User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 05 07

Transcript

[16:01]	Ashiri Sands:	hi Andrew
[16:01]	Xugu Madison:	Been busy trying to figure out how we explain a giant project isn't going to work!
[16:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hey Andrew
[16:01]	Bug Hilltop:	allo
[16:01]	Andrew Linden:	Hello.
[16:02]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[16:02]	Andrew Linden:	Simon will be late today. He'd got to pick his car up from the shop before it closes.
[16:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, for that, Xugu, just have everybody ask for transfer to a more challenging project.
[16:02]	Jonathan Yap:	I had to pick mine up too before it closed
[16:02]	Ashiri Sands:	lol
[16:02]	Xugu Madison:	Arawn, I like it :)
[16:02]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, announcements...
[16:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It's always a little shock of reality when you realize that lindens aren't digital living entities that solely exist in the SL grid :)
[16:02]	Ashiri Sands:	yes, even in SL there are impossible things
[16:03]	Xugu Madison:	at the least, everyone told us it was impossible, so it's more how to save face than anything else
[16:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	The impossible takes a little longer. We can jira for the needed new features later.
[16:03]	Andrew Linden:	I was talking with a colleague here at LL about what was going to be in server-1.42
[16:04]	Andrew Linden:	Not a whole lot that would be interesting here, I think, but I was interested
[16:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ain't this the under the hood crew?
[16:04]	Andrew Linden:	we'll be trying tcmalloc out again (google perftools memory allocator) in 1.42 I think
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	and there is a bunch of in-house performance analysis tool going into the simulators
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	so hopefully 1.42 will let us drill down into some performance problems.
[16:05]	Patty1 Rosca:	sorry whos head i landed on
[16:05]	Xugu Madison:	Excellent!
[16:05]	Patty1 Rosca:	and i just tp in 2 ithers
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	meanwhile, server-1.40 has some initial performance improvments that we've already talked about.
[16:06]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew have you been on the test server ?
[16:06]	Andrew Linden:	We're planning on overhauling the intrestlist this year. I've mentioned it before, but it came up in conversation again today and I was thinking about it.
[16:06]	Andrew Linden:	It is definitely on the plan... maybe we'll start doing design work in June.
[16:07]	Andrew Linden:	I think Simon might be working on the interestlist overhaul.
[16:07]	Xugu Madison:	Good luck!
[16:07]	Andrew Linden:	What test server are you referring to xstorm?
[16:07]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, that's good to hear. There are times it just doesn't send me what I am interested in. ;-)
[16:07]	xstorm Radek:	Aditi and havok 7 ?
[16:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Same interestlist since 2002?
[16:08]	Andrew Linden:	No, I haven't played around much with Havok7.
[16:08]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, the interestlist hasn't changed since... probably 2002.
[16:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Ow
[16:09]	Andrew Linden:	It is the main bottleneck for increasing avatar density in a simulator
[16:09]	Andrew Linden:	that is, a lot of the lag that scales with avatar count is in the interestlist.
[16:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	So, better interestlist == less lag.
[16:09]	Andrew Linden:	I'm a little bummed that I won't be working on it, but OTOH I've got lots of other stuff to do.
[16:10]	xstorm Radek:	there is some sort of problem with sculpt mesh loading for some people and physics for some people
[16:10]	Andrew Linden:	BTW, this week I think I fixed the ViewerEffect abuse problem while working on some other stuff.
[16:10]	xstorm Radek:	it seem that the older viewers are not working with sculps and physics to good
[16:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, is the interestlist something you'd like to work on?
[16:11]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, I'd like to work on the interestlist, but having others work on it is almost as good.
[16:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hehe
[16:11]	Patty1 Rosca:	Andrew have you had anyone complain about sl log out issues?
[16:12]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, what do you mean that older viewers arent' working with sculpts and physics?
[16:12]	Patty1 Rosca:	everytime i log out I have to go to task manager to close sl
[16:12]	Andrew Linden:	viewers don't do any physics really.
[16:12]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm...
[16:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	PAtty might have client side issues
[16:13]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Patty, that's probably something for Samuel/Nyx's office hours, or bug triage.
