User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 05 04

Transcript

[10:55]	Tillie Ariantho:	Jonathan: Ah, the avatar from that funny childrens movie. :)
[10:55]	Jonathan Yap:	Yup Tillie :)
[10:55]	Tillie Ariantho:	=)
[10:55]	Uni Ninetails:	^^
[10:55]	Jonathan Yap:	Chantal made another one the other day, I was in that as a surfer dude
[10:55]	Jonathan Yap:	That one was just for fun
[10:55]	Tillie Ariantho:	I have seen one small problem with the movie, though.
[10:55]	Jonathan Yap:	She tried 3 other actors before me, but they could not surf :)
[10:56]	Jonathan Yap:	I have an idea what the problem is
[10:56]	Jonathan Yap:	Can't see the eyes for numbers 7..10 because they are behind thehead?
[10:56]	Tillie Ariantho:	Yup.
[10:56]	Jonathan Yap:	yea, I saw that right off too
[10:57]	Tillie Ariantho:	And for children it already starts to get hard after 4 eyes to follow it...
[10:57]	Jonathan Yap:	and they show them for too short of a time
[10:57]	Tillie Ariantho:	It should go up to 6 only, then it would be better, less confusing. :)
[10:57]	Jonathan Yap:	I imagine she was constrained by the rules of the contest
[10:57]	Tillie Ariantho:	yah.
[10:58]	Jonathan Yap:	At first the sesame street people would not allow the video, they thought it was captured from a game
[10:58]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Andrew
[10:59]	Andrew Linden:	Hi
[10:59]	Cerdita Piek:	Hello everyone :)
[10:59]	Uni Ninetails:	hi folks
[10:59]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Simon
[10:59]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[10:59]	Faust Vollmar:	Did I make it. =o
[10:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hey Simon
[11:00]	Faust Vollmar:	Back to back OH's, but will be glad that this one isnt so controvertial (dont mind my horrible spelling.)
[11:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Pardon my unalphaed legs, I'm Emerald for the local texture feature.
[11:00]	Welcome to	Linden office hours
[11:00]	Jonathan Yap:	What was the previous one Faust?
[11:00]	Faust Vollmar:	Commerce
[11:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	What came up in Commerce?
[11:01]	Ardy Lay:	I bet that one is a real blast.
[11:01]	Faust Vollmar:	The whole new Marketplace thing.
[11:01]	Faust Vollmar:	A blast indeed.
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	Ah, right, I'm sure there is confusion and fear about the commerce plans
[11:01]	Uni Ninetails:	seb: hows the 1.3 alpha treating ya?
[11:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I don't really like attending their OH's, it's all in voice.
[11:01]	Faust Vollmar:	I need to stick to low-key OH's like Andrews here or Babbage's
[11:01]	Faust Vollmar:	Hahaha
[11:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Voice is hard to keep track of for people like myself.
[11:01]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	I think that after the 28th, there's just confusion and fear.
[11:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Uni: 1.3 has wires showing, but it's ok.
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Well, maybe we can make this one controversial. We'll see.
[11:02]	Uni Ninetails:	Megaprims? *ducks
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	megaprims?
[11:02]	Uni Ninetails:	LOL
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	make what controversial?
[11:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Just be careful of the local texture feature if you use bumpmapping - it looks nicer than it actually will if you upload.
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Megaprims for noobs only?
[11:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Megaprims are hardly a controv- ok, Andrew proved me wrong.
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	Maybe we should bump the limit up to 11m, Andrew ;)
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	u mean i have to make an alt to make megaprims?
[11:02]	Uni Ninetails:	>.>
[11:03]	Tillie Ariantho:	Voice is bad for international meetings, several people use the auto-translate feature, that fails for voice. ^^
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Sure, but down to 9.5 on Wednesdays.
[11:03]	Uni Ninetails:	actually go for it 11m helps me a lot
[11:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	You fail at controversy ;)
[11:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	How about llMatchGroup?
