User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 04 02

Transcript

[15:59]	Xugu Madison:	/me hates qauaternions too, but kinda sees where they're coming from...
[15:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	/me lol
[15:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	avatar abuse.
[15:59]	Wut Moorlord:	yeah, hamiltonian spaces are annoying
[15:59]	Wut Moorlord:	the thing you need to remember, is quaternions are a double covering
[15:59]	reddot99 Republic:	hey liisa. havent seen you in forever
[15:59]	Wut Moorlord:	so there are 2 ways to represent an angle
[15:59]	Liisa Runo:	hi all
[15:59]	Wut Moorlord:	that totally fucked my mind when i realised xD
[15:59]	Wut Moorlord:	hey Liisa
[15:59]	Xugu Madison:	hey Liisa!
[15:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	You can even link these up to be attached to one another, and have a chain of them dangling.
[15:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	IT's quite fun.
[15:59]	Press Page	Up to move chair up, or Page Down to move chair down
[15:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	wow...real swings.
[15:59]	Wut Moorlord:	now that, is pretty darn cool
[15:59]	Chaley May:	Hi Liisa :)
[16:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Feel free to join me if you like.
[16:00]	reddot99 Republic:	sebastean, its even stranger making a swing entirely out of physical objects with no scripts
[16:00]	Simon Linden:	wow, the party has started early :)
[16:00]	Melfina Marshdevil:	yerah it has
[16:00]	Wut Moorlord:	simon! :D
[16:01]	reddot99 Republic:	simon, toy for you to mess with and figure out :p
[16:01]	Rodney Monitor:	Is that the Rope Constraint script I saw in the wiki?
[16:01]	Xugu Madison:	wb Simon!
[16:01]	reddot99 Republic:	and yes that is i think
[16:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It's a modified version, yes
[16:02]	reddot99 Republic:	simon, something to wrap your head around, partial volume detect
[16:02]	Wut Moorlord:	lol xstorm :D
[16:02]	Rodney Monitor:	I tried to get my real name but apparently its already taken.
[16:02]	Simon Linden:	Partial of what, a linked set of prims?
[16:02]	Xugu Madison:	Welcome to OH, which will partially be held on the ceiling today....
[16:02]	reddot99 Republic:	yeah
[16:03]	Rodney Monitor:	But I guess that doesn't really matter here.
[16:03]	reddot99 Republic:	one of the two prims i gave you isvolume detect
[16:03]	Xugu Madison:	For that matter, partial phantom objects?
[16:03]	Wut Moorlord:	yep, swinging on prims has been the theme tonight :)
[16:03]	Eddi Decosta:	hey Andrew!! ㋡
[16:03]	reddot99 Republic:	yes xugu
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me waves to all
[16:03]	Eddi Decosta:	miew, for morgaine!:p
[16:03]	Latif Khalifa:	hello andrew
[16:03]	Xugu Madison:	hey Morgaine!
[16:03]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[16:03]	Latif Khalifa:	hi simon
[16:04]	Eddi Decosta:	hi latif and simon ㋡
[16:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Wut is accelerating to launch speed :P
[16:04]	Horrible Calamity:	I think someoen just got sent into low earth orbit
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm friends with this werewolf. He doesn't bite or his dentist bills become outragious.
[16:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Someone hit the energy gain bug.
[16:04]	Simon Linden:	One of our developers is looking into some interesting options for physics settings on prims ... it goes along with mesh work. It should open up some interesting possibilities, particularly higher performance because you can build good looking objects without horribly complex physical shapes
[16:04]	Rodney Monitor:	Define "orbit" in the context of a flat world.
[16:05]	reddot99 Republic:	heh,
[16:05]	Eddi Decosta:	i think i have find the trouble to fps drop on 2.0 viewer !!!
[16:05]	xstorm Radek:	/me pokes ducan
[16:05]	reddot99 Republic:	simon, i saw the havok 7 beta on the jira
[16:05]	Xugu Madison:	Simon, and perhaps huge vehicles? :)
[16:05]	reddot99 Republic:	how long till that comes out?
[16:05]	ducan Donat:	dont poke men... and listen to the lindens ... or bad things wil happen to u if u dont o.....o
[16:05]	ducan Donat:	me*
[16:05]	Xugu Madison:	reddot, I think they said June/July
[16:05]	Melfina Marshdevil:	havok 7 is being previewed on aditi in oatmeal regions
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	I think Falcon Linden is going to show up to this hour later to talk about Havok7.
[16:05]	Melfina Marshdevil:	heh
[16:06]	Melfina Marshdevil:	its fun.
[16:06]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:06]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Does anyone have a set of dice textures? :P
[16:06]	reddot99 Republic:	oh nice, heh
[16:06]	Techwolf Lupindo:	H7 is on some oatmeal regines on the betagrid. So you can go play with it.
[16:06]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure ...Havok 7 was/is on some Aditi regions. The public demo last week quickly turned into a crash contest :)
[16:06]	reddot99 Republic:	theres a dice in library
[16:06]	Liisa Runo:	there is dice in the library
[16:06]	Andrew Linden:	He recently deployed a fixed simulator to the Havok7 regions and wants people to test it
[16:06]	reddot99 Republic:	lol,
[16:06]	Andrew Linden:	(er... try to crash it)
[16:06]	Wut Moorlord:	oh my god
[16:06]	Xugu Madison:	Simon, that was an accident I swear!
[16:06]	Melfina Marshdevil:	they kept the regions online after the meeting
[16:06]	ducan Donat:	lol
[16:06]	Xugu Madison:	:)
[16:06]	Wut Moorlord:	ah, i had a moment there where i was falling at a million miles an hour :)
[16:06]	Melfina Marshdevil:	skills!
[16:06]	Skills Hak:	oh hi
[16:06]	Xugu Madison:	Seriously though, I believe we did at least hammer out a lot of bugs as a side-effect
[16:07]	Wut Moorlord:	hey skills
[16:07]	Simon Linden:	It was actually good ... I think Falcon has a better idea of what he's up against :)
[16:07]	Latif Khalifa:	any progress on finding script corruption bug that halted 1.38?
[16:07]	reddot99 Republic:	script corruption bug?
[16:07]	Xugu Madison:	I felt really bad for Oskar, who apparently felt that letting 30-40 excited beta testers onto the region would be some sort of calm, coherent affair....
[16:07]	Andrew Linden:	Kelly was looking for the script corruption bug.
[16:07]	Wut Moorlord:	Simon, does it fix the. err. linkset crash that will not be discussed to much?
[16:07]	xstorm Radek:	Simon have you talk to Oskar Linden about moving a load test to Trendone mainland ?
[16:07]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know the status of that, do you Simon?
[16:07]	Melfina Marshdevil:	oskar was pissed. :/
[16:07]	Xugu Madison:	...and not, in fact, an exercise in emptying our inventories of the worst possible cases
[16:08]	Simon Linden:	I know people have been looking at the script bug, but it's been hard to reproduce
[16:08]	reddot99 Republic:	also, i got that sitbased turret sorta working
[16:09]	Simon Linden:	I haven't talked to Oskar about load testing, no
[16:09]	reddot99 Republic:	it goes upsidedown at times but it turns safely, lol
[16:09]	Skills Hak:	poor oskar deserves a vacation lol
[16:10]	xstorm Radek:	if you did a load test will it not stress the scripts and sim crossing and may show some of the data you may need ?
