User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 04 09

Transcript

[15:58]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Simon
[15:58]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[15:58]	Rex Cronon:	hi simon
[15:58]	Chaley May:	hello
[15:58]	Ardy Lay:	Your Adirondack Chairs are listing badly so I provided my own seating.
[15:59]	Xugu Madison:	hey Simon, Liisa!
[15:59]	Simon Linden:	Theatre seating is nice :)
[15:59]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[16:00]	Liisa Runo	whispers: hi all
[16:00]	Rex Cronon:	hi lissa
[16:00]	Ardy Lay:	I was gonna build a bus stations then decided I don't like vehicles anyway.
[16:00]	Rex Cronon:	liisa*
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nice to see you Simon. :-) The other 4 tech Lindens didn't turn up at their respective OHs today. :-(
[16:01]	Simon Linden:	Today we're having our quarterly review day, so they might be off doing something different
[16:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hi Simon :)
[16:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Quarterly review?
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Andrew :-)
[16:02]	Andrew Linden:	Hello
[16:02]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Andrew
[16:02]	Rex Cronon:	their performance is evaluated
[16:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Heya Andrew
[16:02]	Xugu Madison:	hey Andrew!
[16:02]	Simon Linden:	The company has a review day every 3 months ... we go over what we've done, make plans, etc
[16:02]	Chaley May:	hi Andrew :)
[16:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[16:03]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, today is review day.
[16:03]	Opensource Obscure:	hello pixel people
[16:03]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[16:03]	Rex Cronon:	os
[16:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	We are the people of Pixel. Also known as Pixies.
[16:03]	Opensource Obscure:	o/ yay pixies
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's Aimee
[16:04]	Xugu Madison	idly affixes gold stars to the Lindens... "Review... done!"
[16:04]	Rex Cronon:	soory i an no pixie
[16:04]	Andrew Linden:	I'm sup
[16:04]	Andrew Linden:	oops, ignore that
[16:04]	Rex Cronon:	i am mr vertex;)
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	I've made the transition over to Viewer2
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	it works great on Linux for me
[16:05]	Simon Linden:	I don't have any announcements today ... been working on the back-end data storage code still
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	it properly detects my USB audio, so voice works on Linux now (for me).
[16:05]	Simon Linden:	Trying to make the system smarter and share data between simulators onthe same server
[16:05]	Opensource Obscure:	same thing for me re: voice on Linux working at last.
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew or Simon, is there a Linden or a dev team with responsibility for group IM?
[16:06]	xstorm Radek:	OMG!! yhis sim is lagy
[16:06]	Andrew Linden:	Skype also works great on Linux (Ubuntu, specifically) so I now have almost no reason to use Windows.
[16:06]	Andrew Linden:	The last reason is to make sure I didn't break the Windows build of our codebase.
[16:06]	Patty1 Rosca:	hope i didnt rez on someones head
[16:06]	xstorm Radek:	if i remember right the new owners of Skype may wish to sale it
[16:06]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, has a new skin.
[16:07]	Opensource Obscure:	you're fine Patty : )
[16:07]	Patty1 Rosca:	ty open
[16:07]	xstorm Radek:	no your ok my sweet love
[16:07]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, there sorta is a team who "owns" group IM...
[16:07]	Opensource Obscure:	omg true, Andrew is 'new' !
[16:07]	Andrew Linden:	(yeah, someone handed me a bunch of free skins because they heard I needed some)
[16:07]	Jonathan Yap:	Merov has been putting a lot of time in recently to get builds to work again
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew/Simon --- the reason I asked is because I'm wondering whether group IM has fallen between stools.
[16:07]	Andrew Linden:	(with only 8 min to look through the skins this is the closest I could find for what I wanted)
[16:08]	Andrew Linden:	(I'll look again later)
[16:08]	Youri Ashton:	hello, running a little late :p
[16:08]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hehe, Andrew, it looks great :) I just noticed you were darker than usual.
[16:08]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[16:08]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, there is this particular group IM bug -- message failure for very large groups
[16:08]	Rex Cronon:	maybe he spent tooo much time in the sun:)
[16:09]	Andrew Linden:	that the team knows about but are not tackling yet
[16:09]	Andrew Linden:	I need to review the reasons why they are punting that work. I'm not sure what the issue is.
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	I like your new skin Andrew, it looks confident. Although also looks mean, which I don't like.
[16:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Mean?
[16:09]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew i have not tested sculptys yet on havok 7 or on a class 7 sim will our sim physics go bad if we have to many sculptys ?
[16:09]	Andrew Linden:	but group IM goes through our "data services" system, no longer through the simulator
[16:10]	Rex Cronon:	i would like to bring to your attention folks the following: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2670
[16:10]	Checks if	an object or agent is active in a specified group.
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Mean as in "not friendly"
[16:10]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Ahh, I figured it was just serious.