[11:03]	Faust Vollmar:	Aaaaaa
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	people have used megaprims for years, and the grid still stands
[11:03]	Bronson Blackadder:	please...20 meters
[11:03]	Uni Ninetails:	M Lindne annunces prims limits down to 1m is promptly vanished XD
[11:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver	detaches his left hip before it can talk.
[11:03]	Bronson Blackadder:	anymore then that and people are just being silly
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	so why not allow max size to be at least 256x256x256, and be editable?
[11:04]	Uni Ninetails:	20m is reasonable yes
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	I couldn't make it to OH on Friday. There was some problem with voice on the mainland
[11:04]	Liisa Runo:	20meters not enough, rather DEBUG_CHANNEL nice round number
[11:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Actually Bronson, I would be a proponent of 256^x3 ;)
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	and I was trying to help figure out how to fix it.
[11:04]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[11:04]	Bronson Blackadder:	meow
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Turns out... it wasn't really fixable in an elegant way. They had to do a lot of legwork.
[11:05]	Faust Vollmar:	Any news for us Andrew or Simon? Or will we be having a chat hour today?
[11:05]	Ardy Lay:	I frequently use a 30m cube over dance floors.
[11:05]	Jonathan Yap:	Was that a result of the datacenter outage?
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	But maybe I'll spend some time this week thinking about how to prevent it from happening again. It is on my TODO list.
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	No, the voice problem was a momentary misconfiguration of the mainland estate.
[11:05]	Sebastean Steamweaver	thinks Andrew looks like a genie, with unrezzed irises.
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	Let's see ... 1.40 is supposed to go onto Aditi soon, I think ... let me see if I can find the dates...
[11:06]	Faust Vollmar:	Ooh thats gonna be fun. See how many bullets I can make a sim handle under H7, hahahaha.
[11:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	You don'tsee his head as Grey?
[11:06]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Anything fun we can look forward to in 1.40?
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think server-1.40 has been brancheed yet, but it should happen soon.
[11:06]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	Can you give us some sort of summary of what went wrong. All I've heard are rumours.
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	Looks like Friday should have 1.40 on the beta grid
[11:07]	Tillie Ariantho:	Seb: Comes with new ToS then, horses not allowed on SL anymore then. :P
[11:07]	Uni Ninetails:	Region windlight? *looks hopefull, parcel encroachment?
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	I made some changes to the region crossing code, so would like to work with people to see if the effect is noticable
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	WolfBaginski, summary of what? The voice issues or something else?
[11:07]	Faust Vollmar:	Yay. Now I just need to get some friends or find a way to beat GGF to bring a sim to its knees with bullleeetsss.
[11:07]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Wolf: it became apparent that people had become so accustomed to voice, they no longer knew how to type, and thus were at a loss for communication ;)
[11:07]	Faust Vollmar:	Even though 80 a second couldnt to it.
[11:07]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	The big crash.
[11:07]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, did you test sim exit code too?
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	We have tested that ... someone is working on it
[11:08]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, in my experience it can be as bad as sim entry
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, the big crash. No I don't want to talk about that, especially if LL hasn't blogged arout it yet.
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	There's definitely lag caused by all the time to serialize stuff, and I'm hopeful we can make it better
[11:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Those who rely on Voice, will someday need the fire department to rescue them from a stalled escalator.
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	There's an obvious quick-and-dirty way to do it, but it would leave the code messy and less maintainable, so I'd rather find a better way
[11:09]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, also killing of running scripts on avatar derez
[11:09]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	Well, I could speculate, but it's pretty poor design if something could take down a service using multiple data centres.
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	The big crash wasn't really a problem with our software or network configuration... there was an unexpected "event" in one of our co-location facilities.
[11:10]	Simon Linden:	yeah, scripts seem to contribute the most to the data payload that has to be passed to the next simulator. Unfortunately that's a bigger task, since it would be more UI and another flag to carry around telling if the script needs to pass state or not
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	We are using multiple data centers. However this event was big enough, and in the wrong center, to break SL
[11:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	On the open grid, Events will be a daily occurence.