[16:10]	Xugu Madison:	/me nods to Skills "Agreed, he seems stressed senseless"
[16:10]	Wut Moorlord:	yeah
[16:11]	Wut Moorlord:	poor guy. don't forget to tell him he's doing great and is not being blamed for all of LL's failings :)
[16:11]	Xugu Madison:	Once H7 stabilised, it felt faster than H4, but that could just be a lightly loaded sim...
[16:12]	Simon Linden:	I don't know about specifics, but I'm pretty sure Falcon had ideas on how to speed some things up wiht the new version
[16:12]	Wut Moorlord:	heya rex
[16:12]	Rex Cronon:	greetings everybody
[16:12]	Horrible Calamity:	H7 performs far better than H4. If the perforamnce isn't noticable its a poor implementation or scalability issues on LL's side
[16:12]	Andrew Linden:	It was probably psychosomatic -- H7 should only shine when you throw physical sim bombs at it.
[16:13]	xstorm Radek:	good to see you Rex
[16:13]	Rex Cronon:	hi wut
[16:13]	Xugu Madison:	Horrible, it's always going to suffer from being a server-side physics sim that's then broadcast
[16:13]	Rex Cronon:	hi xstorm
[16:13]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, yeah. Did you see prim mountain, when it was on Oatmeal 6, actually? Went in to do testing and it was covered in 5x5x5 cubes
[16:14]	Andrew Linden:	No Xugo, I didn't see it.
[16:14]	Andrew Linden:	A mountaing of dynamic prims?
[16:14]	xstorm Radek:	was there any drifting ?
[16:14]	Xugu Madison:	It would be nice to see client-side physics done properly (say, with ODE), and then corrected from the Havok 7 server-side reference copy, but tricky...
[16:14]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew; yeah. Worked.... relatively well, actually.
[16:14]	Melfina Marshdevil:	ODE.... it doesnt work.
[16:14]	Horrible Calamity:	The problem there would be trust
[16:15]	Melfina Marshdevil:	not for me at least.
[16:15]	Xugu Madison:	xstorm... not until we stood on it
[16:15]	Wut Moorlord:	lol
[16:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	ODE?
[16:15]	Horrible Calamity:	Letting the client decide physics would be a BAD IDEA
[16:15]	Horrible Calamity:	Open Dynamics Engine
[16:15]	Xugu Madison:	Open Dynamics Engine, which is what OpenSim uses mostly
[16:15]	Horrible Calamity:	^
[16:15]	xstorm Radek:	ok why are old scripted doors drifting on havok 4 ?
[16:15]	Xugu Madison:	Horrible, yes, but it should be able to take decent guesses (rather than you just continuing on into space) and use the server only as an authorative version
[16:16]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I think what they are trying to get at is better client side predection.
[16:16]	Horrible Calamity:	Ah
[16:16]	Xugu Madison:	Techwolf, exactly
[16:16]	Wut Moorlord:	yeah, do people with higher framerates than my pitiful 15fps see fluid movement when things tumble around?
[16:16]	Andrew Linden:	The server's "object update" system is independent of the physics engine, and is what we call the "interestlist code"
[16:16]	Simon Linden:	I had an interesting conversation yesterday with one of viewer lead engineers ... a few of them are starting to look at the viewer prediction code
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	The interestlist needs work, and is actually scheduled for an overhaul later this year.
[16:17]	zeusdinne Baroque:	Greetings everyone!!!! ☺
[16:17]	Melfina Marshdevil:	what would that mean andrew?
[16:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	/me's impressed, with more than 5 fps
[16:17]	Xugu Madison:	/me flash-backs to previous conversations on interest list, and tries to hide under the table
[16:17]	Wut Moorlord:	hi zeusdinne!
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	It's on the schedule, but I already saw the schedule slip.
[16:17]	Simon Linden:	Right now it's really brain-dead simple, and they think they can lessen the visual impact of lag a bit without having to do a full-blown physics simulation
[16:17]	Rex Cronon:	hi zeus
[16:17]	zeusdinne Baroque:	/me wiggles her fingers smiling
[16:17]	Wut Moorlord:	Arawn: oh this is with no detail on an empty sim. i'm normaly 5fps. which is a pity since fallout 3 runs at 75fps :)
[16:18]	Xugu Madison:	Hoping with HTTP textures coming in, congestion handling will improve in SL and that should also mean less lag spikes
[16:18]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew as long as i do not have to make a new account do to getting stuck in a black hole ;-)
[16:18]	Melfina Marshdevil:	heh direct asset access via http would be nice in some cases.
[16:18]	Horrible Calamity:	Offloading as much work as possible to the client is definitely the way to go
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Letting the client do physics is fine as long as the server is authoritative. The only crucial role of the sim physics is handling bounding boxes to enforce physical separation and effect of gravity on the center of gravity of objects.
[16:18]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Andrew, overhaul of the inteast list or going to a zone type deal where the clinet connects to zones and each zone is a static list of an area. One connection wold deal wtih dymiatic objects.
[16:19]	Techwolf Lupindo:	This would unload some of the intrest list compuations to client side.
[16:19]	Andrew Linden:	Techwolf, I believe the planned overhaul of the interestlist involves what you are thinking about
[16:19]	Xugu Madison:	/me would love to see smaller sims, BTW. So malls that might be quarter-sim otherwise, can run on an isolated server without having to rendering the chaos surrounding them
[16:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	How would viewer-side physics prediction handle things should we at some point, say, allow sims with varying gravity?
[16:19]	Andrew Linden:	object updates would be coalesced into "streams", to which the viewer would then subscribe.
[16:20]	Andrew Linden:	That would allow multicasting the same data to several subscribers
[16:20]	Xugu Madison:	Seb; presumably sims would embed core constants into a configuration thingy they could send to the client
[16:20]	DrFran Babcock:	DrFran Babcock
[16:20]	Andrew Linden:	at the moment the interestlist code has indepdendent state for each avatar
[16:20]	Techwolf Lupindo:	This would have so many advantages, high bandwith client can connect to many zones and max thing out for a burst. Low bandewith client can just connect to what they needs and keep things sane.
[16:20]	Andrew Linden:	right, your "zone" is what I'm calling a "stream"
[16:21]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew any talk or testing may be for moving the textures to there own server yet ?
[16:21]	Xugu Madison:	random aside; any news on class 6 sims, Lindens?
[16:21]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, you're asking about the HTTP texture download pipeline?
[16:21]	Xugu Madison:	xstorm; the move for textures next is HTTP, and Babbage was saying Viewer 2.1 for that
[16:21]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[16:21]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, babbage knows more about that
[16:21]	reddot99 Republic:	couldnt a way to test performance for the h7 be to remove the frame rate limits on the simulater, in otherwords, remove the 45 fps cap?
[16:21]	Xugu Madison:	/me throws a dart at a calendar "So, call it July"
[16:21]	Andrew Linden:	last I heard it was "done, wating for QA attention"
[16:22]	xstorm Radek:	ok
[16:22]	Andrew Linden:	that is, the server-side stuff was done
[16:22]	Simon Linden:	I wrote a bug that did that, and got over 1000fps on an empty sim :)
[16:22]	Andrew Linden:	the viewer part was done a long time ago
[16:22]	Xugu Madison:	/me nods "That's what he was saying on Wednesday, too"
[16:22]	xstorm Radek:	wow
[16:22]	Xugu Madison:	On an empty sim, you can.... eh, nevermind
[16:22]	Melfina Marshdevil:	falcon is here.