[16:13]	Patty1 Rosca:	just was woundering if anyone else had this issue
[16:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Occassionally
[16:13]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Sometimes the client crashes when I close it, but I haven't had it hang.
[16:13]	Andrew Linden:	Not much changed with sculpt code server-side... there was very little there to begin with.
[16:13]	Ashiri Sands:	only had similar issue when SLVoice did not close correctly
[16:13]	xstorm Radek:	from what some people told me when they come to trendone they crash or have problems but only people on older viewers
[16:14]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	xStorm, have they tried clearing their cache?
[16:14]	Andrew Linden:	Trendone rings a bell. What is significant about that region?
[16:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sounds like Data Overload
[16:14]	xstorm Radek:	class 7 sim
[16:14]	xstorm Radek:	and lots of sculps
[16:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sounds like the sculpts, as being textures for the clients to interpret
[16:15]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't heard anything about crashing the viewer on logout -- but then I don't do much development on the viewer.
[16:16]	Ashiri Sands:	like "ooh, what are these big black balls" =^_^=
[16:16]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[16:16]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	o.0
[16:16]	xstorm Radek:	some one told me they see big balls just as they crashed
[16:16]	Arawn Spitteler	notes Rex's Turban
[16:16]	Patty1 Rosca:	balls
[16:16]	Sebastean Steamweaver	coughs.
[16:16]	xstorm Radek:	but they was on emarld
[16:17]	Rex Cronon:	if u wait a sec u will see is not a turban. lol
[16:17]	Patty1 Rosca:	omg emarld balls
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	When the sculpt texture data is not available then sculpt prims show up as spheres.
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	So it sounds like definitely a viewer problem.
[16:17]	Ashiri Sands:	or ellipsoids at least
[16:17]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Round shapes :P
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	Interesting that it renders without the sculpt data momentarily before it crashes.
[16:17]	xstorm Radek:	so it may be there old computer then ?
[16:18]	Arawn Spitteler	wonders if Sculpties are being used in place of Twisted Prims.
[16:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, I've had corrupted texture data crash my viewer befor.
[16:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Clearing the cache fixed it.
[16:18]	Patty1 Rosca:	**NEVAH********
[16:18]	Patty1 Rosca:	my inventory NEVAR!!! fully loads before crashing me
[16:19]	Andrew Linden:	Other news.... looks like I'll have one developer (Gulliver Linden) helping me fix bugs part-time for the next few weeks.
[16:19]	Arawn Spitteler	sees FPS 1.5
[16:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Awesome :D
[16:19]	Patty1 Rosca:	i been on for 4 hous stil missing 1/2 of my inventory
[16:19]	Techwolf Lupindo:	yea...does that mean a lag fix is on its way?
[16:19]	Andrew Linden:	So maybe we'll actually be able to fix some stuff in time for server-1.42
[16:19]	Techwolf Lupindo:	:-)
[16:20]	Patty1 Rosca:	hi simon
[16:20]	xstorm Radek:	yes i have seen inventory load problems too
[16:20]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[16:20]	xstorm Radek:	Hi Simon
[16:20]	Simon Linden:	Sorry to be late, had to pick up my RL car with a fixed tire
[16:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought that looked like Simon's Hat, but couldn't see his tag
[16:21]	Patty1 Rosca:	i always crash before the inventory ever loads
[16:21]	Ashiri Sands:	How big an inventory?
[16:21]	xstorm Radek:	Simon if Oskar gets trendone up on the test server i will let you run any test you wish on trendone in Aditi
[16:21]	Andrew Linden:	There is a new inventory transmission system that is partially deployed this week. They'll be expanding its deployment next week I think.
[16:21]	Patty1 Rosca:	well suppose to have 90K but only 21K loads
[16:22]	Kaluura Boa:	Gosh!
[16:22]	Patty1 Rosca:	4 hours into sl still not loading
[16:22]	Arawn Spitteler	should get around to slimming his inventory.
[16:22]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Andrew. I have two folders that got renamed to "New Folder" and I know I named them. I need to rename them again.
[16:22]	Andrew Linden	wonders if LL has talked about the inventory stuff in another channel yet.
[16:22]	Techwolf Lupindo:	There is stuff in them also, so I could figure out what they was supposted to be named.
