User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 04 06

Transcript

[11:00]	Welcome to	Linden office hours
[11:00]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Andrew.
[11:00]	Phantom Ninetails:	I'll just take off the other shoe to make it even
[11:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hey Andrew
[11:00]	Kaluura Boa:	=^_^=
[11:00]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Simon
[11:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Heya Simon
[11:00]	Phantom Ninetails:	Greetings, Andrew
[11:00]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[11:00]	Kathy Swashbuckler:	Hello
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	Hello everyone
[11:01]	Ardy Lay:	I think this region is setting performance records today.
[11:01]	Kaluura Boa:	.
[11:01]	Memorial Dae:	I like it, im getting some good data from it.
[11:01]	Kathy Swashbuckler:	Hey Gramma
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	I'm giving Viewer2 another try today.
[11:01]	Phantom Ninetails:	Oh god
[11:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hehe
[11:02]	Phantom Ninetails:	You poor soul
[11:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'm on v2.0 - if you have any questions, feel free to ask :P I've been making a point of learning it.
[11:02]	Phantom Ninetails:	I'm getting alot of chat lag.
[11:02]	Kaluura Boa:	Poor you!
[11:02]	Memorial Dae:	I love v2 its awsome and great, and me saying that has nothing to do with Torley pointing a watermelon gun at my head.
[11:02]	Kaluura Boa:	Me... Chat laaaaaaag!
[11:02]	Kathy Swashbuckler:	Hi Kaine
[11:02]	s greeter	says: Hello Melchizedek, Kaine, Kathy, Phantom, Memorial, Suae, Opensource, Sebastean, Kaluura, Liisa, Chaley, Gramma, Andrew, Simon, Susie, and Ardy.
[11:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Memorial: Sticky
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	One thing I don't like about Viewer2 is that the chat log has a lot of wasted space for
[11:03]	Memorial Dae:	ha
[11:03]	Kaine Lowenstark:	Hey Kathy
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	for large group conversations
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	It's amazing (but probably not too surprising) at how polarized the opinions on viewer 2 are
[11:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew: You can change that in preferences.
[11:03]	Memorial Dae:	ok no more random chat business time
[11:03]	Gramma Fiddlesticks:	Hi kathy
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, I did a quick pass through the preferences
[11:03]	Phantom Ninetails:	Yeah, I too am surprised that anyone would LIKE the viewer
[11:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Me > Preferences > Chat > Enable Plain Text History
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	I made the chat small
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	hrm...
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	Right, plain format and small text packs it pretty well
[11:04]	Liisa Runo:	lets not talk about v2 today, it been ruining so many OH's for months, and still has bugs that been reported on alpha, talking dont fix it
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, much better. Thanks Sebastian.
[11:04]	Gramma Fiddlesticks:	.
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	er... Sebastean
[11:04]	Chaley May:	v2 is ideal for people who dont like to be on SL much
[11:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	No problem Andrew :) Most people do that lol. I would've spelled it that way myself if thename had been available.
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Well, it looks like I can live with v2. My main greivance can be preferred away.
[11:05]	Memorial Dae:	A good many can
[11:05]	Uni Ninetails:	what a line to tp into, hey folks
[11:05]	Kaine Lowenstark	does get sad at being told he is not a content creator, on SL much, an immersionist, and all the other reasons people make up as towhy someone in thier right mind would like 2.0
[11:05]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew: try setting permissions on multiple inventory assets sometime ;)
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Alright... announcements...
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	We don't yet have a fix for server-1.38
[11:06]	Phantom Ninetails:	Aw.
[11:06]	Memorial Dae	sighs
[11:07]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hmm, that's a pity, I was really looking forward to that this week.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	they're trying to figure out today when it will be fixed.
[11:07]	Memorial Dae:	The test we did in the sandbox were absolutely awsome
[11:07]	Kaine Lowenstark:	you can repro the bug now?
