when I saw all the red squrees, the regine path was in never went red.
[11:26]	Squirrel Wood:	do not trust what the map tells you ^^
[11:26]	Squirrel Wood:	it often lags behind a wee bit
[11:27]	xstorm Radek:	startup mode some times seems to be when the server has restart problems and it takes longer then 5 min to restart a sim
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	yes but... the "world map" status that says whether a region is up or not is cached, and is updated less often than 5 min
[11:27]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, I can say for myself, before I actually joined the beta grid and started following it, as a resident, I "saw" getting on the betagrid as a massively technical endeavor. It wasn't, but that's how I saw it. Also Oskar said he's doing all user transfers by hand now, to save on space. So if people don't know they have to request to have their avatars copied over from a linden, that's one more obstacle they won't want to overcome.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	someone told me recently that the world map updates every 30 min
[11:27]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Too bad 2.0 does not show when a regine is down.
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... Sebastean good points.
[11:28]	xstorm Radek:	our sim takes 24 hours befor showing what we do to the sim
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	What should happen is that anyone who tries to connect to the beta grid would trigger their transfer.
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	The transfer takes a while... a minute or two
[11:29]	Techwolf Lupindo:	And the login bar did say that.
[11:29]	xstorm Radek:	so it must take 24 hours to show any map up dates
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	so maybe they should get a message that says something like: "transfering your info, try again in a few minutes"
[11:29]	Techwolf Lupindo:	It said "Tranfering inventory, please wait"
[11:29]	Johan Laurasia:	by transfer, do you mean inventory update?
[11:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	Untransfered people transfer, or continual renewal?
[11:29]	Chaley May:	this table is big today
[11:29]	Simon Linden:	I think part of the problem is that Oskar is overloaded ... running a good beta program like that is really a lot of work (and worth it, IMHO) but he has a lot of other stuff on his plate too
[11:29]	Fisher Linden:	Oskar is working on a "kiosk" to allow users to xfer their inventory themselves
[11:29]	Techwolf Lupindo:	How big can this table get?
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, yeah the image in the map takes 24 hours to update
[11:29]	Simon Linden:	10x10?
[11:30]	Liisa Runo:	many sims have gadget that draws the time and date to the world map, and it seems the map get updated once a day
[11:30]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Well, it's a little different, transferring inventory, from actually creating the avatar on the beta grid to transfer the inventory to.
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	but the "region is up and available" status is updated every 30 min, I think.
[11:30]	office hours	is half over
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	that is what determins whether you get a red or blue circle on the world map (in the old 1.23 viewer)
[11:30]	Honey Popstar:	hee hee cute simon ..10x10
[11:30]	Simon Linden:	Didn't want to bring up the M word :)
[11:30]	Fisher Linden:	Actually, not really
[11:31]	Fisher Linden:	But, yes, Oskar's kiosk is just for inventory
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	? what is the M word? map?
[11:31]	Fisher Linden:	He wants to do the create personally
[11:31]	Sebastean Steamweaver	idly wonders if Fisher Linden is a king in pauper's clothing.
[11:31]	Simon Linden:	megaprim
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	oh that M word
[11:31]	Squirrel Wood:	mega prim ?
[11:31]	Andrew Linden	isn't in the mood to talk about megaprims today.
[11:31]	Squirrel Wood:	20x20x20 would be nice to have as normal edit limits :p
[11:32]	Simon Linden:	Chat's breaking down with more than 2 conversations at once :)
[11:32]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Need avatar update too. Invite only groups can be inviged on teh beta grid.
[11:32]	Chaley May:	Mega and Meagre prims
[11:32]	Squirrel Wood:	Simon, you on Viewer 2 ?
[11:32]	Techwolf Lupindo:	One sim I have pacel powers is on beta, but I'mt not in the group.
[11:32]	Tiberious Neruda:	good...
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not a fan of the spacing of chat text in Viewer-2.0
[11:32]	Tiberious Neruda:	...the subject's been brought up
[11:32]	Simon Linden:	Yes, I'm using viewer 2
[11:33]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Nor I, Andrew.