[16:22]	xstorm Radek:	1000 FPS ???
[16:22]	Xugu Madison:	nothing on class-6 sims then?
[16:22]	Xugu Madison:	Welcome Falcon to the chaos :)
[16:22]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Well hey there FAlcon
[16:22]	Xugu Madison:	I'm sorry I broke your sims, I hope it helped
[16:23]	Simon Linden:	The 45 fps number is tough to change ... it's pretty well baked into the code
[16:23]	Andrew Linden:	Hey Falcon. I mentioned that you might show up today and talk about Havok7
[16:23]	Falcon Linden:	Indeed!
[16:23]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps you can recruit some of these attendees to test it out for you
[16:23]	Simon Linden:	I'm not convinced there's much advantage at trying to change that number as compared to how much work it would be
[16:23]	Falcon Linden:	Xugu: So you were the one?
[16:23]	Wut Moorlord:	haha
[16:23]	Xugu Madison:	Falcon; I believe first, but not by any means only
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: subscribing shouldn't really be to streams. Each client should be able to request through caps only those things which it wishes to appear on the interest list, so that text-only clients for example would not subscribe to interest in any graphic assets nor objects for example.
[16:23]	xstorm Radek:	greetings Falcon
[16:24]	Falcon Linden:	Wells, you get 5 bonus points for crashing it, but you lose 50 for not submitting a jira :)
[16:24]	Xugu Madison:	Rezzed something that de-linked a prim from itself, and that was apparently fatal in early versions
[16:24]	Falcon Linden:	Hi all
[16:24]	Falcon Linden:	Xugu, ah, that one. Nix the -50, then, you did submit a jira
[16:24]	Wut Moorlord:	Xugu: oh well since you just explained the exploit, it means that delink is still not fixed :S
[16:24]	Rex Cronon:	hi falcon
[16:24]	Falcon Linden:	No, it's fixed
[16:24]	Wut Moorlord:	o/
[16:24]	Wut Moorlord:	good. PN know about that
[16:24]	Xugu Madison:	Wut; I tested it a couple of days back, looked fixed...
[16:25]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, I think the streams I'm thinking of would be mostly the stuff that most viewers would be interested in (objects and their positions, mostly)
[16:25]	Xugu Madison:	Yeah... thought it might have been the second crash, but once I actually found the cause it wasn't anyting I did after the first time
[16:25]	Andrew Linden:	differernt types of streams (textures for example) wouldn't go through the interestlist (since they don't now)
[16:25]	Falcon Linden:	But yeah, I'm hoping more of you can come to the Oatmeal sims, crash them, and submit jiras with repro steps
[16:26]	Wut Moorlord:	uh, which ones can we destroy?
[16:26]	Horrible Calamity:	Which grid Falcon, beta?
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: ah, one stream per item type, yeah, that sounds line.
[16:26]	Xugu Madison:	I've shaken most of my inventory into the sim, and it looks good, BTW. Need to try some of the stupidly big ships, next...
[16:26]	reddot99 Republic:	would the bug with volume detect and avatars not getting hit when sitting on volume detect objects get fixed? or will that one survive (i'm hoping survive)
[16:26]	Andrew Linden:	Not everyone has an account on the test grid (aditi)
[16:26]	Xugu Madison:	Horrible, yeah. I think you may also need to be part of the Second Life Beta group, but it's open to join
[16:26]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Falcon, even if it just "I rez xxxxx many objects at onece and *poof*"?
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	s/line/fine/
[16:26]	Xugu Madison:	TEch, if you can do it repeatedly, sure :)
[16:26]	zeusdinne Baroque:	I cant get in into Aditi
[16:26]	Wut Moorlord:	Xugu: grey goo fence is no match for my madness
[16:27]	Falcon Linden:	In particular, Oatmeal 6, 7, 10, and 11 should run at full speed, but I need repros on Oatmeal 9, 13, and 14 (debug)
[16:27]	Liisa Runo:	it is not a bug. it is a feature, and important feature too, "fixing" it would ruin many vehicles and what not
[16:27]	Xugu Madison:	Noted
[16:27]	Falcon Linden:	Tech: especially. I know there's a bug around that I /think/ I fixed
[16:27]	zeusdinne Baroque:	(the test grid apparently I change my password at one time whatever that was my new one is not working)
[16:27]	Andrew Linden:	I think Falcon is willing to help anyone get into aditi who wants to test Havok7.
[16:27]	Melfina Marshdevil:	IM Oskar Linden for a account sync on aditi.
[16:27]	Wut Moorlord:	or anyone bored enough to nest a zillion prims by hand into an exponential replicating nightmare :)
[16:27]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99, I'm not familiar with that one
[16:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Aditi might still think your account is closed.
[16:27]	Andrew Linden:	Your test-grid account can be synced to your main-grid account, password and inventory.
[16:28]	Falcon Linden:	Ping Oskar or me, although I can't easily get you into the group, so Oskar might be better
[16:28]	reddot99 Republic:	its mostly used in combat sims for armored vehicles
[16:28]	xstorm Radek:	Falcon what sim in Aditi ?
[16:28]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I think groups can't be synced.
[16:28]	zeusdinne Baroque:	yes maybe I hope can get fixed so I can test my textures and builds there
[16:28]	Falcon Linden:	Oatmeal 6, 7, 10, and 11 should run at full speed, but I need repros on Oatmeal 9, 13, and 14 (debug)
[16:29]	Xugu Madison:	It's quiet. Too quiet....
[16:29]	xstorm Radek:	ok i will drop on in later Falcon
[16:29]	Andrew Linden:	That's a good question. What regions are running Havok7. Just some of the Oatmeal regions?
[16:29]	Liisa Runo:	all oatmeals
[16:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oatmeal?
[16:29]	Andrew Linden:	ok good, that makes it simple
[16:29]	Falcon Linden:	No, Oatmeals 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 13 and 14 only
[16:29]	Horrible Calamity:	Yeah this account is too new
[16:29]	Falcon Linden:	but they're not all the same
[16:29]	zeusdinne Baroque:	can I test the Havok7?
[16:29]	Horrible Calamity:	I need a sync
[16:29]	reddot99 Republic:	are hinges going to be re-enabled?
[16:29]	xstorm Radek:	Falcon can i run a physics test and load ???
[16:30]	Xugu Madison:	Can we talk syncing accounts later? Falcon, exciting plans for H7?
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	once again, 6, 7, 10, 11 = release (faster, so good for initial testing) and 9, 13, 14 are debug (very important for reproducing the bugs)
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	Anyone who needs help getting into aditi or syncing should PM me after the meeting
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	Xugu: Not off the bat, no. However, one exciting feature that will be coming at some point is the ability to specify prims as having no physics shape
[16:30]	reddot99 Republic:	can you log into both grids at once?
[16:31]	Falcon Linden:	and only prims with physics shapes get counted toward, for example, vehicles
[16:31]	Andrew Linden:	yess reddot99
[16:31]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Does stacking blocks still have the gap or was that fixed?
[16:31]	xstorm Radek:	if i have problems getting on im will kick my server lol
[16:31]	Falcon Linden:	xstorm: yes, please do
[16:31]	Xugu Madison:	Falcon, so we could make the cockpit of a vehicle normal, and the giant rest of the ship unshaped, and it would... work?