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't been paying much attention to that project. I've been finishing up my code cleanup project.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	No the bug repro is still intermitent.
[11:08]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	hmm
[11:08]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Which issue is the one holding it back?
[11:08]	Kaine Lowenstark:	and thats whats holding it up =/
[11:08]	Liisa Runo:	some 4 year old bugged scripts dont work in 1.38
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	There is a bug where sometimes MONO scripts don't successfully save to simstate or asset
[11:08]	Phantom Ninetails:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5600
[11:08]	Operation is	not valid due to the current state of the object
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	it is rare, and appears to be a bug in MONO that we're tickling now but weren't before.
[11:09]	Memorial Dae:	let me guess, llmakesmoke! :)
[11:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Intermittent...
[11:09]	Kaluura Boa:	=^_^=
[11:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Could it be related to functions used?
[11:09]	Kaluura Boa:	.
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know if there is any correlation with specific function calls.
[11:09]	Memorial Dae:	oh my
[11:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Specifically, something that's being tickled because of the new functions.
[11:09]	Uni Ninetails:	gah
[11:10]	Simon Linden:	I don't think so ... it's one of those bugs that works mostly, then occasionally fails even when using the same data
[11:10]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yeah, race condition.
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	Right, or some randomness that works most of the time
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	I think it is still a mystery. Race condition or shrodingbug? We don't know yet.
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway, the code cleanup I've been working on is really finished.
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Later this week I'll be back to fixing bugs
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	and trying to get some stuff into server-1.40
[11:12]	Phantom Ninetails:	Any of that code cleanup related to sensors?
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	I have some cleanup relating to sensors that is waiting for QA for a while now
[11:13]	Phantom Ninetails:	Alrighty then
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	the new cleanup has to do with how regions communicate with their neighbors
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	no new code, just cleanup
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	but hopefully it will make adding new code easier
[11:13]	Phantom Ninetails:	Ah
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	similarly the sensor cleanup didn't introduce any new features, just cleanup
[11:14]	Sebastean Steamweaver	notes that Melchizedek is not wearing his eyes avatar.
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	that's all I had for announcements
[11:14]	Liisa Runo:	list awesome = llGetSimulatorAgentKeys(SORT_BY_NAME);
[11:14]	Phantom Ninetails:	No problem
[11:15]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hey Fisher
[11:16]	Fisher Linden:	Hey
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-22 -- it is sorta what the region neighbor cleanup is supposed to make possible to fix
[11:16]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[11:17]	Kaluura Boa:	Wow! A revolution on the horizon...
[11:17]	Liisa Runo:	yea, will be cool
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	What was in sever-1.38 that everyone was looking forward to?
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	er... server-1.38
[11:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	llSetLinkPromitiveParamsFast
[11:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	llLinkParticle system
[11:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	llGetLinkPrimitiveparams
[11:18]	Simon Linden:	I think it also had some mono loading speedup
[11:18]	Opensource Obscure:	yay. and script memory size UI support in V2
[11:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	llLinkTextureAnim
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	oh right, the "efficient scripts" work that Babbage did.
[11:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	"PRIM_TEXT" for both get and set
[11:19]	Liisa Runo:	fast and text things were my favorites
[11:19]	Kaluura Boa:	Yeah... Exactly
[11:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	(PRIM_TEXT gets and sets float text)
[11:19]	Ardy Lay:	SVC-3895
[11:19]	Rezzing Mono	scripted object cripples sim FPS
[11:20]	Uni Ninetails:	aye
[11:20]	Phantom Ninetails:	the potential-partial fixes for the sim freezes were also pretty desirable.
[11:20]	Kaluura Boa:	.
[11:20]	Phantom Ninetails:	Yeah that.
[11:20]	Uni Ninetails:	hope of a marginally better sim crossing for vehicles so i can sail again without crying. :)
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	oh right. 'tis sad that it is currently in limbo
[11:21]	Memorial Dae:	yes 'tis
[11:21]	Phantom Ninetails:	.