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Maybe raise the eyebrows a little :-)
[16:10]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I tried to make my avatar look mean originally. Mostly because I was trying to make it something close to my opposite
[16:10]	Xugu Madison:	Class 7 sim? I'm still trying to wring info on class 6 from people!
[16:10]	Youri Ashton:	many sculpties now already cause extra lag, so it may indeed happen on havok 7 as well
[16:10]	Andrew Linden:	a long time ago
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[16:11]	Liisa Runo:	i think we should just allow llObjectDetails to show the group of an angent
[16:11]	Jonathan Yap:	Was there ever a class 6 sim? I thought they went from 5 to 7
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well it's good that you have facial features now :-)
[16:11]	Liisa Runo:	agent*
[16:11]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't had time yet to tweak it. Maybe by next week.
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Viciity lag
[16:11]	Xugu Madison	prods the Lindens "Sim classes, anything you can tell us? :)"
[16:11]	xstorm Radek:	?? some one had a class 6 sim ?
[16:12]	Youri Ashton:	no x, class 6 never was in sl
[16:12]	Andrew Linden:	I think class-6 was some hardware that we evaluated but did not get
[16:12]	Youri Ashton:	or.. for residents at least...
[16:12]	Xugu Madison:	Oh no. I think I've started a rumour. By next week, people will be asking to move the class 8 sims
[16:12]	xstorm Radek:	oh ok did not think so
[16:12]	Simon Linden:	The 7s are nice - 24GB of RAM, 8 cores, I think
[16:12]	Youri Ashton:	see :p
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon's face is friendly :-)
[16:12]	Xugu Madison:	Simon; 8 regions per server?
[16:13]	Simon Linden:	Yes, they're running 8
[16:13]	xstorm Radek:	yes our class 7 sim helps do to all the sculpty work and physics we run
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ooh, 24G is nice
[16:13]	Youri Ashton:	think LL is doing good to jump from 5 to 7, it just makes a big leap forward. hopefully it kills also a little lag in the process as well
[16:13]	xstorm Radek:	but we need a better server software that 1.8 is trash
[16:13]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Rex: llMatchGroup is actually attached to the MISC-3077 JIRA.
[16:13]	Xugu Madison	nods "24G between 8 sims is a nice step forward from... what, 4 for 4?"
[16:13]	List of	Linden-Confirmed Easy Changes/Additions With Large Returns
[16:14]	Simon Linden:	Yes, there's more RAM per region now and they do run better
[16:15]	Andrew Linden:	Weren't we going to go to only 7 regions for 8 cores, and leave a core for some of the other services?
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova	checks RAM prices
[16:15]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Heh, that's a fantastic idea actually. It gives some wiggle room for the regions.
[16:15]	Andrew Linden:	We're gradually moving stuff out of the simulator code and into other processes
[16:15]	Youri Ashton:	sounds we will be having a better SL world then andrew
[16:16]	Youri Ashton:	sounds positive as i hear it
[16:16]	xstorm Radek:	what about sim crossing will that be better like it is on the test server with havok 7 on the server 2 ver ?
[16:16]	Xugu Madison:	Yes! I heard the sims are finally getting properly threaded. How's that going?
[16:16]	Chaley May:	yes its a great idea but then the thought of profit replaces that idea :)
[16:16]	Andrew Linden:	so I heard someone say that we would probably spare a core for the other processes
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Are the sims LOCKED to particular CPUs?
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	I mean cores
[16:17]	Simon Linden:	Regions are mapped into a class of servers
[16:17]	Simon Linden:	But if you restart, it typically will come up on another server
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not sure how the processes are flagged for specific cores.
[16:17]	xstorm Radek:	ooopppssss hold on people did know about the server 2 software ?
[16:17]	Simon Linden:	They aren't locked to a CPU on the machine, we let the OS sort out the multitasking
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Not sure how affinity works on Linux.
[16:18]	Andrew Linden:	But does the linux OS migrate processes from one core to another? I didn't think that it would do that.
[16:18]	Chaley May:	is it quicker for the sim to restart on another server than staying on the same?
[16:19]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure .... I remember a bunch of discussion on it, and we decided we weren't smarter than the OS
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	But since you're selling CPU time, scheduling all 8 sims across all 8 cores means means that lightly loaded sims subsidize the heavy users.
[16:19]	Andrew Linden:	It is faster for a region to come back up on the same machine.
[16:19]	xstorm Radek:	ok if people was not to know about the server 2.x then for get i did say any thing
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Unless you use affinity controls.
[16:20]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't heard anything about a server2.x.
[16:20]	xstorm Radek:	but the havok 7 is great
[16:20]	Xugu Madison	still thinks you should have one thread per avatar, so that if someone swamps the sim with scripts they get lagged first :)
[16:20]	Andrew Linden:	We've debated over the years if we would ever attempt a major rewrite of the server code, a 2.X server.
[16:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	Eight Core Machines don't have eight CPUs?
[16:20]	Andrew Linden:	Last I heard the consensus was that incremental overhaul was still the most likely best path forward.