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Pity we can't treat Aditi as a separate world to which we just TP (using hacks, since no VWRAP protocol yet). A lot more testing could be done then.
[16:31]	Falcon Linden:	Xugu: yes
[16:31]	Andrew Linden:	Here, I'll do test grid syncs right now for anyone here.
[16:31]	Wut Moorlord:	Falcon: that... is awesome and will fix many issues
[16:32]	Techwolf Lupindo:	reddot99, yes. I've use two client and was logged into both grids at same time.
[16:32]	reddot99 Republic:	xugu i did that by a bug recently actualy in this grid
[16:32]	Falcon Linden:	Techwolf: It was never a bug, just not a great implementation. It hasn't changed, but once you can specify some prims as having physics and others not, you can shrink the physics prim and link it to larger non-physics prim to give the appears of perfect stacking
[16:32]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I double log on both grids quite frequently.
[16:33]	Andrew Linden:	done: Calamity and zeusdinne
[16:33]	Horrible Calamity:	Thank you
[16:33]	Wut Moorlord:	wb chaley
[16:33]	Timtom Davi:	wud up gangstas
[16:33]	Wut Moorlord:	we're gangsta now/
[16:33]	Chaley May:	tnx :)
[16:34]	zeusdinne Baroque:	Yeiiii
[16:34]	Falcon Linden:	Wut of course, you'll still be limited to 255 or 256 prims in a linkset
[16:34]	Timtom Davi:	yall wanna play with my dice?
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	for now, at least. I'll chat with Andrew about whether we need to keep that limit
[16:35]	Wut Moorlord:	Falcon: understandable, but i have a bunch of friends you hit the 50 prim limit regularly and it's annoying
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	It's 32 :)
[16:35]	Wut Moorlord:	oh. 32. see? i don't build. can you tell? :)
[16:35]	xstorm Radek:	ok i was thinking what about Linked tree sets of 256 prims ?
[16:36]	Falcon Linden:	I haven't given any thought to trees in particular
[16:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	Problem with relaxing the 256 limit, is the resize scripts in the hair
[16:36]	Timtom Davi:	how do u dance im new
[16:36]	zeusdinne Baroque:	yip I was thinking same
[16:36]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Arawn, I have the perfect solution for that ;)
[16:36]	Wut Moorlord:	Arawn: don't follow?
[16:36]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	llSetObjectscale
[16:36]	xstorm Radek:	that way you have 1 root prim that sets of 256 prims will be linked with
[16:37]	Falcon Linden:	Arawn: Hmm, good point. Okay, limit stays ;)
[16:37]	DrFran Babcock:	I hardly ever understand Arawn
[16:37]	Xugu Madison:	There's a lot of work about to be done in replacing resizers
[16:37]	Falcon Linden:	Luckily, attachments aren't my domain since they have no physics
[16:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Xugu, I'm not convined everyone will be so quick to change, there are still a lot of obstacles.
[16:37]	Andrew Linden:	There are a number of things I'd like to fix before we increase the prim-count-link-limit.
[16:37]	Melfina Marshdevil:	script limits should in fact disallow resizers.
[16:37]	xstorm Radek:	so you can have 4 sets of 256 prims with one link prim to them all
[16:38]	Wut Moorlord:	Arawn/zeus: ah you mean lagdeath?
[16:38]	reddot99 Republic:	the getlinkprimparameters should help that a lot,
[16:38]	Liisa Runo:	1.38 will help, but could be even more simple
[16:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, do you know of anything being done in the direction of llSEtObjectScale? Or perhaps, PRIM_LOCAL_POS/ROT for llGetLPP, and perhaps a method to calculate the max linkability distance for a prim of X size?
[16:39]	zeusdinne Baroque:	yes
[16:39]	Andrew Linden:	I think Sebastean knows the most about problems with rescaling lots of prims with one script -- he submitted a proposal to us on a single LSL call for the operation
[16:39]	Timtom Davi:	does any body wanna smash
[16:39]	xstorm Radek:	greetings Timtom Davi if you need any help please let us know
[16:39]	Andrew Linden:	however a few LL developers are not in favor, mostly for not making the LSL interface any messier
[16:40]	Melfina Marshdevil:	or or.... change no modify to allow resize...
[16:40]	Melfina Marshdevil:	that would eliminate those scripts.
[16:40]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Melfina - there are more uses than simply for no-mod scripts.
[16:40]	Horrible Calamity:	I've been gone for quite some time; is there any particular reason why the push to C# was never done?
[16:40]	Timtom Davi:	well how do you dance
[16:40]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Wings that shrink or grow is one of my favorite examples.
[16:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	I can't find Onigokko in my inventory, for Timtom
[16:40]	Melfina Marshdevil:	no mod on objects :P
[16:40]	Melfina Marshdevil:	ease the no mod limit on resize.
[16:40]	Melfina Marshdevil:	thats all.
[16:40]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Another example are interactive objects which you own, but another person resizes.
[16:41]	xstorm Radek:	Timtom Davi :-) you dance with animations do you wish a ball that will let you dance ?
[16:41]	Wut Moorlord:	wear that timtom
[16:41]	Chaley May:	hmm that would be good being ablle to resize a nomod without any other permissions
[16:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Large builds with custom size options, typing AO objects, etc.
[16:41]	Wut Moorlord:	onigokko
[16:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	That would be especially helpful, for mulstiple objects which all need to resize together in sync.
[16:42]	reddot99 Republic:	is havok 7 going to get the crossborder collisions fixed?
[16:42]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99 no, though we have been thinking about ways to move forward on that
[16:42]	xstorm Radek:	there you go Timtom Davi a free Chimera and welcome to second life :-)
[16:42]	Andrew Linden:	Horrible, they are still working on the C# stuff. It is working, but only in demo mode right now. Babbage and Kelly linden know more about it.
[16:43]	Falcon Linden:	The initial release of the Havok 7 sims should not be significantly different from current sims in terms of behavior or features. Instead, it's about providing us the performance headroom we need to add those new features in the future
[16:43]	Horrible Calamity:	I'll contact Babbage later, thanks Andrew
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	I'm currently working on region crossing stuff -- cleanup right now, but it is a necessary prerequisite.
[16:43]	Wut Moorlord:	hm, that's a point, Sebastean, did anyone come back to you with any sneak peek details on LSL2?
[16:44]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	What do you mean, Wut? Sneak peek?
[16:44]	DrFran Babcock:	Vermy!
[16:45]	Wut Moorlord:	Seb: oh maybe it wasn't you. I was at an OH a while back, and someone asked for more information on LSL2, and the Linden said they'd forward the message on. :)
[16:45]	Wut Moorlord:	Since it wasn't you, I will suddenly stop talking about it :)
[16:45]	xstorm Radek:	Timtom Davi do you wish to go to a place to dance ?
[16:45]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	LSL2 is already in existence as far as I know. C# was supposed to be the "LSL3"
[16:45]	Wut Moorlord:	ah, LSL3 then. the c# one :)
[16:46]	Horrible Calamity:	Preferablly, work on LSL would halt and C# would get the attention
[16:46]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, if you're working on sim crossings, could you add the ability to flag scripts as not to be serialised? I've got stuff that just resets on sim change, seems a waste to serialise its state then deserialse, then reset
[16:46]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Babbage has spoken a lot about it at his office hours. If you can make 3AM next week on Wednesday you'll be able to ask him.