[11:22]	Ardy Lay:	We have been suffering that for close to 14 months.
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean has a new LSL method he has proposed be added. What's the jira # for it Sebastean?
[11:23]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I did?
[11:23]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Which one?
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	The "uniform scaling" one.
[11:23]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, Simon, can you tell why chat is being delayed so significantly here today?
[11:24]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Oh, thta was proposed by BRandon Shinobu, but it's SVC-2885
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	Not really ... I'm not sure what's going on
[11:24]	Phantom Ninetails:	I thought it was just my problem.
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	That was quick for me
[11:24]	llSetObjectScale and	llGetObjectScale
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, well the status of SVC-2885 is that some LL dev's think it should be added, and some others do not.
[11:25]	Phantom Ninetails:	Wait, someone can possibly find a reason for it to be denied? It's already in the viewer
[11:25]	Uni Ninetails:	Ok i responded to Ardy and its still not come through. wow.
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	I had suggested to Sebastean that he organize some grass roots support for it.
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	I think if more people were asking for it, then we might be able to sway the opponents.
[11:26]	Kaine Lowenstark:	*voted*
[11:26]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'm happy to inform anyone on the details of the subject if they need.
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	The chat is not lagging for me, but I'm on a tight connection to our servers.
[11:26]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Actually, I should mention the subtask of it.
[11:26]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5522
[11:26]	for linkset	resizing
[11:27]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It's identical, but it's a subtask of the Efficient Scripts project
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	that suggests that the chat lag problem is not the simulator process or its host, but some network lag between the affected people and the SL servers.
[11:27]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	has been having "network" issues all morning! =
[11:27]	Alexia Leborski:	Its very laggy for me, too
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Ardy, what is your general ping time to the server?
[11:27]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew: according to Nexii, the viewer uses a single command to the server to resize linksets, and the server already does the work of resizing. Is that same operation something that could be linked to an LSL call?
[11:28]	Rex Cronon:	that would be true only if chat packets were send using UDP
[11:28]	Alexia Leborski:	not that minute but I was noticing the lag at other locations today
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Correct Sebastean. There is a single C++ path that can perform the uniform scale operation in a single call.
[11:28]	Uni Ninetails:	Seems widespread.... seeing mentions from a couple of groups. *shrugs mebbe a ratty router.
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	So the LSL call would be very easy to implement.
[11:29]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	And there'd be no more danger of lag than performing a resize by hand, with that reasoning.
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	However, I think Babbage's main objection is that the scaling can be done by more complicated LSL calls, so he doesn't want to clutter the LSL API any more than necessary.
[11:29]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, ICMP echo replies coming back in 78ms but 25% are getting lost.
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes. Packet loss can cause the same effect.
[11:30]	office hours	is half over
[11:30]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Phantom: Babbage believes that llSetLinkPPF/llGetLPP is sufficient, but you'll find the problems I found with that oulined in my comments to the JIRAs.
[11:30]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	The loop actually ends up requiring about 3-4 calls (depending on how you do it) per prim.
[11:30]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	function* calls
[11:31]	Ardy Lay:	"Ping Sim" = 113 msec
[11:31]	Ardy Lay:	Viewer is reporting 0.1% packet loss.
[11:31]	Ardy Lay:	So I guess it's upstream?
[11:32]	Phantom Ninetails:	It boggles the mind to think that someone believes the function isn't necessary.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Ardy, I suspect it is a network problem in the cloud rather than with LL servers, but I'm not certain.
[11:32]	Phantom Ninetails:	1.9% packet loss here
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	maybe some people think it only applies to a single prim and not to the whole linkset
[11:32]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Phantom: I would be very grateful if you could make it to Babbage's office hours tonight and help me convince him of that :)
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	There are some network scanning tools you could point at this simulator host...
