User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 04 16

Transcript

[15:51]	Xugu Madison:	evening all!
[15:52]	Ardy Lay:	Hi
[15:53]	Techwolf Lupindo	smiles
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Great video against software patents -- http://patentabsurdity.com/watch.html
[16:02]	Latif Khalifa:	is it the one produced by the EFF?
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah
[16:02]	Latif Khalifa:	seen it. it's good
[16:03]	Ardy Lay:	http://blogs.secondlife.com/poll.jspa?container=2218&containerType=14
[16:04]	Ardy Lay:	Does that load okay?
[16:04]	Slee Mayo:	loaded for me
[16:04]	Latif Khalifa:	when i click on the poll it opens up
[16:04]	Charlette Proto:	EFF are a weird phenomenon in Aus, they have remarcably little to 'say' about the comms minister legislating censorship of internet (via ISP based URL filters)
[16:04]	Latif Khalifa:	LOL 87% hate viewer2
[16:05]	Ardy Lay:	If you log in you too can vote.
[16:05]	Ardy Lay:	Not sure why there are two identical polls.
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	not surprised about viewer 2 I hate the UI changes and it works like shit on my pc
[16:06]	Charlette Proto:	all other viewers give great performance but SL2 is just dead
[16:06]	Xugu Madison:	We're missing someone...
[16:07]	Slee Mayo:	ugh, simon's bear is a census worker
[16:07]	Charlette Proto:	BTW I'd be working on phys before the viewer UI e.g. fix collisions and clothes (skirt)
[16:07]	Quake Monitor:	M 5.0, offshore Bio-Bio, Chile - 37.484°S 73.732°W - Friday, April 16, 2010 22:38:25 UTC
[16:07]	Charlette Proto:	missing Lindens are you?
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	how is the vulcano dust Morgaine?
[16:08]	Latif Khalifa:	tasty :)
[16:08]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Dust?
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	makes good cookies if you catch enough HEHE
[16:08]	Slee Mayo:	ash
[16:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Why are you all getting volcano ash?
[16:09]	Charlette Proto:	Iceland vulcano covered northern europe in dust Seb
[16:09]	Latif Khalifa:	here in denmark airspace has been closed since yesterday
[16:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Heh, I missed that newsflash.
[16:09]	Charlette Proto:	flights have been suspended all over europe etc so it must be bad
[16:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	At least it's only ash.
[16:10]	Latif Khalifa:	there is no flying here at all
[16:10]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	How big was the explosion?
[16:10]	Ardy Lay:	That ash does evil things to aircraft in flight.
[16:10]	Xugu Madison:	It's mostly high up in the atmosphere, here (UK). I believe there's some general advice on what to do if it lands, but I haven't seen any
[16:10]	Xugu Madison:	Specifically, it coats the inside of the engines in glass
[16:10]	Ardy Lay:	That's one effect, yes.
[16:10]	Charlette Proto:	nice one the jets may last for ever now
[16:11]	Xugu Madison:	Oh, ablates the fins, damages the entire aircraft exterior, possibly renders the front windscreen impossible to see through...
[16:11]	Ardy Lay:	It also causes large charges to build up and makes some avionics and radios fail.
[16:11]	Slee Mayo:	i blame nibiru
[16:11]	Chaley May:	cancelled?
[16:11]	Ardy Lay:	The entire aircraft resembles a plasma ball in flight.
[16:11]	Xugu Madison:	So, in summary; volcanic ash + aircraft = BAD
[16:12]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Unfortunately yes, Niburu has been cancelled. They couldn't make the flight to Earth due to security check delays. :>
[16:12]	Xugu Madison:	Chaley, well, no sign of anything Linden shaped
[16:12]	Charlette Proto:	landing may be difficult if you get enough dust on the airstrip
[16:12]	Xugu Madison:	Charlette; err.... last major aircraft that went through a volcanic ash cloud lost all 4 engines, Landing is not the primary issue
[16:13]	Ardy Lay:	Xugu, slow piston engine aircraft with good intake filtering can survive the experience.
[16:13]	Xugu Madison:	Ardy, helicopters too, but it's not a fantastic idea
[16:13]	Ardy Lay:	The filters have to be made for it.
[16:13]	Ardy Lay:	Yeah, to be avoided.
[16:13]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The engines are hot enought inside to turn the ash to molten glass and coat the fuel nozzles, blocking flow and causing flameout. After cooling, the glaass is britle enoguth to crack off and allow fuel flow again.
[16:14]	Xugu Madison:	http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8621992.stm is a good intro on what the ash does
[16:14]	Slee Mayo:	Slee Mayo
[16:15]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The ash is like mild sandpaper and will trash an engine for future flights.
[16:15]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Well, we'll be getting some beautiful sunsets.
