User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 03 05

Transcript

[16:00]	Cerdita Piek:	Hello Simon :)
[16:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Simon
[16:01]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[16:01]	RedMokum Bravin:	and hello from the fence :-)
[16:01]	Simon Linden:	Andrew should be here in a minute
[16:01]	Alexia Leborski:	Hi Simon
[16:01]	Arawn Spitteler	extends grreetings to the fence, and all stolen property traded thereby
[16:02]	Ashiri Sands:	=^_^=
[16:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hey folks
[16:02]	RedMokum Bravin:	:-p
[16:02]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hmm..feature request, llteleporthelpisland(key avatar)
[16:02]	Alexia Leborski:	je;;p Sebastean
[16:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is it Jiraed?
[16:02]	Cerdita Piek:	Hello Andrew :)
[16:03]	Simon Linden:	That could get some interesting abuse :)
[16:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Actually, llTeleportAgent wouldn't work for that.
[16:03]	RedMokum Bravin:	Easter Andrew
[16:03]	Andrew Linden:	hi everyone
[16:03]	Andrew Linden	wais for things to show up
[16:03]	Alexia Leborski:	hello Sebastean...previous IM wasn't meant to be jibberish...LOL
[16:03]	Alexia Leborski:	Hello Andrew
[16:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Andrew, I was just going to suggest to Jaylen and Alexia, to look up SVC-93
[16:03]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[16:03]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[16:03]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[16:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hehe
[16:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	And how many others havce the hud?
[16:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Do computers freeze more often, when they get too warm?
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	server-1.38 branched today
[16:05]	Liisa Runo:	yay ❤
[16:05]	Simon Linden:	Heat is bad for CPUs
[16:05]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I still think LL needs to hire a Fashion Colsultent for the Lindens avatars. :-)
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	I think it is already up on the test grid, but they are going to be testing it for another couple weeks
[16:06]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... that reminds me someone gave me a new shirt that I was supposed to try on
[16:06]	Liisa Runo:	i went to test the new stuff to beta grid briefly, SL will be lot more better place after we get 1.38 here ❤
[16:06]	Alexia Leborski:	maybe Lindens just have a thing against doing laundry...LOL
[16:06]	RedMokum Bravin:	It was an eye opener to see all the memory hogs I ever acquired :-)
[16:07]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I could not due much testing due to viwer 2.0 locking up on certion regines and crashes when fetching parcel script usage info.
[16:08]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, imagine running off on a branch with the server for a year and making a bunch of changes then dumping it on the grid.
[16:08]	Xugu Madison:	RedMokum; yeah, I was thinking it would turn out that actual memory usage by scripts isn't even close to what people expected
[16:09]	Techwolf Lupindo:	When 1.38 goes live ont eh main grid, I hope to see a lot of folks dumping the mystic tool.
[16:09]	Andrew Linden:	What Ardy? Could you elaborate on that hypothetical situation some more?
[16:09]	Alexia Leborski:	ew http://www ., Andy...that sounds scary
[16:09]	Ardy Lay:	Oh, just thinking about people's reaction to Viewer 2.0. Nevermind.
[16:09]	Kaluura Boa:	hehehe
[16:09]	Xugu Madison:	Techwolf; I think the personal danceballs might be in trouble, too... haven't checked yet, but they frequently contain 15-20 scripts...
[16:09]	Alexia Leborski:	sorry...meant Ardy...not Andy...what's with my fingers tonight?
[16:10]	Andrew Linden:	Oh. Yeah, personally I disagreed with how the Viewer2.0 stuff was done -- it should have been more incremental
[16:10]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Xugu, that isn't the problem, it when they hog up resorces or sim time. I like to see avatar script time, not just memory.
[16:10]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Xugu- that's usually due to the fact they're made to animate more than just one person. You need a script for each person that gets animated.
[16:10]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, interesting. I thought conventional wisdom said do a single big change, don't try breaking it down...
[16:10]	Andrew Linden:	we had the discussion in LL about it, and it was decided to do lots of work and try to make a big splash
[16:10]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, yeah, small steps were needed but somebody had lofty goals.