[16:46]	Wut Moorlord:	Seb: ah, will do, thanks :)
[16:46]	Andrew Linden:	LSL3 is in development, yes. Dunno if it will be out by end of year. There is a recent video online of Babbage talking at a conference about it -- technical talk.
[16:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, is LSL3 C# or something different?
[16:47]	Wut Moorlord:	Andrew: ooh, that's the stuff :)
[16:47]	Simon Linden:	Actually on a lot of this work, there's little difference between the LSL or C# side of things ... the real work is in the common code that does thigns to SL objects and settings
[16:47]	Liisa Runo:	the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGneU76KuSY
[16:47]	Andrew Linden:	LSL3 would be C#, but we don't use the "LSL3" term.
[16:47]	xstorm Radek:	sorry about Timtom Davi he is only 1 day old
[16:47]	Simon Linden:	C# should bring better 'real langauge'features though
[16:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Ahh, ok, that's what I thought.
[16:47]	Wut Moorlord:	thanks Liisa
[16:47]	Wut Moorlord:	xstorm: we were all 1 day old once :)
[16:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yes, like arrays :) Lovely, lovely arrays.
[16:47]	Andrew Linden:	it is a long vide (1 hour)
[16:47]	Simon Linden:	Thanks for helping him
[16:48]	Horrible Calamity:	Arrays, delegates, all the goodies
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	Sebastean: What, you don't like having to call a function to extract a member of a list?
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	:-P
[16:48]	xstorm Radek:	:-) no need to say thank you
[16:48]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hehe
[16:48]	zeusdinne Baroque:	☺
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	/me wants to implement raycasting.
[16:49]	Wut Moorlord:	Falcon: :D
[16:49]	Wut Moorlord:	Falcon: http://ozviz.wasp.uwa.edu.au/ ~pbourke/geometry/
[16:49]	Horrible Calamity:	If the interface between SL objects and C# is done properly and portable, all CIL-targeted languages could work in the future
[16:49]	Xugu Madison:	Falcon, and finally fix SVC-27? :)
[16:49]	A script	buffers events while not running
[16:49]	Xugu Madison:	sorry, VWR27
[16:49]	Xugu Madison:	VWR-27 ?
[16:49]	Prim textures	overlap strangely when transparent textures applied
[16:50]	Falcon Linden:	No, I /know/ how to implement it, I mean, I want to implement a scripting interface to it
[16:50]	Falcon Linden:	And why would textures relate to that?
[16:50]	Xugu Madison:	Probably the best/only way of finding surface ordering correctly
[16:50]	Wut Moorlord:	Falcon: ooh, sorry, misinterpreted. :)
[16:50]	reddot99 Republic:	in rendering raycasting decides order of visibility among other things
[16:50]	Wut Moorlord:	raycasting would solve a lot of issues
[16:50]	Falcon Linden:	yeah, this won't be a rendering raycast. Physics only.
[16:51]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5381
[16:51]	Create llCastRay	for raytracing operations
[16:51]	xstorm Radek:	Dan linden has been running tests for over a number of years with textures and moving prims on the bug island
[16:51]	Wut Moorlord:	firing physical spheres off in a straight line somewhat sucks
[16:51]	Xugu Madison:	Curses, foiled again....
[16:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: I support Xugu's call for "No state transfer on region change" option (ie no serialize) but from two different angles: (i) my VWRAP interop angle --- you will never be able to transfer script state from a different scripting VM running on a 3rd party region / world; and (ii) Your current "always serialize region state" approach makes it impossible to escape from a non-responsive region except by exitting the client.
[16:51]	Xugu Madison:	No state on rez, too, would be good. Again, things that are reset when rezzed...
[16:51]	Falcon Linden:	Yeah, I want to destroy all projectile weapons and make people replace them with raycasts...I won't be able to do that, but at least I'd like to give them the option :-P
[16:52]	reddot99 Republic:	so it'd be a replacement for bullets then?
[16:52]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:52]	Simon Linden:	I'm going to get a dance tip jar soon ... or maybe a big gong on the side :)
[16:52]	reddot99 Republic:	well, what happens to missles and grenades and flamers?
[16:52]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Falcon, all the best systems would change to raycasting. WEapons dev is a very competitive market, and raycasting would be a definite edge.
[16:52]	Rex Cronon:	u want u to use lazers:)
[16:52]	Wut Moorlord:	Falcon: it would totally cheer up the physics engine :)
[16:52]	Jonathan Yap:	Death by raygun?? :)
[16:52]	Xugu Madison:	Falcon, and somehow my brain thinks "Deathrays?"
[16:52]	Wut Moorlord:	RAILGUN
[16:53]	Alphonso Pidgeon:	Crap. I only just learned to script bullets
[16:53]	Wut Moorlord:	oh, a way to fire off a bunch of rays in one go would be really handy for e.g. shotguns
[16:53]	xstorm Radek:	ray trace with mesh or bonding box or texture box ?
[16:53]	Andrew Linden:	I think you have plenty of time Alphonso. Months at least.
[16:53]	Simon Linden:	Alphonso - don't worry, this won't be real soon
[16:53]	DrFran Babcock:	:-)
[16:53]	reddot99 Republic:	actually, that'd screw up a good bit of existing content, as we'd have to figure out how to tell when a ray hits an object, and it'd be impossible to limit them,
[16:53]	Alphonso Pidgeon:	Heh
[16:53]	xstorm Radek:	or will it be in wireframe ray test ?
[16:53]	Falcon Linden:	Wut: 4. 4 in one go. Maybe.
[16:54]	Wut Moorlord:	Falcon, that is enough to be usefukl
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	xstorm: ray cast again physics shapes only
[16:54]	Wut Moorlord:	plus i guess you could fire off more from scripts within a linkset
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	Wut: No.
[16:54]	xstorm Radek:	oh ok
[16:54]	Wut Moorlord:	ah. okay
[16:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	Usefukl sounds like a useful term, in some context
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	Wut: Somehow, I'll make sure you can't send off more than X raycasts in a frame from objects owned by the sameperson or something.
[16:55]	Wut Moorlord:	Falcon: not a bad idea actually
[16:55]	Xugu Madison:	Anyone looked at adding better support for combat systems, BTW? Say with parcel-level scripts, that handle all damage on a parcel?
[16:55]	reddot99 Republic:	that'll screw up some other things,
[16:55]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	Wut: Or you'll risk the raycasts coming back 10 frames later, or something. But I actually meant that doing 4 raycasts can be akmost as cheap as 1 under some circumstances
[16:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ground Detections would be useful in destroying bullets
[16:55]	Wut Moorlord:	hey, you could even do decals with that for bulletholes
[16:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: did you register the reasons I gave why "no state transfer" is an important option? (I've already raised it in VWRAP as an improvement for protocol robustness.)
[16:55]	Wut Moorlord:	provided we get surface normal info like touch events
[16:55]	Horrible Calamity:	Backwards compatibility must die at some point.
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	Xugu: Actually, I had a thought on that
[16:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	The dice have fallen.
[16:56]	Liisa Runo:	(i have amde a gun that uses several rezzer scripts owned by several different accounts, yes it takes the sim down but was intresting experiment)
[16:56]	Horrible Calamity:	Windows is the perfect example of bloat over time because of compatibility concerns
[16:56]	Techwolf Lupindo:	..and can't get up
[16:56]	Falcon Linden:	Xugu: I'm thinking about a system where you could verify that another user has a script with a particular signature. That way combat scripts could verify all players were using the same scripts
[16:56]	xstorm Radek:	i was thinking of watching every one float away in to the air dome
[16:56]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, you want scripts to NOT save state on... relog, simulator restart, and/or border crossing?