[11:33]	Chaley May:	yeah its like the put mega prims in chat
[11:33]	Squirrel Wood:	no wonder you can't keep up with multiple conversations then ;)
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	and the chat window can't be made transparent
[11:33]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Perhaps they could make that a definable option.
[11:33]	Simon Linden:	I changed the prefs to have the really small chat text ... it packs a lot of text together
[11:33]	Squirrel Wood:	you can set the chat window to display text like it used to
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... I wonder if we'll have to move to voice in these office hours once everyone is using Viewer 2.0
[11:33]	Tiberious Neruda:	have you found yourself turning away or focusing on something UI-related when pulling up or hiding the sidebar?
[11:33]	Chaley May:	i think we should have 32x32
[11:33]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	No Andrew, noooo :(
[11:34]	Chaley May:	best to have a multiple of 2 to fit these sims better
[11:34]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Andrew, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Tweaks
[11:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	Could I invite some Deaf People, so you could repeat the question
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	that was supposed to be a joke
[11:34]	Tiberious Neruda:	ok, until you guys can make Viewer 2.0 NOT require a bottle of aspirin to use...
[11:34]	Techwolf Lupindo:	There is a hack to decrease teh chat spaceing.
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	ah, thanks for that link Techwolf. I'll look it over later.
[11:34]	Rex Cronon	shouts: for those of u that r using v2.0, u should the following: xml
[11:34]	Tiberious Neruda:	please no talk of making us use 2.0 or nothing
[11:34]	Rex Cronon:	https://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/11874
[11:34]	Fisher Linden:	I love 2.0. :-)
[11:35]	Rex Cronon:	sorry, i have some lag on my end:(
[11:35]	Johan Laurasia:	I like it for the most part, but there are a few issues
[11:35]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	2.0 need swork :P But I believe it is actually being worked on.
[11:35]	Chaley May:	i hate voice but thats nothing compared to my hatred of v2
[11:35]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Debug setting: ToastGap -- set to 0 to close up the gap between popup chats
[11:35]	Tiberious Neruda:	I mean, I'll admit that there are a scant few good things to come from 2.0
[11:35]	Psi Merlin:	There's a simple viewer 2 xml tweak to extend the chat bar, making it usabel in meetings again.
[11:36]	Tiberious Neruda:	....but it's sompletely submerged in the steaming pile that is 99% of the UI
[11:36]	Johan Laurasia:	the shared media is great
[11:36]	Rex Cronon:	there are some nice "hacks" there that make v2.0 more bearable:)
[11:36]	Chaley May:	can i have a steaming pile instead of the UI.. is that possible?
[11:36]	Psi Merlin:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Tweaks
[11:36]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Do those hacks include detachable sidebar components?
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	yes, we knew that passions would strong over Viewer2.0
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	I know the viewer team really wants to make the UI more extensible and configurable in the long run
[11:36]	ATechwolf Foxclaw:	I'me using 2.0 here with the sidbar hacks. No resetting the center view and pops over floaters.
[11:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I believe they're going to try, but it has had something of a rough start.
[11:37]	Tiberious Neruda:	my primary beef comes with that sidebar
[11:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'm using it now, and I'm getting "used to it" but I still don't "like" it yet.
[11:37]	Johan Laurasia:	I like it
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler's	lost on the SL2 UI
[11:37]	Chaley May:	whats the thoughts at Linden Labs to the negative response most have given about viewer 2?
[11:37]	Johan Laurasia:	I like the new outfit system too, with links rather than copying objects
[11:37]	Chaley May:	are they going to do something about it
[11:38]	Techwolf Lupindo:	http://www.questionpro.com/akira/ShowResults?id=1604314&mode=data
[11:38]	Honey Popstar:	2.0 gives me a headache granted there are some neat features but its not as easy to finde things i will admit it took me 15 min. to figure out how to upload a texture cause i could not find whee to do it lol
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Chaley, LL was expecting both positive and negative responses to V2.