[16:10]	Alexia Leborski:	It would have been easier to test if you did it that way
[16:10]	Ashiri Sands:	big splash indeed!
[16:11]	Kaluura Boa:	Big flop...
[16:11]	Andrew Linden:	so things are kinda splashy these days now that it is revealed in public beta
[16:11]	Xugu Madison	nods to Seb "Yup. Kelly's aware of this at least, but said it was going to be difficult to fix"
[16:11]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, most things that splash big then sink.
[16:11]	RedMokum Bravin:	Indeed a big splash, spending 2 days just trying to find back old functionality.
[16:11]	Ashiri Sands:	lots of whining at first
[16:11]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Alexia, I agree.
[16:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I don't think it'll be terribly difficult, once small scripts are implemented.
[16:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	All an animation script really needs is code to accept permissions, and then play an animation.
[16:12]	Andrew Linden:	Needless to say, I'm not in favor of doing such long-delay simulator work
[16:12]	Xugu Madison:	Small scripts will help, but really the issue is beating the privilege system into something more sensible
[16:12]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Ok. I just notice, this sime is stuck at .88 TD
[16:12]	Andrew Linden:	however... one thing I AM in favor of is to try releasing a simulator that is perhaps incompatible with the old one...
[16:12]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, I didn't think you would like the long-isolated branch idea.
[16:13]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, what do you have in mind with that simulator?
[16:14]	Andrew Linden:	What I think might be a useful way to actually make some progress on the simulator side would be to make a "new" simulator that has totally different protocols in a few places
[16:14]	Andrew Linden:	so that it is incompatible with old ones, and would be used to see a new continent
[16:14]	Liisa Runo:	yes, this sim has something physical that take a bit too much from the sim
[16:14]	Kaluura Boa:	A lot!
[16:15]	Andrew Linden:	the plan would be to put the old simulator (and some of its content) out of business in a few years
[16:15]	Andrew Linden:	we aren't working on that project... just saying I would be in favor
[16:15]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, finally clear some of the old accumulated nonsense out?
[16:15]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah. Put another way...
[16:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	With the extant experience, Blank Paging it might be the way to go
[16:16]	Xugu Madison	would love to see LL offer an OpenSim continent, for reference
[16:16]	Andrew Linden:	We know what it would take to put SL out of business. We should write the server backend that does that, as as spinoff project, and then put ourselves out of business by creating a new world (that we happen to own).
[16:16]	Rex Cronon:	greetings everybody
[16:16]	Alexia Leborski:	Andrew, would that new simulator assist in supporting the higher performance needs of SIMs that might require the support 100+ avatars attending an event?
[16:16]	Andrew Linden:	Needless to say, we're not going to be doing that anytime soon, that I know of.
[16:17]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe
[16:17]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Alexia, stuff like that.
[16:17]	Simon Linden:	hmm, wonder why physics time is so high on this sim
[16:17]	RedMokum Bravin:	Hmmm.... Blue Mars comes to my mind.
[16:17]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	That brings up the inevitable situation: If you know what it takes to put you out of business, someone else does. Which brings up the question, if you aren't going to do it anytime soon, who is?
[16:17]	Xugu Madison:	RedMokum, what, as a way of putting a virtual world out of business? :)
[16:18]	RedMokum Bravin:	Xugu: as a bad way to start from scrap :-p
[16:18]	Xugu Madison	tried BM. Slow, fiddly, inflexible, and mostly not what I was looking for
[16:18]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, I thing being the replacement to Second Life would be a decent goal. You could learn a lot that way and support your residents when they make the jump.
[16:18]	Techwolf Lupindo	sniffs out the prims....
[16:18]	Rex Cronon:	somebody messed my arm using a hacked viewer:(
[16:18]	Xugu Madison:	I think people will find a market for BM as a fast MMO writing tool, maybe. Not as a virtual world/space in SL terms, though
[16:19]	Alexia Leborski:	I have been speaking to a few owners of clubs and venues on SL...they said it would be great if they would have an amphitheater type setting for large events of 100+ avators
[16:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I agree with Ardy. I don't want to see SL totally go out of business. I'd like to see it continue. But if you don't do it soon, someone else will. They may have already started.