[16:56]	zeusdinne Baroque:	ah good idea!
[16:56]	xstorm Radek:	>:-)
[16:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	/me woners what ever happend to Sindy Tsure, and mentions SVC-22 and SVC-93, just to keep his hand in
[16:56]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[16:56]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[16:56]	Xugu Madison:	Falcon, I like the intent, but wouldn't it be simpler to put the combat scripts into the parcel rather than everyone having their own?
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	Liisa: Can you try it out on the new Havok 7 test regions? But if you do, please be sure to submit a jira so I know that if it still crashes, I can ignore it for now :)
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	Xugu: More work to do that
[16:57]	reddot99 Republic:	no, i prefer the teleport home method, allmost all sl militaries use the linden labs damage system
[16:57]	Horrible Calamity:	Oh, and on that note, has a function been introduced to retrieve client viewer versions?
[16:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	If they're regulation Combat Scripts, aren't they loaded on the Sim?
[16:57]	Xugu Madison:	I believe SVC-93 is waiting on LSL function library versioning, and then on a Linden being brave enough to tackle it
[16:57]	Wut Moorlord:	aww and the teleport home when you have no home hack got fixed damn you lindens :)
[16:57]	Horrible Calamity:	llGetClientVersion() = [<channel string>,<major>,<minor>,<bug>]
[16:58]	xstorm Radek:	i like to see my 991 prim build rez on it
[16:58]	Xugu Madison:	Falcon, I suppose it's good to have something, even if it's not perfect, than wait 4 years for perfection...
[16:58]	zeusdinne Baroque:	lol
[16:58]	Horrible Calamity:	It would greatily easy making intelligent scripts that use features in newer viewers
[16:58]	Horrible Calamity:	When its possible to identify the viewer version and degrade gracefully
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	In general, folks, I think most major new script features will be waiting until C#
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	minor ones have a chance, though
[16:59]	Horrible Calamity:	Its not a major change
[16:59]	Horrible Calamity:	a couple lines at most
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	You'd be surprised :-P
[16:59]	xstorm Radek:	any time frame on the C sharp ?
[16:59]	reddot99 Republic:	oh, the object group flag on object details needs renabling please
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	/me actually has no idea on that particular thing
[16:59]	Wut Moorlord:	Falcon: i would somewhat prefer to use a real language, especially if i can start building structured types and actually hope to do things properly
[16:59]	Xugu Madison:	I think the short version is that unless there's a very obvious benefit in terms of script numbers involved, we're not going to see improvements for another 9+ months
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	Wut: That's what we think as well
[17:00]	Falcon Linden:	or, at least, I do
[17:00]	Wut Moorlord:	if you let us optimize things, we are able to :P
[17:00]	Horrible Calamity:	C# will easily cause a SL Reformation
[17:00]	Horrible Calamity:	Things never thought possible will become reality
[17:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: not directly, no, just make it an option in the protocol to allow region change without script state transfer. Xugu has other reasons for using that facility. My reasons are that you will need it for interop eventually, but more importantly, if you can break the dependence of TP on state transfer being MANDATORY, then you will have a more robust TP when the old region is non-responsive. I think Xugu wants that to be a user option, which is a good idea too, but different to my angles.
[17:00]	Horrible Calamity:	mmm....*dreams of polymorphic types*
[17:00]	Simon Linden:	Hopefully that plus meshes will have an impact :)
[17:00]	Wut Moorlord:	Horrible: and things which were possible but a pain in the butt will be worth doing
[17:00]	Xugu Madison:	There's a C# scripters group, BTW, which people may want to join...
[17:00]	Horrible Calamity:	Indeed :)
[17:01]	xstorm Radek:	will C# have a converter for all mu LSL and Mono scrips
[17:01]	Xugu Madison:	It's called, funnily enough, C# Scripters
[17:01]	Wut Moorlord:	Xugu: oh, could i have an invite?
[17:01]	Wut Moorlord:	oh, lol
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	Morgaine - so what would you want the scripts to do when they reach the new region? Reset and restart?
[17:01]	xstorm Radek:	yes i like to see that
[17:01]	Rex Cronon:	doing things in c# can no longer be called scripting. lol
[17:02]	Wut Moorlord:	Xugu: thanks
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	(I've been working on the processing of data during crossings recently)
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	Darn files are way too big
[17:02]	reddot99 Republic:	question related to veiwer 2, will the standard interface veiwer be getting updates for the 1.38 lsl functions? or will we be forced to use the veiwer 2.0 to use those functions? most of the folks that are involved in combat seem to think the veiwer 2.0 is a death sentence, for various reasons
[17:02]	xstorm Radek:	if the scrips reset and restart it will help in the network timing
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, I'm not fully grokking what you're asking for. Do you have a jira about it, or a forum thread, or something?
[17:02]	Wut Moorlord:	hmm, again i don't want to drift too off topic onto C# again, but will we have sensible memory limits to e.g. implement octrees/half-edges/other useful data structures?
[17:02]	Xugu Madison:	Simon, is this where I say LLSD and you scream? :)
[17:03]	Liisa Runo:	1.38 script functions compile on old clients, the client just dont see it as valid code
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	No Xugo, say "sculpties and scripts"
[17:03]	Falcon Linden:	Lilsa: exactly
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	yes, I think this is it ... unless my meds are strong enough today...
[17:03]	Xugu Madison:	Wut; the ability to use larger scripts (I believe up to 2MB) is coming, but still limited to per-parcel/per-avatar quotas
[17:03]	xstorm Radek:	what you think Morgaine ?
[17:03]	Falcon Linden:	Wut: Too early to guess what memory limits will be
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: the "protocol robustness" issue was explained in this VWRAP post -- http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ogpx/current/msg00571.html --- you can skip to final paragraph and it should still be understandable.
[17:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I need to get going folks - take care, I'll see you all later :)
[17:04]	Wut Moorlord:	Xugu: 2MB is waaaay more than needed for most purposes
[17:04]	Wut Moorlord:	tc seb!
[17:04]	Xugu Madison:	See you Seb!
[17:04]	Rex Cronon:	tc seb
[17:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Seb
[17:04]	Xugu Madison:	Wut, I'd hope so!
[17:04]	xstorm Radek:	Sebastean you going ?
[17:04]	Wut Moorlord:	Xugu: if it's not you're Doing It Wrong (tm) :)
[17:04]	xstorm Radek:	bye Sebastean
[17:04]	zeusdinne Baroque:	/me waves farewell
[17:05]	reddot99 Republic:	i would like a 1.24 or 25 then, instead of a 2.0 as the 2.0 just screws up most of what i've finally gotten the hang of,
[17:05]	Xugu Madison:	I'm also hoping we'll see the ability to pull error message text out of script bytecode, and into separate assets to be stored client-side (especially for supporting different natural languages), and that should drop memory usage significantly...
[17:05]	Xugu Madison:	2MB should be enough for anyone? :_D
[17:05]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99: I'm curious, give me 2 examples of how 2.0 screws everything up
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	hmmm, I see ... that's looking at the crossing issue from another angle, but I can see how it would help recover from unresponsive regions
[17:05]	Horrible Calamity:	Can someone please say something on voice?