[11:11]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, at least it could be passed to "derez" thread if you're doing multithreading, so the main sim loop doesn't freeze
[11:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	The Internet was originally designed to survive a nuclear strike at any point.
[11:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Simon- definitely one you'll want to consider before the "big scripts" project though.
[11:11]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	Arawn, not really.
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	Yes ... I may see if I can get some of Babbage and Kelly's attention on this one, since it's in the script system
[11:12]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Well, considering it was practically invented by the military, it wouldn't surprise me if it were.
[11:12]	Uni Ninetails:	So what would be a reasonable maximum mem for an average avatar? (not asking for actual limits just some advice)
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	It was meant, so Scientists, Armies and Government Contractors could compare notes, while recovering from such disasters.
[11:13]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	92 Mb! :D (joking for those who weren't at Babbage's office hours)
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	I haven't heard of any real numbers on memory limits yet
[11:13]	Jonathan Yap:	For history buffs: http://www.thadlabs.com/FILES/ARPANET_Sept_1982.pdf
[11:13]	Uni Ninetails:	im shooting for 800k according to the mem thing.
[11:14]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Uni, from what I've heard it will be more generous than that.
[11:14]	Faust Vollmar:	12.5 scripts, wow that'd be a rather large shift in sl life.
[11:14]	Uni Ninetails:	better lower than higher opencollar bites hard. thats getting the chop.
[11:14]	Liisa Runo:	if it is too small people will just start having ALT account follow them to places to get more mem.
[11:14]	Uni Ninetails:	Pair of boots, 5 meg each those got ganked.
[11:15]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Liisa, I doubt that'll happen, but it will break content if it gets put that low, and mem limits were specifically said not to break much content.
[11:15]	Faust Vollmar:	The resizer thing is a huge can o worms of its own accord.
[11:15]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I think they will err on the side of safety, and it'll probably be a few Mb.
[11:15]	Uni Ninetails	nods
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Huh? Liisa, what would they do with an alt account following them? Load it up with attachment scripts?
[11:15]	Jonathan Yap:	I would like to see the inspect window show a breakdown of scripts per prim in an object, that way you could identify what might need rewriting or deleting
[11:15]	Faust Vollmar:	Although I will say I know the script counts of a few combat systems and a fair few use a fair number of scripts.
[11:15]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Things with 20Mbs of scripts though, will probably get chopped.
[11:16]	Simon Linden:	I'm pretty sure they're going to phase anything in very carefullly ... first get the information out and make it a lot easier to see who's at what usage, etc before anything gets decided or enforced
[11:16]	Uni Ninetails:	i looked at DCS on beta grid many moons ago and cringed
[11:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	We can't just disable scripts in particular attachments?
[11:16]	Liisa Runo:	yes Andrew
[11:16]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It's important to note that currently, script memory counts are -not- accurate.
[11:17]	Faust Vollmar:	Uni: Yeah. I kinda wonder how the heck you could need that many. My pet project only uses 10 total.
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, we're going to finally start limiting the script resources of avatars and their scripts? Probably a good thing.
[11:17]	Uni Ninetails:	Problems guidelines Simon. having somthing sooner even if vague helps the community et large get into the stride early and aids the transition.
[11:17]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	They only show the maximum amount of memory available to scripts, not how much they are actually using (for mono).
[11:17]	Jonathan Yap:	I had the feeling limits would be turned on this fall at some point
[11:17]	Latif Khalifa:	any tentative schedule on mono upgrade? 1.42, .44?
[11:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Limiting is a good thing, but limiting too much is the worry.
[11:18]	Simon Linden:	Sorry, I haven't heard any updates on the mono schedule
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know the state of that script limit project, do you Simon? I'm not sure what exactly Babbage is working on these days.