[16:20]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew: there've been rumors that "server 2.0" is what Zero has been working on all this time.
[16:21]	Jonathan Yap:	I am not familiar with current core CPUS--can any core perform I/O to disk, network, etc? In the old days that used to be an issue.
[16:21]	Xugu Madison:	Arawn, I believe you can do 8 cores in 1 chip, and definitely in 2
[16:21]	Andrew Linden:	Well, Zero certainly isn't coding server2 yet, but he may be working on the protocol for it
[16:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought he was working on Open Grid?
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Presumably Zero's "sekrit project for SL 3-5 years ahead" is for sim 2.0. One assumes, since he works on infrastructure.
[16:22]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew you need to get on to aditi and see oatmeal 6
[16:22]	Andrew Linden:	Jonathan, I believe multi-core OS's are rather symmetric for core... as far as disk IO and network, etc.
[16:22]	Rex Cronon:	btw andrew. i know that u recently returned from vacation, and i supposed u spent some time in the sun, so i thought that is why u changed your skin color. my little joke was by no means an racial joke, or an attempt at one. if i offended u i appologize
[16:22]	Xugu Madison:	Oatmeal 6 is 1.36 with H7, and will be 1.40 when it goes live. Not 2.
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: have a good vacation? :-)
[16:22]	Andrew Linden:	no worries Rex. Yeah, someone dropped a box of skins on me. I'm trying one out today
[16:22]	Andrew Linden:	but changed into it right before this meeting
[16:22]	xstorm Radek:	????
[16:23]	Jonathan Yap:	Opensource, was that video I heard about yesterday done on one of the Oatmeal regions?
[16:23]	Opensource Obscure:	yeah jonathan
[16:23]	xstorm Radek:	his skin looks the same to me
[16:23]	Opensource Obscure:	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KBqJs0YtOc
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[16:23]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, wasn't that Opensource's video? Falcon sent me the link to the NWN article and I wathed it.
[16:23]	Opensource Obscure:	that was Oatmeal 6
[16:23]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	My mental image-diff software said, "Oop! Somethin's changed!"
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	Very nicely done. Good video capture frame rate and nice lighting effects.
[16:24]	Simon Linden:	Your AV rendering cost is now 100x what it used to be
[16:24]	Opensource Obscure:	i'm running Linux, for the record
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	I always crank my render prefs to low quality because I prefer high framerate and cool laptops.
[16:24]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I was really impressed with that video.
[16:24]	Ardy Lay:	Simon, ARC formula changes with Viewer 2.0.
[16:24]	Opensource Obscure:	I wonder how much it depended on the sim being empty. i guess a lot
[16:25]	Jonathan Yap:	I was impressed too, also by the good camera movements
[16:25]	Xugu Madison	nods, and was impressed with the video too
[16:25]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	My family jokes that I have a private heating system in my room, because of my desktop.
[16:25]	xstorm Radek:	i did rez 90000 prims with no lag
[16:25]	Opensource Obscure:	Spacenavigator FTW!
[16:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	Desktop should be less effective, than a 250 watt heater
[16:25]	Andrew Linden:	did you say 90k prims?
[16:25]	Ardy Lay:	90,000?
[16:25]	Opensource Obscure:	how many temporary prims can a sim currently rez at once? wasn't 500 that limit?
[16:25]	Andrew Linden	does not believe it.
[16:25]	xstorm Radek:	all set to physic and drop
[16:25]	xstorm Radek:	yes 90k
[16:26]	Rex Cronon:	i have a loptop. and when i run sl, it is quite effective at warming up the room:)
[16:26]	Andrew Linden:	temp-on-rez is full parcel limit + at least 500, I think.
[16:26]	Opensource Obscure:	if you look at statistics bar in the video, you see 900~ Active Objects
[16:26]	xstorm Radek:	thats why i say you need to see oatmeal 6 for your self
[16:26]	Youri Ashton:	a regular prim doesnt lag as much, unless it is moving or being moved, same counts for multiple prims
[16:26]	Opensource Obscure:	oh the wiki says "andrew says .. Max. number of temporary prims - regular_prim_limit - current_regular_prims + minimum(0.5 * regular_prim_limit + 400, 1000) "
[16:26]	Andrew Linden:	more if the parcel is bigger, up to 1k... I think
[16:27]	Andrew Linden:	ah yes, that looks like the formula I remember
[16:27]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It's possible that if the rezzes were incrememntal, cleanup was done on some of the existing prims as more were rezzed.
[16:27]	xstorm Radek:	i have a gift for you lol a 991 prim building
[16:27]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:27]	Opensource Obscure:	there were 1,2, then 4 incr. rezzers running during the video IIRC
[16:27]	Youri Ashton:	I work usually on huge very detailled buildings with easily 2k prims and above without problems of it giving lag
[16:28]	Youri Ashton:	rezzing and de-rezzing may give a few seconds of extra lag, but thats all
[16:28]	Opensource Obscure:	(no - it's 2 rezzers from the start)
[16:28]	Andrew Linden:	Falcon was showing me today a region that had so many dynamic objects that the physics timestep was 3 seconds
[16:28]	Youri Ashton:	lol
[16:28]	Andrew Linden:	he said that it would have crashed in havok4 but just comes to a crawl in havok7
[16:29]	Andrew Linden:	we had the same problem with the Havok1 to Havok4 transition
[16:29]	Xugu Madison:	Ah yes. If at first you don't succeed, melt the server instead.