[17:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: I have two different issues in mind, but that link I gave Simon covers one directly and the other indirectly. A non-responsive source sim would simply time out the required state transfer, while for interop, state transfer would NEVER happen.
[17:06]	Horrible Calamity:	Can someone please say something on voice (and tell me when they do it xD)
[17:06]	Wut Moorlord:	Xugu: if they need more than 2MB, that's more than Nokia series 40 phones have, and frankly they shouldn't expect LL to provide that at this stage :)
[17:06]	Xugu Madison:	Falcon, the really big issue is that once you get used to the simple parts of the interface, and want build, or upload, you have to go hunting for them
[17:06]	xstorm Radek:	Morgaine do you think it will help if scripted items was saved and reset when crossing and it will help network timing ??
[17:06]	reddot99 Republic:	lemme give you what the emerald devs called 2.0, "second life vista"
[17:06]	Falcon Linden:	Xugu: You'll get used to it pretty quick :P
[17:06]	Falcon Linden:	/me mostly loves Viewer 2
[17:06]	Horrible Calamity:	Wee, broke voice
[17:06]	Horrible Calamity:	JIRA time
[17:06]	reddot99 Republic:	what xugu said, and i want the old ui back st least
[17:07]	Xugu Madison:	Falcon, I might, but I've spent weeks having people rant to me about it...
[17:07]	Horrible Calamity:	Why isn't the entire interface in 2.0 rendered using webkit?
[17:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is Webkit fixed?
[17:07]	Xugu Madison:	Falcon, the really big thing it needs is a "I know what I'm doing, give me buttons" mode
[17:07]	Wut Moorlord:	Horrible Calamity: because webkit is shitslow rendering to textures?
[17:07]	Horrible Calamity:	The UI.
[17:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	xstorm: I don't know. I've been focussing on protocol resilience for TP. On region crossing then you're not going to be able to escape from a non-responsive region anyway.
[17:07]	Horrible Calamity:	Not in-world, the actual client UI.
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	Development on viewer-1.23 has stopped, however you can be sure they will be improving 2.0
[17:07]	Xugu Madison:	Horrible, no, it can render textures with webkit, but if the UI is webkit I'd be amazed
[17:07]	Liisa Runo:	Nokia is not programmed with LSL, so it dont need 2Mb
[17:08]	Falcon Linden:	Horrible: I'm speaking about something /way/ out of my knowledge base here, but I believe rendering UI over a GL region is rather difficult
[17:08]	reddot99 Republic:	and for the 2.0. i would at least have hoped for multithreading
[17:08]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99: Coming.
[17:08]	Simon Linden:	reddot - threading of what?
[17:08]	Wut Moorlord:	Falcon: it's not too bad, but seriously you need to build the UI system from scratch to work with it
[17:08]	reddot99 Republic:	everything
[17:08]	Horrible Calamity:	Falcon, Webkit supports using Cario as its output 'engine'
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps eventually they'll make more of the UI optional and win over some of you
[17:08]	Xugu Madison:	Liisa, yeah. The downside to Mono is the bytecode's actually quite big. Bytecode sharing really helps, though, as will having a common library with C#
[17:08]	Horrible Calamity:	and Cairo in turn supports easy bitmap output
[17:08]	Simon Linden:	I'm working on threading the VFS .... mainly for the server, but the viewer uses the same code
[17:08]	Xugu Madison:	/me nods to Andrew "Or Emerald will..."
[17:08]	Horrible Calamity:	which can simply be blitzed onto the GL surface
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	but releases will be every few months... it could take a while.
[17:08]	Xugu Madison:	I'll admit, but don't tell anyone please, I'm using Viewer 2 here ;)
[17:09]	Horrible Calamity:	As am I
[17:09]	Wut Moorlord:	Horrible: you can't blit in OpenGL at any speed.
[17:09]	Simon Linden:	My name is Simon and I'm using Viewer 2 also
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	right Xugu. Emerald and other TPV's will put the pressure on.
[17:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	T Linden said a couple of days ago that not only will there be no more work done on 1.x viewers, but 1.x support will be dropped shortly, when 2.1 or 2.2 comes out. No intention of supporting the 1.x UI at all.
[17:09]	Wut Moorlord:	Horrible: you can create a texture, sure, and draw that a zillion times. dynamically updating can go flakey on some cards though
[17:09]	Wut Moorlord:	nasty bus contention
[17:09]	Simon Linden:	I have to run ... thanks everyone for coming
[17:09]	Simon Linden:	See you next time
[17:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Simon
[17:10]	Wut Moorlord:	Thanks Simon!
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	Bye!
[17:10]	Xugu Madison:	Thanks for hosting Simon, Andrew!
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, supporting 1.23 does put a drag on some things
[17:10]	Falcon Linden:	Cheers Simon
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	for example, we'll have to exclude viewer-1.23 to fully remove the legacy texture download pipeline
[17:10]	Wut Moorlord:	Horrible: on the other hand if you beg to differ, i would like to talk more on this later, since it would be handy to do
[17:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: it's not really the 1.x *viewer* that people want. It's the 1.x ***UI***, because the 2.0 one is such a huge regression for most people, especially experts.
[17:11]	reddot99 Republic:	i'm staying on 1.23 until i get the 1.x interface with the 2.0 features. as the 2.0 didnt introduce anything that needed a ui redesign, i dont see the point in it
[17:11]	zeusdinne Baroque:	Gotta return RL... Thank you all muamuamua
[17:11]	reddot99 Republic:	yes, i want the ui
[17:11]	xstorm Radek:	i hate to say this for i know i will get a lot of flack again but it be best if all support for the 1.x be drop and start to drop all LSL script too
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Right Morgaine, I think the viewer-2.0 UI will get more "optional" to the point of approaching 1.x UI
[17:11]	Alphonso Pidgeon:	Maybe have a classic mode on viewer 2?
[17:11]	Xugu Madison:	For everyone asking about C# scripting, Babbage's office hour logs are your best bet: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Babbage_Linden #Office_hour_logs
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	I hear people are already working on it in the open source codebase -- someone told me today at lunch.
[17:12]	Xugu Madison:	Oh, and can we please get icon labelling in viewer 2? Sidebar, this means you....
[17:12]	reddot99 Republic:	classic mode would be good, i'd like the windlight ui dropped onto 2.0
[17:12]	DrFran Babcock:	And free the Sidebar! Let it roam.
[17:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	The 1.x UI wasn't great, but the 2.0 made things a lot worse for many people. And it has nothing to do with acquaintance, simply to do with power and speed and visibility.
[17:12]	Chaley May:	i thought opensource are backporting features from viewer 2 rather than the other way
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	Xugo, tell the V2 folks (but I'm sure they've already heard that request -- doesn't hurt to repeat it).
[17:12]	xstorm Radek:	i like to see custom UI
[17:13]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, yeah, I should see if there's a JIRA yet..
[17:13]	Horrible Calamity:	I'd like the sidebar on the bottom of the screen
[17:13]	Horrible Calamity:	I like the concept, just not the placement
[17:13]	Chaley May:	i have thought the sidebar would be better places on the top or bottom
[17:13]	DrFran Babcock:	I'd like the sidebar to be docked where I want it, depending on what I am doing.
[17:13]	Xugu Madison:	I need to run. Will be back in 20, but scripting frantically before bed. Thanks for hosting Lindens, thanks for coming everyone else!
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... Chaley perhaps some are doing that -- seems like an eventual dead end, or a long term backport project.