[11:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'm sure they will Chaley, it's just a matter of time.
[11:38]	Psi Merlin:	Viewer 2 needs more options for configuration to suit difference experience a dnneeds
[11:38]	Tiberious Neruda:	no longer can I view profiles as I'm used to in 1.23/Emerald... because the FOV of the world view is changed in a jarring and eye-straining manner
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	We have not been disappointed on either side.
[11:38]	Johan Laurasia:	dWell, it seems any change gets ppl miffed
[11:38]	Squirrel Wood:	extensive testing has brought up a lot of issues :)
[11:38]	Chaley May:	the problem is the media prim and alphas are a huge positiive.. they misrepresent the opinion on v2
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	Wow! Users offered positive feedback on Something?
[11:39]	Chaley May:	since its the UI we all hate
[11:39]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It's not really the fact that it's "change" but that, the changes didn't seem to have experienced users in mind either.
[11:39]	Honey Popstar:	Johan its not change as much as in SO much is changed
[11:39]	Johan Laurasia:	athat's true sebastean
[11:39]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I understand it's geared toward new users, but, as I said in a post, I'm a firm believer that a good UI shuold be able to grow with its user.
[11:39]	Simon Linden:	2.0 also really needs an adjustment period ... I stuck with 1.23 until this beta went out because I hated it every time I tried it. After a while tho, I'm getting to like it more and more
[11:39]	Johan Laurasia:	there should be a mode switch for developers/non-developers
[11:39]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	New users, we're all hoping, won't always be new users, and they'll want the UI to do the same thing that experienced users will.
[11:40]	Tiberious Neruda:	Let me offer this as food for thought: I'd be absolutely RAVING positively, if you guys would put the features of 2.0 (alpha masks, HTMLoaP, etc.) into a 1.24 with the old UI
[11:40]	Simon Linden:	While it's hard to do somethings because the UI changed, it has a lot more thought on the design than 1.23 ever did
[11:40]	Rex Cronon:	if all of us become noobs when it comes to the new gui, who is going to help the real noobs that just landed in sl:(
[11:40]	Chaley May:	i'd be so happy if moap and alphas got onto 1.24 too
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	SL2 is in Beta, and will have to fit experienced users before going to Noobs
[11:41]	Chaley May:	hey agua.. going to dance?
[11:41]	Johan Laurasia:	On a more physics based question... what are the chances of cloth ever coming to fuision?
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Well I'll tell you... the viewer team is not doing development on V1.23 anymore. Everything will have to be V2.+, or 3rd party viewer.
[11:41]	Rex Cronon:	now both the newbies and the oldies are equally confused:(
[11:41]	Tiberious Neruda:	Arawn... when 2.0 was in alpha, the same gripes were made
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, A Friend is paranoid about MoaP giving out IPAs
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	so there will still be an opportunity for 3rd party viewers to shine where LL's official viewer does not
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	and that will put pressure on the viewer team to deliver something better
[11:42]	Simon Linden:	Very true Arawn ... the people who are willing to try out a beta are experienced, while the benefits of more UI design work that went into 2.0 are most beneficial to new folks
[11:42]	Tiberious Neruda:	fair enough
[11:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I noticed that despite a brand new viewer, one still has to completely close the client to log back in, and llTextBox still doesn't work.
[11:42]	Agua Stoneshield:	lol
[11:42]	Simon Linden:	This is a first :)
[11:42]	Johan Laurasia:	reaally
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	is ll going to help the newbies with the new gui:)
[11:42]	Tiberious Neruda:	I migrated to Emerald when 1.23 became common, and it seems I'm staying with it
[11:42]	Chaley May:	get a someone get him a tip jar.. hes wo4rking
[11:42]	xstorm Radek:	why is there some one that looks like dead elvis on the table dancing ?
[11:42]	Johan Laurasia:	who was it that said office hours were for experienced users?