[16:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	At some point, you're better off crashing, so people can log back on
[16:29]	Youri Ashton:	a newer version is usually better andrew :p
[16:29]	Andrew Linden:	some content that would crash the region and recover in relatively short order would slow havok4 down forever
[16:29]	xstorm Radek:	i have never seen havok 4 ever come close to running like Havok 7 can
[16:29]	Youri Ashton:	its the evolution of a engine that makes it better, but still far from perfect
[16:29]	Andrew Linden:	so we added our "Runtime Collision Control System" (RCCS) which disables some objects when under load to help keep the system usable
[16:30]	xstorm Radek:	and i was told to crash oatmeal 6 lol
[16:30]	Andrew Linden:	yup, Falcon has been very happy with all the stress test help he's been getting
[16:30]	xstorm Radek:	all it did was slow my user side down a little
[16:30]	Xugu Madison:	Only issue I've seen with Havok 7 is that if you cross sims underwater in a ground vehicle, you can fall out the sim. That's perhaps not the world's most frequent scenario, though....
[16:31]	Opensource Obscure:	it's sad to see RCCS in action.
[16:31]	Xugu Madison:	(only outstanding issue)
[16:31]	Opensource Obscure:	:)
[16:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've traveled north of purple, on a choo-choo
[16:31]	Youri Ashton:	the same goes for all havok engines andrew
[16:31]	Youri Ashton:	that bug never really got fixed
[16:31]	xstorm Radek:	oh and the best news is them temp rezzers no longer lag a sim
[16:31]	Youri Ashton:	its a clipping error mixed with sim lines
[16:31]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, I wonder if the water has anything to do with that ... ground level definitely does, but the water really doesn't do much in SL
[16:31]	Opensource Obscure:	what about the distance between colliding objects? in Oatmeal 6, the behaviour is the same than usual - see
[16:32]	Sebastean Steamweaver	hopes for the day when water can affect movement.
[16:32]	Xugu Madison:	Simon; I suspect it's really being near 0m altitude that's key...
[16:32]	Youri Ashton:	it isnt just the water for that matter, but also on land
[16:32]	Simon Linden:	yeah, it would be nice to make water more realistic
[16:32]	Andrew Linden:	Youri, you're referring to the momentary lag (blocking) on rez/derez?
[16:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	My Ivory Soap has always floated, and I wonder why.
[16:32]	Youri Ashton:	vehicles appear to "dive" into the neighboring landmass
[16:32]	Simon Linden:	It's probably only one prim, Arawn
[16:32]	Youri Ashton:	not entirely andrew
[16:32]	Andrew Linden:	ah, falling vehicles on region crossing
[16:33]	Youri Ashton:	i really mean vehicles dissapearing (while moving) into the ground
[16:33]	Youri Ashton:	and not just during sim crossings
[16:33]	Andrew Linden:	and if they fall around z=0 meters into negative z then bad things can happen, yes
[16:33]	Youri Ashton:	its a bug that is still in there and never really got fixed as i said
[16:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	One prim, with a driver, but setting byoyancy to one, I recall, makes it float at water height, and is much better than hovering.
[16:33]	Andrew Linden:	I'll keep an eye out for that bug. I'm going to be trying to work on region crossings next week.
[16:34]	Youri Ashton:	i do have to say that this problem in combination with a sim line makes double trouble
[16:34]	Youri Ashton:	and you end up like xstorm often had :p
[16:34]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew; I'd be tempted to just a having a "If z < 0 ; teleportToAboveWaterLevel()"
[16:34]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:34]	Youri Ashton:	xstorm, have the pics still?
[16:34]	Youri Ashton:	if so, show em :p
[16:34]	Simon Linden:	I found that the viewer's prediction code is really simple ... some folks on the viewer team are looking into that
[16:34]	Opensource Obscure:	what about the distance between colliding objects? in Oatmeal 6, the behaviour is the same than usual
[16:35]	xstorm Radek:	not any more them are old bugs
[16:35]	Opensource Obscure:	...can it be improved?
[16:35]	Arawn Spitteler	shudders at the mention of a simple code
[16:35]	Xugu Madison	nods to Simon "Nothing wrong with that, as long as the server can fix the mess later..."
[16:35]	Youri Ashton:	old bugs that never get fixed... or at least LL never really notices themselfs due to newer engines etc
[16:35]	Andrew Linden:	Opensource, the "gap between collisions" can be improved, yes. Falcon has been thinking about that.