[11:33]	Phantom Ninetails:	I would love to but my sleep hours just don't match up, sadly.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	sim8846.agni.lindenlab.com
[11:33]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Rex; I've made sure Babbage is clear on what it does ;)
[11:34]	Ardy Lay:	The problem seems to be large losses on xe-1-1-0.mpr4.phx2.us.above.net
[11:35]	Memorial Dae:	oh awsome, one of the yahoo mail pipes
[11:36]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Babbage's office hours are "tonight' at 3 AM - I'll be making it if I can, as well. I do believe it's a very valuable and reasonable request, and the JIRA itself has been around for... heh, almost two years.
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, have you had the discussion in his office hours yet? or only via email so far?
[11:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I've had the discussion with him personally at office hours on several occassions.
[11:37]	Kaine Lowenstark	wonders if he has a six am real timemorning in him
[11:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Including in lue of my research and work on creating a resizer.
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	too bad babbage doesn't want alternate using different OHs:(
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	How many people attend Babbage's office hours?
[11:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It can vary - sometimes 20-25 people
[11:38]	Chaley May:	are the sizes/link distance of prims limited by the server or the viewer?
[11:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Sometimes it's more sparse, around 10.
[11:38]	Liisa Runo:	usually about 20
[11:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Chaley: by the server - otherwise it would be too easy to create megaprims.
[11:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Possibly by both.
[11:38]	Chaley May:	ok
[11:39]	Kaine Lowenstark:	the m word O_O
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Oh really? Good to know he can get that many attendees despite being disagreeable with US hours.
[11:39]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Chaley: the server already does all the work when you resize manually with the viewer - the same server code can be invoked by an LSL call, it's just that LSL function doesn't exist yet.
[11:40]	Phantom Ninetails:	Second chat message I've completely lost trying to send, now.
[11:40]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	As Andrew said, and has Babbage has told me himself, he doesn't want to "complicate the API" by creating llSet/GetObjectScale in favor of using a loop with llSetLinkPPF/llGetLPP
[11:40]	Chaley May:	even when scaling on the viewer?
[11:40]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yes Chaley, even when scaling on the viewer.
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	I think the viewer-->server chat messages still go over our unreliable UDP message system, so it is possible for a message to get truly lost when there is significant packet loss
[11:41]	Phantom Ninetails:	ah.
[11:41]	Phantom Ninetails:	That's probably what happened then.
[11:42]	Chaley May:	now if they removed the limits for link distance and size it would be a lot easier to make the script :)
[11:42]	Chaley May:	wouldnt need to check
[11:42]	Gramma Fiddlesticks:	Gramma Fiddlesticks
[11:42]	Chaley May:	maybe thats why they dont want to work on it because mega prims should return lol
[11:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	That would be nice, but I think there will always be a limit of some kind.
[11:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	However, remember, this is dealing with linksets, not single prims.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	There has to be a limit. Infinity just doesn't compute well.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	At least, not with floating point numbers.
[11:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	They might remove the size limit on prims, or heighten it, but that doesn't mean that they will expand linkability for linksets.
[11:44]	Chaley May:	yeah i know but a limit doesnt need to be as complicated as the system we have now
[11:44]	Memorial Dae:	I agree with Sebastion on those ideas
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	i think it would be a lot faster to have lsl function that does the scalling, rather than have a loop:)
[11:44]	Kaluura Boa:	10m is really too small
[11:44]	Uni Ninetails:	50m 4tw!
[11:44]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Rex: faster, and much afer
[11:44]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	You can find the issues with a loop on my JIRA comment
[11:44]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	safe*
[11:44]	Liisa Runo:	DEBUG_CHANNEL limit for prim size is nice round number
[11:44]	Phantom Ninetails:	^
[11:45]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5328?focusedCommentId=174389&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel #action_174389
[11:45]	llSetObjectScale and	llGetObjectScale
[11:45]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	(Permalink to my comment)
[11:45]	Kaine Lowenstark:	asmuch as Ilove LL, the 10m limit means that I can use hundreds of thousands of extra verticies that I could do in eight
[11:45]	Chaley May:	resizing things would be so much easier if they relaxed these limits and i think llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast() would work great without needing to collect so much infos
[11:46]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Chaley: You will always have to collect info unless it's pre-recorded. You have to in order to scale proportionally.