[11:18]	Uni Ninetails	nods grimly "for me im more concerned about goods ive bought not my stuff. 20 line codes when you give me a way to set the mem ill do it.
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	the problem with scripts is not just how much mem they r using, but also what they r doing
[11:19]	Simon Linden:	I think the big push is to the new version of Mono ... the bug fixes for loading time were a failure because we're running on such an old version
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	what creates teh lag is not the memory, but their activities
[11:19]	Simon Linden:	So for pretty much any progress we have to switch to a newer version
[11:19]	Uni Ninetails:	Rex: when they ave the whole grid 8 regions per server.... its gonna bite.
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... they are probably working on that. Babbage has hired a dev who knows a bit about MONO. I'm guessing they are currently working to upgrade our MONO version.
[11:20]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	My biggest beef with limits is this, which has been obviously, somewhat addressed thusfar: Scripters have been forced to do things very inefficiently for a very long time, which has caused bloat in the script sizes. Many things wouldn't be as big as they are if we had been given more efficient tools. Now that we are getting more efficient tools, that will start to go down, but the old content is still there and needs to be replaced.
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	I wonder if anyone in LL has real numbers about performance of our class 5 vs 7 servers ... I thought the 7s were much better even with 8 regions
[11:20]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	And, our problem isn't totally solved yet. There are still areas we need improvements to be more efficient.
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	if u have a big script that just waits for events, and one that is smalll but is contnuosly processing things, the one that is small will have the biggest impact
[11:21]	Faust Vollmar:	And in many places, namely resizers, simply will not be replaced in a large number of cases.
[11:21]	Uni Ninetails:	simon: heard mixed views id like to see some figures
[11:21]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'd like them to finish giving us efficient function calls, and then start imposing the limits when we've had time to recode.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, the issue of legacy content comes up all the time, not just for scripts
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	it is a big problem with making progress with the SL engine.
[11:22]	Uni Ninetails:	Should see some lighting with Deffered rendering on, saw a chandelier that washed out an entire 20m radius
[11:22]	Faust Vollmar	even has a pair of boots he cannot remove the scripts from. No mod and the creator explicitly turned off the "remove scripts" menu option. Not naming names.
[11:22]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'm fine with letting legacy turn to history, as I've said before, as long as we have efficient ways to replace it. I don't want to be stuck with having to use the same inefficient processes to do things when limits are being imposed.
[11:22]	Uni Ninetails:	oo that 5 meg pair i mentioed... remove scripts would work in emerald i had to go through em prim by prim :S
[11:23]	Uni Ninetails:	*wouldnt
[11:23]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	i.e. text on a prim face needing to use things like Xy text.
[11:23]	Liisa Runo:	exactly what Rex said, for example i rather use some memory to store collected data than constantly recollect the data over and over again
[11:24]	Faust Vollmar:	The whole script efficiency thing has kinda stuck itself into a Catch 22 between Limits and C#
[11:24]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot	sighs. "You have a budget to upgrade servers. I'm stuck with my computer."
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I was going to give what little news I have:
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	All of my maintenance work has been merged for server-1.40. I don't really have much code that is pending testing.
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Most of the bugs fixed have been mentioned before, months ago.
[11:25]	Ardy Lay:	I have already seen people using the new "fast" object update function in a tight loop simulating animation. She was generating over 500kb/s of object update traffic wit an animated tenticle. Nasty
[11:25]	Uni Ninetails:	offt.
[11:25]	Faust Vollmar:	Holy jesus.
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	I need to go through the public jira and update them. I'll try to do that today.
[11:26]	Tillie Ariantho:	Ardy: I use them too in 2 of my HUD scripts. But I could remove 35 other scripts because of those new commands in the same HUD. ;)
[11:26]	Faust Vollmar:	And I thought I felt bad for using it for the settext in my project's HUD...
[11:26]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Ardy - are you sure that was the only part of that generating traffic?