[16:35]	Opensource Obscure:	cool cool cool
[16:36]	Youri Ashton:	LL is pushing often too hard towards new stuff instead of fixing what is already known
[16:36]	Andrew Linden:	However, I wonder if it will every be fully fixable -- I'm guessing there is some content that "relies" on it, unfortunately.
[16:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	Known Issue
[16:36]	Xugu Madison	thinks LL can't win...
[16:36]	Youri Ashton:	lol
[16:36]	Andrew Linden:	That is, if they've worked around the collision gap already, then if we were to "fix" it then the workaround content would break
[16:37]	Andrew Linden:	anyway, the collision gap existence might be different under mesh
[16:37]	Opensource Obscure:	yeah...
[16:37]	Arawn Spitteler	doesn't recall such regard for SVC-2931
[16:37]	llSetLinkPrimitiveParams content	breakage, only moves agents 54 meters now
[16:37]	Andrew Linden:	Falcon knows some of the details there.
[16:37]	Youri Ashton:	it happens with avitars on themselfs as well andrew
[16:37]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks. i'll ask him in Preview server office hours
[16:37]	Jonathan Yap:	If the interpolation code is being looked at how about adding a counter in the viewer so that after X frames with no data from the sim interpolation is stopped? This would prevent 100+ meter rubber banding effects.
[16:37]	Andrew Linden:	Some varieties of Havok "shapes" are easier to remove the gap than others.
[16:37]	Youri Ashton:	which happened to xstorm a lot :p
[16:38]	Simon Linden:	yes, they're considering that
[16:38]	Youri Ashton:	seeing nothing but blackness around you and not even a sim nearby :p
[16:38]	Andrew Linden:	Oy, the avatar gap -- I think that may only be fixible by adding some client-side physics
[16:38]	Rex Cronon:	sometimes if migh be better if things just stopped moving, instead of going along the last knowing direction vector
[16:38]	Rex Cronon:	it might*
[16:39]	Youri Ashton:	same happens with vehicles, so doesnt matter if you trow meshes against them or not. same result
[16:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	Turn off Momentum, until the object has arrived, with its driver?
[16:39]	Simon Linden:	They're thinking of an intermediate step that's not full-blown client side prediction, but just doing better with some of the data we have now
[16:39]	Youri Ashton:	bail out and you will loose the vehicle and yourself arawn :p
[16:40]	Andrew Linden:	I saw that improved interpolation email thread go by. I didn't have time to read it carefully.
[16:40]	Youri Ashton:	specially if its a high speed vehicle
[16:40]	Andrew Linden:	er... improved extrapolation
[16:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've been places, where the system just sort of drops you in a corner, so your vehicle can cross a couple more sims
[16:40]	Xugu Madison:	Could you put a buffer-zone around sims? So at say 6m from the edge the client auto-connects to the next sim, and pre-transfers the avatar incase they do make the crossing, rather than waiting until they hit the border?
[16:40]	Youri Ashton:	thats more similar to hitting a banline arawn
[16:41]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, I got your email about Babbage's office hours and the request for the "uniform scaling LSL call"
[16:41]	Andrew Linden:	but I wasn't able to read them carefully yet
[16:41]	Simon Linden:	We've talked a bit about transfering some info before you cross over, but haven't been able to come up with anything that isn't overly complicated
[16:42]	Andrew Linden:	after a quick glance I didn't see anywhere where Babbage actually addressed the issue. Did he respond to the subject?
[16:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	He did, somewhat.
[16:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	In summary his response was "Maybe when we have time," and after that when pressed, "We're focusing on 1.38 and getting that out and that's why I'm not looking to add things to the pipeline."
[16:42]	Xugu Madison:	The need for a simple call for scaling is to ensure there aren't run time conditions, not to mention moving duplicate code from many scripts, into a single place in the sim code...
[16:42]	Xugu Madison:	I suspect things like needing multiple scripts to animate more than one avatar will be addressed first, though...
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	Ah well, it looked like he had an actual agenda and was walking through it
[16:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Xugu: yeah, scaling needs to be atomic.
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	which is more than I can say for most of our office hours here ;-)
[16:43]	Youri Ashton:	could it be a idea to try out if a "auto route plotter" could help? look in a direction and it will load the next sim partially untill you are within a few meters and it loads the rest. this should also solve another problem, the sim crossings that take now way too long
[16:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	His actual response to the SVC-2885 was limited to about 3-4 sentences, and anything after that was more just a generic response.
[16:43]	llSetObjectScale and	llGetObjectScale
[16:43]	Xugu Madison:	Morgaine; I also think we need a lot more common stuff provided as an API. So much duplicate code...
[16:44]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Babbage asks people what they want to talk about at the beginning of each office hours, and builds an agenda from that.
[16:44]	Simon Linden:	Sounds like he's organized :)
[16:44]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, but does he do weekly or biweekly office hours? ;-)
[16:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Xugu: agreed. I've especially worried about that in the viewer --- more and more features, instead of more APIs.