[11:46]	Chaley May:	well all you would need is to know the bounding box
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Chaley May is asking for megaprims. I think megaprims will eventually become available... the only question is how long is it going to take?
[11:46]	Chaley May:	and make sure the scale doesnt go too bigger than a limit for that
[11:46]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Difference between script and server: the server already knows the info, the script has to request it.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	(escpecially since I've been talkinga about megaprims for at least three years now)
[11:47]	Simon Linden:	I'm sure there will be a few more questions than one :)
[11:47]	Kaine Lowenstark:	Anyone know how the 10m limit andmesh will work out?
[11:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Chaley: in resizing, both size, and relative position, need to be scaled.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Kaine, the LL developers working on mesh want to enable mega meshes.
[11:47]	Rex Cronon:	u need to use vector operations when u scale manually
[11:47]	Chaley May:	yes but the scaling of a bounding box is esily calculated when increasing scale
[11:47]	Uni Ninetails:	nods...Cough cough titanic cough cough
[11:47]	Kaine Lowenstark:	Tell them I love them QQ
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	So the heat on the megaprims issue will rise very soon.
[11:48]	Kaine Lowenstark:	Modelling something like the eiffel ( spelling fail ) tower and then have a 10m limit would be... disappointing
[11:48]	Liisa Runo:	lol, you said soon :P
[11:48]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Chaley: I think we're misunderstanding each other somewhere.
[11:48]	Chaley May:	maybe :)
[11:48]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Prim size limit is one thing - linkability is another issue entirely, and is impossible to calculate via script.
[11:49]	Chaley May:	i would relax link limits too
[11:49]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Not to mention the 10m limit on PRIM_POSITION
[11:49]	Chaley May:	i mean link distance
[11:49]	Kaluura Boa:	btw, where did PRIM_POS_JUMP go?
[11:50]	Kaluura Boa:	.
[11:50]	Ardy Lay:	I seem to have been rerouted now.
[11:50]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Larger limits on linkability would be nice, but I don't believe that will necessarily change with prim sizes. We have megaprims now, and I'm pretty sure that was taken into account when the new linkability rules were put in place.
[11:50]	Kaine Lowenstark:	Now if those limits were expanded, wouldnt LL have to find a new way to automatically deal with encroachment?
[11:50]	Memorial Dae:	Tickets work fine
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Yes. Megaprims depend on fixing prim encroachment.
[11:50]	Uni Ninetails:	any progress on encroachment?
[11:50]	Kaine Lowenstark:	kk
[11:50]	Kaine Lowenstark:	the larger the link limits the farther you can buildon land you do not own
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Prim encroachment depends on fixed region boundaries
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	in particular: (1) collision across region boundaries
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	and (2) Knowledge about parcel permissions across region boundaries
[11:51]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Kaine: I'm not sure that's much different from having a single prim encroach. To my logic, they'd probably both be treated as "objects" that needed to be returned. The amount of encroachment will just vary.
[11:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	Allow eighboing regions to have bounding boxes?
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-22 also pertains to parcel permissions across region boundaries
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	The region you're in needs to know the permissions of the parcels outside its borders
[11:52]	Liisa Runo:	megaprims dealying with encroachment excuse is not very cool, normal prims can already encroach about 60meters
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	In order for the region to know about neighboring parcel permissions it needs to trade some new packets of information
[11:52]	Chaley May:	link distance limits are less of an issue for encroachment in most cases.. i mean we dont really want to waste a prim on others land.. its mega prims which was always the main issue
[11:53]	Kaine Lowenstark:	for the love of god wipe it from the record if it delays megaprims D:
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	which means new code needs to be added to the region neighbor communication system
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	but the neighbor communciation system is a mess
[11:53]	Simon Linden:	Megaprims will make the problem worse, but you're right that it's not a new problem
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	so we first have to clean it up
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	which is what I've been doing lately.