[16:15]	Charlette Proto:	glad I'm not flying but 2 of my friends are departing for Germany and I think they will end up stuck in Singapore
[16:15]	Slee Mayo:	figures, asset server is borked
[16:15]	Xugu Madison:	Charlette; with a little luck flights will be back on tomorrow
[16:16]	Charlette Proto:	asset server? why?
[16:16]	Slee Mayo:	i'm still waiting on clue 1 notecard
[16:16]	Charlette Proto:	I hope they can get on, Singapore airport isn't like visiting Singapore
[16:16]	Quake Monitor:	M 5.2, south of the Fiji Islands - 23.725°S 176.972°W - Friday, April 16, 2010 22:44:16 UTC
[16:17]	Slee Mayo:	the earth is about to open up
[16:17]	Charlette Proto:	maybe it already did under the LL office
[16:17]	Charlette Proto:	Tech your mic is open
[16:17]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hmm...the Lindens are late today.
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	quite late, I've never seen that before with either Andrew or Simon
[16:18]	Quake Monitor:	M 5.0, offshore Bio-Bio, Chile - 37.484°S 73.732°W - Friday, April 16, 2010 22:38:25 UTC
[16:18]	Slee Mayo:	!ol a2e76fcd-9360-4f6d-a924-000000000010
[16:19]	Slee Mayo:	he's offline, out drinking beer
[16:19]	Xugu Madison	is really beginning to wonder what's going on. Enkidu and Qarl had cancellation signs up, Yoz apparently missed his OH too, now Andrew & Simon
[16:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	MMO Earth - The Chasm: Patch 3497.5928.87.1 - New Terrain! We're remoddeling part of the major continents as part of a major content revision. Several new geological features will be added, including breathtaking cliffsides whre plains used to be, lava flows, periodic rockslide events, and more!
[16:19]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Friday improtu party I bet.
[16:19]	Slee Mayo:	Slee Mayo
[16:20]	Xugu Madison	sighs "I'm feeling insufficiently techy this week..."
[16:20]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Well, I'm gonna head back. Could someone IM me if Andrew or Simon show up?
[16:20]	Latif Khalifa:	i think i will go soon too
[16:20]	Slee Mayo:	have fun, i'm going to drink beer and engage in a scavengerhunt
[16:20]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take care all
[16:21]	Latif Khalifa:	if i spot them i will tell you :)
[16:21]	Latif Khalifa:	tc seb :)
[16:21]	Xugu Madison	's going to go too, is on a laptop and it burns
[16:21]	Xugu Madison:	see you later, everyone!
[16:21]	Chaley May:	cya
[16:21]	Charlette Proto:	haha Xugu are you on viewer 2?
[16:22]	Xugu Madison:	Charlette, that too, but the aluminium casing conducting heat is really the issue methinks
[16:22]	Xugu Madison:	Oh, sorry, when I say it burns, I mean there is very hot metal very close to my legs....
[16:22]	Charlette Proto:	mine heats up like hell on viewer 2 but sings allong great with gen 1 viewer
[16:22]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[16:23]	Charlette Proto:	haha watch your crotch Xugu
[16:23]	Xugu Madison:	Nah, mine burns equally on either :)
[16:23]	Xugu Madison	never wanted kids, it's fine :-D
[16:23]	Charlette Proto:	me neither, kids stink of poo
[16:24]	Latif Khalifa:	leters peeps
[16:24]	Charlette Proto:	I suppose this OH isn't on
[16:24]	Charlette Proto:	byee Latif, I may do some inventory sorting
[16:24]	Xugu Madison:	Yes, I was leaving wasn't I... *scampers*
[16:25]	Charlette Proto:	Xu go before you burn your pants
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Too many IMs damn it
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	I guess Lindens didn't turn up, huh? /me reads back
[16:25]	Charlette Proto:	same here morg and more than a dozen notices to click through
[16:26]	Charlette Proto:	yup Morg Lindens are dead
[16:26]	Charlette Proto:	yuk my fingernail smells of cheese
[16:27]	Ardy Lay:	I wonder if they are watching to polls and drinking heavily.
[16:27]	Ardy Lay:	-to +those
[16:27]	Charlette Proto:	you could be right Ardy, viewer 2 was supposed to be great for users HAHA
[16:28]	Charlette Proto:	new level of user experience - sure is - shit
[16:30]	Rex Cronon:	greetings everybody
[16:30]	Charlette Proto:	yeah Rex same here but we don't have LL here
[16:30]	Rex Cronon:	hi. what? both andrew and simon canceled?
[16:30]	Ardy Lay:	Char is withing shouting distance but I don't suppose that counts for much.
[16:31]	Ardy Lay:	This isn't Char's scheduled event.