[11:42]	Chaley May:	-get a
[11:43]	xstorm Radek:	oh gone
[11:43]	Agua Stoneshield:	Hey!
[11:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, were you able to look into the llMatchGroup and related functions at all?
[11:43]	Johan Laurasia:	On a more physics based question... what are the chances of cloth ever happening?
[11:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	By look into I don't mean do, but just, able to see what it would take to do them?
[11:43]	Honey Popstar:	YES cloth
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, no I haven't looked into llMatchGroup
[11:44]	Chaley May:	i find the new UI unintuitive.. dont think its going to be easy for newbs
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	cloth... cloth must wait for viewer-side physics
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	i guess nobody hear of the emperor's new clothes:)
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	heard of*
[11:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	Cloth? You mean Server Side Flexi?
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	however as you know Falcon really really wants to get veiwer-side physics
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	as do several other LL developers
[11:44]	xstorm Radek:	greetings Agua Stoneshield do you need help ?
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	so I expect it to eventually happen
[11:44]	Johan Laurasia:	I'll bring it up next time I see Falcon
[11:44]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Would that include avatar-collisable attachments?
[11:45]	Honey Popstar:	sigh who do i need to bribe to get cloth flex faster lol
[11:45]	Chaley May:	click on the chaie Agua
[11:45]	Tiberious Neruda:	...though to tell the truth, a bit of my frustration comes with the fact that 2.0 throws my more than 4 years experience out the window
[11:45]	Sebastean Steamweaver	would like a tie that doesn't fall through his chest.
[11:45]	Tillie Ariantho:	Server side flexi? Who needs THAT?
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, collision of attachments... that would be possible if we had physics on the viewer... maybe
[11:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think Ties are part of the T-Shirt Layer
[11:46]	xstorm Radek:	you know wireframe phisics can work if its program in to the system
[11:46]	Tiberious Neruda:	the next really major accomplishment I think I'd want to see is mesh import
[11:46]	Agua Stoneshield:	Get lost!
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought Viewer Side Physics would give the client some anticipation, what the Server would say, rather than doing the server's work.
[11:47]	Tiberious Neruda:	and since that appears to be on the way...
[11:47]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Looks he just discoved gestures. :-)
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	improved flexi-avatar collisions could be done today on the viewer
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	however the flexi code is kinda messy
[11:47]	Johan Laurasia	tapes mouth shut due to NDA
[11:47]	Simon Linden:	Arawn - yes, it would be sometihng like that. We can't offload any crucial work because the viewer can't be trusted
[11:47]	Chaley May:	gestures are the worst thing about SL :)
[11:47]	Tiberious Neruda:	well, that and maybe flexible sculpted prims
[11:48]	Tiberious Neruda:	...would love a tail that doesn't have alpha issues
[11:48]	Simon Linden:	I think we're close to breaking the table
[11:48]	Techwolf Lupindo:	..and a tail attment point.
[11:48]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	More attachment points.
[11:48]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Come on everyone still standing, sit in the chair, let test this table. lol
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	we don't have a tail attachment point?
[11:48]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Andrew, nope/
[11:49]	Tiberious Neruda:	tails are usually given the Pelvis point
[11:49]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Nor a neck attachment.
[11:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	We have Pelvic, which Prehensile has to share with Pudendal
[11:49]	Tillie Ariantho:	Its not easy to wear a prim skirt, a belt and a tail, though.
[11:49]	Jonathan Yap:	Sit is now Get It?
[11:49]	Tiberious Neruda:	bingo. And for the female furs, prim dresses blow the tail clean off
[11:49]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	We need more people.
[11:50]	Simon Linden:	I hope that's "Get In" rather than "Get it"
[11:50]	Jonathan Yap:	Yes, typo
[11:50]	Liisa Runo:	(pelvis = primskirt/belt, belly = tail)
[11:50]	Imaze Rhiano:	alpha and tattoo layers are nice... thought there should be more of them - it is going to be hard choice to choose between jacket and boots alpha layer
[11:50]	Tillie Ariantho:	I had hoped that some kind ot texture stacking came, for clothes... not just 1 more layer.