[11:53]	Chaley May:	objects should know if they overlap parcels
[11:53]	Phantom Ninetails:	I'd love cross-border collisions.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	so as you can see... I'm really working on megaprims in a roundabout way
[11:53]	Uni Ninetails:	so your laying the groundwork andrew?
[11:53]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Simon: I just wouldn't agree with the "will" - megaprims are easy for anyone to get. I wouldn't be surprised if most people have them in their inventory. Allowing megaprims would just enable people to make more specific sizes.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	yup
[11:54]	Kaine Lowenstark:	lol sever 1.41: Megaprims ! XD
[11:54]	Opensource Obscure:	trivia: various megaprims made by residents are currently being used in new LL public welcome islands
[11:54]	Uni Ninetails:	coolness *sends positivewaves your way
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	Code Cleanup also touches on SVC-93, just to work that in
[11:54]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[11:54]	Chaley May:	anyway i sort of like theability to create islands on void area
[11:54]	Liisa Runo:	also megaprims are not new, we already have plenty
[11:54]	Kaine Lowenstark:	and some of the megas we have are ridunculous
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	Megaprims in Welcome Areas?
[11:54]	Uni Ninetails:	yup
[11:54]	Uni Ninetails:	sculpted too
[11:54]	Kaine Lowenstark:	like the 65535 by 65535 by one
[11:54]	Opensource Obscure:	arawn: new users rez inside a 50x50x50 sphere ; )
[11:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	Linden Land?
[11:55]	office hours	is almost over
[11:55]	Chaley May:	today i was visiting a sim surrounded by megaprim mountains.. i thought it looked amazing
[11:55]	Kaluura Boa:	=^_^= This situation is becoming ridiculous...
[11:55]	Opensource Obscure:	arawn: the ones just blogged on the official SL blog
[11:55]	Les White:	been doing that for years :)
[11:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	However, I can understand why LL couldn't officially support them until encroachment is solved because someone wanting to to blame somebody would say, "You supported these before this was fixed, therefor it's your fault!"
[11:55]	Uni Ninetails:	agroo?
[11:55]	Kaine Lowenstark:	Aggro'smega mountains are breathtaking
[11:55]	Rex Cronon:	i have boxes of megaprims. sadly their size can't be changed:( at least allow scripts to change their size
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	yes, megaprims are also used for "distant horizon" effects
[11:55]	Opensource Obscure:	Aggro is a great example indeed.
[11:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Oh, Andrew, that reminds me.
[11:56]	Kaine Lowenstark:	we also used megas for large skyboxes for skies and oceans
[11:56]	Uni Ninetails:	EM vehicles does it for 2 sims having islands around them in the extreme distance
[11:56]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I wanted to ask about an idea I had - prim-face "skyboxing"
[11:56]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	The ability to apply a texture to a prim face, and set a 'distance" for it to be rendered at within the bounds of the prim face, so you could create effects such as looking through a window, or being in space in a sphere.
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	where skybox is used to show the distant horizon (not a skybox for hanging out in semi-privacy)
[11:57]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Simulated parallax
[11:57]	Kaine Lowenstark:	Id literally have 11-12 thousand items cleared that are just megas with hundreds of different small size changes
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... you want a skybox hack that is local but looks global
[11:57]	Kaine Lowenstark:	megas are second only to textures for inv space
[11:57]	Uni Ninetails:	salthud 4tw
[11:58]	Opensource Obscure:	what Uni said. no need to keep them in the inventory!
[11:58]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yes Andrew, something where you can effectively make something look like it's larger onthe inside than it is on the outside, or even just for window effects. It would reduce a lot of megaprim encroachment issues as well, since many people use them for that specific effect.