[16:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is Pooley Stage available for rent?
[16:20]	RedMokum Bravin:	However the islands that are supposed to be able to handle up to 100 avatars right now start to decompose at 70+ people.
[16:20]	Rex Cronon:	alexia, only for text chat, or voice too?
[16:20]	Alexia Leborski:	the new Continent would enable you to design and architect the new SIM based on lessons leanred in the past that can't be supported on your old version
[16:20]	Xugu Madison:	Doesn't number of avatars on a region basically hit the issue that network traffic increases as the square of number of avatars?
[16:20]	RedMokum Bravin:	Especially the number of avatars teleporting in at once.
[16:21]	Alexia Leborski:	most of those events are music events...so only the MC , DJ, and performer might require voice
[16:21]	Simon Linden:	Xugu - yes, that's an issue as you add more people
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	BM's irrelevant, because it's closed. I don't think you quite realize what's going to happen when Opensim comes out of test, into alpha, and beta, and then producton-ready. It's game changing, and you can't extrapolate from today.
[16:21]	Alexia Leborski:	it would be too difficult to manage the voices of 100 avatars...disruptive
[16:21]	Andrew Linden:	I think the main things I would do differently would be: object hierarchy, variable sized regions, and more reliable messaging system/data transfer.
[16:21]	Techwolf Lupindo:	One stuck bi-plane and one phycial helecopter.
[16:22]	Techwolf Lupindo:	ON this regine
[16:22]	Simon Linden:	Don't forget the permissions system :)
[16:22]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I think all three of those ideas sound wonderful, heh.
[16:22]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right, different permissions system.
[16:22]	Andrew Linden:	I was listening to Doug Linden describe his vision for an improved permission system last night.
[16:22]	Xugu Madison	nods "Reliable asset transfers would be nice, too. A scripting system that's integrated into the code, not bolted on the side, also good..."
[16:22]	Andrew Linden:	If I were to start a second generation SL I'd want Doug Linden on my team.
[16:23]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, what would it take to get a true SL 2.0 going?
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	I think Andrew's list is exactly right, other than extra attention to caching and interest list control via caps.
[16:23]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Obviously I'm not making a reference to the viewer :P
[16:23]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, where do we sign up for islands on this new continent? :)
[16:23]	Charlette Proto:	maybe Doug should have been involved in viewer 2 (wow what rubbish that turned out)
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, speculating on real ways to do it?... hrm.
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	One way would be for LL to invest in a team whose goal is to put SL out of business while using the same viewer. This is the notion I was describing.
[16:24]	Alexia Leborski:	do you perform automated load testing when large amounts of avatars tp to a location simultaneously or within a 2 to 5 minute period of time and then run simlutaneous testing on CPU and server utilizatin testing...or do you only do manual testing?
[16:25]	Alexia Leborski:	just curious
[16:25]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Intrest list. I want the client to tell the sim I want ALL objects, no matter how small, I'me(client) doing the rendering, not you(sim)
[16:25]	Andrew Linden:	It would require a lot of vision higher up in LL, and a fairly large investment.
[16:25]	Alexia Leborski:	That was an issue we had during events of 300+ at my last company
[16:25]	Andrew Linden:	The other way would be to do incremental changes to the servers, which we are doing now.
[16:26]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, I think LL will eventually get to SL2.0 the way it is currently going... it will just take longer than the other way.
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: the perms system won't be like today, because of interop. You need to think about multi-world access and control at the asset services, not perms in a managed domain like SL, because the whole metaverse isn't a managed domain.
[16:26]	Andrew Linden:	And whether we can be put out of business by a competitor remains to be seen.
[16:26]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	The thing I'd be worried about is, would it be soon enough?
[16:26]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, would creating a whole new incompatible continent actually be significantly faster than upgrading the existing one?
[16:27]	Andrew Linden:	Xugu, we are constrained by not being able to break content.
[16:27]	Andrew Linden:	The new continent would intentionally break all the content that is holding us back.