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	WolfB... that's an interesting point. We're finding more and more people are using low end computers like netbooks, so there's a push to make the experience work better with less hardware
[11:26]	Ardy Lay:	Yes
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Today I've been trying to triage our internal buglist, sorting and making sure the various parameters are set right.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	I've found a bunch of small bugs that are really easy to fix, so I'll probably try to take a swing at those just to get them out of the way.
[11:27]	Liisa Runo:	:)
[11:27]	Faust Vollmar	hopes sensor/lldetectedtype + seated avs is among that.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Then I'm going to try to get back to focusing on region crossing bugs.
[11:27]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Simon: at some point, people have to realize that there is a tradeoff in experience and versatility. If you get a low-power computer, you're trading off experience. If you get higher-powered machines, you get more experience.
[11:27]	Susie Chaffe:	yeag
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	I think most people realized that Sebastean.
[11:28]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	Simon, this machine is a bit above netbook level, butthere's a lot of cheap, new, hardware out there. SL on your HDTV? It'll likely not be a ht#ot gamer PC.
[11:28]	Simon Linden:	Right ... I think the surprise is that the trend isn't what it used to be ... before, it always seemed to go to more hardware and power, but now it's not
[11:29]	Liisa Runo:	SL runs somewhat nicely with the (gaming) computer i bought 10years ago
[11:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	Some Elderly are on fixed resources, and Non-Profits doin't lay out for a lot of video game-cards, so accomodating my 2004 system is probably a good idea.
[11:29]	Simon Linden:	There are more slow graphics built into netbooks, and more people keeping old machines than before because they are adequate for basic browsing and email
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	I dunno... the trend was there years ago... we called it the "Intel Extreme Graphics problem".
[11:30]	Uni Ninetails:	.me hisses
[11:30]	Arawn Spitteler	might have Intel Extreme Graphics
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Intel had marketed some of their graphics chipsets as "Extreme Graphics", but they were woefully underpowered compated to nVidia and ATI chipsets.
[11:30]	office hours	is half over
[11:30]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	Abd Sebastian, Linden Lab have to find these things called customers. They either have to do something like an XBox or Playstation version of the Viewer, or be trapped in a shrinking gamer PC market.
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	But people who didn't know better would buy the intel stuff thinking they were getting a gaming machine.
[11:31]	Simon Linden:	yep, it's not like it happened yesterday. I'm just saying there's more awareness here as we look at new users and what they have ... there's a really high percentage that come in with inadequate hardware, and just can't get a usable frame rate
[11:31]	Arawn Spitteler	wonders if it's time for ritual mention of SVC-22, SVC-93, SVC-2931 and Sheep
[11:31]	llSetLinkPrimitiveParams content	breakage, only moves agents 54 meters now
[11:31]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[11:31]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[11:31]	Simon Linden:	I really should add a sheep rezzer to that...
[11:31]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Wolf: I'm a merchant here, I'm pretty familiar with the needs of attracting a customer base ;)
[11:31]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I don't think the gamer-PC crowd is shrinking as much as you might imagine. Just look at games like Warhammer and WoW.
[11:32]	Faust Vollmar:	Couldnt hurt to pipe up about LOCAL_POS for the GetPrimParams area I guess? XD
[11:32]	Faust Vollmar:	I managed to break the single-script resizer.
[11:32]	Liisa Runo:	ritual: SVC-422
[11:32]	A solution	to scams, money theft - etc. New parcels Flag "Block Transactions
[11:32]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	POS/ROT yes
[11:32]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Faust: breaking the signle-script resizer is unfortunately, not hard to do.
[11:32]	Faust Vollmar:	It took more effort than I thought though.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Back in 2003 SL ran ok on an nVidia GeForce 3. These days the latest Intel Extreme Graphics chips are several times more powerful than the GeForce3.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	What has happened is that the SL viewer has expanded what it is trying to do.
[11:33]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It can frequently depend on "sim weather" where lag is more or less of a problem, for certain types of breakage, like prim drift.
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	I think there is plenty of room to lower the work done to render the SL graphics, at a loss of quality of course.