[11:58]	Kaine Lowenstark:	lol i use primsearch but I never delete after
[11:58]	Phantom Ninetails:	https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/2008-May/009727.html
[11:58]	Phantom Ninetails:	(4) Add a feature that allows Estate/Region owners to set void, distant horizon, and cloud layers/textures (to eliminate the
[11:58]	Kaine Lowenstark:	hmm chat lag finally caught me, and I was doing well D:
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, that would be mostly a viewer-hack. The server whould just have to set a bit.
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	So a local skybox effect would be easy to implement server-side
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	however I wonder if the veiwer group would want to add the hack
[11:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	But uncertain of what it would take on the viewer?
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	you'd have to ask them
[11:59]	Uni Ninetails:	implement it AFTER region windlight ty.
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	BRB...
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, the region-windlight feature will make megaprim skyboxes less useful
[11:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'll have to suggeset it at Nyx's office hours tomorrow.
[12:00]	Thank you	for coming to Linden office hours
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	however the region-windlight project doesn't provide what Sebastean is asking for...
[12:00]	Uni Ninetails:	its a start
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler	wonders what Region Windlight is; probably something to entertain those, who think computers are for videogaming
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	unless it provided multiple skyboxes -- depending on where you were located.
[12:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Well, my feature suggestion is more geared toward smaller builds.
[12:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Let's say, the skyboxes (the prim house kind) where you walk in and they have a prim outside the windows with various landscapes to try and give a parallax effect.
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	unfortunately I have to head out at noon
[12:01]	Kaine Lowenstark:	Windlight allows minute control of the environment upon which the models of Secondlife re displayed. Its useless to anyone but photographers NOW, but setting it server side in a region would be incredible
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	so I'll see you all later
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	thanks for attending
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Could also be used for Apple Wood Closets.
[12:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Thank you for the hours Andrew, I appreciate it
[12:01]	Uni Ninetails:	nah region windligh lets people who spend hours making a scene or estate set look that bit moer special :P~
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[12:01]	Chaley May:	cya :)
[12:01]	Les White:	later andrew
[12:01]	Phantom Ninetails:	Fare well, Andrew
[12:01]	Uni Ninetails:	bai!
[12:02]	Cerdita Piek:	Thank you Andrew, Simon, take care :)
[12:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Thank you also Simon, and Fisher
[12:02]	Gramma Fiddlesticks:	thanks Andrew and Simon.
[12:02]	Kaine Lowenstark:	Also would let baked shadows be done more predictably
[12:02]	Kaine Lowenstark:	until the day everyone can use deferred rendering
[12:02]	Kaine Lowenstark:	Thank you Andrea and Simon ^^
[12:02]	Gramma Fiddlesticks:	.
[12:03]	Memorial Dae:	Thanks
[12:03]	Kaine Lowenstark	shouts: Can we get the standup = flying eject bug worked on btw
[12:03]	Kaluura Boa:	=^_^=
[12:03]	Memorial Dae:	WeeeeEEeee
[12:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	"Do not press the red button!"
[12:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is that borked again?
[12:04]	Kaine Lowenstark:	Apparently I just flew into the water
[12:04]	Liisa Runo:	no, nothing in v2 gets fixed untill we talk about the same bugs for atleast 33months
[12:04]	Kaluura Boa:	Liisa, finish your sentence... I'm waiting... Food time!
[12:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Just set me flying
[12:04]	Kaluura Boa:	.
[12:04]	Memorial Dae:	Flying = good
[12:05]	Kaluura Boa:	.
[12:05]	Kaluura Boa:	OK... My AV refuses to stop talking... Time to put it at rest...
[12:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	This chair doesn't seem to be in the southeast?
[12:06]	Kaine Lowenstark:	land XD
[12:06]	Kaluura Boa:	Laters everybody... Foooooood!
[12:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Might be nice, if the home key stood us.
[12:06]	Kaine Lowenstark:	bb
[12:06]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'll see (some of) you at Babbage's OH tonight ;)
[12:06]	Simon Linden:	finally back ... thanks all, see you next time

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