[16:23]	DogWomble Dollinger:	andrew, not knowing the details of the inventory delivery, i would imagine the new system is likely to be faster and more reliable?
[16:23]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, supposedly it is faster, but they don't have all the details yet.
[16:23]	Patty1 Rosca:	should be
[16:23]	xstorm Radek:	what about cutting down on load time ?
[16:23]	Techwolf Lupindo:	WTH?!!?!, I got another one renamed to "New Folder"
[16:23]	xstorm Radek:	my inventory is still loading
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	There is a one problem with it... some behavior change of viewer-2 that causes it to try to download all inventory on login
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	whereas the old viewer would stretch out that download after successful login
[16:24]	Sebastean Steamweaver	has completely lost some inventory recently on alt accounts, even after clearing cache.
[16:24]	Patty1 Rosca:	when building and open inventory it freezes up
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	but I've only heard rumors about that -- it isn't a problem with the new inventory transmission system
[16:24]	xstorm Radek:	im only up to 91k of inventory still loading
[16:25]	Andrew Linden:	except that the new system is seeing spiked load on some logins
[16:25]	Andrew Linden:	or something like that -- I forget the details.
[16:25]	xstorm Radek:	can drop packets be the problem with inventory loading ?
[16:25]	Patty1 Rosca:	will the inventory ever return that is lost/never loaded
[16:26]	Andrew Linden:	yes xstorm. That is why the old system has to go -- it is more susceptible to dropped packets.
[16:26]	Andrew Linden:	Depends... there is such a thing as truly lost inventory.
[16:26]	Andrew Linden:	Clearing the cache should make everything download again
[16:26]	Patty1 Rosca:	i have a lot invested in my inventory
[16:26]	xstorm Radek:	the inventory is still there on the server just not loading with out errors and time outs i say ?
[16:27]	Simon Linden:	Right, it would depend if it's percieved loss because your viewer isn't showing it, vs real loss where the info is gone in the database
[16:27]	Arawn Spitteler	just brought FPS to 12, by not rendering avatars, for a factor of about seven, but the table also dissappeared.
[16:27]	Andrew Linden:	however... if you're suffering packet loss during the download of your inventory then you'll never get it all downloaded (with the old system).
[16:28]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	The inventory I lost, was consistent over 3 different viewers, and I cleared cache each time I switched.
[16:28]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, are you on old hardware? Are you using viewer2 or an older one?
[16:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	Viewer 2, but my hardware is about as old as Jesus
[16:28]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, that sounds like truly lost inventory -- I wonder if your separate viewers use separate cache directories.
[16:28]	xstorm Radek:	if it was gone on the data base it still show a tag or place holder but the info will tell you its missing on the data base like in the past on older SQL systems
[16:29]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Well, I cleared the cache a couple times on this viewer before trying others.
[16:29]	Andrew Linden:	that info is missleading: "missing from database" actually means "missing from asset system", I think.
[16:29]	Jonathan Yap:	Did you try looking on aditi to see if the copy of the inventory is there?
[16:29]	Simon Linden:	Yes, and saying "in the database" is a gross simplification because there are multiople DB servers and tables involved
[16:29]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[16:30]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Jonathan - my alt rarely logs onto aditi, so I doubt it.
[16:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	I recall there's an inventory fix, that involves loggin onto Aditi, and doing some operation right away.
[16:30]	xstorm Radek:	but i have had things in the inventory tell me its still there but no longer in the data base lol
[16:31]	Andrew Linden:	Actually Arawn that only works if the Aditi db is up to date. Unless you've asked to have your aditi account updated recently, it is probably out of date.
[16:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	It worked when I tried it.
[16:31]	xstorm Radek:	i had my account updated yester day :-)
[16:32]	xstorm Radek:	when we test on aditi we tend to have the accounts up to date
[16:32]	Andrew Linden:	huh. Well ok.
[16:32]	xstorm Radek:	;-)
[16:33]	Ashiri Sands:	I thought the db on Aditi was fairly recently updated... certainly my new alt was there
[16:33]	Arawn Spitteler	also wonders why his ARC is over 3,000: Is it time for ritual mention of SVC-22 and SVC-93, just to keep our hand in?