[11:34]	Faust Vollmar:	The floating point thing is a right pain. o_O
[11:34]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Floating point, movement, all kinds of nasties.
[11:34]	Uni Ninetails:	Thought you did pretty well with V2's renderer its very quick to me...
[11:34]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	SVC-2885
[11:34]	llSetObjectScale and	llGetObjectScale
[11:35]	Faust Vollmar:	Yeah that one is one I've been holding out for but am not holding my breath.
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Haven't we got llGetBoundingBox?
[11:35]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Arawn, llGetBoundingBox does not return an accurate measurement for attachments, and it requires list operations to get the scale.
[11:35]	Liisa Runo:	list nomnom = llGetSimulatorAgentKeys(SORT_BY_DISTANCE);
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	That's just a matter of not having efficient functions.
[11:35]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	llGetBoundingBox returns a list with the max/min corners.
[11:36]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Given a choice, I'd rather use a consistent single function call rather than 3 and an operation, to get the same info.
[11:36]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	And there is the attachment problem, which is an important one.
[11:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	For attachments, it always returns the equivalent of <0.2,0.2,0.2>
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	Also annoying, we can't get the size of a sitting avatar, for seat adjustment
[11:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Faust: there is hope. Babbage said he would be willing to look into letting ti be implemented when there was time. A "Yes definitely" when I asked.
[11:38]	Faust Vollmar:	Yay.
[11:38]	Faust Vollmar:	Many other things I wish I could have but alas. =p
[11:38]	Faust Vollmar:	One nice thing doesnt hurt.
[11:38]	Faust Vollmar:	=p
[11:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	PRIM_REGION_POS would be another :)
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Well, as the one who would probably implement llSetObjectScale(), I'll put it on the big list of things to do.
[11:39]	Tillie Ariantho:	HUD positions are as bad.
[11:39]	Faust Vollmar	is hoping for llGetInventoryHash() and some more reasonable means of passing data to a rezzed object on a time sensitive basis that Listens are too unreliable for.
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	It really shouldn't be very hard, but I woudl submit it to Babbage and let him decide when to ship it.
[11:40]	Faust Vollmar:	Those are my big DO WANTs haha.
[11:40]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	That would be wonderful Andrew !
[11:40]	Faust Vollmar:	Andrew: Nice.
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	What is the llGetInventoryHash() feature request?
[11:40]	Liisa Runo	whispers: no need to ask Babbage, hes not your mom, just do it
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Does that one have a jira # yet?
[11:40]	Faust Vollmar:	Yeah one sec.
[11:41]	Faust Vollmar:	SVC-5345 I think
[11:41]	LSL Function	to get a salted hash of inventory items asset ID
[11:41]	Faust Vollmar:	Purely a verification function... I'd be looking at it for verifying objects rather than scripts.
[11:42]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot	looks puzzled. "Why?"
[11:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Faust, what information would you want it to incorporate for the hash?
[11:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Wolf: probably to make sure inventory hadn't changed.
[11:42]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	But you have the UUID...
[11:43]	Faust Vollmar:	Wolf: Verification by llGetInventoryKey would require full permissions of the items.
[11:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	That's right, we can't identify what item was last added, or who added it.
[11:43]	Faust Vollmar:	The point of the Hash is to remove that restriction.
[11:43]	Faust Vollmar:	Without being a content risk (hence it being a hashed UUID, which the framework already exists for when using llGetInventoryKey on objects and scripts.)
[11:44]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	Oh? Copyright Paranoia?
[11:44]	Faust Vollmar:	Combat System.
[11:44]	Faust Vollmar:	Cheat protection
[11:45]	Rex Cronon:	?
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... if such a hash were accessible, it should probably also include the permissions settings in the salt.
[11:45]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot	is only a bear of very little brain.