[11:50]	Chaley May:	they should allow multiple attachments to a single point and apply prim limits to attachments
[11:51]	Tillie Ariantho:	but probably too complicated for the general noob
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	these are all great ideas and need to go to the viewer team
[11:51]	Squirrel Wood:	See, this is where my 20+ people single prim seat ring would come in handy. :) It even has some games built in and stuff ^^
[11:51]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Having a toe attachment and a toe joint would be great as well.
[11:51]	Tiberious Neruda:	another good one might be finger (generally ring)
[11:51]	Liisa Runo:	i like the idea Chaley had
[11:51]	Honey Popstar:	I make my skirts to go on the pelvis but if one of out tail friends contacts me I give them one that has a diffrent attachment point ... so you can work around it but granted its a pain
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	they have office hours, I think, but they are all working on V2 and future rendering technology
[11:52]	Squirrel Wood:	future rendering technology.... Unigine :p
[11:52]	Squirrel Wood:	should look into it :)
[11:52]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Maybe that includes newer and better particles!
[11:52]	Tillie Ariantho:	Honey: thats all just workaround, not fixes. ^^
[11:52]	Tiberious Neruda:	oh... someone mentioned physics...
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... I thought I heard an LL dev talking about multiple objects per attachment point... that was months ago though
[11:52]	Squirrel Wood:	user generated content is always going to look not decent :p
[11:52]	Tiberious Neruda:	I ran into an interesting gotcha...
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	dunno whether that is being worked on
[11:53]	Honey Popstar:	um you can have more attachment points with emrald i belive hee hee
[11:53]	Simon Linden:	Me too ... there's been some discussion on multiple attachments at the same point
[11:53]	Tillie Ariantho:	Honey: which then looks YUCK for non-emerald users.
[11:53]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Yes, avatar_lad.xml can be replaced and more attament points apear.
[11:53]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, out of curiosity, how difficult would it be to add more options to the particle system code server-side?
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	If we're approaching H7, there should be some attentino on the actual understandingof Rotations, before fixing SVC-93. It's an area, where correct rotations would be valuable
[11:54]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, the particle code is mostly viewer-side
[11:54]	Honey Popstar:	well then there is the choice do you care what you look like to yourself or others?
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	LSL provides hooks for setting values, but they have to be supported by the viewer
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	first
[11:54]	xstorm Radek:	it be nice to see a more custom setups of avatars and the viewer 2 system
[11:54]	Tiberious Neruda:	I made an object, and script that rezzes 2 spheres with neutral buoyancy, equidistant from a flat prim, and at the same velocity towards each other. Despite all the values being the same, the sphere from above didn't rebound as the one from below did
[11:54]	Chaley May:	what i want most is to be able to detect in local or regional coordinates where an attachment point is... so we can know where a hand is in animations to be able to use script to put people in place properly
[11:54]	Tiberious Neruda:	why is this?
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	if the features existed on the viewer then providing hooks on the server would be pretty easy
[11:55]	office hours	is almost over
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	(that is, for viewer-only features like particles)
[11:55]	xstorm Radek:	think of how many will love to do and make custom layouts of the viewer 2
[11:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	Physics side, I don't think the hand moves, in an annimatio
[11:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Chaley - animations are only viewr side.
[11:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yes, what Arawn said. On the server, the hand never moves.
[11:55]	Chaley May:	oi see :(
[11:55]	Tiberious Neruda:	logic would dictate that they'd act the same, since all other values are
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	actually on the server there is no hand...
[11:56]	Tiberious Neruda:	...but yet, the result is different. Why?
[11:56]	Chaley May:	then it would be nice if the viewer could tell our scripts lol
[11:56]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	There's a problem, that we can't coordinate animations
[11:57]	Chaley May:	llDetectedTouchPos is viewer side so must be possible
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	We can't have music in time with Dance
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Tiberious, I'm having trouble picturing your "two buoyant spheres" setup. Perhaps you could describe it in more detail?