[16:33]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[16:33]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[16:33]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[16:33]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[16:33]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[16:33]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[16:33]	Jonathan Yap:	There was going to be a full copy of existing accounts over to aditi--maybe that has gone through.
[16:33]	Sebastean Steamweaver	deletes his left hip
[16:34]	xstorm Radek:	well i know of a Linden that i was shock to see at Oskars meeting over in Aditi
[16:35]	xstorm Radek:	:-)
[16:35]	Andrew Linden:	Which Linden would that be?
[16:35]	xstorm Radek:	Simon
[16:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Which is another Linden
[16:35]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:35]	Andrew Linden:	oh right, Which.
[16:35]	xstorm Radek:	true
[16:35]	xstorm Radek:	but poor simon was there
[16:36]	xstorm Radek:	having to put up with our mess
[16:36]	Simon Linden:	I've been there a few times, mostly lurking to hear what's going on
[16:37]	louise Ventris:	hi
[16:37]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[16:37]	xstorm Radek:	hi
[16:37]	Andrew Linden:	Hello louise.
[16:37]	DogWomble Dollinger:	hi louise
[16:37]	Throatwobbler Colinsgrove:	hello there
[16:37]	Simon Linden:	So 1.40 should be on Aditi very soon ... if you get on there, please check out region crossings
[16:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Lurker Linden, or Stalker Linden? :p
[16:38]	Simon Linden:	Lag should be better for those who are already in the region
[16:38]	Simon Linden:	Lurker :)
[16:38]	Andrew Linden:	Have they actually branched server-1.40 Simon?
[16:38]	Simon Linden:	It was supposed to happen this afternoon
[16:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Did they get those features they mentioned merged?
[16:39]	xstorm Radek:	lol Andrew did you think i was pulling your leg about 1.40 last time ?
[16:40]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	They said they couldn't say what the features were until after they were merged - I was getting a tad hopeful :)
[16:40]	xstorm Radek:	i think 1.40 and havok 7 will fix a lot of problems
[16:40]	Andrew Linden:	Aditi shows regions with 1.38.4 versions. I guess it isn't up there yet. But yeah, if they branched today then it should be on aditi (preview grid) next week.
[16:40]	Ardy Lay	really wants Mono 2.6.x
[16:40]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure what finally got merged in ... but there was a lot of activity this morning
[16:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver	imagines a delivery room bustling with doctors and nurses.
[16:41]	xstorm Radek:	soon Simon i think poor Osker is going over our list lol
[16:41]	xstorm Radek:	i need spleel check
[16:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver	blinks as Oskar suddenly appears in his imagination's delivery room.
[16:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	He was delivered by UPS
[16:42]	Simon Linden:	Nice trees
[16:42]	Liisa Runo:	trees ❤
[16:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Arawn, you just gave me my excuse to tell my children someday.
[16:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	"Well, you came by UPS. Your sisters came by FedEx and USPS."
[16:43]	xstorm Radek:	OMG!! them treees cost 1,435 to render
[16:43]	xstorm Radek:	and 24 prims
[16:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	We have object render cost?
[16:43]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	not the one's I'm rendering. I've got trees dialed all the way down.
[16:43]	xstorm Radek:	under edit linked
[16:44]	xstorm Radek:	ok 308 and 4 prims is better
[16:44]	xstorm Radek:	wow 185 and 3 prims
[16:45]	xstorm Radek:	thats great
[16:45]	Ashiri Sands:	got to lovge those fancy sculpts =^_^=
[16:45]	Sebastean Steamweaver	hates sculpts.
[16:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	When I stop editing, things dissappear. I hope I haven't trashed Simon's Hourse, the way it looks.
[16:46]	Simon Linden:	Looks fine to me
[16:46]	xstorm Radek:	im just pickey lol
[16:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sign still on an eisel? It shouldn't have anything to do, with my not rendering avatars.
[16:47]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, I heard today that you'll be working on the interestlist overhaul, along with James Linden.