[16:32]	Rex Cronon:	i thought that andrew's oh was one of those things that always happen. like death or taxes:)
[16:32]	Charlette Proto:	we could turn this meeting into a 'fix the avatar skirt' I suppose
[16:32]	Rex Cronon:	what do u know? andrew is here
[16:32]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[16:32]	Charlette Proto:	yes untill today
[16:33]	Rex Cronon:	we were just talking about u:)
[16:33]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hi andrew
[16:33]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, Simon didn
[16:33]	Andrew Linden:	didn't make it today?
[16:33]	Charlette Proto:	noo
[16:33]	Rex Cronon:	connection problems?
[16:33]	Andrew Linden:	Sorry I'm late.
[16:33]	Andrew Linden:	I didn
[16:34]	Andrew Linden:	Didn't go into work today.
[16:34]	Charlette Proto:	OMG andrew isn't rezzing for me
[16:34]	Andrew Linden:	And then I forgot about office hours.
[16:34]	Rex Cronon:	i came like 2 minutes before u did, andrew
[16:34]	Andrew Linden:	Perhaps Simon is also out of the office today.
[16:34]	Andrew Linden:	I'll check...
[16:34]	Charlette Proto:	ARC of 1 and no go - where are we headding
[16:35]	Rex Cronon:	i see u as cloud andrew. i wonder what kind of attchments do u have on that take so long to load:)
[16:35]	Charlette Proto:	same here Rex
[16:35]	Andrew Linden:	I modified my outfit a little bit... new assets.
[16:36]	Andrew Linden:	But you won't be able to notice. I tweaked where the purple meets the white ;-)
[16:36]	Charlette Proto:	you must be using Emerald viewer Andrew, it always fails to load new assets
[16:37]	Rex Cronon:	as long as i see u as a cloud u bet i won't notice anything:)
[16:37]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, well as I said I'm sorry I'm late.
[16:37]	Andrew Linden:	Lessee... news and announcements...
[16:37]	Charlette Proto:	I'm not surprised - viewer 2 stinks
[16:37]	Andrew Linden:	I managed to spend all week trying to get old bugs through QA
[16:37]	Andrew Linden:	so I haven't fixed anything new or interesting.
[16:38]	Rex Cronon:	u said sorry once. IMO that is enough. besides it can happen to anybody. i know from personal experience:)
[16:38]	Andrew Linden:	Simon managed go get some of his work through QA and merged into the main codebase this week
[16:38]	Andrew Linden:	and I got nothing... I'm a little jealous.
[16:38]	Andrew Linden:	I'm hoping my three or four projects will clear next week.
[16:39]	Charlette Proto:	I didn't realise LL had a QA process at all
[16:39]	Rex Cronon:	btw. can u fix sensor. is kind of borked:(
[16:39]	Andrew Linden:	Actually it does and it is somewhat painful from my point of view.
[16:39]	Andrew Linden:	Nevertheless, we do have fewer bugs going out.
[16:39]	Andrew Linden:	so there has been some progress
[16:40]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, how is sensor borked?
[16:40]	Rex Cronon:	it can detect ghost prims, but it returns the their key instead of the owner, when u use lldetected owner
[16:40]	Charlette Proto:	fewer bugs? from what perspecive, server stats or something?
[16:41]	Rex Cronon:	oh. and particles can't point to ghost prims
[16:41]	Andrew Linden:	By "ghost prims" you mean objects that cannot be seen but can be collided against?
[16:41]	Rex Cronon:	i don't know about the collision part, but i can't see them
[16:41]	Andrew Linden:	Charlette, we have fewer new bugs being deployed.
[16:41]	Andrew Linden:	I know because I triage the main list of simulator bugs
[16:42]	Charlette Proto:	ah OK
[16:42]	Andrew Linden:	and the rate of new bugs coming in is definitely lower than it used to be.
[16:42]	Andrew Linden:	That doesn't mean we're fixing bugs any faster, just making fewer new ones.
[16:42]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Untill 1.38.1 gets deployed. ;-)
[16:43]	Rex Cronon:	i guess whatever is that u r fixing it kind of works:)
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, that rings a bell... there was a sensor bug that would return the object key in certain cases....
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	I made a comment on the public jira about it. I can't remember the number.
[16:43]	Rex Cronon:	like when the owner wans't in the same sim?
[16:43]	Rex Cronon:	wasn't*
[16:43]	Charlette Proto:	good start, deploying bugged code has a pretty bad record and often leads to exploits
[16:44]	Andrew Linden:	However as I recall it was a case of something not being found, so the "recycled" variable is returned unchanged.
[16:44]	Charlette Proto:	werd but Andrew still hasn't rezzed for me
[16:45]	Charlette Proto:	a deleted avatar returns the UUID if you are in a sim where they got deleted from
[16:45]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I'm using the new viewer. I wonder if that has something to do with my clothing assets not showing up.
[16:46]	Ardy Lay:	I see your clothing and skin but you have a default shape on my screen.