[16:27]	Alexia Leborski:	you will need a business plan to show the increased revenue from things like SL membership retention...probably needs a package of features that will accomplish overall revenue projections to get it to get commitment from your maangement team
[16:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Perms can't be strictly technical, since anybody can copy anything but scripts. Open Sim means Simulator Owners will be outside Linden Labs
[16:27]	Andrew Linden:	However, in my scenario the new team would have all the access to the work being done by the rest of LL.
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: you have to break content every now and them. It's the price of progress. If you don't, others will leave you behind.
[16:28]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	So replacement content could be created, and those who had to leave the old content behind when the old continents were retired, could move on to the new content.
[16:28]	Alexia Leborski:	my philosophy is to never underestmate your competitor
[16:28]	Andrew Linden:	So it would be welcome to scavenge any working parts of the system that it wanted.
[16:28]	Simon Linden:	I don't think anyone at LL is looking at competition and thinking we can take it easy
[16:28]	Andrew Linden:	But could chose the parts they wanted to salvage, and rewrite the parts they wanted.
[16:28]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, some content need to be broken but the decision needs to be up to the user so I like the anti-legacy "new continent" idea.
[16:28]	Xugu Madison	would definitely be interested in a new LL grid
[16:28]	Alexia Leborski:	just because they do not currently have virtual environments does not mean that they have lots of other functionality that already sells and they add virtual communities to that...there are already a lot of companies who are taking that path now
[16:29]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, what kind of resident voice would be needed to get the vision to the higherups to make that kind of investment?
[16:29]	Alexia Leborski:	the only thing that is blocking them from pursuing it more is that they have yet to find the way to monetize it
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Don't break content if you have alternatives --- for example that's why we're often encouraging Nyx to make an Avatar 2.0 that runs in parallel with the current one, so that no Avatar 1.0 items are broken.
[16:30]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, I don't think that could be driven by a user group. The only way to do it from that direction would be a mass migration to a competitor, perhaps. Not sure.
[16:30]	Liisa Runo:	is it that bad?
[16:30]	Xugu Madison:	We're talking moving to OpenSim only, at work, if that counts? :)
[16:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	SL is based on the Internet, and Monetizing that is a challenge
[16:31]	Charlette Proto:	in what sense is OpenSim better?
[16:31]	Simon Linden:	I'm going to do some cleanup ... looks like one of the parcels on this region doesn't get much use and has a few obnoxious objects on it
[16:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: open code, change what you want server-side.
[16:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, did Simon see Gret go by?
[16:32]	Xugu Madison:	Charlette; a few things. We control the content, we can host it locally (less firewall issues, much faster), maintenance and backups are done to our schedule...
[16:32]	Xugu Madison:	Charlette, oh, and we can make as many regions as we think the server can handle
[16:32]	Ardy Lay:	Simon, Bravo!
[16:33]	Simon Linden:	ah, that feels better :)
[16:33]	Charlette Proto:	faster? not if you put an asset server like LL have and all the trafic to it
[16:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, Regions that would rez, when someone takes an interest?
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: no restrictions on import or export, no upload costs --- highly relevant if you want to create dozens of thousands of items automatically.
[16:34]	Xugu Madison:	Charlette, however... we don't have anything like the amount of assets, so yes substantially faster...
[16:34]	Xugu Madison	should get numbers on that, actuallly...
[16:34]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	What are some of the downsides to OpenSim?
[16:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Because of the new TPV document, Edu users may have to flee SL entirely --- the TPV disallows them from explorting totally legal GPL or Creative Commons content.
[16:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	exporting*
[16:35]	Xugu Madison:	Seb: mixed support for scripting, poor support for access controls, stability, physics model, lack of user management tools...
[16:35]	Xugu Madison:	Morgaine, TPV?
[16:35]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Third Party Viewr
[16:35]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Viewer*
[16:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	As Seb says
[16:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	New policy document
[16:35]	Xugu Madison:	Ah, right, yes...
[16:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is that the policy that says we may have to either register our viewers, or script them to mimic the registered viewers?