[16:45]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Only weekly, at 3AM
[16:45]	Youri Ashton:	the idea i just sended could solve multiple problems in 1 go. however, it does keep loading and may need a on/off switch for those that want it
[16:45]	Gooden Uggla:	speaking of babbage, is there a loose time frame for the debian/mono upgrade?
[16:45]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Oh, rhetorical question, hlol
[16:45]	xstorm Radek:	Simon if you or andrew needs to load test on mainland please feel free to test it on trendone
[16:45]	Andrew Linden:	Youri, yes we've kicked that idea around... the devil is in the details of how to actually implement that
[16:45]	Rex Cronon:	sadly babbage has his OH always at the sime time:(
[16:46]	Xugu Madison:	Gooden; Babbage was saying 1.42, but I don't think we'll get more concrete time scale until 1.40 is live
[16:46]	Gooden Uggla:	ok, thanks xugu, i'm glad to hear it'll be moving up
[16:46]	Andrew Linden:	our object streaming system is not yet compatible with "incremental" transmission of object data
[16:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	Brits like to work, while Americans sleep, but then go home earely
[16:46]	Youri Ashton:	Andrew: well, i think this plotter should be on the user side. no need to lag up the server more
[16:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Does everyone in the scripting team work in UK? If not, then arrange for a US team member to hold OH at US-friendly hours.
[16:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Morgaine: Kelly does some scripting, he's been attending beta OH as of late.
[16:47]	Xugu Madison:	Morgaine; to be honest, I get the impression scripting Lindens aren't exactly excited to have to deal with the residents....
[16:47]	Youri Ashton:	andrew: the bad side having it on the server is that it WILL add a hell lot extra lag, on user side, it just requests the data as it does now
[16:47]	Andrew Linden:	oh Youri was talking about an "auto plotter". I thought he was talking about pre-emptive transmission of objects near the boundary.
[16:48]	Gooden Uggla:	for the record, the Beta Team is awesome, those guys really went above the call of duty this week
[16:48]	Andrew Linden:	By "auto plotter" you mean "pathfinding"?
[16:48]	Youri Ashton:	andrew: in a way of speaking, yes
[16:48]	Andrew Linden:	what si the "Beta Team", is that the mesh and Havok7 stuff?
[16:48]	Gooden Uggla:	Xugu... Babbage loves his FanBoys...
[16:48]	Gooden Uggla:	:)
[16:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Alternative suggestion: get Babbage to hold OH at end of UK afternoon, not at 10am.
[16:49]	xstorm Radek:	???
[16:49]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew: Beta is mostly 1.38 and 1.40 Havok7 stuff now.
[16:49]	Gooden Uggla:	the seaatle guys
[16:49]	Gooden Uggla:	seattle
[16:49]	Youri Ashton:	andrew: its a little bit similar to a TomTom in your car, it plans only then what you look at long enough
[16:49]	Memorial Dae:	S.O.E. employed a small system that passed agents to the next GRID before they passed into it and inversley transmitted visual data for outlying objects to the client as it would see it before crossing
[16:49]	xstorm Radek:	what beta team ?
[16:49]	Chaley May:	will it ever be possible to fly/sail over the void areas?
[16:49]	Gooden Uggla:	figure of speech
[16:49]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Mesh is in closed beta, as I hear from Qarl's Oh.
[16:49]	Gooden Uggla:	the "beta guys"
[16:49]	xstorm Radek:	i blame Sebastean for every thing
[16:50]	Rex Cronon:	maybe if babbags oh were more flexible he would have more "fans":)
[16:50]	Andrew Linden:	Chaley, not possible to sail over void space for a long time.
[16:50]	Andrew Linden:	er... won't be possible for a long time.
[16:50]	Rex Cronon:	babbage's*
[16:50]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Rex: Are you saying that people in Europe are cranky folks? ;)
[16:50]	Chaley May:	it would be nice if it did become possible and there we could fly without worrying about sim borders
[16:51]	xstorm Radek:	lol i have seen Seastean sleep testing on Aditi as i built prims around him lol ;-)
[16:51]	Gooden Uggla:	recompile your vehicles in LSL, you'll have better handoffs
[16:51]	Rex Cronon:	i am saying that being more flexible can be beneficial:)
[16:51]	Simon Linden:	Currently there isn't any simulator managing what's happening in those parts of the world, so they are truely empty
[16:51]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Xstorm - I normally have 2-3, sometimes 4 clients running simultaneously - it can be hard to keep track of all of them at once, hehe.
[16:51]	Chaley May:	maybe the client should be able to take over he physics in void spaces
[16:51]	Simon Linden:	Speaking of those handoffs, I'm trying to get some code changes in that area into 1.40
[16:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	I imagine holding OHs at 10am UK time is on purpose, since I can't think of another reason for the inflexibility. Holding them at 4pm UK time would make it easy for US peeps.
[16:52]	Simon Linden:	SHould have less lag for others in the region when it happens
[16:52]	Sebastean Steamweaver	needs a second monitor.