[16:46]	ANSI Soderstrom:	yaay
[16:46]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew has rezzed for me, but appears to be half-Ruth
[16:46]	Charlette Proto:	it could Andrew - like I said viewer 2 isn't worth wasting time on IMHO
[16:46]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, that sounds like the bug Charlette.
[16:46]	Xugu Madison:	Viewer 2 can have "side-effects" when moving to it, but should only be on first run
[16:47]	Andrew Linden:	It looked like something that just couldn't be changed -- I'm sure there are a bunch of scripts that now rely on that crappy behavior.
[16:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Which behavior?
[16:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hi Andrew :)
[16:47]	Eddi Decosta:	Hi Andrew!! ㋡
[16:47]	Andrew Linden:	If you ask for the owner of an object key and the owner is not around you get the object key back.
[16:47]	Eddi Decosta:	hi hi Latif ㋡
[16:48]	Andrew Linden:	Oy, my framerate is really slow on this machine from home.
[16:48]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to modify my graphics preferences...
[16:48]	Eddi Decosta:	well, im ok with the 2.0.1 for now
[16:48]	Xugu Madison	thinks LL may need to bring in a policy on how long they'll support bugs
[16:48]	Charlette Proto:	I've found this (key as owner/avatar) to be a regular behaviour with deleted griefer avatar objects
[16:48]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Oh, hmm. I don't depend on that behavior, no. But that doesn't hurt what I do use it for. I only use it for listen event security checks, when I can't apply a filter for a specific key.
[16:49]	Eddi Decosta:	12.1, with 8x setting ㋡
[16:49]	Andrew Linden:	Not much blood to be sqeezed out of this fossle of a graphics card I'm using.
[16:49]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	A friend of mine actually noticed that behavior using llGetOwnerKey a while back, except he -was- in the sim. It had to do with attachments, but I forget the specific scenario.
[16:50]	Eddi Decosta:	Awndrew, i have a nvidia 9800gtx+ 512m for my part ..
[16:50]	Eddi Decosta:	Andrew* sorry my typos ㋡
[16:50]	Andrew Linden:	I think I'm on a nVidia 6800 or something.
[16:50]	Xugu Madison:	Nvidia 9400M. It's fine except for the burning
[16:51]	Eddi Decosta:	yike ....
[16:51]	Charlette Proto:	in my experience Viewer2 kills the best of computers even mine which works fab with gen 1 viewers including Snow 1.4 which has some viewer 2 media code
[16:51]	Eddi Decosta:	6600 , iuch
[16:51]	Andrew Linden:	I take that back... 6200
[16:51]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, keep it a few more years, you'll be able to sell it to a museum :)
[16:51]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, perhaps it is time to upgrade my home computer.
[16:52]	Latif Khalifa:	i was afraid all lindens got lost today, almost all OH cancelled xD
[16:52]	Eddi Decosta:	loll, Andrew i think so to :p
[16:52]	Eddi Decosta:	especialy with l viewer ㋡
[16:52]	Eddi Decosta:	sl*
[16:52]	Pixeleen Mistral:	can I ask a serious question Andrew?
[16:52]	Sebastean Steamweaver	is on a ... can't remember the name of it.
[16:52]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew; some of the AMD motherboards with onboard graphics will be significantly faster than your current rig, and should make for a cheap PC if you want to do it on a budget
[16:53]	Andrew Linden:	I think maybe next week is the deadline to get all bug fixes merged to the main codebase in order to get into server-1.40, so that is what I'll be working on -- meeting that deadline.
[16:53]	Xugu Madison:	Do we have a feature list for more efficient script stuff hitting live, in 1.40?
[16:53]	Andrew Linden:	Some of you probably heard from Falcon... looks like Havok7 will be included in server-1.40 after all -- that is the main plan anyway.
[16:53]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Has anyone else been having issues with people not rezzing?
[16:53]	Sebastean Steamweaver	seconds Xugu's question.
[16:53]	Andrew Linden:	There was some uncertainty for a while whether it would be in 1.40 or 1.42.
[16:53]	Xugu Madison	has started seeing how much memory the popular scripts out there use. It's fantastic, so much to replace... :)
[16:53]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, Simon's multi-threading of rezzing avis, what version is that in?
[16:54]	ANSI Soderstrom:	andrew is not rezzing o.O
[16:54]	Rex Cronon:	reduce your draw distance. and wait a few minutes, sebastean
[16:54]	Eddi Decosta:	lol Andrew appear on women for me ..
[16:54]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Although Xugu, I think probably if any were on the way, we'd have been told.
[16:54]	Andrew Linden:	Xugu, I don't know what will be in 1.40 for efficient scripts.
[16:54]	Pixeleen Mistral:	do you guys have any plan to replace or fix SL group chat - and raise the limit on the number of groups?