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	The TPV doc may not even be legal --- I don't see how LL's ToS can override GPL or Creative Commons license.
[16:37]	Alexia Leborski:	edu users are also worried about their education content and the security of it unless it has access priveleges restricted to only those who have paid tuition or training fees
[16:37]	Dimitrio Lewis:	Second Life's success isn't just down to the social sphere. Other virtual worlds have had that and still managed to fail. It's the economy that makes a real difference. That a person with no skills can come here, create something cool, and make enough money to put themselves through college. The internet is full of success stories like that, and so is Second Life. That's why it's on top. People can realize their dreams here.
[16:38]	Skills Hak:	no, mimicing another viewer, registered or not is violating the policy
[16:38]	Xugu Madison:	Alexia, another upside to OpenSim. We hand out accounts to people ourselves, rather than LL handling that step
[16:38]	Charlette Proto:	OSGrid for sure never impressed me, but I'll try not to provoke discussion since Viewer 2 is very unstable at my end
[16:38]	Arawn Spitteler	recalls a TV show about a Snack Truck: If the Tuition isn't paid, the school can't vouch for the scholar
[16:39]	Xugu Madison:	We run a local grid, no inter-connection at this point. Might Hypergrid later, but I don't have time and no-one else involved with virtual worlds here is technical enough
[16:39]	Liisa Runo:	exactly what Dimitrio said, ability for everyone to easily create content is THE thing that makes SL the best and biggest
[16:39]	Alexia Leborski:	yes...it is true that some who had the technical talent and drive could achieve their goals but you are limiting the total potential revenue of SL if you limit your goals to that business model...that's my two cents
[16:39]	Ashiri Sands:	Content creation is why I'm still here
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Liisa: but all VWs will offer that.
[16:40]	Liisa Runo:	not seen any that come even close to SL
[16:40]	Xugu Madison:	Morgaine, I'd point out Blue Mars and Playstation Home as counter-examples. Neither are doing terribly well, sure, but...
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Opensim not only comes close, but surpassed SL for content creations. Most of the limits are turned off, for example.
[16:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Are they doing as well as Sims On Line? That must have been a strong contender.
[16:41]	Xugu Madison:	Morgaine; not to mention being able to trivially duplicate inventory/regions if we want. Need one region per student for something? Can do easily
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	You can build with megaprims freely in Opensim. 800m tall trees? Sure.
[16:41]	Xugu Madison:	(University of St Andrews, Scotland, for anyone not sure where I'm based)
[16:41]	Liisa Runo:	anyway, i have invested loads of money and time to SL, and wish it to stay the best for many years to come, but if the higherups fail to see the potential in SL, i think some LL employees should just take over, and create third life or something, and we could all move there overnight
[16:42]	Skills Hak:	i have an 800 meter tall tree
[16:42]	Skills Hak:	want it?
[16:42]	Skills Hak:	but careful where you rez it ;)
[16:42]	Arawn Spitteler	thinks all trees should be five hundered feet tall, all pink, and bad smelling
[16:42]	Andrew Linden:	Knowing what I know... I wouldn't want to try to take on LL with a VW written from scratch
[16:43]	Kaluura Boa:	Hmm... Patents all over the place?
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	so I don't think a group of LL employees could spin off their own competitor and beat LL in the VW game... unless they had LL's help.
[16:43]	Simon Linden:	Not without enough VC to fund about 40 people for a couple of years
[16:43]	Xugu Madison:	I believe it's more just an incredibly large (and frequently underestimated) task
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	No Kaluura, not patents, but just the complexity of building the system from scrach.
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	scratch
[16:44]	Alexia Leborski:	there wre predictions made two years ago by a higher up in Microsft and others that the Social Media and Networking bubble would bust about now. Most strategists feel that has happened as no company that I know of actually made significant revenue off of the investments that they made in Social Media.
[16:44]	Kaluura Boa:	Yeah... And seeing how big SL is...