[16:47]	Simon Linden:	Let's see ... I don't have any particular news ... still working on performance, and have more stuff that will go into 1.42
[16:48]	Simon Linden:	Recently did some work for "Baked textures" which won't really speed things up but will hopefully make rendering avatars more reliable
[16:49]	xstorm Radek:	Simon any news on scrips on AO's getting turn off and restarted on teleports and stopping mega prims from going in to other sim owners sims ?
[16:49]	Liisa Runo:	mega and normal prims
[16:50]	xstorm Radek:	true
[16:50]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	encroachment?
[16:50]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[16:50]	Simon Linden:	No, I"m not actively looking at that right now
[16:50]	Simon Linden:	There's an overhaul to the "VFS", which is the file system used by the server and viewer
[16:50]	Arawn Spitteler	found a house, across the tracks, in Cecropia, the other day, but don't think it involved Mega Prims
[16:51]	Simon Linden:	The server will get it's own now, which will work better with multiple regions on the same system by sharing the data more
[16:51]	Simon Linden:	Also looking at a few places where things are just slow ... leaving regions is one of them
[16:51]	xstorm Radek:	i have 2 people in another sim that keeps rezzing out a mega prim that bigger then 4 sims
[16:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	Been to Trendone? I think that might be viewer side Sculpty Excess
[16:51]	Simon Linden:	Also region crossings and TP ... it turns out we send a ton of data between systems, and it's pretty easy to shrink that to 1/10th the size
[16:52]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Very good to hear
[16:52]	Simon Linden:	Have to see if that's worth the CPU cost to compress it and get the bandwidth win
[16:52]	xstorm Radek:	and it blots out trendone off the mini map
[16:52]	DogWomble Dollinger:	great news on the tp data :)
[16:52]	Ashiri Sands:	very good, my usual method of logging out is a TP crash
[16:53]	Simon Linden:	So there's plenty of performance work to do, and fortunately managers are letting us do it :)
[16:53]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[16:53]	xstorm Radek:	lots of TP crash
[16:53]	Simon Linden:	yeah, the success rate is not that good
[16:53]	DogWomble Dollinger:	on the tp issue though, have there been any reports of people tping successfully, only to have another tp look like it's happening shortly after arrival?
[16:53]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yes
[16:53]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I've had that happen before
[16:54]	Jonathan Yap:	Me too
[16:54]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	And you get stuck in it for sometimes up to 4-5 minutes.
[16:54]	Rex Cronon:	i had that happen to me sometimes, dogwomble. but if i click cancel on second tp everything is ok
[16:54]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	And if you try to cancel, you get logged out.
[16:54]	DogWomble Dollinger:	yeah, i'm usually able to cancel it without problems
[16:54]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Usually when I try to cancel it, I get logged out. But it hasn't happened in a while.
[16:54]	DogWomble Dollinger:	just wondering if that's something that's common and whether that's goign to be something solved by reducing the data overhead
[16:54]	Simon Linden:	I've heard of TPs that seem to fail, and then when you try again a few times one of the previous ones seems to go through
[16:55]	xstorm Radek:	i never get to get out of a bad TP
[16:55]	DogWomble Dollinger:	sounds slightly different simon
[16:55]	DogWomble Dollinger:	to give you an example ... when arriving at the meeting here, i teleproted again, only to have my client try to teleprot again a few seconds later
[16:55]	Simon Linden:	I don't think there's one single problem that will be fixed by reducing the data size ... I'm not even certain it will help, since it requires more CPU work on both ends
[16:55]	xstorm Radek:	and if i do make the trip do to a bad TP i get stuck with no avatar just cam
[16:56]	Simon Linden:	yeah, that sounds like the handshake and dialog between viewer and the 2 sims got confused
[16:56]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, you're talking about just compression? or also culling out some "default" info to reduce size?
[16:56]	Simon Linden:	At a basic level just compression, but if we could reduce the data itself that would be good
[16:57]	Simon Linden:	I'm suspicious of the script memory ... we just package the whole chunk right now, which seems inefficient
[16:57]	xstorm Radek:	what happens to my avatar on a bad teleport ??? when all i am is just a cam ?
[16:57]	Ashiri Sands:	I'd rather have a message "Your Teleport can not be completed. Please try again in a few minutes" than a loggout
[16:57]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect there is a fair bit of default data that could be skipped... however I understood that most of our data was in scripts, so that wouldn't really help script-heavy attachments.