[16:54]	Andrew Linden:	You'll have to ask Babbage.
[16:54]	Eddi Decosta:	its a bug or?
[16:54]	Xugu Madison:	Seb; there was talk of PRIM_NAME and PRIM_DESC last night at the beta grid OH
[16:54]	Andrew Linden:	There were some optimizations (on load of objects) that was supposed to go into 1.38
[16:54]	Andrew Linden:	however it had to be pulled out
[16:54]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yeah, but those were last-minute things that Babbage had said he might include before.
[16:54]	Xugu Madison	has a feeling we won't know about 1.40 until it hits beat grid, but will ask :)
[16:55]	Charlette Proto:	Falcon had some interesting comments a while ago - re client side phys - any idea if this may be a future development?
[16:55]	Andrew Linden:	I would expect that the MONO team is going to try to get those optimizations into 1.40 or 1.42
[16:55]	Andrew Linden:	I doubt they'll get them into 1.40 -- the deadline is coming up too fast.
[16:56]	Andrew Linden:	Charlette, Falcon is set on getting client side physics out, and there are a bunch of other LL devs who want to do it.
[16:56]	Andrew Linden:	I'm guessing that it will get done -- the only question is how soon.
[16:56]	Eddi Decosta:	Andrew i have a little question why the rolling take more of one week for the 1.38 on agni?
[16:56]	Andrew Linden:	My guess would be at least a year for that.
[16:56]	Pixeleen Mistral:	a year for the chat fixes?
[16:56]	Xugu Madison:	Eddi, it's not. 1.38 was rolled back, 1.38.1 has only been live for 2 days
[16:56]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The mono rez fix won't go in till mono is updated on the sim themselves.
[16:56]
[16:56]	Andrew Linden:	Eddi, we started to roll a pilot (500+ regions) of 1.38
[16:57]	Charlette Proto:	I'm thinking that if phys was to go clientside it should have options to run at more precise level e.g. avatar cloth collisions
[16:57]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Which won't be fixed until Debian is updated, so we're told.
[16:57]	Andrew Linden:	However, because of the aforementioned MONO script optimizations some scripts would not be able to save state.
[16:57]	Eddi Decosta:	Xugu, ok cause in some region i see 1.36.4 , not fix yet :p
[16:57]	Andrew Linden:	So 1.38 was delayed while they pulled that stuff out and could retest.
[16:57]	Pixeleen Mistral:	I must be muted - I'll just give up now
[16:57]	Eddi Decosta:	ok, thanks andrew ㋡
[16:58]	Xugu Madison:	Eddi; sorry, I meant it will be a week to complete the update. Most of which is testing time
[16:58]	Andrew Linden:	Really Sebastean, where did you hear that debian had to be updated?
[16:58]	Andrew Linden:	From Babbage?
[16:58]
[16:58]	Ardy Lay:	SVC-3895
[16:58]	Rezzing Mono	scripted object cripples sim FPS
[16:58]	Xugu Madison:	Pixeleen, what chat fixes?
[16:58]	Ardy Lay:	In there, Kelly Linden
[16:59]	Andrew Linden:	Pixeleen, I was saying a year for client side physics, which Falcon and others want to get done.
[16:59]	Andrew Linden:	What chat bugs are you talking about?
[16:59]	Andrew Linden	reads back.
[16:59]	Rex Cronon:	i heard the same thing about debian, during the havok7 OH on the beta grid, last week
[16:59]	Eddi Decosta:	hmm xugu, do you have the jira fore usage cpu , cause i think is not fixed yet ... on 0.1
[16:59]	Pixeleen Mistral:	the group chat doe snot work very well
[16:59]	Pixeleen Mistral:	and we are limited to 25 groups
[16:59]	Xugu Madison	assumes we'd be on a permanent fix for group chat, which is a total re-architecture job
[16:59]	Pixeleen Mistral:	so maybe re-do chat and groups?
[17:00]	Andrew Linden:	Ok so Pixeleen's question is about group chat.
[17:00]	Xugu Madison:	AFAIK, currently group chat is routed through the sim, which means all sorts of tracking of locations and connection removal/addition as avatars teleport. So they need separate group chat servers...
[17:00]	Latif Khalifa:	after two years of complete breakage of group chat, it would be about time for something to be done about it
[17:00]	Andrew Linden:	What I've heard is that the team that would fix group chat has basically said, "We aren't going to fix group chat for a while."
[17:00]	Pixeleen Mistral:	and maybe support Jabber/XMPP so people can chat from outside SL
[17:01]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, did they actually say that, or did they just sob gently when asked? :)
[17:01]	Andrew Linden:	the reason is because they already have a bunch of stuff on their plate and just don't have the resources to get to group chat
[17:01]	ANSI Soderstrom:	jabber o/
[17:01]	Pixeleen Mistral:	ok - that is good to know
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	what that really means is that they are pushing back on the priorities that the executives and strategists have set for the various probjects that need to get done
[17:02]	Xugu Madison:	There was some experimental stuff where group chat was replaced by Jabber/XMPP using a proxy. I wonder if anyone will embed that properly into a viewer, go around the problem entirely
[17:02]	Pixeleen Mistral:	Facebook does Jabber now...