[16:44]	Xugu Madison:	OpenSim's been at this for, what, 2-3 years? Has maybe 60-70% of the functionality at this point... I mean, it's got everything core, but a lot of the details are missing still
[16:44]	Andrew Linden:	sure it could be done faster than it took LL to do it... lots of lessons learned, however in the two or three years it would take to just launch something LL could see them coming and get a lot done
[16:45]	Alexia Leborski:	You won't get VC money unless you can respin the business plan...into something new that will bring and retain significant numbers of new users that see a new value proposition.
[16:45]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[16:45]	Kaluura Boa:	Less restrictions... Better graphics...
[16:45]	Alexia Leborski:	VC money means being about to turn a profit of $100+ in three years...they will want to be able to pull their money out and get payback within 3 years
[16:45]	Ardy Lay:	What keeps LL from pretending they see them coming and getting a lot done anyway?
[16:46]	Charlette Proto:	legacy Ardy
[16:46]	Alexia Leborski:	VC money is chancey as you may be leaving the destiny of the company in the hands of people who don't understand your business
[16:46]	Xugu Madison:	Kaluura; better graphics sounds good, but the reality is that remarkably few people actually have the hardware for decent graphics...
[16:46]	Charlette Proto:	the economy is intwined with the legacy Second Life™ system
[16:46]	Kaluura Boa:	Yeah... I know...
[16:46]	Charlette Proto:	and LL would not give up the economy of Second Life™
[16:46]	Alexia Leborski:	They will pull the plug and take all of their money out before 3 years if they think the business is not headed in the direction that they understand.
[16:47]	Andrew Linden:	Way back when we were talking about open sourcing or SL simulator code...
[16:47]	Andrew Linden:	years ago...
[16:48]	Andrew Linden:	I was thinking... eventually an open source simulator will get started
[16:48]	Andrew Linden:	(and OpenSim is currently filling this niche)
[16:48]	Alexia Leborski:	...sorrry...meant $100M plus is the magic VC number
[16:49]	Andrew Linden:	but if this open simulator were to approach LL's simulator, then perhaps LL could just switch over to the new simulator and still host its world
[16:49]	Andrew Linden:	while competing with all the other VW worlds out there
[16:49]	Andrew Linden:	however, that was a somewhat idealized fantasy... at least, it seemed like it would be easier for LL to do when I was thinking about it years ago
[16:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Not sure why everyone's so focused on commercial competitors to SL. That's not where millions of regions are going to come from. They're going to come from community sites, just like websites exploded on the web. No VC-funded commercial venture can compete with that.
[16:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	Wasn't that the plan? Assets and CAsh Flow wuld be LL Biz, and all else could be on localized servers.
[16:49]	Andrew Linden:	it seems like a hard thing for LL to do today
[16:50]	Andrew Linden:	I think Morgaine is right. But then, I'm a big fan of open source software and am already opn that side fo the fence
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	:-)
[16:50]	Alexia Leborski:	you can't bring in large numbers of users and retain them unless you add more simple usability things
[16:51]	Xugu Madison:	Morgaine, yeah... I can see it ending up that costs come down until everyone can afford virtual world hosting in the same way web hosting is now a fairly trivial cost....
[16:51]	Dimitrio Lewis:	People have to want to be here. If they don't want to be here, no amount of usability is going to help.
[16:51]	Alexia Leborski:	The consumer market users just get frustrated spending so much time getting started and learning SL that many quit after 2 days...they don't see the point
[16:52]	Andrew Linden:	Usability works the other way... when it is working good it provides fewer reasons for people to get fed up and leave.
[16:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	They don't understand what the game is
[16:52]	Rex Cronon:	if people could use sl as platform to build games. like half life or wow...
[16:52]	Xugu Madison:	graphics card having a nervous breakdown, back momentarily....
[16:53]	Alexia Leborski:	you need to bridge the gap between RL and SL and bring the SL world to them in a easy, non-threatening way...Arawn and I have a few ideas
[16:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	I haven't played those, but what's the challenge?
[16:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep. All it needs is (i) Opensim to work 100%, (ii) one-click install with large selection of beautiful worlds, and (iii) community buzz that starts a Facebook-like explosion of takeup.