[11:57]	Simon Linden:	Tiberious ... good questions, and I don't really have an answer. If you want to give me a demo object, I can pass it along. It may just be that the first object somehow affects the performance or timing enough to change the 2nd behavior
[11:57]	Tiberious Neruda:	I might be able to DEMO it later
[11:57]	xstorm Radek:	hhmmm viewer telling server to put a hand in the air for others to see lol
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Physical Attachments might be an idea for Premium Value
[11:58]	xstorm Radek:	or to have people cry about more bugs lo9l
[11:58]	Liisa Runo:	would be cool to have some kind of llBodyPartTarget(RIGHT_HAND, linknum, offset, rot); that could "animate" body part to stick on to some object, like steering wheel of a car for example
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	You can wear a steering wheel
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	Liisa - yes, or coordinating / syncing animations better
[11:59]	xstorm Radek:	hhhmmm target sounds cool
[12:00]	Thank you	for coming to Linden office hours
[12:00]	Liisa Runo:	sure, can wear steering wheel, but there are other uses whenre yo cant cheat, and sometimes making anim that works with all size and shape AV's is just impossible
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	You've probably all seen the syncronized dancing phenonmenon ... what's interesting about that is it's a total accident of timing on the viewer
[12:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It would be nice to have animations that could adjust to your bodyshape.
[12:00]	Tiberious Neruda:	yes!!
[12:00]	Tillie Ariantho:	Hm, sitting here just with all of you my SL memory bloats to 1,01 GB, I only need to do a single snapshot now to crash.
[12:00]	xstorm Radek:	but there is still a bug with names over 24 char. in the script that has not been fix
[12:00]	Tillie Ariantho:	Anyone going to fix that, ever?
[12:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Like for chairs. "Butt goes here. Feets go here. Head goes here."
[12:01]	xstorm Radek:	why do we still have a 24 char limit still ?
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	what is is the problem with names over 24 letters long?
[12:01]	Tillie Ariantho:	SL clients needs some kind of garbage collection to clean away least used textures and stuff. :-(
[12:01]	Jonathan Yap:	How about the ability to edit the priority of an animation? Sometimes they clash with other ones and it would be nice to be able to make some adjustments.
[12:01]	Chaley May:	synchronized dancing just uses timers
[12:01]	Tiberious Neruda:	animations that put avs into the ground or leave them hovering looks like junk
[12:01]	Imaze Rhiano:	it would also nice if there would way to lock some bones in rig by scripts
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	I haven't touched this table and chair system ... not even sure I have permissions
[12:01]	xstorm Radek:	yes some menus can not go over 24 letters in a name
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Alas, office hours are over and I've got another meeting that starts now.
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	Tillie - what viewer version? If it's not 2, it's probably not going to get fixed
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Menus don't go over 24 char
[12:02]	Tillie Ariantho:	Simon: Snowglobe release version.
[12:02]	Imaze Rhiano:	bye and thanks andrew
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	If you want to stick with 1.23 style, snowglobe is probably better since it's had more work this past year
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	right
[12:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Thank you for the time andrew
[12:02]	Squirrel Wood:	http://unigine.com ^^
[12:02]	Chaley May:	bye Andrew
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew, simon
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	FWIW in 2.0 I've been sitting around 545MB and not growing
[12:03]	Alexia Leborski:	bye Andrew
[12:03]	Tillie Ariantho:	So I need to reproduce all my 1.23 and snowglobe bugs again in 2.0 to get them fixed? :-(
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	I have to go too ... thanks everyone for coming today
[12:03]	Fisher Linden:	bye
[12:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take care Simon, Fisher
[12:03]	Imaze Rhiano:	bye simone and thanks
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	Well, if you see 2.0 bugs, please file them ... that's what we want from the beta :)
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[12:04]	Chaley May:	bye simon
[12:04]	Johan Laurasia:	Thanks Andrew, let me know what you thnk of the T shirt
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	See you next time :)

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