[17:02]	Charlette Proto:	am I alone thinking that Second Life™ has gone from having a few problems to just about everything borked in the last 12 months
[17:02]	Pixeleen Mistral:	Google does Jabber too
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	If you can reach the execs and product managers and convince them that group chat should take precidence over whatever has been scheduled already then they might be able to help you
[17:03]	Xugu Madison:	Charlette, nah, you're just noticing it more, I think... IMHO it's stabler, it just started REALLY bad :)
[17:03]	Pixeleen Mistral:	who shoudl I talk to?
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	but the team that would do the work is just over allocated and will not accept more work
[17:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I hope Mograine is going to read this chatlog. She's been kicking group IM for the last few months.
[17:03]	Latif Khalifa:	they're untouchable (and pretty clueless too :P)
[17:03]	Xugu Madison	kinda likes some of the priorities, especially if Firefly is on that list
[17:03]	Pixeleen Mistral:	M Linden, but who else could set priorities?
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	Good question. Who to talk to?
[17:04]	Xugu Madison	is frequently disappointed by lack of management office hours in-world
[17:04]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, have you seen this? http://blogs.secondlife.com/view-polls.jspa
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	M Linden is probably more available and approachable that some of the other individual who could move such projects around
[17:05]	Pixeleen Mistral:	ok, I'll see what I can do to persuade M
[17:05]	Pixeleen Mistral:	thanks - I've asked what I wanted to someone else should take over
[17:05]	Sebastean Steamweaver	wonders of M's email is formatted like all other lindens.
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Other people you could persuade if you could contact them: Michon, Fj, Gisele, Doug (maybe),
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones I interact with.
[17:06]	Rex Cronon:	wow ardy. 86% don't like viewer2?
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	I have not looked at the "Do you like Viewer 2?" poll yet.
[17:06]	Ardy Lay:	For some reason there are two identical polls there with nearly identical results.
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	No one at LL is surprised that there would be contention about Viewer 2.
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	The good news is that they are listening to some of the input and will be offering options to Viewer2 that will allow it to work like people want.
[17:07]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I think all we're really asking for is flexibility in how the viewer works.
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	LL has thrown all their bets into Viewer2. It isn't going away, but it will be fixed.
[17:08]	Xugu Madison:	Options? Sounds good!
[17:08]	Eddi Decosta:	Andrew, honestly the last 2.0.1 is perfect about fps use , bbut in cpu usage is very poor again, if the viewer could be use 25% of my e8400 , im happy,,
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	Er... the client group of LL has thrown all their bets into viewer2.
[17:08]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, I think your first statement was more accurate, actually :)
[17:09]	Charlette Proto:	everyone I know hates viewer 2 UI and very few noticed any rendering improvements, but some actually reported having illusions the rendering was better untill they looked at pics they took in the same environment
[17:09]	ANSI Soderstrom:	something about "multicore support" in the new viewer ?
[17:09]	ANSI Soderstrom:	in near future ?
[17:09]	Xugu Madison	likes parts of the Viewer 2 UI. The address/location bar, and notification/incoming object handling, especially.
[17:09]	Eddi Decosta:	the side bar not need to modify the inworld aspect ration each time i launch that tools
[17:09]	Eddi Decosta:	ratio*
[17:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18776
[17:09]	Features for	Regular Residents
[17:09]	Xugu Madison:	Inventory needs out of the sidebar, and build needs a button back, as my main two annoyances
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	ANSI, I don't know about multicore support plans for viewer2.
[17:10]	ANSI Soderstrom:	:(
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	I'd like to have the pie menu back as an option.
[17:10]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I would too, Andrew.
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	The vertical menu still gives me a rash.
[17:10]	Latif Khalifa	is wondering about Simon's multi-threading of rezzing avis, what version of sim is that in?
[17:10]	Xugu Madison:	I like the vertical menu, but things like "Delete" need to be top level
[17:10]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew: also, having profiles of objects and people tied to the sidebar, and blocking everything else out is a pain.
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	I'm assuming someone will put the pie back into snowglobe for the benefit of the world.
[17:11]	Rex Cronon:	if there could be an option to switch between the pie and the list...
[17:11]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, I hope that too
[17:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Maybe I should add pie menu to that JIRA.
[17:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	But, I'll have to do that later.
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Latif, Simons multithreading work will be in server-1.40. It was merged this week into the main codebase.
[17:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take care all - I need to dash for work before I'm late.