[16:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	(iii) is hardest
[16:53]	Alexia Leborski:	but I may have to find my own team to do it as I don't know if there is a place for me at LL, yet
[16:53]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Usability is something that attracts them. LL can't focus on businesses as a funding source, because businesses are too smart to set up things just so they can have an avatar to look at. They're business people, and that doesn't really facilitate them as well as simple video conferencing. Game format doesn't add much to their capacity. Individual users on the other hand, are willing to spend money on something they can enjoy. It's entertainment for them. the more the residents enjoy it...
[16:53]	Charlette Proto:	Xugu are you using Ver2, I'm having a shocker experience with V2
[16:53]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, what is the license of OpenSim again? BSD-style or GNU?
[16:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	BSD
[16:54]	Xugu Madison:	Charlette, yes, but I suspect running Linux is probably not helping either...
[16:54]	Rex Cronon:	half life is a fps(first person shooter), wow is wow:)
[16:54]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	..the more you'll have the "wow" factor of 'hey! Come see what I have to show you! Sign up!" from people telling others, just like an MMO grows.
[16:54]	Simon Linden:	You forgot the ii.5 - compelling content and experiences that are worth telling your friends about
[16:54]	Alexia Leborski:	you have to just fine a few good applications and then focus on those use case scenarios...and then do them right
[16:54]	Andrew Linden:	So that means that eventually there will be a GNU -simulator.
[16:54]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	MMO's biggest recruiting method is getting players to invite other people to join. SL needs to do the same.
[16:54]	Charlette Proto:	true, but in my view high ping times (my is 200ms) choke the main loop of the Second Life™ app
[16:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	So I think the focus needs to be on making SL something that individual users can enjoy to its fullest, instead of looking to corporations.
[16:55]	Skills Hak:	EU DC pretty please :>
[16:55]	Alexia Leborski:	pick your target consumer...give them what they want without adding much more than just adding a few enhancements...would not take extensive work to do it...to add an adequate value proposition
[16:55]	Skills Hak:	i think banner ads on websites are rly efficient too
[16:55]	Rex Cronon:	i think wow makes quite a lot of monies from individual users:)
[16:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Exactly, Rex
[16:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Well, Blizzard, but yes
[16:56]	Charlette Proto:	but WOW is a game people play and Second Life™ is more of a canvas
[16:56]	Alexia Leborski:	in takes a lot of "one of" individuals to increase revenue
[16:56]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I was brought to SL through a friend. Most of the people I know were brought the same way. Many people I've seen join, drop away because there isn't something interesting to hold them there, SL is too limited.
[16:56]	Charlette Proto:	Second Life™ is the oposite of WOW when it comes to user motivation
[16:57]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Charlette - that's the idea. people can create their own "game" here. And if that is appetizing enough and beautiful/interesting enough to explore, people will stay.
[16:57]	Rex Cronon:	the games can be the honey to bring people in. and those that have a talent can use it as a canvas:)
[16:57]	Alexia Leborski:	you have to think of consumer areas to attack which will drive groups of individual users
[16:57]	Dimitrio Lewis:	I was introduced by a real world friend. I get the impression today that if you mentioned SL to a friend you'd be judged as some kind of deviant.
[16:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: trouble is, the content isn't very compelling currently because game graphics have advanced so massively in last few years. And SL has very few compelling events, sad to say, and extremely limited ways of finding what there is.
[16:57]	Ashiri Sands:	due to unbalanced media stories :(
[16:57]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	If people are constantly running into proverbial walls with content however, limitations and annoyances, people aren't going to be inclined to stay. Waht Morgaine just said.
[16:57]	Charlette Proto:	the media hype on Second Life™ is shocking
[16:57]	Alexia Leborski:	the second life model is great...I agree...its a great canvas and it was good for taking the company to the first level of growth
[16:58]	Alexia Leborski:	The company is maturing now...and you need to keep that model and expand on it.
[16:58]	Simon Linden:	I agree about the lack of compelling content, but I don' t think it's due to graphics. I think it's slow scripting, poor building tools, and too expensive land
[16:58]	Alexia Leborski:	...without adding lots of development expense
[16:58]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Simon, that's what I've been saying for months now, hehe.