[16:57]	Simon Linden:	The logout happens when the first region thinks it's sent you to the next one, but somehow that doesn't work out. You end up in limbo and get logged out
[16:58]	xstorm Radek:	i have been stuck in limbo for up to 3 hours till i had to shut down
[16:59]	Ardy Lay:	I "dressed down", removed all attachments and HUDs and region crossing was nice and easy. Attachments, meaning prims and scripts do seem to be the big part of the delay.
[16:59]	Simon Linden:	if it doesn't fix itself in a few seconds you might as well log out
[16:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	I know the train from Wengen used to be an excellent place to crossing crash.
[16:59]	xstorm Radek:	lol gee thanks
[17:00]	Liisa Runo:	i know a place that is so full of temp rezzers that you go to limbo every time you cross in or out from that sim
[17:00]	Simon Linden:	There's one engineer looking at the code that packages up all that info on attachments and scripts ... that's definitely inefficient. It's essentially going from A to B to C, and would be faster if we just went from A to C
[17:01]	xstorm Radek:	i have seen a sim thats full of zero prim rezzers
[17:01]	Liisa Runo:	same thing
[17:01]	xstorm Radek:	its a furniture sim
[17:01]	xstorm Radek:	i crash in it every time
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	what's a zero prim rezzer?
[17:01]	xstorm Radek:	and can not tp out
[17:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	zero-prim rezzers or zero prim-rezzers?
[17:01]	Liisa Runo:	zero prim rezzer = temp rezzer
[17:02]	xstorm Radek:	but a zero prim rezzer tells the server and sim that a 200 prim item is just one prim
[17:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Temp Rezzers could be more efficient, if we had proto-prims, existing in sim as potential objects, to rez copies of.
[17:02]	Liisa Runo:	it just keeps re-rezzing stuff as temp, to cheat the prim count, to cheat money from LL, to ruin the sim, in some places you cant even walk cause of the lag
[17:02]	xstorm Radek:	giving the owner more prims to rez
[17:02]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Basically, they are object rezzers that repeatedly res something as a temp-on-rez prim
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	yup, to esceed parcel prim limits
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	s/esceed/exceed/
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	ah, ok. Yeah, I've seen wave generators, butterfly makers, etc doing that
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	Fish rezzers
[17:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Each Rz has to be imported from an Asset Server, rather than from a remembered object
[17:03]	xstorm Radek:	i shown one of them at this meeting 2 years back and it lag us
[17:03]	Techwolf Lupindo:	My thoughts on script limits. Give estate managers the tool to adjust the mem limit per avatar. Can't restrict by script count due to one script can hog up resorces. Use the existing failure mechizaiams in place to handle it. When an avatar does a regine cross or tp, check the limit before tp and if out of bounds, tp or regine cross fail. The failure is there allready, we get messages when sim is full. Don't every try to halt scripts, halted script still take up the meory, crashing the script will perm break objects.
[17:04]	Simon Linden:	Actually working on rezzing the same object multiple times is one of the items on my list ... kinda far down, but it would be good to make that more efficient
[17:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	It would seem vital for guns.
[17:04]	Xugu Madison:	Actually, a restrction by script count would also be useful to reduce threading overhead
[17:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	To be honest though, I find it funny so many people blame them. There are some legitimate uses I think, but if coded correctly they aren't that bad in lag. They aren't any worse than weapons which rez a lot more prims, a lot more quickly. Using temp rezzers to generate static entire builds? Yeah, I'm not in favor of that.
[17:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ever see a fairy hunt, in Siden?
[17:04]	Simon Linden:	Right, bullets are a perfect example
[17:05]	xstorm Radek:	Bullets are not the same as a zero temp rezzer
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	Uh, are we combining the fairy hunt and bullet conversations :)
[17:05]	xstorm Radek:	bullets are fine
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	?
[17:05]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	They aren't far removed there xstorm.
[17:05]	xstorm Radek:	i know
[17:05]	Techwolf Lupindo:	If avatar is allready in sim and tried to rez an object that exceeds it, rez fail. If object tried to rez an out-of-bounds object, rez fail. If an avatar tries to wear an out-of-limit item, "Can't attact due a pentding attament for that spot" failure.