[17:11]	Charlette Proto:	I'd like the pie menu to be improved (beyond the fixed 8 slices) and brought back as an option, pie is the best UI tool for gesture (physical) computing UI
[17:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take care all :)
[17:11]	Rex Cronon:	tc sebastean
[17:11]	Charlette Proto:	byee seb
[17:11]	Xugu Madison:	Seeya Seb!
[17:12]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Thank you for the office hours Andrew,
[17:12]	Eddi Decosta:	Awndre , kirsten viewer, have a very nice approche on the old pie menue and the side bar ㋡
[17:12]	Eddi Decosta:	Andrew*
[17:12]	Xugu Madison:	Could we replace the pie menu with concentric circles, so 2nd and 3rd menu are actually rings around the 1st?
[17:12]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, pie menu you don't need to read the options, after a very short time it's muscle memory
[17:13]	Charlette Proto:	Xugu a better move if dynamic slice assignment
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	From my point of view the 3rd party viewers will help keep LL's viewer competitive.
[17:13]	helper is	ready and operational.
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	LL will eventually have to offer the UI that residents want, or lose out.
[17:13]	Charlette Proto:	precisely latif and the 2D pointing dexterity is reduced (can be) to +/- interactions
[17:14]	Ardy Lay:	Pie menu is awesome on touch screens.
[17:14]	Latif Khalifa:	Pie menu is just awesome
[17:14]	Ardy Lay:	That tiny vertical meny causes accidents.
[17:14]	Ardy Lay:	-meny +menu
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	As I mentioned before, I think LL shouldn't have kept the Viewer2 under wraps for so long.
[17:15]	Ardy Lay:	A lot of residents agree with you there Andrew.
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	They should have incrementally improved the main viewer instead of sitting on a big overhaul.
[17:15]	Latif Khalifa:	amen!
[17:15]	Xugu Madison	rather likes the idea of a server 2, BTW :)
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	well now that pie is dead we may as well shed a tear and forget we ever had the poor implementation of it
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	However that debate happened inside LL and we decided to try to make a bigger splash.
[17:16]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew; I can sympathise with wanting to get all the changes intended in before revealing, it's the fact they just carried on that confuses me
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	I'm hoping thaty they will have an era of more rapid incremental improvements
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	we'll see...
[17:16]	Ardy Lay:	A splash is just a crash over water.
[17:16]	Charlette Proto:	when you compare the old Second Life™ pie to the pie menu in Maya (and many other) it is like looking at a 1960s car dashboard
[17:17]	Xugu Madison	hmmmms "I love incremental improvements, but I've always got the impression your average user feels unsettled by them"
[17:17]	Ardy Lay:	Charlette, maybe we can bring it back in a good new form?
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	I'm also in favor of server2 actually...
[17:17]	Charlette Proto:	sorry what is that sound (kind of ike a frog) I'm getting sick of it
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	someone asked how long LL will support old bugs and misfeatures
[17:17]	Ardy Lay:	ANSI's pacifier
[17:18]	Xugu Madison:	Me! :)
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	the answer may be forever... unless we could do something like server-2
[17:18]	Xugu Madison:	(in response to Andrew)
[17:18]	Xugu Madison	WANTS server 2. Very much.
[17:18]	Charlette Proto:	agree Ardy, but going backward is always hard when it comes to finding candidates willing to take it on
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	but I'm not even sure if server2 is possible ... it is not clear if LL is flexible enough to do it
[17:18]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, any chance of maybe Alpha testing a Server-2 sort of thing?
[17:19]	Latif Khalifa:	what would be major architectual changes you would like to see in server2?
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Ardy, my idea of a server-2 would be something that broke support for a bunch of crappy misfeatures
[17:19]	Ardy Lay:	Sure, I understand that.
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	however, I don't think we could launch a complete server-2 in one delivery
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	it would have to be incremental to some degree
[17:20]	Xugu Madison:	I don't think we'll see a server 2 until we get grid-teleports working again, at the very least. Even if people can't directly move content, they need to be able to jump grids
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	so I'm not sure how possible it is... it might require creating a completely separate "world"
[17:20]	Charlette Proto:	haha jump grids - that is a dream
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	since lots of content from the old world wouldn't work in the new one
[17:20]	Ardy Lay:	What sort of content, I wonder?
[17:21]	Charlette Proto:	jump into Ruth avie every time or how?
[17:21]	Ardy Lay:	Physics stuff?
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	The main changes I'd like to see in server-2 would be a completely different script engine
[17:21]	Xugu Madison:	Charlette, you missed the OGP beta a couple of years ago, then? We were merrily teleporting from Aditi to Opensim
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	most of our "misfeatures" are script related.
[17:21]	Xugu Madison:	..even if arrived with no inventory....