[16:58]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	There are some sims I've seen that are absolutely breathtaking.
[16:58]	Charlette Proto:	expand? Alexia I feel it should be optimised to work well first
[16:58]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Even without windlight.
[16:58]	Xugu Madison:	Simon; would agree on scripting and land. Building... sort of, but they're also very easy to pick up initially, so mix there
[16:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Meshes are coming, I'm sure they'll help to make SL visuals more compelling, just like sculpties did. Dunno what you can do about compelling events though.
[16:59]	Simon Linden:	Well, let's get mesh import going ... the 3D modeling here is tough
[16:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Scripting makes things beep, move, talk, roll, change color, etc.
[16:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Motion interests people.
[16:59]	Skills Hak:	there is SO much amazing content
[16:59]	Rex Cronon:	is very likley that meshes will introduce additional lag:(
[16:59]	Simon Linden:	I'm amazed at what people can create in SL given the tools ... it's impressive
[16:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	A picture on a wall is pretty, but after a while it gets boring to look at. People like to -do- things.
[16:59]	Skills Hak:	people just don't know how to find it
[17:00]	Charlette Proto:	mesh shmesh, what about reliability of the system we have
[17:00]	Alexia Leborski:	you need to have more of a value proposition than just build it and people will come because it is cool technology. A lot of companies eventually faded using that model...sorry, but I am just being honest
[17:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	People like to see things work.
[17:00]	Xugu Madison:	Charlette, with a little luck once we move to C# scripting we'll start getting real error handling, which should help...
[17:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	OMG, terrain. You have to dump the existing terrain. It's early 90's. That's an utter carbunkle on "compelling visuals". Unlike water, which is beautiful.
[17:00]	Simon Linden:	AVs could use a make-over, and a new level of animation control, etc would be great
[17:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Keyframed movement, like andrew and falcon have mentioned, would be a step in the right direction.
[17:00]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Oh darn...emerald change the client string from "Second Life Vista" to "Viewer "2.0"".
[17:00]	Charlette Proto:	agree LSL stinks
[17:00]	Andrew Linden:	it is a very interesting conversation. Unfortunately I've got to be somewhere in an hour, so I've got to go now.
[17:01]	Ardy Lay:	People come to SL to be entertained. Can't tell you how many times a resident's last words in SL are "I am bored."
[17:01]	Andrew Linden:	See you all later, thanks for coming.
[17:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Have fun Andrew. :-)
[17:01]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[17:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Ardy - Yes
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	We've been saying a lot of this stuff for years now, but I'm actually more optomistic now than I was a year ago
[17:01]	Charlette Proto:	byee Andrew
[17:01]	Skills Hak:	cya andrew
[17:01]	Xugu Madison:	See you Andrew!
[17:01]	Ashiri Sands:	cya Andrew
[17:01]	Alexia Leborski:	I agree, Simon...it is really fabulous technology...that is why I would hate to see anything happen to LL
[17:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Erf and I need to leave in 10 minutes.
[17:01]	Charlette Proto:	and I suppose Simon
[17:01]	Cerdita Piek:	Bye Andrew, take care :)
[17:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take care all
[17:01]	Alexia Leborski:	bye Andrew
[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	tc seb
[17:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Bye Seb :-)
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	I don't think anything is going to happen to LL soon ... I think a lot of people here believe it's giong to get better this year
[17:02]	Kaluura Boa	whispers: Wake up honey, it's over...
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	Anyway, I have to go too ... thanks all for coming and I'll see you next time
[17:02]	Liisa Runo:	was intresting and different OH today
[17:02]	Charlette Proto:	bye Simon
[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[17:02]	Ashiri Sands:	cya Simon
[17:02]	Kaluura Boa:	Yeah
[17:02]	Cerdita Piek:	Bye Simon, take care :)
[17:02]	Liisa Runo:	lil bit spooky
[17:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: yep, you still have time.
[17:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Simon, have a good weekend :-)
[17:03]	Cerdita Piek:	I have to go too, see you^^
[17:03]	Xugu Madison:	Seeya Simon!
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	Bye all!

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