[16:52]	Memorial Dae:	hehee...second monitor
[16:52]	Andrew Linden:	one way to open up the void regions would be to fix region crossings as much as possible and enable different sized regions (>256 meters on a side, and rectangular shape)
[16:52]	Andrew Linden:	I think that's the way I would want to do it.
[16:52]	Gooden Uggla:	simon interesting... you can make fixes before mono initializatiion freezes are fixed?
[16:53]	Gooden Uggla:	i hope
[16:53]	Chaley May:	why rectangle?
[16:53]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew will linden labs permit larger sims ??
[16:53]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... or there is the idea of the "moving" region that travels with you and simulates the nearby space.
[16:53]	Youri Ashton:	aight, im going to Michael, him and me are cooking up something for in-world
[16:53]	Jonathan Yap:	Gooden, did you see the announcement Oskar made yesterday about mono freezes?
[16:53]	Youri Ashton:	tnx for the Oh lindens
[16:53]	Youri Ashton:	bye bye all
[16:53]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, yes we would permit larger regions if we could fix our code to support them
[16:53]	Memorial Dae:	moving region...an instance
[16:53]	Rex Cronon:	tc youri
[16:53]	Xugu Madison:	rectangle! Bah, why are we even sticking to x,y,z co-ords, lets move to polar :)
[16:53]	Gooden Uggla:	yes, i was there
[16:53]	Arawn Spitteler	wonders why moving regions weren't standard frokm the get go
[16:54]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'll be continuing to visit Babbage's OH, and trying to get more people interested in the resize issue. I am a bit worried that after 1.38, other things will fill up the pipeline - after 2 years, for such an easy thing, I figure it's worth the time. However, I understand that not everyone has the wacky hours that I do :)
[16:54]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, I'm assuming that's being worked on progressively as people re-write code anyway?
[16:54]	Gooden Uggla:	i'm just wondering if handoffs can be separated from those freezes
[16:54]	Xugu Madison:	Arawn, I wonder many things about the original design. Also, whenever someone talks about group chat....
[16:54]	Andrew Linden:	Xugu, not really. We aren't actively fixing the code to support different sizes yet.
[16:54]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Xugu: PRIM_TARGET_OMEGA was one of the things you were looking for, right?
[16:55]	Xugu Madison:	Seb, YES!
[16:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	Do people rewrite the code? I thought htey just added
[16:55]	Xugu Madison	makes swing-doors that need it, can single-script a whole house if he had PRIM_TARGET_OMEGA
[16:55]	Memorial Dae	smiles
[16:55]	Andrew Linden:	Which means code we're writing today may actually be increasing the technical debt that needs to be paid to open up different sizes.
[16:55]	xstorm Radek:	ok this will sound crazy but i was thinking again about network timing and handoffs what if when the http texture server is put in to play if that speeds up crossing ?
[16:55]	Gooden Uggla:	agreed seb, you sshould continue to keep that issue front burner
[16:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	xstorm: I imagine that SL will provide larger sims when the competition forces it :-)
[16:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Xugu: you might want to push to have llRotLookAt fixed for non-phys objects.
[16:56]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, HTTP texture download will indeed free up some CPU cycles on the simulator
[16:56]	Andrew Linden:	which will improve things all around
[16:56]	Andrew Linden:	including region crossings
[16:56]	Tillie Ariantho:	I guess we need Apple to start a virtual world, they will raise he bar for LL too. :P
[16:56]	xstorm Radek:	if that will be the case then all you need is a preloader for objects ?
[16:56]	Andrew Linden:	but it isnt' a magical bullet for region crossings
[16:56]	Simon Linden:	I think Google will beat Apple to it
[16:56]	Xugu Madison:	Seb, interesting idea...
[16:56]	Andrew Linden:	which still block significantly
[16:56]	Memorial Dae:	yes will be nice to NOt see a pending over 1000
[16:56]	Tillie Ariantho:	Google failed with its virtual world.
[16:56]	Xugu Madison:	Simon, Andrew, any news on a new (fixed) group chat architecture?
[16:57]	Simon Linden:	Xugu - I haven't heard of work in that area
[16:57]	Memorial Dae:	Ah but I did dig those crazy warehouse spaces
[16:57]	Andrew Linden:	Google gave up on their "virtual room" project
[16:57]	Andrew Linden:	it wasn't really a virtual world, IMO
[16:57]	Memorial Dae:	It was not it was a...proof of concept! :)
[16:57]	Rex Cronon:	maybe that is why it was called a room:)
[16:58]	Gooden Uggla:	someone said yesterday that they think of falling on handoff as gravity continuing during the exchange, it was the best way i've seen it said
[16:58]	Andrew Linden:	but a virtually interactive Google Earth, that would be more interesting
[16:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm pretty worried on VWRAP actually. I don't see much of what you guys are busy on here actually working across interop at all.