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	It would seem easier to trick out the V2 UI
[17:13]	DrFran Babcock:	bye, Xugu
[17:13]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[17:13]	xstorm Radek:	so people that like how emarld looks can make viewer 2 look and feel like it
[17:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Horrible Calamity: that's some av name you have there ^_^
[17:13]	Wut Moorlord:	seeya Xugu
[17:14]	Gramma Fiddlesticks:	/me would love to pick the location for that sidebar!
[17:14]	Xugu Madison:	/me waves cheerily
[17:14]	Wut Moorlord:	/me afks to grab a sammich
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	I heard there was work to make the sidebar a detachable floater.
[17:14]	Horrible Calamity:	Why thank you ^_^
[17:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	:-)
[17:14]	Gramma Fiddlesticks:	Hot diggity!!!
[17:14]	Horrible Calamity:	I've had enough chances, I get banned every few months
[17:14]	DrFran Babcock:	yay, Andrew, that's what I want in the sidebar
[17:14]	Chaley May:	if they are detachable make sure the windows will be small
[17:14]	reddot99 Republic:	other thing is that the stuff in 2.0 fills a lot more of the screen, less room for huds, and the like
[17:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't know how to give an inventory object to a remote person.
[17:14]	Horrible Calamity:	Although I haven't been banned for awhile, since I snuck into the Linden World sim's
[17:14]	Horrible Calamity:	bad idea doing that and saying 'Boo!' right behind a Linden.
[17:14]	DrFran Babcock:	hehe
[17:15]	xstorm Radek:	or if some crazy person that liked how 2003 beta looked can make viwer 2 look like it
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, click+drag onto their profile in the UI
[17:15]	xstorm Radek:	;-)
[17:15]	Alphonso Pidgeon:	I think I'm on that viewer
[17:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	From where? I don't know how to see inventory and profile at the same time.
[17:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is this something I should be able to look up easily"?
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	oh hrm... you're talking about V2 right?
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	Ha! I don't know how to do it.
[17:16]	reddot99 Republic:	see, more issues
[17:16]	Horrible Calamity:	Is it just me, or has V2 hidden the collisions list?
[17:16]	DrFran Babcock:	it's about getting an IM tab opened for the person
[17:16]	Alphonso Pidgeon:	Thats realtime troubleshooting for ya
[17:16]	DrFran Babcock:	and slipping the inventory item in the IM window
[17:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	If there's a way to do it, some of us have been renoobed
[17:16]	xstorm Radek:	i may have to turn on Debug when i get on to aditi
[17:16]	Falcon Linden:	Arawn: Open another inventory window
[17:16]	DrFran Babcock:	yes, took me forever to figure out how to upload textures
[17:16]	Falcon Linden:	open the inventory and go to File|New Window
[17:16]	Falcon Linden:	Then you can use the sidebar for your profile
[17:17]	Alphonso Pidgeon:	and viewer 2 needs an altimeter. As a vehicle builder I rely on the altimeter on the top bar alot
[17:17]	Falcon Linden:	Okay, anyone here still need to be synced to the beta grid?
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	I've got to go now. See you all later.
[17:17]	reddot99 Republic:	also, was this simons secrer project for all those months?
[17:17]	reddot99 Republic:	secret rather
[17:17]	xstorm Radek:	laterz Andrew
[17:17]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[17:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	CyuAndrew
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	Simon's secret project was the "Linden Homes" project.
[17:17]	Horrible Calamity:	Bye Andrew
[17:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	thx for staing, Adnrew.
[17:17]	reddot99 Republic:	ah,
[17:17]	Falcon Linden:	Anyone?
[17:17]	DrFran Babcock:	Bye, Andrew
[17:17]	Falcon Linden:	Going once?
[17:17]	Alphonso Pidgeon:	Thanks all. Its been enlightening. I gotta split to
[17:18]	Horrible Calamity:	Who was the designer for that, btw?
[17:18]	Falcon Linden:	Going twice?
[17:18]	reddot99 Republic:	falcon, might have someone not here wantinga sync
[17:18]	Horrible Calamity:	Falcon
[17:18]	Rex Cronon:	what do u mean synched?
[17:18]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99 Ask them to message me
[17:18]	Horrible Calamity:	Can you sync Fractured Crystal?
[17:18]	DrFran Babcock:	got my geek fix for today :-)
[17:18]	Falcon Linden:	I'm not syncing people who aren't here since it whipes your inventory on the beta grid
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not sure who the designer was. Multiple people I think. Simon might know.
[17:18]	xstorm Radek:	Falcon do you think may be there can be a way i can get trendone online on Aditi ?
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Horrible, you want "Fractured Crystal" account synced to beta grid?
[17:19]	Eddi Decosta:	yay, other freez with No aux data available
[17:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sync Fractured Crystal gently, he probably doesn't want any more fractures ;-)
[17:19]	DrFran Babcock:	good night, all, and thanks for all the information
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	ok. i want to be "synched" too
[17:19]	Eddi Decosta:	i have found!!!!
[17:19]	Horrible Calamity:	Its okay Andrew, He's going to IM Oskar directly
[17:19]	Eddi Decosta:	YAY!
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, ask Oskar about getting trendone on aditi
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	i hope that doesn't means lynched:)
[17:19]	xstorm Radek:	ok :-)
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[17:20]	Falcon Linden:	Rex Cronon: IT means your inventory on the beta grid will be wiped and replaced by your current inventory, and other data about you will be synced to what's here
[17:20]	Gramma Fiddlesticks:	Andrew if someone is ghosted here on this sim, is there someone available to reboot the sim?
[17:20]	xstorm Radek:	i find the problem i think with the sim
[17:20]	Falcon Linden:	Rex Cronon: Done
[17:20]	reddot99 Republic:	also, problem i had with terrain raw data, it wouldnt open in gimp
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	Gamma, noone is available while the region has people in it.
[17:20]	Rex Cronon:	ok. cool. than i want that:)
[17:20]	Rex Cronon:	thanks:)
[17:21]	reddot99 Republic:	any suggestions?
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	The good news is that this region will restart whenever we try to re-pilot the server-1.38 deploy
[17:21]	Eddi Decosta:	im happy now! ㋡
[17:21]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[17:21]	Gramma Fiddlesticks:	sooh well. Sorry kaine lowenstark.
[17:21]	xstorm Radek:	hhhmmm did i just see a 5 min restsrt pop up ?
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	reddot99, the terrain data raw format has several channels -- 13 I think
[17:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	/me didn't see one
[17:22]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[17:22]	xstorm Radek:	;-)
[17:22]	reddot99 Republic:	wouldnt open in gimp,
[17:22]	Liisa Runo:	if my sim was updated to 1.38 last time, does it mean ti will be update again next time too? or is it random?
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	I seem to recall that gimp was unable to handle that number of raw channels, but it has been years since I heard that
[17:22]	Gramma Fiddlesticks:	bye everyoe.
[17:22]	xstorm Radek:	laterz every one and thank you
[17:22]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[17:23]	reddot99 Republic:	any suggestions that dont involve going out and buying photoshop?
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	oh right... I've go to go
[17:23]	Rex Cronon:	tc xstorm
[17:23]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[17:23]	Falcon Linden:	Au revoire, folks
[17:23]	xstorm Radek:	yep
[17:23]	reddot99 Republic:	see ya,
[17:23]	Eddi Decosta:	take care Andrew , sorry lol ㋡

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