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, I wonder if there are other ideas that might help with cheat protection ... like limiting what scripts can run in a region, or similar
[11:45]	Faust Vollmar:	As long as it doesnt create fuss between the creator who likely has full perms and the end user who liked doesn't, I dont see any problem with that Andrew
[11:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	That's right, are we on track, to identify who's stopping the vehicles, by selection?
[11:46]	Uni Ninetails:	how about a syste that doesnt rely on firing prims for guns...
[11:47]	Faust Vollmar:	Raycasting is a whole nother can of worms really, and it would mess up AoE type weapons.
[11:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Uni: Falcon has spoken of that before actually.
[11:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	He responded to aJIRA I made that follows that thought.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Oh yeah, object selection stuff... that is on my larger list of things to do.
[11:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Faust, not necessarily :)
[11:47]	Liisa Runo:	selected(integer num) { key griefer = llDetectedKey(0); ...
[11:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Falcon was talking about something called "bumpers" which would work very nicely for AoEs.
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know when I'll be able to get to fixing selection, but it up there with prim encroachment and megaprims as far as things I'd like to get done.
[11:48]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5381
[11:48]	Create llCastRay	for raytracing operations
[11:48]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Read the JIRA and falcon's comments
[11:48]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	(when you have time)
[11:48]	Uni Ninetails:	be nice if it lessened load
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	what are "AoE type weapons"?
[11:49]	Chaley May:	explosions
[11:49]	Uni Ninetails:	Area of effect
[11:49]	Liisa Runo:	Automatically Own Everyone
[11:50]	Faust Vollmar:	Seb: Bumpers and Cast Shapes would work if I were sending out chat one message at a time for every detected avatar but AoE uses one channel and a range check within the message itself.
[11:50]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Basically, if you're in a given area, the weapon detects you and says "You're damaged."
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Well, AoE weapons would still work. The ray cast stuff would be a new feature.
[11:51]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	The obvious thing is that projectiles have a set speed. Important with a moving target. Would this raycasting stuff?
[11:51]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Faust: I'm not familiar with your combat system, but I was thinking more having the thing setting up the bumper detecting an avatar's proximity to X location.
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	No, raycasting would be instantaneous. Lasers, essentially.
[11:52]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	So you wouldn't even necessarily have to rez a separate objects.
[11:52]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	So it wouldn't replace projectiles.
[11:52]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Wolf: you can impose your own speed, in the script.
[11:52]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It's just a bit of math really.
[11:52]	Faust Vollmar:	Seb: Right, the problem with it is not so much the use of raycast itself but conserns with how much processing time is added by having to use llRegionSay instead of say llWhisper
[11:53]	Faust Vollmar:	Which means every Unit on sim has to check the message they recieved.
[11:53]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot	hehs.
[11:53]	Faust Vollmar:	I wouldnt mind switching to raycast, even though the laser factor is a consern, if there was a "projected" say/whisper/etc
[11:53]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Faust, I'm not sure how llRegionSay vs. Whisper is affected by using a bumper?
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	The raycasting would use the physics engine, so it would be quite fast.
[11:54]	Faust Vollmar:	Seb: its not the detection itself. Its the chat processing.
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Of course it would have to be throttled, and of limited length.
[11:55]	Faust Vollmar:	I carefully manage how many units have to process messages as best to my abilities, using raycasts for AoE stuff would muck that up a fair bit.
[11:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Bumpers are a bit different than raycasts.
[11:55]	office hours	is almost over
[11:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Bumpers are basically areas that can trigger a collision event, without having the prim there to collide with.
[11:55]	Arawn Spitteler	wonders if tight beam shouting could be feasible, but that would be a wildly new feature.
[11:56]	Faust Vollmar	whispers: Still the same issue, I need to be able to drop a short-range message from the "
[11:56]	Faust Vollmar:	bumper's" location
[11:56]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Ah-ha, I see what you're saying now.
[11:56]	Faust Vollmar:	Lol at my haste typing.
[11:56]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Sorry it took me a bit.
[11:56]	Uni Ninetails:	Seems apparent LL need to consider a focused "gaming" toolset for scripters. or some kind of plugin thingy.