[17:06]	xstorm Radek:	but when you see a full sim using them its bad
[17:06]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	The difference is, a zero prim rezzer works on a timer, and only rezzes something about every 30-60 seconds, whereas a gun runs a loop or on a control event that fires sometimes 30 in a matter of seconds or more.
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	bullets were one of the main motivators for the temp-on-rez feature. zero-rezzers are one of the unintended consequences
[17:06]	Rex Cronon:	to rez bullets an ave must hold down a mouse button, a temp rezer doesn't need anybody to hold down a button in order to rez things
[17:06]	Liisa Runo:	person who owns 400m2 of land can put 15K temp prims in it
[17:06]	xstorm Radek:	i seen full building on a 512 sqm plot of a 400 prim building
[17:07]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yeah, that kind of use I'm not in favor of.
[17:07]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	However, like I said, I do think there are legitimate uses that aren't laggy.
[17:07]	Liisa Runo:	sure, temp prims are usefull is many things
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to have to run. I've got some jira filing to do before I can go home.
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	have a good weekend everyone.
[17:08]	xstorm Radek:	and if a sim owner can buy a 16 sqm and stick a 200 prim building on it thats not right
[17:08]	Ashiri Sands:	cya Andrew
[17:08]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take care Andrew
[17:08]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I need to head out too.
[17:08]	DogWomble Dollinger:	you too andrew
[17:08]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Leaving for work in... 3 minutes.
[17:08]	xstorm Radek:	laterz andrew
[17:08]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take care all
[17:08]	Simon Linden:	I have to go too ... thanks everyone for coming
[17:08]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[17:08]	Ashiri Sands:	bye Simon
[17:08]	DogWomble Dollinger:	cya simon
[17:08]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon
[17:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Goodly Gathered.
[17:08]	Rex Cronon:	tc all of u that r leaving
[17:08]	xstorm Radek:	bye simon :-)
[17:08]	Simon Linden:	Bye all
[17:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Let's send the lindens out for donuts.
[17:09]	xstorm Radek:	no crashing sims on agni lol
[17:09]	Ashiri Sands:	=^_^=
[17:09]	Kaluura Boa:	Lets go and see Trendone... To crash a bit...
[17:09]	Simon Linden:	Happy hour :)
[17:09]	Liisa Runo:	ill go back to bed, nini
[17:09]	Kaluura Boa:	OK... Nini
[17:09]	xstorm Radek:	nini
[17:09]	Liisa whispers	nonsenses into Kaluura's ear.
[17:09]	Simon Linden:	FYI there may be some grid problems brewing, I'm just hearing some reports of problems
[17:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ever hear of Sukaru?
[17:09]	Ashiri Sands:	As long as crashing Trendone doesn't take Black Lion down =^_^=
[17:09]	xstorm Radek:	i have been seeing red sims on mini yes
[17:09]	DogWomble Dollinger:	what sort of probs simon, so we can be on the lookout
[17:10]	xstorm Radek:	thats not good
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	Not sure ... we had some internal servers drop out, but they seem to be coming back
[17:10]	xstorm Radek:	crap
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	Sounds like a network glitch, but that's pure guesswork
[17:10]	xstorm Radek:	ok sounds like bunker time
[17:10]	Ashiri Sands:	well, weekend's coming...
[17:11]	xstorm Radek:	i will get the fallout shelter stuff
[17:11]	xstorm Radek:	coffee
[17:11]	Ashiri Sands	laughs.
[17:11]	DogWomble Dollinger:	is now the time to start building the air raid shelters as a precaution?
[17:11]	DogWomble Dollinger	whispers: :P
[17:11]	xstorm Radek:	yes we have one
[17:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Grid Crash Protection Boxes
[17:11]	xstorm Radek:	we have that too lol
[17:12]	Xugu Madison:	I must run, take care all!
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[17:12]	xstorm Radek:	ok laterz
[17:12]	DogWomble Dollinger:	ok, catchya round xugu
[17:12]	Ashiri Sands:	cya
[17:12]	xstorm Radek:	we must go too
[17:12]	Simon Linden:	OK, bye for real this time :)

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