[16:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Google Mapos does offer a street view
[16:59]	Simon Linden:	Yes, google has too many of the pieces ... Google Earth, Sketchup, etc that it seems they will likely put them together at some point
[16:59]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, I think that is a valid worry. I'm certainly not working on anything that would help VWRAP or interop along, except for cleaning up simulator code, if that counts.
[16:59]	Jonathan Yap:	Now there's an idea, google maps w/street view for regions :)
[16:59]	Memorial Dae:	Its already in the pipe
[16:59]	Andrew Linden:	But I think if the VWRAP protocol/design proceeds perhaps LL will eventually write server2 to that specification
[16:59]	Memorial Dae:	Oh you mean in THIS type of region?
[17:00]	xstorm Radek:	you know my wife patty was saying it be great to have webcam for private IM i bet it be a great way to ad a 3D image of a persons face on there avatar and may be get a better messaging system
[17:00]	Andrew Linden:	these days I'm in favor of a server2 because it is the only way I can think of dumping support for a bunch of legacy features/misfeatures that give me a rash
[17:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: there's a danger that everyone will be interopping happily in a couple years' while you have a non-interoperable walled garden. That would be bad for business.
[17:00]	Memorial Dae:	sending you the link X
[17:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew: I agree that there is some content that should be moved from legacy to history.
[17:00]	Rex Cronon:	xstorm. u can use shared media:)
[17:00]	Jonathan Yap:	Using viewer 2 and prim media people have been "wearing" their RL face
[17:00]	Xugu Madison	would love to see a server-2 grid that you could grid-hop to/from server-1 grid
[17:01]	Andrew Linden:	Indeed Morgaine. That would be bad for LL, but maybe good for the VW space overall.
[17:01]	xstorm Radek:	i love to see server 2 put in to place and drop LSL and move to C#
[17:01]	Gooden Uggla:	wait... we just now got the hippos back :P
[17:02]	Xugu Madison:	xstorm,well C# is coming at least..
[17:02]	Memorial Dae	tries CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+H
[17:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: I know. But it would be sad to see SL marginalized, since you guys started the whole thing :-(
[17:02]	Gooden Uggla:	sposed to be in viewer 2
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	well... "hippos" is more of an easter egg than a legacy misfeature
[17:02]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[17:02]	Xugu Madison:	You know what I note about all the cyberpunk novels? No-one ever thinks of all the people who lost man-years of time in standards meetings to make cyberspace :-D
[17:02]	Gooden Uggla:	and yet makes old resi's happy, go figure...
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	yeah. Morgaine, I don't think LL would fail to get on that bandwagon in time.
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	I have to bail ... thanks everyone for coming
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	See you all next time
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	See you Simon, have a good weekend :-)
[17:03]	Gooden Uggla:	have a good evening simon
[17:03]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon
[17:03]	Opensource Obscure:	bye bye
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	oh right, office hours are over
[17:03]	Xugu Madison:	See you Simon, thanks for coming!
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	Take care...
[17:03]	Memorial Dae:	...have fun stormin the castle!
[17:03]	Jonathan Yap:	Thank you Simon & Andrew
[17:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take care Simon, thank you
[17:03]	Chaley May:	bye :)
[17:03]	Xugu Madison:	Meep, hour went fast!
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	and I have a review to do
[17:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Thank you Andrew for the office hours
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	thanks for coming everyone
[17:03]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[17:03]	xstorm Radek:	Morgaine is watching for open and free catnip in sl too i think
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Take care Andrew, have a good one :-)
[17:04]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks !
[17:04]	Xugu Madison:	Thanks for hosting Andrew!
[17:04]	xstorm Radek:	laterz all
[17:04]	Gooden Uggla:	night andrew, thanks
[17:04]	Rex Cronon:	tc xstorm
[17:04]	Opensource Obscure:	bye everybody
[17:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu xstorm :-)
[17:04]	Rex Cronon:	tc OS
[17:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Time for me to head off for work, Take care all :)
[17:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Bye Seb :-)
[17:04]	Rex Cronon:	tc sebastean
[17:04]	xstorm Radek:	:-)
[17:04]	Xugu Madison:	seeya Seb!
[17:05]	Xugu Madison:	Of the people left... anyone noticed the economy being mostly dead this week?
[17:05]	Gooden Uggla:	adios seb
[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	is it dead?
[17:05]	Gooden Uggla:	good evening everyone, have a lucky night :)
[17:05]	Ardy Lay:	Search is USELESS.
[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	tc gooden
[17:05]	Xugu Madison:	Rex; well, my store's done badly, others are reporting similar, wondered if it was just me
[17:05]	Xugu Madison:	Seeya Gooden!
[17:05]	Gooden Uggla:	the L$ is flating, things are going to be slow, yes
[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	maybe it has something to do with the new viewer
[17:06]	Gooden Uggla:	see ya xugu
[17:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Xu: I don't follow the economy. It's never interested me, I find it an intrusion from RL, and a very bad one that corrupts people's views.
[17:06]	Memorial Dae:	Global economy impacting? :)

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