[11:56]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	I think I'll go learn Morse, and use a lamp/
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	Heliography?
[11:57]	Jonathan Yap:	Learning morse is not hard, at least not for 5 words/minute
[11:57]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I think LL needs to focus on expanding the script API as a whole, but I suspect that's mostly coming after C#.
[11:57]	WolfBaginski Bearsfoot:	Maybe semaphone
[11:57]	Faust Vollmar:	If I kept using bullets for that, we go back to the security risk of not being able to verify I'm passing data to a bullet I made or someone managed (it would take a roundabout manner but if someone figured it out its quite easy) to sneak in one for picking up data.
[11:57]	Liisa Runo:	llClearChatQueue(); llClearLinkMessageQueue(); and similar things would be usefull in many toys
[11:57]	Tillie Ariantho:	yup
[11:57]	Rex Cronon:	not a plugin. it needs to be part of the standard package
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... those probably would be useful.
[11:58]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Better channels of communication between prims would help here.
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Could you elaborate on how those would be used?
[11:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	For that matter, an llAgentSay function would be useful.
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	We can use an http server, to let a prim know that it's been pinged, but can we get the URL?
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	When would you want to clear the ChatQueu?
[11:59]	Tillie Ariantho:	Something like a simple llReply() would be nice, where you chatreply to a message directly. ^^
[11:59]	Liisa Runo:	for example script that listens something could ignore all queued messages when n-message is recieved and not process the queued messages
[11:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Arawn - http servers are very useful, but a little heavy for certain things.
[12:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	there are situations where a llMessagePrim(key,message,integer) would be much more useful for non-linked objects.
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if destroying the listener and rebuilding it would clear out the pending chat queue
[12:00]	Faust Vollmar:	Seb: Sorry about my overly vague attempts to explain what I was getting at on the Chat thing. Anyway. llGetInventoryHash and the ability to pass a string across llRezObject would cover the whole problem then and done for me, although I don't know if it would for everyone with similar issues.
[12:00]	Thank you	for coming to Linden office hours
[12:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Faust: I can think of many uses for conveying a sctring across a rez, but that might be difficult to implement.
[12:01]	Faust Vollmar:	If it could be done llDetected* style it might be feasible atleast.
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	So is the string used to send info to the newly rezzed object?
[12:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yes Simon
[12:01]	Faust Vollmar:	That would be the intent, yes. Much faster and much more reliable than chat or even the proposed llMessagePrim
[12:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Right now, for example, in my objects, I have to do a lot of back and forth talk to make sure that the rezzed object only "pays attention" to the object that rezzed it, since the rezzed object is pretty oblivious to its rezer.
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	it would also be good if such a string would be at least 1024 byets:)
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	bytes*
[12:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Faust, llMessagePrim was more meant for other things, really, not so much the rezzing situation.
[12:02]	Faust Vollmar:	Oh wow Noon already... Now I feel bad about chewing up half an office hour.
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	yeah, I think if we ever got to it we'd have to see if it should be a string or any other value ... like a list or such
[12:03]	Uni Ninetails:	dont be interesting to listen
[12:03]	Arawn Spitteler	imagines Faust spitting out half an office hour
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I've got to go at least. Lots of work to do.
[12:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Simon: say that the "string" passed were the key of the object that rezzed it, so it can filter info it recieves.
[12:03]	Uni Ninetails:	ty andrew, have a good day!
[12:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	A list would be handy too.
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for coming ... see you next time
[12:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Thank you Andrew, and Simon
[12:03]	Cerdita Piek:	Thank you Simon, Andrew. Take care :)
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew, simon
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	Bye all
[12:03]	Uni Ninetails:	Okies byye simon!
[12:03]	Liisa Runo	is exeptionally happy today: *hugs everyone*
[12:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	:D
[12:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver	hugs back.
[12:04]	Ardy Lay:	Bye Simon, Andrew

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