[17:21]	Charlette Proto:	precisely andrew - assets and av and everything else - Second Life™ wasn't built to have universal URLs
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	It may be that script versioning will save us here, and we'll be able to incrementally help people leave the old ugly misfeatures behind.
[17:22]	Ardy Lay:	Xugu, that was just hacky login trick. ;-)
[17:22]	Xugu Madison	nods "I am thinking it might be a good idea to say you'll support script mis-features for, say, 8 years (so nothing's going yet) and just keep that sliding window..."
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right... there are some legacy asset stuff I'd like to see go away
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	A new asset format would be nice
[17:22]	Xugu Madison:	Ardy, I'm sure it was a fantastic bit of programming, really....
[17:22]	Latif Khalifa:	Andew, wouldn't an introduction of c# scripting be ideal to get rid of the misfeatures... and slowly obsolete the old broken apis?
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	yes Latif, that is what I meant by "script versioning".
[17:23]	Xugu Madison	remembers the OGP beta spewing some really random status messages. I think Batman was mentioned...
[17:23]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, a while back you mentioned the possibility of Server-2 meaning greatly improved performance on burrent hardware. What did you have in mind there?
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	That is what Babbage is calling one of the features of the C# plan: "script versioning".
[17:23]	Xugu Madison:	Although if we get a viewer 2, I think scripting needs a total rethink. Let me write:
[17:23]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, that would be great (and mono has support for it built in)
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	Ardy, there are some known bottlenecks in our simulator code that need to be rewritten: such as the "interestlist"
[17:24]	Ardy Lay:	-burrent +current
[17:24]	Xugu Madison:	new Cube(<1.0, 1.0, 1.0>);
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	however, I think we can overhaul the interestlist in the old simulator.
[17:24]	Xugu Madison:	or this.links[5].setTexture(this.links[5].side[1], myTexture);
[17:24]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I would like that intrest list not be fixes and just jump to the "streams" idea you had Andrew.
[17:25]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, smarter way of sending updates would greatly improve perceived rez speed
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	er.. that is what I meant -- convert the interestlist to be "subscribable streams"
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	that project is actually on the roadmap for 2010
[17:25]	Xugu Madison:	variable sized sims, while we're at it!
[17:25]	helper is	ready and operational.
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	er... the work would be done in 2010
[17:26]	Xugu Madison	is getting really fed up with being forced to have neighbours. It doesn't make sense..
[17:26]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Andrew, "subscribale streams" coupled with "http textures" would make things seem like 2006 again. :-)
[17:26]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, that would be doubly awesome if you could do it via IP multicast and make it possible to agents to have little effect on the region, sor of an observer mode that can be enabled for special events that are expected to have large attendance.
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, enough wishful thinking. It is pretty easy to come up with a big wishlist of what should be done.
[17:27]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe, yeah
[17:27]	Latif Khalifa:	hehe
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	It is much harder to actually do it.
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to head out now. Have a good weekend everyone.
[17:27]	Ardy Lay:	Bye Andrew
[17:27]	Latif Khalifa:	given infinte time and resources, everything is possible :)
[17:27]	Charlette Proto:	oops we are way overtime - I must run, have fun everyone and thanks Andrew
[17:27]	Rex Cronon:	u 2 andrew. tc
[17:27]	Xugu Madison:	Ardy, nothing out of a handful of research networks suppports multicast. You might as well ask about support for IPv6 (which would at least give you multicast as a pre-requisite)
[17:27]	Rex Cronon:	tc charlette
[17:27]	Latif Khalifa:	have a great weekend andrew :D
[17:27]	Xugu Madison:	See you Andrew, Charlette!
[17:28]	Charlette Proto:	XOXO
[17:28]	ANSI Soderstrom:	c u
[17:28]	Xugu Madison:	Sorry, I'm rantly about the stupidity of nothing supporting multicast
[17:28]	Ardy Lay:	Xugu, the multicast domain doesn't have to be huge to remove the replication workload from the simulator host.
[17:28]	Ardy Lay:	Let a multi-layer ASIC switch in the same rack handle that.
[17:29]	Xugu Madison:	Ardy, you mean have LL do multicast inside their nork, and replicate at the edges?
[17:29]	Xugu Madison:	network, even
[17:29]	Ardy Lay:	Yes
[17:29]	Xugu Madison:	I think my brain has melted
[17:29]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I'me out of here. That baby been driving me nuts.
[17:29]	Xugu Madison:	Seeya Techwolf!
[17:29]	Rex Cronon:	tc techwolf
[17:29]	Ardy Lay:	Subscription edge
[17:29]	Ardy Lay:	That kind of scaling stuff exists already.
[17:31]	ANSI Soderstrom:	yaay
[17:31]	Xugu Madison	nods "It's an interesting idea..."
[17:31]	Xugu Madison	wants IPv6. And a pony
[17:32]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe, have a look at how switched digital video distribution systems work.

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